PDA

View Full Version : Your Thoughts on Entangle [3.5]



cowsay
2011-01-22, 04:03 PM
This is my first post . . . if I'm breaching some protocol please don't hesitate to let me know.

Our group has been playing together since 3rd edition emerged. It's a good group with lots of personalities, professions, and experiences. We've become good friends over the years and the gaming has been great. Yesterday, for the first time in all those years, we had a serious blow up after a great 7 hour session of party v. party (something we do a few times a year). The crux of the ferocious debate was around Entangle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entangle.htm). (I should acknowledge that I took no part in the debate--I just watched it unfold from a mild discussion about the spell into a shouting match among 8 of the 10 of us.)

The debate fluxuated around whether Entangle was "broken", "just fine", "overpowered", "lopsided", "situational", "the most powerful first level spell period", "extremely good, but so rarely used in our/most campaigns as to be not a problem", "something that should be nerfed", and "very overrated".

I am now curious what people in this community think on this question that so agitated our group's harmony. With the hope that I am not stirring up a hornets nest here, I would appreciate knowing member's thoughts on Entangle.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-22, 04:13 PM
Situationally very strong.
The issue is it is too vague of where it can be used. Like underground you can argue roots attack, but some DMs are stiff on that issue.

I wouldn't say overpowered though.

jguy
2011-01-22, 04:13 PM
Low levels its a game breaker if allowed to get off, especially if you use it on a group of ranged attackers. -4 to hit is harsh. At high levels where everyone can make their saves, it prevents charging and such, allowing the casters more time to pump out spells.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-22, 04:13 PM
It is a very useful spell, but also situational; the way I see it, it gets to be, perhaps, slightly more powerful than other spells of its level because of its restrictions, namely: it requires plant life, so can really only be used in natural, outdoor environments, and also that it does not discriminate (IIRC) between you and your allies, and your enemies.

Tyger
2011-01-22, 04:16 PM
There is no question that Entangle is one of the top first level spells out there, particularly for Druids. It loses some of its power if the DM is "realistic", i.e. there is no vegetation in a lot of places for it to function (though be warned that there are RAW legal ways of getting around that quite handily).

Additionally, unless Heightened, the Reflex save eventually becomes relatively easy to beat, and by mid levels, that DC 20 STR or Escape Artist (which means STR really, who has ranks in Escape Artist?) is a low water mark.

Of course, in some instances, it is of lesser value. Flying creatures are generally out of it's range and a lot of critters don't care if they can't move, and can attack the party just fine from range (though ware that -4 to DEX and -2 to To-Hit that the entangled condition imposes).

That said, its a great spell, our group's druid player has it on his "perma-memorized" list, and it has saved our butts more times than I care to think about. I wouldn't put it in the "broken" category at all, but it is definitely one of the top first level spells in the game.

WarKitty
2011-01-22, 04:16 PM
How many DM's enforce the restrictions? I'd probably strangle mine if he tried to. :smallbiggrin:

Tyger
2011-01-22, 04:22 PM
How many DM's enforce the restrictions? I'd probably strangle mine if he tried to. :smallbiggrin:

I think that if there is no reasonable vegetation around, then it would be not only RAW, but also very reasonable and realistic, for the DM to rule that it just doesn't work there. The spell is specific that it requires vegetation - inside the tavern, in the bowels of the lightless dungeon, on a ship, a wide city street... where is the vegetation that is grabbing people?

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-22, 04:24 PM
How many DM's enforce the restrictions? I'd probably strangle mine if he tried to. :smallbiggrin:

Hmm, the restrictions are a pretty major part of the spell though; not enforcing them would be a pretty big handwave on the DM's part.

Edit: Dirty, stinking, ninjas!

WarKitty
2011-01-22, 04:28 PM
I think that if there is no reasonable vegetation around, then it would be not only RAW, but also very reasonable and realistic, for the DM to rule that it just doesn't work there. The spell is specific that it requires vegetation - inside the tavern, in the bowels of the lightless dungeon, on a ship, a wide city street... where is the vegetation that is grabbing people?

Who adventures in places with vegetation? Everything I've played has been either indoors or underground. Maybe one session in the woods, but the party usually finds a way around that. You might as well just ban the spell.

cowsay
2011-01-22, 04:32 PM
It is a very useful spell, but also situational; the way I see it, it gets to be, perhaps, slightly more powerful than other spells of its level because of its restrictions, namely: it requires plant life, so can really only be used in natural, outdoor environments, and also that it does not discriminate (IIRC) between you and your allies, and your enemies.

There was considerable debate about how the spell actually worked, in part along the lines you suggest here and in part opposed to your interpretation. Some felt that as long as there were some lichen or roots within the area of the spell that the spell worked on any creatures within that area. So it might work, some said, underground or, as one person said, if there were potted plants in the room.

Tyger
2011-01-22, 04:34 PM
Who adventures in places with vegetation? Everything I've played has been either indoors or underground. Maybe one session in the woods, but the party usually finds a way around that. You might as well just ban the spell.

Which is why its a first level spell. If your DM(s) are waving that significant restriction, then yes, I would place the spell in the "broken" category. As written, its powerful. Letting it work against the clear wording of the spell would render it far, far more versatile and thus worthy of a boost in level... like maybe third. After all, it is a bigger spread than Evards, has a longer range and has the same basic power, arguably greater as it imposes restrictions on those within it that Evard's does not, really just lacking the damage component.

cowsay
2011-01-22, 04:37 PM
There is no question that Entangle is one of the top first level spells out there, particularly for Druids.

Would you be willing to expand on this point a bit? There were widely ranging opinions in our group. One player said that it was hands down the best spell in the game at first level. A couple of others thought it was in a handful of elite first level core spells. Others thought the intermittent opportunities to use the spell made it most useful for druids, who could at least Summon Nature's Ally when they'd prepared it. The players who like druids most in our group said it
was usually the first spell they'd opt out of to cast SNA I. Nonetheless, both said they prepare it almost every day and sometimes more than once. What makes this such a good spell that some people think it is the best spell or among the best first level spells in the game?

Tyger
2011-01-22, 04:38 PM
There was considerable debate about how the spell actually worked, in part along the lines you suggest here and in part opposed to your interpretation. Some felt that as long as there were some lichen or roots within the area of the spell that the spell worked on any creatures within that area. So it might work, some said, underground or, as one person said, if there were potted plants in the room.

The "potted plants in the room" part would not work per RAW. The Entangle spell merely imposes the entangled condition, which states that it impedes movement "but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force". A potted plant, unless it is one big damned pot, does not meet that requirement.

WarKitty
2011-01-22, 04:39 PM
Which is why its a first level spell. If your DM(s) are waving that significant restriction, then yes, I would place the spell in the "broken" category. As written, its powerful. Letting it work against the clear wording of the spell would render it far, far more versatile and thus worthy of a boost in level... like maybe third. After all, it is a bigger spread than Evards, has a longer range and has the same basic power, arguably greater as it imposes restrictions on those within it that Evard's does not, really just lacking the damage component.

