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Sims
2011-01-22, 08:33 PM
Sound insane right? Wrong! (Whats funny is I prayed to win, and then when we rolled initiatives, I got a Natural 20!!!!)

The Halflings were all level 10 fighters with Wings of Flying. And half of them were wizards attempting to use antimagic scrolls! On my first turn, I flew up and out of range, and just picked them all off. Hahaha!

Every time he'd fly one up, I'd simply move and fire. (It took awhile) but eventually, he lost hahahaha! I spent most of my gold on AC buffs.

And wanna know whats funny? He NEVER ROLLED A NATURAL 20! Divine intervention anyone?

EDIT: I did have to use invisibility sphere a few times XP

Siosilvar
2011-01-22, 08:34 PM
Honestly, I'd be more impressed if you took down an ECL 31 character with anything that was only 10th level.

EDIT: To clarify. An Astral Deva with 11 levels is a 31st level character. There is no comparison between a 31st level character and any number of 10th level characters, no matter what arbitrarily large number you have.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-22, 08:36 PM
A level 11 Astral Deva is ECL31. You should be killing level 10 characters by the bucketloads when you're Epic...

EDIT: Swordsaged.

Sillycomic
2011-01-22, 08:39 PM
Wait.

So you soloed 200 halfling fighters, but half of them were wizards? so, does that means there were also 200 halfling wizards?

Or do you mean fighters as in... halfling that were fighting you?

So, you fought 100 halfling fighters and 100 halfling wizards... all who had wings of flying? Level 10 wizards who thought the only smart thing to do was cast anti-magic spells from scrolls at you?

If they all had wings of flying, why weren't the halfling fighters charging up and swarming you? You said it was one at a time. It should have been 100 at a time!

This wasn't insane, this was just a bad fight. You got lucky good sir. If the GM knew what a level 10 wizard could do, and you had 100 after your butt, you would be in serious trouble.

Czin
2011-01-22, 08:42 PM
Congratulations, now to truly impress me you must defeat Mordeknainen the level 30 wizard as presented in his dicefreaks stat block. He should have...more spells per day than you have hit points.

Runestar
2011-01-22, 08:43 PM
Did you mean an astral deva with 11 class lvs, or 11 lvs in the astral deva monster class?
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/monsters/savagespeciestables.html

If the former, that's way cool, though I don't see how you could have managed such a feat, considering how weak the astral deva is offense-wise.

Sims
2011-01-22, 08:44 PM
Hang, on I didn't post that right. I was level 11 in the Monster class in the savage species.

And yes, there were 200 wizards too. I didn't post it in the title cuz I thought it wouldn't fit.

(400 killed altogether. Bad Angel XD)

Sims
2011-01-22, 08:45 PM
Did you mean an astral deva with 11 class lvs, or 11 lvs in the astral deva monster class?
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/monsters/savagespeciestables.html

If the former, that's way cool, though I don't see how you could have managed such a feat, considering how weak the astral deva is offense-wise.

Slaying Arrows played a large roll in that haha

Waker
2011-01-22, 08:46 PM
Yeah, well one day I got bored, traveled through time and sunk Atlantis, but you don't hear me bragging.
As stated though, the difference in levels and the horrible strategies used against you didn't help though.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-22, 09:01 PM
How in the world did this fight not open with 1000 magic missiles?

Seriously, your opponents must have been played exceptionally poorly.

In any case, I guess enjoy your 10 million+ gp.

Mando Knight
2011-01-22, 09:04 PM
How in the world did this fight not open with 1000 magic missiles?

Angel traits.

Protective Aura (Su): Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the angel. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals angel’s HD). This aura can be dispelled, but the angel can create it again as a free action on its next turn. (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in an angel’s statistics block.)
How it should have opened was 200 Dismissals. Or Baleful Polymorphs. Even 200 Cloudkills would have done the job.

Sillycomic
2011-01-22, 09:06 PM
Even if the halfling wizards had cast anti-magic fields from their spell list it would have had a higher save and then perhaps something might have happened.

