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Silva Stormrage
2011-01-22, 07:17 PM
(Gabe, Tommy, Nathan, stay out :smallamused:)

Hello a boss I am making for a camphain I am running has a lot of spells that rely on the players being on the ground to work, blood snow, death hail, etc. What are some good spells that would keep the players unable to fly? I would prefer to avoid dispels because one player can naturally fly and this boss relies on a lot of debuff effects.

Right now the only way I have really thought of is Iceberg from Frostburn (If you can't tell by now this guy is a frost caster :smallbiggrin:) but that might be overkill to use every time... Oh and as a side note they won't be able to teleport due to an epic spell.

My Players:
20th lvl Druid/Sorc focues on high saves,ac and save or dies
20th lvl Spell Theif, not sure what he can do he had to make a new character after his last one died
20th lvl Cleric, Divine Metamagic Twin and spams miracles to decent effect.

Mention any effects that would stop them from flying because there is a thrallherd on the same team as this guy so he could just ask help from a thrall.

Marnath
2011-01-22, 07:20 PM
Off the top of my head, you can't fly indoors. Make your boss live somewhere where the only possible way to attack him is to come into his lair, which just so happens to have a low ceiling.

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 07:22 PM
Hmm, there's some spell that was mentioned in one of the more recent Red Hand of Doom threads as being capable of forcing flying dragons to the ground. Downdraft or something along those lines.

Silva Stormrage
2011-01-22, 07:26 PM
Off the top of my head, you can't fly indoors. Make your boss live somewhere where the only possible way to attack him is to come into his lair, which just so happens to have a low ceiling.

Unfortunately I love the Lich King from warcraft and have modeled the boss fight area to be similar to the Frozen Throne. So its pretty wide open mostly to push them off :smalltongue: another reason to make the players lose their flying abilities. Thanks for the suggestion.

I will try to find that downdraft spell. I know the druid player in my campaign used a spell called updraft. Maybe its in the same book? Ill ask him about that.

Edit: Found Downdraft that looks almost exactly what I wanted I will defiantly find a way to give it to this boss. Also as a side note is it possible to apply fell drain to downdraft? It deals damage from falling but the spell itself doesn't cause the damage.

Iceforge
2011-01-22, 08:34 PM
Unfortunately I love the Lich King from warcraft and have modeled the boss fight area to be similar to the Frozen Throne. So its pretty wide open mostly to push them off :smalltongue: another reason to make the players lose their flying abilities. Thanks for the suggestion.

I will try to find that downdraft spell. I know the druid player in my campaign used a spell called updraft. Maybe its in the same book? Ill ask him about that.

Edit: Found Downdraft that looks almost exactly what I wanted I will defiantly find a way to give it to this boss. Also as a side note is it possible to apply fell drain to downdraft? It deals damage from falling but the spell itself doesn't cause the damage.

I would say "no", you could apply fell drain surely, but wouldn't do anything because they aren't damaged by the spell, they are just damaged from the fall they suffer due to the spell, but I think it is a judgement call, but seems most logical to me that it would be a "no"

Ernir
2011-01-22, 08:37 PM
Harpoon + big brutish minion?

The 3.5 stats for the harpoon are, conveniently enough, in Frostburn as well.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-22, 08:38 PM
Unfortunately I love the Lich King from warcraft and have modeled the boss fight area to be similar to the Frozen Throne. So its pretty wide open mostly to push them off :smalltongue: another reason to make the players lose their flying abilities. Thanks for the suggestion.

I will try to find that downdraft spell. I know the druid player in my campaign used a spell called updraft. Maybe its in the same book? Ill ask him about that.

Edit: Found Downdraft that looks almost exactly what I wanted I will defiantly find a way to give it to this boss. Also as a side note is it possible to apply fell drain to downdraft? It deals damage from falling but the spell itself doesn't cause the damage.

Agreed - if the spell doesn't deal damage directly, it's not eligible for Fell Drain. Otherwise you could Fell Drain a Magic Weapon/Fang spell, since the sword you cast it on deals damage.

Bakkan
2011-01-22, 08:43 PM
Earthbind from the Spell Compendium can work also. Target must make a Fortitude save or be unable to fly

Silva Stormrage
2011-01-22, 09:30 PM
Thank you for the replies.

Ya just just wanted to make sure on the downdraft and fell drain.

And thank you for pointing out Earth Bind that and down draft are perfect for what I need. This boss has chain spell so putting that up on them then knocking the rest down with downdraft should be enough to stop them from trivializing the debuffs on the ground.