What control spell would you replace it with? The druid list simply doesn't have that much in the way of control at first level, other than the mostly-useless fog cloud.

I've also found that at level 3 and 4, even low-level enemies can make their saves about half the time. Hardly game-breaking.

*sigh* I guess it's one of those things - I usually pick a theme for my divine casters, instead of just picking top spells, because it doesn't make sense to me that he always knows all those spells. I guess I'm running up against "casters suck at low levels" again.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-22, 04:42 PM
There was considerable debate about how the spell actually worked, in part along the lines you suggest here and in part opposed to your interpretation. Some felt that as long as there were some lichen or roots within the area of the spell that the spell worked on any creatures within that area. So it might work, some said, underground or, as one person said, if there were potted plants in the room.

Lichen seems highly iffy, given that it's a relatively flat fungus, but living roots and potted plants are probably more within reason. The spell says
"Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine..., also the spell's area is "Plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread"; It seems to be pretty much up to the DM whether it works given the available materials, or for example, if the area is modified based on the available plants. The spell description even notes that DMs can modify the effects of the spell based on the nature of the plants.

Tyger
2011-01-22, 04:48 PM
Would you be willing to expand on this point a bit? There were widely ranging opinions in our group. One player said that it was hands down the best spell in the game at first level. A couple of others thought it was in a handful of elite first level core spells. Others thought the intermittent opportunities to use the spell made it most useful for druids, who could at least Summon Nature's Ally when they'd prepared it. The players who like druids most in our group said it
was usually the first spell they'd opt out of to cast SNA I. Nonetheless, both said they prepare it almost every day and sometimes more than once. What makes this such a good spell that some people think it is the best spell or among the best first level spells in the game?


Because in the conditions where it works, it can dramatically alter the combat. Ten raging orc warriors in its spread become pincushions if they didn't have ranged weapons, and even if they do, they are less likely to hit with their throwing axes (or whatever) owing to the -4 to hit on ranged attacks, and far more likely to get hit, with that -2 to to AC they are suffering under. And its spread is sooooo huge.

Forty foot radius, and castable at long range??? If you manage to spot the ambushers hiding in that copse of trees one hundred feet ahead of you, you can instantly take them out of the fight... it is a really good spell. But only if you are outdoors and / or in an area full of vegetation. Useless in most of the desert, all but useless in your average dungeon, etc. But a druid in the forest with this can change the face of the combat easily.

cowsay
2011-01-22, 04:50 PM
Of course, in some instances, it is of lesser value. Flying creatures are generally out of it's range and a lot of critters don't care if they can't move, and can attack the party just fine from range (though ware that -4 to DEX and -2 to To-Hit that the entangled condition imposes).


There was some debate on this point as well. That is, that the 40-foot radius spread could affect creatures in all three dimensions, especially in a place with tall vegetation or trees or vines, etc. So, one player argued, this spell gets its full potential in the forest.

This line of thinking led to considerable debate about whether the plants within the 40-foot radius (i.e., targets within the area) can entangle any creature within the sphere or only those in close proximity to the affected plants. (For instance, could a tree/bush planted in the center of a stone pavilion affect any creature within the space, etc.). The vehemence of these particular interpretations was staggering.

Volos
2011-01-22, 04:54 PM
Entangle is an amazing spell. Once I ruled that the druid could use plant growth to basically widen the spell's effect, and ended up regretting it. The druid then casted blight, killing all the entangling roots and vines. The wizard followed with a fireball, burning the entire group of undead that was attacking. ...never again.

Branching into entangling effects, the most effective one that I have seen so far, outside of the spell Entangle itself, was Entangling Exhalation from Races of The Dragon. Now I know what you're thinking, how is this related? It is a use of entangled condition that not only is easy to direct attack your foes only, but does damage at the same time. Any Half-Dragon can take Dragon Breath from Races of The Dragon to be able to breath more often than once a day. Extangling Exhalation allows him to not only damage his foes, but keep them tied up while he is busy doing something else (like waiting for his next breath to come back). Yes, he is doing half damage to entangle, but that forces spellcasters he hits to make high concentration checks to cast anything and keeps the fast moving melee types from charging. It takes, on average, the same amount of time for his breath weapon to recharge as it does for the entangled effect to wear off. In short, he can just spam breath weapon untill whatever is infront of him is not infront of him anymore.

cowsay
2011-01-22, 04:59 PM
Because in the conditions where it works, it can dramatically alter the combat. Ten raging orc warriors in its spread become pincushions if they didn't have ranged weapons, and even if they do, they are less likely to hit with their throwing axes (or whatever) owing to the -4 to hit on ranged attacks, and far more likely to get hit, with that -2 to to AC they are suffering under. And its spread is sooooo huge.

Forty foot radius, and castable at long range??? If you manage to spot the ambushers hiding in that copse of trees one hundred feet ahead of you, you can instantly take them out of the fight... it is a really good spell. But only if you are outdoors and / or in an area full of vegetation. Useless in most of the desert, all but useless in your average dungeon, etc. But a druid in the forest with this can change the face of the combat easily.

Thanks for this. I see your points. The spell is MUCH easier to discuss, it seems, when we are speaking of an area full of vegetation.

I also think that it is hard, given the variety of spells at first level, to say that this is THE best first level spell. It is certainly a great spell for the reasons you've described: range, large area, duration, failed save still has an effect, ability to adjust the size of the area (at least on the ground), the power of the controlling effects of the spell (especially at lower levels). Nonetheless, it strikes me that there are other VERY powerful spells more attuned to other circumstances. It strikes me that the most reliable use of entangle is to escape, at least that's what I was thinking during the debate last night. (It is kind of funny that no one else brought that up. I think the rangers I've played have used the spell most effectively for that; although the pincushion tactic has also been useful.)

Tyger
2011-01-22, 05:15 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't say it is "THE best" first level spell, that would depend on a few factors, not the least of which is which books are included. But its a damned good spell, in a particular set of circumstances. In the forest, its scary good. In town/dungeon, nah, I'll memorize Faerie Fire or Produce Flame instead.

Akal Saris
2011-01-22, 05:58 PM
Druids don't have a lot of other game-changing 1st level spells, so I can see entangle being prepared often.

If I had a low-level 3.5 druid, I'd prepare entangle, aspect of the wolf, sandblast, wall of smoke, and enrage animal in his 1st level slots, with scrolls for faerie fire, obscuring mist, and speak with animals, and wands for spells like endure elements, produce flame, longstrider, snake's swiftness, and lesser vigor/cure light wounds.