But from scrolls?

Seriously... level 4 commoners with some optimized UMD shenanigans could have done that.

And no one here would brag that they killed 400 level 4 commoners with their 11th level character.

Take a similar level spell. Summon Monster VI. You tell me you have got 200 wizards all with these scrolls, throwing large air elementals at you... then you've got something to brag about.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-22, 09:10 PM
Even if the halfling wizards had cast anti-magic fields from their spell list it would have had a higher save and then perhaps something might have happened.

But from scrolls?

Seriously... level 4 commoners with some optimized UMD shenanigans could have done that.

And no one here would brag that they killed 400 level 4 commoners with their 11th level character.

Take a similar level spell. Summon Monster VI. You tell me you have got 200 wizards all with these scrolls, throwing large air elementals at you... then you've got something to brag about.

Antimagic Field doesn't have a save. And casting it would just cripple themselves anyways, since they lacked any nonmagical flight to get them where the self-centered aura would encompass the Deva.

Sillycomic
2011-01-22, 09:12 PM
Yes, I just re-read it and saw that. Blerg.

Still. Crappy spell for what you're trying to do.

I would at the very least have had the wizards casting other spells as they fly up to the Astral Deva, only pulling out the scroll of antimagic if they ever got close enough to give the Deva a hug.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-22, 09:14 PM
How in the world did this fight not open with 1000 heightened magic missiles?

Mando Knight
2011-01-22, 09:15 PM
Antimagic Field doesn't have a save. And casting it would just cripple themselves anyways, since they lacked any nonmagical flight to get them where the self-centered aura would encompass the Deva.

And one fairly deadly fact: A Deva in an AM field? Is still an Outsider. It's not quite the same as a Dragon in an AM field (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), but you've still got d8 HD with full BAB, all good saves, a 100'/round flight speed, and +15 natural armor.

Elfin
2011-01-22, 09:18 PM
How in the world did this fight not open with 1000 heightened magic missiles?

Yeah. Now you have a point.

absolmorph
2011-01-22, 09:24 PM
How in the world did this fight not open with 1000 heightened magic missiles?
They were using poor tactics because of a stupid commander.

Elfin
2011-01-22, 09:28 PM
Oh, by the way, Sims, don't take any of this harshly or personally. When not vaunting our superior knowledge of rules combinations and our therefore superior worth as people, we're really very nice.

Except for Glyphstone. He'll make sure you're eaten last.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-22, 09:36 PM
I was joking too unless it wasn't clear.

Honestly, we can cry foul about how the army should have beat you, but all that really matters is whether you guys had fun. And it sounds like you did so congratulations.

Siosilvar
2011-01-22, 09:36 PM
Oh, by the way, Sims, don't take any of this harshly or personally. When not vaunting our superior knowledge of rules combinations and our therefore superior worth as a person, we're really very nice people.

Except for Glypshtone. He'll make sure you're eaten last.

:smallamused:

Elfin
2011-01-22, 09:43 PM
Glypshtone

Have I mentioned how much I hate virtual keyboards?

Dr Bwaa
2011-01-22, 10:30 PM
Glypshtone

Have I mentioned how much I hate virtual keyboards?

No, it's fine! Just say it in Sean Connery's voice!

Waker
2011-01-22, 10:33 PM
No, it's fine! Just say it in Sean Connery's voice!
That is an acceptable alternative. I just assumed his typing was slurred cause he was drinking.

Sims
2011-01-22, 10:34 PM
Oh, by the way, Sims, don't take any of this harshly or personally. When not vaunting our superior knowledge of rules combinations and our therefore superior worth as people, we're really very nice.

Except for Glyphstone. He'll make sure you're eaten last.

lol its cool man! I'm certain there are members who have been playing for years. (I remember seeing a thread on how a guy beat a Tarrasque with a level 4 Wizard.) So by comparison, this really was not all that "amazing" XD! I just wanted to find a sneaky way of saying my DM might be more of a n00b than I am hahaha! And hes been playing for 5 years!

