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Sims
2011-01-22, 03:08 PM
Kind of a what-if question but say I had Perfect Two-Weapon fighting and Improved Sunder. Does that mean I can make 2 sundering attempts?

Greenish
2011-01-22, 03:19 PM
One sunder attempt per attack. Obviously, having Perfect TWF gives you more attacks on a full attack, that you can use to try sundering.

Siosilvar
2011-01-22, 03:22 PM
You can make as many Sunder attempts as you have attacks to make them with.

HunterOfJello
2011-01-22, 03:33 PM
You can do the multiple sunders, unfortunately the sunders won't be as efficient. Using a two handed weapon to sunder gives a +4 and using a light weapon gives a -4, so your attempts are going to be weaker with two weapons than with a single two-handed weapon.

Also, since you have to use a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to do a sunder, you can't use a Rapier or Spiked Chain to sunder with if you were using Weapon Finesse (which often goes along with Two-Weapon fighting).

Sims
2011-01-22, 03:35 PM
Oh, well thanks guys! I guess I should take Monkey Grip and Quick Draw then.

Greenish
2011-01-22, 03:40 PM
Oh, well thanks guys! I guess I should take Monkey Grip and Quick Draw then.Monkey Grip doesn't do what you think it does.

Sims
2011-01-22, 03:49 PM
Monkey Grip doesn't do what you think it does.

Really? I was thinking it could let me have a large size category weapon (giving me a +4) and it could be 2 handed (another +4) stacked with the feat (improved sunder +4)

Am I wrong? If so, please tell me what to do. I'm still kinda a n00b.

Greenish
2011-01-22, 03:51 PM
Really? I was thinking it could let me have a large size category weapon (giving me a +4) and it could be 2 handed (another +4) stacked with the feat (improved sunder +4)Having large-sized weapons doesn't give any bonus to sunder, and Monkey Grip doesn't allow you to use a two-handed weapon with one hand.

[Edit]: You are talking about D&D 3.5, right?

HunterOfJello
2011-01-22, 04:03 PM
Strongarm Bracers allow you to do what people often think Monkey grip allows you to do, but that still doesn't help your sundering. It will, however, improve your damage some.

You don't get a bonus for using a two-handed weapon unless you're holding it in two hands.

The one feat that would improve your sundering would be Weapon Proficiency: Goliath Greathammer. The hammer does 1d12 damage as a medium weapon, 3d6 as a large weapon and it has a x4 crit multiplier. It also gives the wielder a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls when sundering weapons or shields.

The Combat Brute feat would also be good if you sunder often.

Sims
2011-01-22, 04:12 PM
Having large-sized weapons doesn't give any bonus to sunder, and Monkey Grip doesn't allow you to use a two-handed weapon with one hand.

[Edit]: You are talking about D&D 3.5, right?

Yes I am on 3.5
But my goal wasn't to wield a large size weapon in 1 hand. I was gonna scrap the two weapon sunder idea, and just use Quick Draw to a large (adamantine)Great Axe.

Greenish
2011-01-22, 04:18 PM
Yes I am on 3.5
But my goal wasn't to wield a large size weapon in 1 hand. I was gonna scrap the two weapon sunder idea, and just use Quick Draw to a large (adamantine)Great Axe.Well, Monkey Grip is a trap, it gives a couple of more damage for -2 penalty to attack (and, as noted, doesn't improve sundering).

Quick Draw can be replicated with 300 gp weapon crystal (least crystal of return, MIC).

Note though that by sundering, you're destroying your own loot. :smallcool:

AslanCross
2011-01-22, 05:50 PM
Sundering is like poisons: Impractical for players, but a lot of fun for DMs. :smallbiggrin:

OP: If you do want to take Improved Sunder, check out Combat Brute from Complete Warrior. You can get some mileage out of that feat (although Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper are still strictly better).

HunterOfJello
2011-01-22, 07:38 PM
Sundering is like poisons: Impractical for players, but a lot of fun for DMs. :smallbiggrin:




Haha. Pretty much.


In a campaign where the PCs are fighting mostly humanoids or hydras, then sundering can be an excellent tactic. If you can get an Adamantite weapon, then you can sunder apart an enemy's melee weapon, ranged weapon, shield, spell components pouch, quiver or any other important object on their person. This can be a great way to disable an opponent in a single turn and render them useless for the rest of a battle.