The harpoon is interesting I have never read that before. I might try and build a character around that in the future. Also I will probably have a couple minions carrying harpoons in this fight too since none of them have decent strength scores.

:smallbiggrin: Thanks for the help guys.

Force
2011-01-22, 09:32 PM
Edit: Found Downdraft that looks almost exactly what I wanted I will defiantly find a way to give it to this boss. Also as a side note is it possible to apply fell drain to downdraft? It deals damage from falling but the spell itself doesn't cause the damage.

You're the DM. If you want the boss to have a Fell Drain'd downdraft, he'll have it. :P

Silva Stormrage
2011-01-22, 09:38 PM
You're the DM. If you want the boss to have a Fell Drain'd downdraft, he'll have it. :P

Oh of course I COULD do it. But I dislike it when players do something that is agianst the rules and I like to hold myself to the same rules as them. Also I'm the type of person who likes to make characters powerful in their own right. If I have to resort to saying I'm the dm it works it loses some purpose for me :smallbiggrin:

Beelzebub1111
2011-01-22, 09:40 PM
None of them have good reflex saves...harpoons and tanglefoot bags.

I find that the biggest problems with boss battles is not flight or cheap (albeit in this case: easily counter-able) tricks that make boss fights anticlimactic, it's the "Lots of players ganging up on a single one" part

Minions help. Keep them busy and annoyed with things that can fly. Like Mephits (nothing is more annoying and distracting than a swarm of 10-15 of those), A few Manticores for ranged and anti-air support, or maybe even a few Very Young White (or Silver) dragon zombies. While they're busy, your lich king can blast away with Cold spells to his phylactery's content.

OR you could give your boss a flying mobile platform made of ice. If your players are 20th level, They'll overlook a few McGuffins.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-22, 09:48 PM
Spell Compendium has Bands of Steel and Wingbind, both would work to keep them from using wings to fly. (Quickened) Bands of Steel with (lesser rod of) Chain Spell will still entangle everyone it hits even if they make their saving throw, so it's basically a way to automatically ruin their flight.

Make them have to swim through frigid water to access the last room of his lair, as per hypothermia rules in Frostburn they'll take a -10 penalty on Fortitude saves vs cold effects until they get into some dry clothes. Snowcasting will make this apply to every Fort save spell he casts, it's particularly brutal with Flesh to Ice, especially with Chain Spell.

Silva Stormrage
2011-01-22, 09:50 PM
None of them have good reflex saves...harpoons and tanglefoot bags.

I find that the biggest problems with boss battles is not flight or cheap (albeit in this case: easily counter-able) tricks that make boss fights anticlimactic, it's the "Lots of players ganging up on a single one" part

Minions help. Keep them busy and annoyed with things that can fly. Like Mephits (nothing is more annoying and distracting than a swarm of 10-15 of those), A few Manticores for ranged and anti-air support, or maybe even a few Very Young White (or Silver) dragon zombies. While they're busy, your lich king can blast away with Cold spells to his phylactery's content.

OR you could give your boss a flying mobile platform made of ice. If your players are 20th level, They'll overlook a few McGuffins.

Ya he does have quite a few undead minions and constructs with him during the fight. Im hesistant to swarm them with anything because the Druid has a tendancy of spamming frostfell (We all like frost burn a lot :smallbiggrin:) which kills spammed people very fast.

Also the dragon idea is very cool. I think I might mix the platform idea with it too. What would be the balance check to stand on saddle? If the saddle is for a huge size creature and the boss is medium (without enlarge and righteous might of course :smallwink:)

The boss has a custom spell similar to death's grip from WOW so I have this image of him pulling a player on top of the saddle and having him engage the player in melee while the dragon is flying.


Edit:

Spell Compendium has Bands of Steel and Wingbind, both would work to keep them from using wings to fly. (Quickened) Bands of Steel with (lesser rod of) Chain Spell will still entangle everyone it hits even if they make their saving throw, so it's basically a way to automatically ruin their flight.

Make them have to swim through frigid water to access the last room of his lair, as per hypothermia rules in Frostburn they'll take a -10 penalty on Fortitude saves vs cold effects until they get into some dry clothes. Snowcasting will make this apply to every Fort save spell he casts, it's particularly brutal with Flesh to Ice, especially with Chain Spell.

Thank you for pointing the bands of steel out. With that, avuscular mass, web, tanglefoot bags, and chocking cobwebs thats 5 entangle effects :smallbiggrin:.