The Glyphstone
2011-01-22, 10:39 PM
Oh, by the way, Sims, don't take any of this harshly or personally. When not vaunting our superior knowledge of rules combinations and our therefore superior worth as people, we're really very nice.

Except for Glyphstone. He'll make sure you're eaten last.

That privilege is reserved for loyal cultists, unfortunately. And Sean Connery is just another mask of Nyarlathotep, I can't eat him at all.

Sillycomic
2011-01-23, 02:45 AM
To be honest, if I soloed 400 of anything I would be extremely happy about it.

Congrats for that.

ericgrau
2011-01-23, 08:08 AM
Eh 20 levels below your level AND bad tactics. They could have at least plinked you with magic arrows. 1 out of 20 or 10 hit per round, composite bows for 1d6+2, 5.5 avg. So 55 damage per round out of your maybe 200-300 HP. Double that damage with rapid shot, but assuming they're all archery focused isn't fair. They probably still would have lost since you have 4-6++ rounds to reduce their numbers (and their damage output) but at least it would hurt a little. EDIT: Oh their arrows won't bust your DR unless they brought some blackguards with corrupt weapon. Or if the mages prepared flame arrow. Or if they brought packs of unholy arrows; expensive but would be cheaper than anti-magic field scrolls anyway.

MeeposFire
2011-01-23, 08:51 AM
Eh 20 levels below your level AND bad tactics. They could have at least plinked you with magic arrows. 1 out of 20 or 10 hit per round, composite bows for 1d6+2, 5.5 avg. So 55 damage per round out of your maybe 200-300 HP. Double that damage with rapid shot, but assuming they're all archery focused isn't fair. They probably still would have lost since you have 4-6++ rounds to reduce their numbers (and their damage output) but at least it would hurt a little. EDIT: Oh their arrows won't bust your DR unless they brought some blackguards with corrupt weapon. Or if the mages prepared flame arrow. Or if they brought packs of unholy arrows; expensive but would be cheaper than anti-magic field scrolls anyway.

Psst! He was a level 11 astral deva in the savage species monster class progression not a level 11 something astral deva (hence why no class levels mentioned). He is an ECL 11 not 31.

gbprime
2011-01-23, 09:03 AM
Still, what he's saying is that 200 level 10 wizards couldn't figure out how to do anything to him and stood around so he could kill them, while 200 flying fighters came after him one at a time until they all died.

Be amazed. [EDIT - or saddened at his DM's capability]

MeeposFire
2011-01-23, 09:08 AM
True but now it goes the other way around. Instead of it being a character being far too powerful for the encounter (ECL 31 vs CR10s) you get a battle beaten by a correctly leveled character (at least individually with the opponents) but won because the enemy used inferior tactics. Different dynamic.

gbprime
2011-01-23, 09:15 AM
There's inferior tactics and then there's no tactics whatsoever. 200 wizards (backed by 200 flying 10th level fighters) couldnt' figure out how to hurt one target with a 4th level spell through it's spell resistance? They're better off dead.

elpollo
2011-01-23, 10:42 AM
200? How long did a round take?

The Glyphstone
2011-01-23, 10:45 AM
200? How long did a round take?

By the description, he fought them one at a time, so each round was just long enough for the fighter/wizard to miss, or fail to use an antimagic scroll.

gbprime
2011-01-23, 11:13 AM
But fought them with WHAT is the question. "flew up and picked them all off" sounds like ranged combat. With a great strengthbow you're doing what, 1d8 + 10 per shot? Two shots a round against targets with at least a 22 AC? Let's say you (with your massive +6 BAB) hit 75% on the first shot and 50% on the second shot. Against 200 guys with 60 HP each?

You're looking at 1500 shots to bring all those fighters down. 1000 if you have a Halfling Bane strengthbow. Then there's downing all the wizards while they mysteriously hang around for all this. :smallsigh: How much AMMO did you say you brought?