AslanCross
2011-01-22, 06:15 PM
Situationally very strong.
The issue is it is too vague of where it can be used. Like underground you can argue roots attack, but some DMs are stiff on that issue.

I wouldn't say overpowered though.

I'm of this opinion as well. It's awfully powerful if you've got plants underneath, but the DM's got to cede you the point that there are plants at all available.

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 06:29 PM
Nonetheless, both said they prepare it almost every day and sometimes more than once. What makes this such a good spell that some people think it is the best spell or among the best first level spells in the game?

Battlefield Control, mostly. It's got the best ability to control one's enemies movements, debuff them, and allow for advantageous attacking of caught foes by anyone with a ranged attack without having one's vision blocked by fog like with most of the other 1st level BC spells.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-22, 06:35 PM
What control spell would you replace it with? The druid list simply doesn't have that much in the way of control at first level, other than the mostly-useless fog cloud.

I've also found that at level 3 and 4, even low-level enemies can make their saves about half the time. Hardly game-breaking.

*sigh* I guess it's one of those things - I usually pick a theme for my divine casters, instead of just picking top spells, because it doesn't make sense to me that he always knows all those spells. I guess I'm running up against "casters suck at low levels" again.

Frostburn added Ice Slick, grease spell but ice based.

Pentachoron
2011-01-22, 06:42 PM
Who adventures in places with vegetation? Everything I've played has been either indoors or underground. Maybe one session in the woods, but the party usually finds a way around that. You might as well just ban the spell.

My group is outdoors often, probably about equal to how often we're inside or in a dungeon. I assumed that was the same for most parties. I find entangle to be useful when the melee members of the party stop to think first, otherwise I just hit them with it too

Yahzi
2011-01-22, 06:46 PM
Low levels its a game breaker
Yep.

One entangle + a handful of 0th level mooks with bows = uber. Not only does Entangle jack your chances of shooting back, it makes you easier to hit.

If both sides can cast Entangle, the encounter usually involves a lot of feinting and retreating until somebody is finally out of the spell. Which, admittedly, is kinda cool.

But it's the uberest 1st level spell ever (well except for Charm Person). People don't realize that because most characters spend their entire adventuring careers indoors.

cowsay
2011-01-22, 06:49 PM
But it's the uberest 1st level spell ever (well except for Charm Person). People don't realize that because most characters spend their entire adventuring careers indoors.

"Uberist"? Can you talk more about this?

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-22, 06:53 PM
I wouldn't say it is *THE* best 1st level spell, but it is certainly one of a handful which I would make sure to have prepared, if I was able to, and I knew I was going somewhere with vegetation.

It's a Save or Screwed, and Even if you DO Save, you're still Nerfed spell. As long as there is vegetation around.

It's handy. It's useful. It's not particularly game-breaking unless the GM lets it be. If all you have are clumps of melee-only threats that stay together and have poor Reflex saves. Then yes, it's probably going to be more powerful than if you are caught in an ambush by rogues with shortbows spread out all over.

In fact, I've seen poor uses of Entangle, which actually hampered the party, because they Entangled the opponent casters. Who either made their saves, or simply didn't care because they had high enough Concentration checks to ignore the problem. But trying to get to them to take them down...

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 06:54 PM
"Uberist"? Can you talk more about this?

As in the most uber or bestest.

As for the other part, well, there's not many plants in most dungeons.
Area: Plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread

So it kinda puts a damper on the spell being used if one is doing a more traditional dungeon delving sort of game.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-22, 06:56 PM
As in the most uber or bestest.

As for the other part, well, there's not many plants in most dungeons.

So it kinda puts a damper on the spell being used if one is doing a more traditional dungeon delving sort of game.

Roots and fungus are plants...

ericgrau
2011-01-22, 06:59 PM
Let's see. It looks extremely powerful outdoors, and then only if your party doesn't have melee because it will hurt them just as much. OTOH it's dismissable so as long as you only hit some of your enemies your allies can pick off the remaining, then you dismiss it, then your allies pick off what was entangled. Unless the foe has archers and casters, then it's just a weak debuff that they'll probably save against anyway.

So... ya, great control spell but only outdoors, only on big maps, only if you know what you're during and only if the enemy is using melee. Seems fair for a first level spell, but given how many ways it can go awesome or become useless I can see why opinions vary so much on this. A DM that sends a variety of enemies (as he always should) shouldn't have any problems with it. And if your campaign is underground, then it's your fault for choosing a druid.

WarKitty
2011-01-22, 07:05 PM
Let's see. It looks extremely powerful outdoors, and then only if your party doesn't have melee because it will hurt them just as much. OTOH it's dismissable so as long as you only hit some of your enemies your allies can pick off the remaining, then you dismiss it, then your allies pick off what was entangled. Unless the foe has archers and casters, then it's just a weak debuff that they'll probably save against anyway.

So... ya, great control spell but only outdoors, only on big maps, only if you know what you're during and only if the enemy is using melee. Seems fair for a first level spell, but given how many ways it can go awesome or become useless I can see why opinions vary so much on this. A DM that sends a variety of enemies (as he always should) shouldn't have any problems with it. And if your campaign is underground, then it's your fault for choosing a druid.

A lot of DM's don't like to give away the type of challenges in the campaign beforehand.

Greenish
2011-01-22, 07:16 PM
Roots and fungus are plants...Fungi aren't plants. They're fungi.

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 07:20 PM
A lot of DM's don't like to give away the type of challenges in the campaign beforehand.

Indeed, though it's still fairly common for DMs to give some manner of headsup if there's going to be an environmental focus. I'd give it about a 50-50 chance going into a group cold whether it'd be let on or not.

ericgrau
2011-01-22, 07:27 PM
Ya the DM usually at least gives the gist of the setting. At worst, assuming you know anything at all, you might be surprised with mixed above-ground and below-ground. Unless you come in totally cold ya. Types of monsters are a different story, and then ya you should expect a mix or at least totally unknown types. Then the spell should be neither overpowered nor underpowered unless the DM is bad at sending different kinds of foes.


Fungi aren't plants. They're fungi.


For purposes of spells and other special effects, all slimes, molds, and fungi are treated as plants.

Silly man, keep your science out of my D&D :smalltongue:.

WarKitty
2011-01-22, 07:36 PM
Ya the DM usually at least gives the gist of the setting. At worst, assuming you know anything at all, you might be surprised with mixed above-ground and below-ground. Unless you come in totally cold ya. Types of monsters are a different story, and then ya you should expect a mix or at least totally unknown types. Then the spell should be neither overpowered nor underpowered unless the DM is bad at sending different kinds of foes.



Silly man, keep your science out of my D&D :smalltongue:.

See, it doesn't even have to be an environmental focus in order to render entangle obsolete. So far we've had one desert, one underground cave system, one city street, and two indoor settings. Entangle doesn't work in any of those.