Do you know of anyway to produce hypothermia without swimming through frigid water? Maybe a disease for contagion mass?. It will be slightly difficult to make a 20th lvl party swim through frozen water. Would having a trap that drenches them in Arctic water still apply hypothermia?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-22, 10:40 PM
I'd just make a flooded tunnel that they would swim through out of either necessity or curiosity. They would likely have some kind of protections from cold in effect, but they would still be soaked in frigid water. Put some obvious humanoid bones, ruined armor pieces, scattered coins, and maybe egg shells at the water's edge and they're sure to go looking for loot.

Make it dark and put a Cryohydra in there, give it the elite array and make its feats Snatch, Improved Snatch, and Multisnatch from MM and Draconomicon. One head grabs someone, it holds at a -10 and the rest of the hydra isn't considered part of that grapple. The rest of its heads can then attack the grabbed character and it would be considered attacks from outside a grapple, so no Dex bonus. It could easily snatch every party member who's medium or smaller and then focus the rest of its attacks on someone bigger.

Make the water cloudy so that vision is clear enough to see your own square, concealment in adjacent squares, and total concealment any further out. Hydras have Scent so it would notice them approaching, and each of its heads can see so when it bites into a square it doesn't suffer concealment for that target. That should give it a nice surprise round, they wouldn't be able to use targeted spells on it unless they got right up next to it, and it should be able to get everyone grappled with its initial attacks. Its CR would be considerably lower than their level, but it should still make an interesting encounter. Put two of them in there if you think just one would be a pushover.

Edit: Put a permanent Wall of Greater Dispel Magic in there, and the Hydras should come out of the corners from behind them right after they pass through it. They'll be without water breathing and protection from cold, so once they get grappled they'll be trapped underwater and risk drowning. A few breath attacks and the frigid water and they should start to get worried enough that even if they kill the hydras within a few rounds it will have been a good encounter.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-22, 10:46 PM
Control Winds at a very high CL should do it.
A windstorm (51+ mph) drives most flying creatures from the skies, uproots small trees, knocks down light wooden structures, tears off roofs, and endangers ships. Each round, on your turn, a failed Fortitude save means flying PCs are driven from the skies.

Silva Stormrage
2011-01-22, 11:14 PM
Control Winds at a very high CL should do it. Each round, on your turn, a failed Fortitude save means flying PCs are driven from the skies.

Useful but he doesn't have the spell on his spell list. Would the dc of a use magic device check go up if it increases the caster level on the scroll? If it increases it too much he could just have the thrallherd's thrall cast it.


I'd just make a flooded tunnel that they would swim through out of either necessity or curiosity. They would likely have some kind of protections from cold in effect, but they would still be soaked in frigid water. Put some obvious humanoid bones, ruined armor pieces, scattered coins, and maybe egg shells at the water's edge and they're sure to go looking for loot.

Make it dark and put a Cryohydra in there, give it the elite array and make its feats Snatch, Improved Snatch, and Multisnatch from MM and Draconomicon. One head grabs someone, it holds at a -10 and the rest of the hydra isn't considered part of that grapple. The rest of its heads can then attack the grabbed character and it would be considered attacks from outside a grapple, so no Dex bonus. It could easily snatch every party member who's medium or smaller and then focus the rest of its attacks on someone bigger.

Make the water cloudy so that vision is clear enough to see your own square, concealment in adjacent squares, and total concealment any further out. Hydras have Scent so it would notice them approaching, and each of its heads can see so when it bites into a square it doesn't suffer concealment for that target. That should give it a nice surprise round, they wouldn't be able to use targeted spells on it unless they got right up next to it, and it should be able to get everyone grappled with its initial attacks. Its CR would be considerably lower than their level, but it should still make an interesting encounter. Put two of them in there if you think just one would be a pushover.

Edit: Put a permanent Wall of Greater Dispel Magic in there, and the Hydras should come out of the corners from behind them right after they pass through it. They'll be without water breathing and protection from cold, so once they get grappled they'll be trapped underwater and risk drowning. A few breath attacks and the frigid water and they should start to get worried enough that even if they kill the hydras within a few rounds it will have been a good encounter.

Good idea but when they enter the dungeon it is a race against the clock type dungeon so they probably won't try to go through for treasure.

Actually though I could just have a tunnel go through freezing water. They would be too rushed to go try and find another way around.

Bakkan
2011-01-23, 06:11 AM
Useful but he doesn't have the spell on his spell list. Would the dc of a use magic device check go up if it increases the caster level on the scroll? If it increases it too much he could just have the thrallherd's thrall cast it.