However, if you're fighting against all sorts of monsters as enemies, then sundering targets can quickly become non-existent.

Morquard
2011-01-22, 08:18 PM
Disadvantage of sundering:
Instead of looting the yummy +5 Sword of Dragon-Extermination that would come in very handy for the dragon endboss you now have a couple of non-magical broken sword pieces.

Popertop
2011-01-22, 11:53 PM
Advantage of smart sundering: You don't sunder the obviously magical loot. Sunder stuff your party doesn't need/care about.

AslanCross
2011-01-23, 12:15 AM
Advantage of smart sundering: You don't sunder the obviously magical loot. Sunder stuff your party doesn't need/care about.

I do agree with this, but sometimes it isn't clear which. Either one has the wizard cast Detect Magic, or ask the DM to describe if the weapons are glowing (1/3 of magical weapons do glow).

Flickerdart
2011-01-23, 12:40 AM
Is your opponent named "Goblin" and wielding "an axe"? Break it. Is your opponent "Gorgoroth the Unyielding" wielding a "massive blade as long as he is tall carved with pulsing black runes"? Keep it.

Psyren
2011-01-23, 12:46 AM
Binders and Psywars are great at sundering also. A Binder can bind Aym as early as 1st-level, getting both Improved Sunder for free and dealing double-damage to objects. Psywars can take the Destruction Mantle (also getting Imp. Sunder for free), then subtract 4 hardness on a special hit, and finally manifest Expansion to really pound the item in question.


Is your opponent named "Goblin" and wielding "an axe"? Break it. Is your opponent "Gorgoroth the Unyielding" wielding a "massive blade as long as he is tall carved with pulsing black runes"? Keep it.

The problem is that your anti-sundering build is now useless against Gorgoroth (unless you were smart and picked a melee class that wasn't a one-trick pony, like a Psywar or KotSS :smalltongue:)

nightwyrm
2011-01-23, 01:28 AM
Is your opponent named "Goblin" and wielding "an axe"? Break it. Is your opponent "Gorgoroth the Unyielding" wielding a "massive blade as long as he is tall carved with pulsing black runes"? Keep it.

The problem with this is that once PCs pass a certain level, it's more efficient to just kill humanoids that aren't important enough to have magic weapons.

Flickerdart
2011-01-23, 09:33 AM
I'm not saying Sunder is worth a damn, I'm saying you can usually tell what loot is worth keeping.

agentnone
2011-01-23, 11:37 AM
Katanas give an inate bonus to Sundering. If you do not take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use them, you have to use them with 2-hands and I believe you don't get the Sundering bonus. However, take the EWP Feat and you can use them one-handed and get the bonus to Sunder. Wield two of them for a penalty to hit, but you also get a decent amount of bonuses to Sundering. I haven't looked at them in a while, so my information may be a little off, but the gist of it is the Katana gives an added bonus to Sundering if you take the Exotic Weapon Feat.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-23, 11:42 AM
Since when do katanas give a bonus to sundering attempts? They're just renamed bastard swords, aren't they?

Greenish
2011-01-23, 01:20 PM
Since when do katanas give a bonus to sundering attempts? They're just renamed bastard swords, aren't they?That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bull excerment that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

And so forth…

woodenbandman
2011-01-23, 01:28 PM
Disarm is better than sundering, and disarm is really bad.

agentnone
2011-01-24, 02:43 AM
Since when do katanas give a bonus to sundering attempts? They're just renamed bastard swords, aren't they?

No, I'm pretty sure they get a bonus to sundering attempts. But you have to have the Exotic Weapon Proficency Feat with them to get it. I can't access any of the SRD pages or anything right now as I'm on my work computer and the sites are blocked. Though if memory serves me right, they also have a different damage rating and crit range. It's been a few months since I've looked at them. Wanted to play a Paladin in a friend's campaign that was going to be a sunder-monster himself. I'm trying to look through PDF versions of books I have to see if I can find it. If I come across it I'll post the stats and description for everyone.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-24, 07:51 AM
You must have remembered this in some kind of third-party source, because in any official D&D-supplement and rulebook, a katana is only a renamed bastard sword (sometimes already masterwork quality), and the exotic weapon proficiency only makes it that you don't get a penalty of -4 when wielding it with one hand, as is written in the SRD