Sr.medusa
2011-01-22, 07:39 PM
Oh, entrangle is really cool, and it can be silly (Explosive Entrangle? The Green Fireball? Greenpeace Ecoterrorism Druids?)

ericgrau
2011-01-22, 07:40 PM
Ok, or mixed whatever terrain could be unexpected. But at least if the DM says "This is a dessert campaign" or "this is an urban setting" you're prepared. Otherwise most likely the setting will be mixed and the spell (and many other druid spells/abilities) will be sometimes useful, sometimes not. Or if it's not any of those (either known or mixed) then it probably means the DM told the PCs nothing about the setting, as those are fairly basic things.

Mando Knight
2011-01-22, 07:44 PM
But at least if the DM says "This is a dessert campaign" or "this is an urban setting" you're prepared.

Indeed. Unless you're fighting on strawberry shortcake or something, desserts are a fairly difficult terrain to find plants on, unless you want to count processed grains and such...

Togo
2011-01-22, 07:53 PM
I cast entangle on a regular basis even now the party is above 15th level. That suggests it's too good.

Forget actually entangling people. It has a huge area of effect and halves the enemies movement within that area, no save. Against mindless or somewhat stupid creatures you can use it to split them into two groups, against anything without ranged attacks you can use it to gain the party an extra round for ranged attacks or buffs.

Sure, no plants, no effect, but that's a problem for druids in general.

If you want to nerf it, change the wording to be more like Briar web (Spell compendium), so that people ignore all the effects on a successful save, not just the entanglement.

ericgrau
2011-01-22, 07:55 PM
Eh I think your DM uses too much non-flying corporeal normal speed melee. At least switch to sleet storm for half movement, works anywhere, no save, grease, no vision, puts out mundane fires... really there's little that can't be solved with liberal application of sleet storm.

cowsay
2011-01-22, 08:12 PM
As in the most uber or bestest.

As for the other part, well, there's not many plants in most dungeons.

I know what you meant by "uberest". But I had hoped you'd expand on why you think this spell is the best or among the best.

Would you interpret the spell as applying throughout its area, that is affecting creatures throughout the area, even if there weren't plants located throughout the area. One of the players in our group felt that so long as the condition of plants being in the area was met, then any creatures within the area would be affected by the spell?

Mando Knight
2011-01-22, 08:27 PM
One of the players in our group felt that so long as the condition of plants being in the area was met, then any creatures within the area would be affected by the spell?

That is the RAW effect of the spell, yes. Even a single daffodil becomes a horrid mess of entangling vines when exposed to the spell.

Warlawk
2011-01-22, 08:36 PM
Who adventures in places with vegetation? Everything I've played has been either indoors or underground. Maybe one session in the woods, but the party usually finds a way around that. You might as well just ban the spell.

For what it's worth, our games are the exact opposite. Dungeon crawls and the like are maybe 1 in 10 adventures. We do sometimes have town based stuff as well, but most of our games tend to be largely outdoor based for the actual adventure sites.

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 08:38 PM
I know what you meant by "uberest". But I had hoped you'd expand on why you think this spell is the best or among the best. I already did, I said that I felt it was one of the better level one spells due to number of things it did in regards to battlefield control and how battlefield control as a discipline/focus/goal to which spells are tools is the most powerful magical tactic.

Don't know about the guy who used the term "uberest" in the first place though.


Would you interpret the spell as applying throughout its area, that is affecting creatures throughout the area, even if there weren't plants located throughout the area. One of the players in our group felt that so long as the condition of plants being in the area was met, then any creatures within the area would be affected by the spell?

If I wanted to figure out the precise distribution of plants in the area, I might go to that level of detail, say, if I was worried about ti for a boss fight or other plot-critical event, but otherwise... area is area.

ShriekingDrake
2011-01-22, 09:06 PM
It's a great spell. I use it all the time; at least when in the outdoors. I don't know that I'd call it the BEST spell at first level, but it is well worth taking because of the myriad advantages it can give in the right circumstances. Perhaps not as enabling of creativity as grease, but it still affords a lot of flexibility. I would not say it is broken, even at first level. But I agree that it scales somewhat well in that I do use it at higher levels from time to time, especially when I'm dealing with large numbers of cannon fodder troops.

cowsay
2011-01-22, 10:06 PM
I already did, I said that I felt it was one of the better level one spells due to number of things it did in regards to battlefield control and how battlefield control as a discipline/focus/goal to which spells are tools is the most powerful magical tactic.

Don't know about the guy who used the term "uberest" in the first place though.

If I wanted to figure out the precise distribution of plants in the area, I might go to that level of detail, say, if I was worried about ti for a boss fight or other plot-critical event, but otherwise... area is area.

Sorry about that. I accidentally conflated you two. You did indeed give me a thoughtful assessment of why Entangle is powerful. And I thank you for that.

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 10:10 PM
Sorry about that. I accidentally conflated you two. You did indeed give me a thoughtful assessment of why Entangle is powerful. And I thank you for that.

Well, I wouldn't say it was thoughtful, more of an abstract.

I believe The Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards: being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) and Treantmonk's guide to Wizards: being GOD (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God) cover a bit more about the relative merits of Battlefield Control, since I was a bit vague on that if you're not all that familiar with the main-line sentiments in regards to it.

Heliomance
2011-01-22, 10:17 PM
It's a beautiful spell. Let us put the beat down on a LBEG a few weeks ago. He had a Phantom Steed, we had a wand of Entangle. Cut his movement down from 160 feet every round to the much more manageable 80 feet every round, as we tried to chase him down.

Sitzkrieg
2011-01-23, 01:05 AM
It might be situational, but it's such a complete game changer in the low levels that I would definitely consider it among the very best 1st level core spells. It's the sort of spell (like Charm Person) that might not be considered 'completely broken', but certainly overshadows the rest of the party so hard that it makes them feel lousy. At least between maybe levels 1-6, a DC 20 Str check is no joke for the majority of mooks, and can essentially end encounters by itself.

This spell came up with my group recently, in a level 4 adventure in which the spell completely shut down a group of six or seven goblins in round one, and the rest of the party just stood outside the ring of plants with slings and arrows. What was irritating is that the barbarian and rogue were built for melee range, but ended up spending all their time doing lousy ranged attacks. Also, the combat was long and boring, because the enemies didn't do anything except fail Str checks and occasionally move a few feet, and the party stood in an arc and missed a whole bunch. No fun for anyone.

It's not a typical 'broken' spell like Gate, which would allow the party to do incredible things they wouldn't be able to achieve otherwise. In our case, without Entangle, we still would have won the combat. What it did was make an interesting encounter into a very boring one, and make it painfully clear that the barbarian's and rogue's contributions to the party were entirely secondary to the druid's.