Yes. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm) A Control Winds spell that could increase the wind strength from Light Wind to a Windstorm would be CL 12, so would require a DC 32 UMD check to activate.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-23, 07:17 AM
Note that you'll probably also need another Use Magic Device check:

Emulate an Ability Score

To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. A high emulated ability score will help with the DC for the Fortitude saves. But this works two ways, because the danger is that if you don't roll at least the minimum required you'll fail to activate the scroll.

Saintheart
2011-01-23, 07:25 AM
If their flight capabilities are granted via spell, and assuming they're all of neutral or good alignment, how about an Unhallow spell keying Dispel Magic as the operative spell, and targeting "nonevil" characters?

Can't Dispel Unhallow since Unhallow is instantaneous. Can't cast Hallow to counter it since they won't have 24 hours to cast the spell. And your caster is free to keep his buffs on since the spell can't target him, he's of another alignment.

It also takes out their other operative buffs as well. It's fun to watch players panic in confusion as their spells get blasted off them round-by-round.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-23, 07:26 AM
Note that you'll probably also need another Use Magic Device check:

Emulate an Ability Score

To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15.

A high emulated ability score will help with the DC for the Fortitude saves. But this works two ways, because the danger is that if you don't roll at least the minimum required you'll fail to activate the scroll.

Could someone could use UMD emulate a potentially emulate a much higher ability score to pump the save DC through the roof? After all, skills are cheaper to pump then ability scores.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-23, 07:38 AM
Could someone could use UMD emulate a potentially emulate a much higher ability score to pump the save DC through the roof? After all, skills are cheaper to pump then ability scores.
I'm not sure about "through the roof", but yes, you can boost emulated ability scores with UMD for scrolls only. The minimum ability score required for Control Winds is 15, which means you must roll at least 30 on your Emulate an Ability Score check just to activate the scroll. You'll need to have a considerably higher check to exceed most Fortitude saves, so good luck getting above that roof line. :smallwink:

Togo
2011-01-23, 07:44 AM
Have a permenant weather effect that harms people more than a certain distance from the ground. Or just really high winds that will sweep them away if they get too high. It means they can flee easily, but that probably isn't what they had in mind.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-23, 09:18 AM
I'm not sure about "through the roof", but yes, you can boost emulated ability scores with UMD for scrolls only. The minimum ability score required for Control Winds is 15, which means you must roll at least 30 on your Emulate an Ability Score check just to activate the scroll. You'll need to have a considerably higher check to exceed most Fortitude saves, so good luck getting above that roof line. :smallwink:
I With all the different types of bonuses to keep down the multiplication, and how cheap skill bonuses are to begin with, the roof would be easy to reach.

Mercenary Pen
2011-01-23, 09:24 AM
Floor tiles covered in Sovereign Glue? Could be nasty depending on where your players step.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-23, 12:03 PM
Floor tiles covered in Sovereign Glue? Could be nasty depending on where your players step.
Trouble is you can't just leave it like a Adventurer-sized Fly Trap. The glue only takes one round to set once applied. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems/wondrousitems.htm#sovereignGlue)

Silva Stormrage
2011-01-23, 01:34 PM
If their flight capabilities are granted via spell, and assuming they're all of neutral or good alignment, how about an Unhallow spell keying Dispel Magic as the operative spell, and targeting "nonevil" characters?

Can't Dispel Unhallow since Unhallow is instantaneous. Can't cast Hallow to counter it since they won't have 24 hours to cast the spell. And your caster is free to keep his buffs on since the spell can't target him, he's of another alignment.

It also takes out their other operative buffs as well. It's fun to watch players panic in confusion as their spells get blasted off them round-by-round.


Wow lot of replies. This is a good idea but I already cast unhallow to put dimensional Anchor on the Area :smallbiggrin:. And would dispel magic even do much to them? It has a max dispel check of + 10. There spell buffs have a dispel dc around 31 I don't think that would affect them at all.



Yes. A Control Winds spell that could increase the wind strength from Light Wind to a Windstorm would be CL 12, so would require a DC 32 UMD check to activate.

Thanks the use magic device skill checks always confused me :smallsmile:

Zaq
2011-01-23, 02:26 PM
There's always Reversed Seek the Sky.

Pros: Lasts for several rounds, no save allowed.

Cons: Requires being a Truenamer.

Silva Stormrage
2011-01-23, 02:37 PM
There's always Reversed Seek the Sky.

Pros: Lasts for several rounds, no save allowed.

Cons: Requires being a Truenamer.

Ya I think its that last part that makes that ability unusable :smallbiggrin:.

Iuliano05
2011-01-23, 03:01 PM
my personal favorite is a spell called bands of steel. I think its in Spell Compendium. Reflex save or be ensnared in big rings of steel. add some fall damage and good by flying guys.