You might have mixed up something, when whoever did that trick wielded the weapon two-handed (which you also can do with any other one-handed weapon), but for any sundering purpose, katanas (or bastard swords in that case) are suck-tastic weapons that do nothing extraordinarily.

agentnone
2011-01-24, 07:57 AM
You must have remembered this in some kind of third-party source, because in any official D&D-supplement and rulebook, a katana is only a renamed bastard sword (sometimes already masterwork quality), and the exotic weapon proficiency only makes it that you don't get a penalty of -4 when wielding it with one hand, as is written in the SRD

You might have mixed up something, when whoever did that trick wielded the weapon two-handed (which you also can do with any other one-handed weapon), but for any sundering purpose, katanas (or bastard swords in that case) are suck-tastic weapons that do nothing extraordinarily.

Nah, I read it on an SRD site a couple months back. We don't use 3rd party material in our group so it couldn't have come from there. I'm really stumped now. Have no idea where I read it. I'll try to find the source and post it here. Though it'll be awhile, can't access the SRD sites right now.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-24, 08:00 AM
That's what the SRD is saying about bastard swords

Sword, Bastard

A bastard sword is too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

And this are the stats of a bastard sword
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Sword, bastard 35 gp 1d8 1d10 19-20/×2 — 6 lb. Slashing

There is absolutely nothing that gives it any kind of advantage when sundering.

agentnone
2011-01-24, 08:05 AM
I know how a Bastard Sword works. :smalltongue: I'm jsut saying I read somewhere about a Katana as an actual weapon that gives a bonus to sunder attemptes. But you can only benefit from the bonus if you take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Like I said, I'll try to find it cuz you, and myself, got me all sorts of curious now. I know I read it somewhere cuz I was going to make a Paladin and use my Human bonus Feat to take the Exotic Weapon feat. I'll try to do some looking and see what I can find.

Greenish
2011-01-24, 08:17 AM
I'm jsut saying I read somewhere about a Katana as an actual weapon that gives a bonus to sunder attemptes.Well, DMG page 145 says that it's just a more expensive MW bastard sword. OA page 71 says katana is a masterwork bastard sword.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-24, 08:24 AM
Then you definitely read it from some other source than what Wizards of the Coast published. Because in every book written by them, a katana is a masterwork bastard sword. Examples given are Complete Champion with the Samurai base class (one of the most horribly weak classes), the Dungeon Master's Guide tells on page 144 to just treat it as a masterwork bastard sword when doing asian-themed campaigns, and even Oriental Adventures (a 3.0-sourcebook) says that a katana is only a masterwork bastard sword.

I hope you didn't read that on the "D&D-wiki", because that site has homebrew-stuff in it.

agentnone
2011-01-24, 08:32 AM
I hope you didn't read that on the "D&D-wiki", because that site has homebrew-stuff in it.

Yeah, I just found the site, dandwiki. I am aware of that site having homebrew stuff in it. But from what I had read on there in the past it had also had the actualy WotC stuff. Used the site mostly as a reference when working on my campaign stuff while I was at work. lol

Greenish
2011-01-24, 08:36 AM
Found it: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Katana_(3.5e_Equipment) :smallbiggrin:As DE mentioned, dandwiki often fails to label homebrew accordingly.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-24, 08:36 AM
And yes, as we all correctly surmised, it's a homebrew from the non-SRD-site.

MeeposFire
2011-01-24, 04:39 PM
I remember when katana threads got so bad on the WotC website that they banned katana threads completely for a long while. Long live the uranium bacon katana!

Katanas have been masterwork bastard swords in oriental adventures, rokugon setting, and complete warrior. I am not sure if it has been placed anywhere else (maybe sword and fist).

Sims
2011-01-24, 06:18 PM
I do think Katanas should have a higher crit. range like the Falchion. Or a higher multiplier. But mostly cause of watching anime lol. So nvm.

Benejeseret
2011-01-24, 09:52 PM
Two questions/thoughts:


1. If using a double-weapon such as say, a quarterstaff, with twf to get the light bonus without being light (actually a 2hw) all attacks should get the +4 from 2hw....yes?


2. What are the official rules about sundering Staves and Wands (or other stored activators?)
I believe a common perception (or at least mine, but now I cannot find srd/support) is that the broken wand would discharge in an explosion.
Could a Spellthief purposely attempt sunders, set off explosion, improved evasion avoid damage, and absord a bucketload of spell power?