WarKitty
2011-01-23, 01:16 AM
See, my group collectively calls entangle "that stupid spell" because it NEVER WORKS. Seriously, we've had one battle where it actually helped. Other than that, either everything makes the save, or it ends up messing up us more than them. Usually the latter, but sometimes both.

ericgrau
2011-01-23, 07:56 AM
^ This is what I mean. It's a lousy DM that only sends melee monsters. There at least should have been a few ranged goblins, or ranged backup weapons among so many. Heck goblins are -2 str, +2 dex, why again would they have a melee tendency? Eh then again maybe it's a group thing if the PCs had no archers either. They're a huge tactical advantage even if you lose a small amount of damage. The rogue should at least use a bow in round 1 while they're flat-footed. In one group I've been in there are special fights all the time and they have a hard time convincing anyone to play the melee.

And then the very next post it's the complete opposite b/c the monsters can avoid it and the PCs can't handle it. There's a lot of "it depends" on entangle and I think variety is what keeps it balanced. Don't be all melee all wilderness (nor the opposite)... wait why would that happen in the first place when you can ambush from the abundant cover far out of melee range? Ya, PCs seem to be taking advantage of some tactical ignorance too.

Sitzkrieg
2011-01-24, 12:05 AM
While I concede to the point above in general, by-the-book goblins carry morningstars and javelins, and the javelins were all used up by the end of round two. In addition, those caught by entangle do take a -4 penalty on ranged attacks. It's a fair point that the spell is situational, but at least for us it made the Druid look much too good.

Volos
2011-01-24, 01:49 AM
What if you're on a boat or in the dead of winter? Those would both be fairly plantless situations. But no need to fear, plant growth is here! Cast plant growth on the collection of grass you keep in your back pocket and you too can entangle everything in sight. Entangle your foes! Entangle your friends! Entangle the animals of the forest that you are supposed to protect! Entangle the King! You can entangle everything. And what's more, Entangle is 100% kid proof and child safe. (Disclaimer, do not entangle children, they tend to get eaten by awakened animals with levels in ranger) :smallbiggrin:

ffone
2011-01-24, 02:02 AM
The best way to avoid arguments and resentment over the DM interpretation of is environmental restriction is for the DM to decide, a priori, whether a given encounter is in such an area.

That way, rather than everyone getting into hourlong discussions about botany and horticulture, and wondering whether the DM did or didn't like them personally, the DM can just say "this area has(n't) sufficient vegetation b/c when I designed the encounter last weekend, that was a defined parameter. All fluff I tell you about your surroundings are within that parameter" (and if you really care you should ask at the outset of the encounter - I figure a ranger or druid can eyeball the appropriate conditions).

I generally do this DMing if there are any rangers or druids in the party (or enemies for that encounter). Likewise with the lightning conditions category and terrain category (suitable for charging vs not.)

Also, in my experience, the people who complain about it are those whose PCs completely forgot to give their character a ranged weapon, even a nonmagical weapon. Those people get upset in lots of situations - flying foes, foes in trees, foes across chasms, etc.

It can help as a DM to choose one of the 'official' terrain categories (such as from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm ) and then use that for conditions.

For example, decide Entangle always works in Forest and Marsh but never in Desert (unless you've declared it to be an Oasis or the Pasha's Gardens or whatever). If they're not on a road look up the movement speed fractions, and if it's less than 1x, you can't charge without some special ability like Acrobatic Charge or a successful long Jump check for the full distance.

jpreem
2011-01-24, 05:14 AM
@ previous
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/toolsScreen.html

According to the table terrain and overland movment - you can never charge when you are not on a road or a trail :D Makes all those mounted lancers look kind of stupid doesn't it.
" Beware lawbreaker - as soon as they pave this place you'll gonna get what you deserve!"

I actually do agree with you - to keep stuff simple and reduce the amount of whining just say that encounter takes place in an enviroment X, ( that being drawn from a certain list) and in enviroment X the conditions for light, plantlife, chargin etc are this and that.

Coidzor
2011-01-24, 06:48 AM
What if you're on a boat or in the dead of winter?

It being winter wouldn't have an effect, except for getting rid of the annual plants like certain small flowering plants for the most part, unless it was a land of eternal winter(no mundane plant life in the first place other than maybe some lichens) or something along those lines of severity, say, natural permafrost (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Permafrost). Because in the spring one doesn't have to wait for last year's grass to finish rotting while this new year's grass starts sprouting.

bokodasu
2011-01-24, 07:03 AM
Deserts: full of cactus. I'd entangle the heck out of my foes in one.

Our party spent every encounter between levels 3 and... 9ish? Outside. So it *might* have been useful, except that it never was. Everyone always yelled at me when I cast it because they'd rather get slaughtered by a billion kobolds than lose their flanking bonus. And then when we got to levels where it might have been useful, everything was strong enough to more or less ignore it. Oh, and then there was the time I managed to entangle the entire party and none of the enemies. (Oops.)

Oh, and between entangle and the other environmental spells, I made my DM start every encounter with a description of all the local flora and fauna, the prevailing weather conditions, wind speed and direction, etc. This is why he's running an urban campaign now.

Killer Angel
2011-01-24, 07:21 AM
And if your campaign is underground, then it's your fault for choosing a druid.

errr....
It's not that the druid becomes useless underground, only 'coz he cannot use a first level spell. :smallamused:

cowsay
2011-01-24, 10:50 PM
What makes Entangle so useful is that it has a lot that looks so much stronger than many other first level spells.

--It has a long Range
--It has a relatively long duration, longer than the average fight.
--It has a large area of effect
--No spell resistance
--Even a failed save has an effect on those within the area of effect
--It can be cast to center around a point above the ground in order to adjust the size of the area of effect on the ground.
--Even on a successful save creatures must each round they are in the area if effect.
--Creatures that fail their saves are entangled and thus immobile, more vulnerable to attack, and less effective in ranged attacks.
--The spell can still be quite useful at higher levels.
--If you're a druid and there is no appropriate place to cast the spell, you can still Summon Nature's Ally I, so at leat there is an out for preparing it if there are no plants in the desert, wilderness, or underground, today.

At the same time the spell is useless, itself, if there are no plants within the area of effect.

ericgrau
2011-01-24, 10:55 PM
While I concede to the point above in general, by-the-book goblins carry morningstars and javelins, and the javelins were all used up by the end of round two. In addition, those caught by entangle do take a -4 penalty on ranged attacks. It's a fair point that the spell is situational, but at least for us it made the Druid look much too good.

D&D javelins are simply very light throwing spears, each no heavier than a shortsword and 1/3-1/4 the weight of a regular spear. Why didn't each of the goblins have 4 or more? Nothing in the entry limits them to one, any more than giving a crossbow foe only 1 bolt. Sounds like bad dming again. Heck why were all of them vanilla goblins and not with some variety like sword/crossbow and etc.? The -4 AB hurts but is only for those that fail their saves and even then it's not the end of the world.


errr....
It's not that the druid becomes useless underground, only 'coz he cannot use a first level spell. :smallamused:
It's not just entangle. There are multiple spells on every level. The animal and tree stuff for example.

Sitzkrieg
2011-01-25, 12:55 AM
Well, like I said, I concede that Entangle is situational, and a DM prepared for it can, well, be prepared for it. It's not a broken spell, just a good one, and one that can catch you by surprise sometimes. I was just sharing that in my recent personal experience, it ruined an encounter. All that said, it's one thing to give suggestions for preparing for or countering Entangle, and another to call my DM names. I'm sure you came off stronger than you meant to, but please don't insult my friends over the internet. My DM is far from the only one to throw together an adventure straight from the statbooks, and I think it's rather valuable to share how Entangle can throw a hitch into a pack of mooks assembled that way.

Killer Angel
2011-01-25, 07:51 AM
It's not just entangle. There are multiple spells on every level. The animal and tree stuff for example.

nonetheless, I hardly call it weak.
And a druid going underground, will have some feather token - tree... :smalltongue:

ShriekingDrake
2011-01-25, 09:26 AM
nonetheless, I hardly call it weak.
And a druid going underground, will have some feather token - tree... :smalltongue:

That's interesting. Are you suggesting that bringing a feather token tree with you, activating it, and tossing it into the battlefield would let your druid or ranger cast Entangle?

I'm still thinking about how I'd rule on entangle working on the whole area if there were only vegetation in a portion of the area of effect.

Amnestic
2011-01-25, 09:38 AM
I'm still thinking about how I'd rule on entangle working on the whole area if there were only vegetation in a portion of the area of effect.

Considering the nature of the spell (trees wrapping around people?) I think it's fair to say that the plants are somewhat mutated/enlarged/twisted by it. Thus it's not a great stretch to argue that the spell mutates them to be large enough to encompass the full area of effect.

If that's not satisfactory, you could handwave it by saying the roots of the plants rise up to twist and try to entangle creatures. Since roots will generally stretch out a fair bit from a plant's place (and will also likely be enlarged) then they too could encompass the full area of effect.

Or you could just not let it work outside the immediate plant area, but that might be a little silly. If there's a patch of mud with no plantgrowth on it in the centre of a bunch of grass/trees, I'd still expect Entangle to work there.

ShriekingDrake
2011-01-25, 10:49 AM
Considering the nature of the spell (trees wrapping around people?) I think it's fair to say that the plants are somewhat mutated/enlarged/twisted by it. Thus it's not a great stretch to argue that the spell mutates them to be large enough to encompass the full area of effect.

If that's not satisfactory, you could handwave it by saying the roots of the plants rise up to twist and try to entangle creatures. Since roots will generally stretch out a fair bit from a plant's place (and will also likely be enlarged) then they too could encompass the full area of effect.

Or you could just not let it work outside the immediate plant area, but that might be a little silly. If there's a patch of mud with no plantgrowth on it in the centre of a bunch of grass/trees, I'd still expect Entangle to work there.

I'm persuaded by your thinking here.

ericgrau
2011-01-25, 11:21 AM
Tree roots are about twice as wide as the branches so assuming the token comes with roots you should have plenty of area for your entangle. Reasonable on a dirt floor, arguable on stone. It's an expensive and time consuming idea though. I think the person posting it was doing so in response to the druid tree spells I mentioned. In that case it has the same drawback, but can still be plenty useful for things like transport via plants and tree stride.

cowsay
2011-01-25, 05:50 PM
What makes Entangle so useful is that it has a lot that looks so much stronger than many other first level spells.

--It has a long Range
--It has a relatively long duration, longer than the average fight.
--It has a large area of effect
--No spell resistance
--Even a failed save has an effect on those within the area of effect
--It can be cast to center around a point above the ground in order to adjust the size of the area of effect on the ground.
--Even on a successful save creatures must each round they are in the area if effect.
--Creatures that fail their saves are entangled and thus immobile, more vulnerable to attack, and less effective in ranged attacks.
--The spell can still be quite useful at higher levels.
--If you're a druid and there is no appropriate place to cast the spell, you can still Summon Nature's Ally I, so at leat there is an out for preparing it if there are no plants in the desert, wilderness, or underground, today.

At the same time the spell is useless, itself, if there are no plants within the area of effect.

So, does all this suggest that the spell should be nerfed or bumped to second or third level? These poiints were at the heart of the group's debate. Some of the players felt it was unfair to have such a pwerful spell as a first level spell. Others argued that the limitation of vegetation was enough to make this a first level spell. What do others think?

ShriekingDrake
2011-01-27, 07:01 PM
^^ I don't think so. It think it's a solid first level spell, really solid. But I think it can stay as is and that it's fine at first. DMs that are worried about it can keep the party in veg free spaces and can arm their baddies with good distance weapons or even with entangle themselves.

Killer Angel
2011-01-28, 03:23 AM
I think the person posting it was doing so in response to the druid tree spells I mentioned. In that case it has the same drawback, but can still be plenty useful for things like transport via plants and tree stride.

Yep, I wasn't debating Entangle, but other more powerful plant spells underground. Also Liveoak.

Yahzi
2011-01-28, 05:23 AM
Would you interpret the spell as applying throughout its area, that is affecting creatures throughout the area, even if there weren't plants located throughout the area.
No, I wouldn't. But you don't have to allow that for the spell to dominate.

In my last campaign the bad guys started burning the fields before battles, so their cavalry wouldn't be instantly negated.

Again, it's situational; but my players got to 10th level or so, and were still casting Entangle whenever they could.

faceroll
2011-01-28, 05:57 AM
I would say it's a truly broken spell.
1. When it works, it is far too powerful.
2. When it doesn't work, it doesn't work at all.
3. It has a great deal of ambiguity/up to the DM whether it works or not.

3e seems to go on the premise that working not at all some of the time and totally melting face the rest of the time is 'balanced'. I tend to disagree.

First, let's take the case of a forest, grasslands, etc, where it working at its best is not up for debate.

It has medium range, so if you can see them coming from a ways off, you basically get to lock them down as soon as initiatives are rolled. It forces a save-or-lose. Even if you make the save, your move speed is halved, which means for those at the center of the spell, you're going to still be in the area of effect next round. Which means a second save. If you fail your save, you're stuck, take penalties, and can only escape by making a strength check or escape artist check. For a great deal of enemies, this is quite hard. Even a 10th level NPC fighter could get royally screwed by an entangle, as can a whole mess of small to large humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and giants that don't come with ranks in escape artist and don't have more than 24 str.

It's the ultimate control spell for its level (and, by extension, one of the best spells around cause control is king), especially for humanoids with class levels and bad reflex saves.

Locking down enemies lets the party avoid damage while preparing and organizing. Buffs can go up, frontliners get in formations, and stragglers who were missed/get out of the spell can be easy ganged up on. And with it's ridiculous duration, it's not that easy to wait out.

In the case of lichen entangling everyone, as a DM, I would simply say no. I'd rule that you need at least ankle to knee high vegetation for it to be of any use. But that's because spamming entangle EVERYWHERE is just ridiculous.

ShriekingDrake
2011-01-28, 09:52 AM
I suspect there are lots of definitions of broken out there. Myself, I think Entangle's big numbers, as cowsay bulleted above, make the spell appear to be broken, when it isn't; it's just powerful, useful, and appropriately flavorful. It certainly does have numbers that other first level spells don't have. BUT, I don't think Entangle is game-breaking. It really all depends on context. True Strike, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter, Power Word: Pain, Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Benign Transposition, Sleep, Command, Ray of Enfeeblement, Color Spray, etc. all have devastating uses, depending on the context. These are all powerful spells, especially at low levels and some of them remain good throughout the game. There are easy, non-contrived ways for the DM to deal with Entangle. I'd say it's powerful, not broken.

Z3ro
2011-01-28, 10:09 AM
I would say it's a truly broken spell.
1. When it works, it is far too powerful.
2. When it doesn't work, it doesn't work at all.
3. It has a great deal of ambiguity/up to the DM whether it works or not.

3e seems to go on the premise that working not at all some of the time and totally melting face the rest of the time is 'balanced'. I tend to disagree.
use.

I disagree with your disagreement. I would agree if the conditions for it not working were random or arbitrary. In the case of entangle, the conditions for the spell to work (natural area, enemy seen ahead of time) are completely in control of the DM, making the spell as good or bad as the DM desires.

WarKitty
2011-01-28, 10:18 AM
I disagree with your disagreement. I would agree if the conditions for it not working were random or arbitrary. In the case of entangle, the conditions for the spell to work (natural area, enemy seen ahead of time) are completely in control of the DM, making the spell as good or bad as the DM desires.

Honestly, anything that relies on the DM making an arbitrary call isn't that good. It turns into arguments too easily, the DM feels that the have to cut the spell down sometimes, and then the player feels picked on or useless because they can't use their spells. It's sort of like using a bunch of AMF's to counter a wizard - it may stop the wizard from breaking things, but it's no fun for the player.

ShriekingDrake
2011-01-28, 10:25 AM
DMs are story tellers and players do unpredictable things all the time that require spontaneous adjustments to the stories. You have to change plans mid-steam ALL THE TIME. If you've got players who focus too heavily on one tactic, you let them succeed sometimes, and at other times you don't, so they learn to try something new. Entangle doesn't require nerfing. It might mean, however that the next outdoor encounter might have your orcs more spread out than you'd originally planned and they might be armed with bows, slings, and spears rather than exclusively swords, daggers, and axes. Or you might just let the players dominate those orcs. OR you might make the encounter Stirges.

Z3ro
2011-01-28, 10:26 AM
Honestly, anything that relies on the DM making an arbitrary call isn't that good. It turns into arguments too easily, the DM feels that the have to cut the spell down sometimes, and then the player feels picked on or useless because they can't use their spells. It's sort of like using a bunch of AMF's to counter a wizard - it may stop the wizard from breaking things, but it's no fun for the player.

I would agree, except that 1) it's a first level spell 2) it can be used to cast SNA and 3) its more the tactics of the monsters, not arbitrary fiat of the DM.

WarKitty
2011-01-28, 10:37 AM
DMs are story tellers and players do unpredictable things all the time that require spontaneous adjustments to the stories. You have to change plans mid-steam ALL THE TIME. If you've got players who focus too heavily on one tactic, you let them succeed sometimes, and at other times you don't, so they learn to try something new. Entangle doesn't require nerfing. It might mean, however that the next outdoor encounter might have your orcs more spread out than you'd originally planned and they might be armed with bows, slings, and spears rather than exclusively swords, daggers, and axes. Or you might just let the players dominate those orcs. OR you might make the encounter Stirges.


I would agree, except that 1) it's a first level spell 2) it can be used to cast SNA and 3) its more the tactics of the monsters, not arbitrary fiat of the DM.

Oh, tactics are fine. I thought you guys meant saying "sorry, you're now spending the session that you prepared entangle for indoors." That's the part I don't like, having a spell made so I can't even cast it and do anything at all. Especially at low levels, when my only other option is missing repeatedly with a sling.

Fitz10019
2011-01-28, 01:31 PM
I had a DM who announced a continent-wide drought on the first day of our campaign. I always thought it was an early clue to some aspect of the metaplot... but nothing that happened in the next two years ever made the drought relevant. Now I realize he just wanted to nerf Entangle.

ericgrau
2011-01-28, 02:16 PM
So, does all this suggest that the spell should be nerfed or bumped to second or third level? These poiints were at the heart of the group's debate. Some of the players felt it was unfair to have such a pwerful spell as a first level spell. Others argued that the limitation of vegetation was enough to make this a first level spell. What do others think?

Ya, I agree with the second group of players as long as it really is a limitation. It's up to the DM to provide plenty of ranged foes (and ranged backup on every melee; I mean it's level 1 common sense) and a mix of indoor/outdoor encounters. If he says "range is stupid melee all the way" and "hey guys this campaign will be outdoors" then he needs some convincing otherwise or if that fails he needs to nerf entangle. IMO do it directly and boost the spell level a little instead of any of the convoluted methods above. The higher the level the sooner everything will have such high strength, saves, flight, etc. that it won't be so hot even against melee.

faceroll
2011-01-31, 11:11 PM
Oh, tactics are fine. I thought you guys meant saying "sorry, you're now spending the session that you prepared entangle for indoors." That's the part I don't like, having a spell made so I can't even cast it and do anything at all. Especially at low levels, when my only other option is missing repeatedly with a sling.

Just turn the entangle into a tripping wolf!

Skaven
2011-02-01, 03:20 AM
Its not really a gamebreaker.

It doesn't work on roads, indoors, only in some caves if there's roots.. the penalties are decent, but nothing to write home about past 5th level.

Its certainly an upper tier 1st level spell though, and I always try and keep one memorised unless I know we won't be somewhere it can be used.

ffone
2011-02-01, 03:24 AM
D&D javelins are simply very light throwing spears, each no heavier than a shortsword and 1/3-1/4 the weight of a regular spear. Why didn't each of the goblins have 4 or more? Nothing in the entry limits them to one, any more than giving a crossbow foe only 1 bolt. Sounds like bad dming again. Heck why were all of them vanilla goblins and not with some variety like sword/crossbow and etc.? The -4 AB hurts but is only for those that fail their saves and even then it's not the end of the world.


It's not just entangle. There are multiple spells on every level. The animal and tree stuff for example.

+1. My enemy NPCs virtually always have both melee and ranged weapons, if they can use manufactured weapons at all.

Combat Reflexes
2011-02-01, 03:50 AM
Entangle may be a good spell, but it's not broken or even the best 1st-level spell. Silent Image is. It a 1st-level Invisibility, Command, Entangle and much more than that.

ShriekingDrake
2011-02-05, 12:41 PM
Another interesting spell, which is almost the same as Entangle, is Impeding Stones from Cityscape. It has many of the same advantages of Entangle, which a moderately different effect--it knocks prone instead of entangling. It has a shorter range but the same area of effect. However, it is useful in many more areas because it affects "stones, bricks, hard dirt, or any similar surface," which, to me, appears to have a great deal more ubiquity in the adventuring locale than what entangle effects.

Preparing the two would be of great value.

backpackjack
2011-02-17, 09:45 PM
Impeding Stones is almost worse because you can use it in so many places. Like in a city. Like underground Like on a country road.

Heliomance
2011-02-18, 03:01 AM
I disagree with your disagreement. I would agree if the conditions for it not working were random or arbitrary. In the case of entangle, the conditions for the spell to work (natural area, enemy seen ahead of time) are completely in control of the DM, making the spell as good or bad as the DM desires.

Handful of seeds plus Plant Growth lets you use it literally anywhere.

caden_varn
2011-02-18, 05:41 AM
Even if the DM allows you to use seeds as a base for plant growth (and I probably wouldn't, personally), you need to get the seeds into the area where you want the entangle - unless you have a way to quickly move them to long range, that is basically by your feet, which reduces the tactical possibilities quite a bit...

It also means you need to cast an additional spell, meaning the enemies have more time to close and reduces the utility of the spell even further.

ShriekingDrake
2011-02-18, 09:00 AM
Even if the DM allows you to use seeds as a base for plant growth (and I probably wouldn't, personally), you need to get the seeds into the area where you want the entangle - unless you have a way to quickly move them to long range, that is basically by your feet, which reduces the tactical possibilities quite a bit...

It also means you need to cast an additional spell, meaning the enemies have more time to close and reduces the utility of the spell even further.

I'm not sure how I'd say you could plant growth those seed either. And I agree that it would take you two spells instead of one to accomplish the same goal. However, if the seed thing does work, casting entangle right around you is a great thing for a druid, who can move through it with no problem while the foes deal with being entangled. So, while casting 2 spells is most definitely a draw back, entangle is only hampered a little.

caden_varn
2011-02-18, 09:14 AM
You cannot move through magically manipulated vegetation via woodland stride, and even if you could, your buddy the fighter or rogue standing next to you may be unimpressed with your tactics... :smallsmile:

ShriekingDrake
2011-02-18, 11:54 AM
You cannot move through magically manipulated vegetation via woodland stride, and even if you could, your buddy the fighter or rogue standing next to you may be unimpressed with your tactics... :smallsmile:

My bad. You're correct. Indeed, Woodland Stride says that it does not work on magically manipulated overgrowth etc. Thanks for correcting the record.

Haarkla
2011-02-19, 09:33 AM
The debate fluxuated around whether Entangle was "broken", "just fine", "overpowered", "lopsided", "situational", "the most powerful first level spell period", "extremely good, but so rarely used in our/most campaigns as to be not a problem", "something that should be nerfed", and "very overrated".

I am now curious what people in this community think on this question that so agitated our group's harmony. With the hope that I am not stirring up a hornets nest here, I would appreciate knowing member's thoughts on Entangle.
Broken, and the most powerful first level spell by a large margin.

Effectively makes almost any vaguely level appropiate encounter in grasslands, forest, or marshland meaningless.

As DM, I don't ban anything, but if I did, Entangle would be first on the list.

WarKitty
2011-02-19, 09:50 AM
Broken, and the most powerful first level spell by a large margin.

Effectively makes almost any vaguely level appropiate encounter in grasslands, forest, or marshland meaningless.

As DM, I don't ban anything, but if I did, Entangle would be first on the list.

I always wonder about this. Whenever I've played with it, roughly 50% of the enemies make their save and get out of it in a turn. Pretty much 100% of bosses do. That's hardly making things meaningless.

Amnestic
2011-02-19, 10:08 AM
Even if the DM allows you to use seeds as a base for plant growth (and I probably wouldn't, personally), you need to get the seeds into the area where you want the entangle - unless you have a way to quickly move them to long range, that is basically by your feet, which reduces the tactical possibilities quite a bit...

It also means you need to cast an additional spell, meaning the enemies have more time to close and reduces the utility of the spell even further.

There was a spell brought up on these forums not too long ago called Hurl Object which allowed you to, as the name implies, hurl an object a long way. Can't remember which book it was from though.

And if seeds aren't sufficient, a handful of grass is.

Haarkla
2011-02-19, 10:16 AM
I always wonder about this. Whenever I've played with it, roughly 50% of the enemies make their save and get out of it in a turn. Pretty much 100% of bosses do. That's hardly making things meaningless.
That requires 80' speed (if near the centre of the spells area).

Most opponents will need to make 2, or more usually 3, saves to leave the entangled area.

WarKitty
2011-02-19, 10:18 AM
That requires 80' speed (if near the centre of the spells area).

I've never been able to cast it with the enemies actually at the center, unless I also want to entangle all my friends.

Then again, this was the game where I had to beg the DM to let me use it in some questionable environments, because otherwise I was out of spells and my party didn't like me cluttering up the field with summons.

ShriekingDrake
2011-02-22, 09:45 PM
Broken, and the most powerful first level spell by a large margin.

Effectively makes almost any vaguely level appropiate encounter in grasslands, forest, or marshland meaningless.

As DM, I don't ban anything, but if I did, Entangle would be first on the list.

Wow. That's so different than my impressions of the game and the spell. I'd ban SO many spells but not entangle. Entangle is not broken. It's just highly evolved for its environment. There are many ways for a DM to work around Entangle, but there are so many spells that cannot be worked around. I guess I just see this differently than you do because I see the spell as GREAT but not broken.

Chuckthedwarf
2011-02-22, 10:38 PM
Who adventures in places with vegetation? Everything I've played has been either indoors or underground. Maybe one session in the woods, but the party usually finds a way around that. You might as well just ban the spell.

There are plenty location-specific spells out there.

You wouldn't need Waterbreath or all sorts of swim and underwater survival enhancing spells if you always adventure way out of water, but that doesn't mean it's useless or might as well be banned.

You probably wouldn't be using Treewalk, or whatever it's called, anywhere there aren't trees - it's in the name, dammit, but that doesn't make it useless.

And you can have plenty adventurers in forests... There are goblins, King Kong, evil cults gathering in the forest, lost temples, evil fairies, whatever the hell you want. Just remind your DM about it...