Sims
2011-01-23, 11:57 AM
But fought them with WHAT is the question. "flew up and picked them all off" sounds like ranged combat. With a great strengthbow you're doing what, 1d8 + 10 per shot? Two shots a round against targets with at least a 22 AC? Let's say you (with your massive +6 BAB) hit 75% on the first shot and 50% on the second shot. Against 200 guys with 60 HP each?

You're looking at 1500 shots to bring all those fighters down. 1000 if you have a Halfling Bane strengthbow. Then there's downing all the wizards while they mysteriously hang around for all this. :smallsigh: How much AMMO did you say you brought?

I had "slaying" arrows. That allowed me to kill (Fort save DC 20) halflings in a single shot. Against the first 20, my DM let me have infinite ammo since he figured I'd be dead by round 4 (He also let me have them all with the same enchantments). Then, he got angry and said I had to come up wth a clever way to hold all those arrows or we were going to restart. So, I used a basket strapped to the Astral Devas back (that my DM made slow his fly speed down by 10 ft >:Y) and carried 300 arrows. Only 50 had the slaying effect, so i was forced to rely on "Necklace of Fireballs" for more wide spread damage.

When that was over, (meaning no more arrows, or wondrous items that could damage), I was forced to rely on a longsword and steel shield. But by then, there were still quite afew. I baited the fighters into aerial combat, out of range of the remaining Wizards.

But my DM had the remaining fighters "carry" the wizards up to me. All I did then was attack the wizards as they were merely meat shields. (The fighters couldn't effectively counter because their "hands" were full)

One by one, the Wizards fell. The fighters were nothing on their own. And I never had to heal myself. (Damage Reduction FTW!!!!)

gbprime
2011-01-23, 12:17 PM
But my DM had the remaining fighters "carry" the wizards up to me. All I did then was attack the wizards as they were merely meat shields. (The fighters couldn't effectively counter because their "hands" were full)

Yeah, because no wizard would ever cast Levitate, or Feather Fall, or be crazy enough to memorize Blast of Flame, Cloudkill, or a Heightened Magic Missle, any of which could have whittled your HP away without you able to do a thing about it. (Or take Wingbind, Earthbind, Downdraft, Bands of Steel...)


The fighters were nothing on their own. And I never had to heal myself. (Damage Reduction FTW!!!!)

Damage Reduction, of course. What luck, to encounter 200 tenth level fighters who didn't have a single magic weapon, or know any wizards that could use a 1st level Magic Weapon spell...

I think we're done here. :smallsigh:

Somebody needs to tell that DM to never run a game again. :smalltongue:

ericgrau
2011-01-23, 12:26 PM
Or failed 200 knowledge checks, and somehow managed to come with AMFs instead of corrupt weapons. Devas have DR/evil not DR/magic btw. But ya even with DR the wizards could have gone blasty at the very least.

gbprime
2011-01-23, 12:31 PM
Devas have DR/evil not DR/magic btw.

True enough. I was looking at the Savage Species class the OP referred to, which still lists them by 3.0 as having DR 10/+1.

But I still wonder how it is a 10th level fighter can't blow through that DR on every... oh nevermind. Just nevermind.

woodenbandman
2011-01-23, 01:35 PM
Oh no!!!~!@!@!~~!

Someone over the internet is not perfectly optimized!@!@~!@~!@~!

That would have made this contest EXTREMELY INTERESTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Taking out a guy in the surprise round with WIZARD CHEESE TIMES 200!!!!!!!!!!!

Every wizard on the universe should be as optimized as MINE!!!!!!~!~!~!@~!@!~@~!@~!

like... seriously guys? Seriously? You think it would have been EXTREMELY INTERESTING if the guy running the other side of this had killed the other guy with 200 magic missiles on turn one? What happened to sense of fair play and all that jazz?

Mac and Cheese
2011-01-23, 01:47 PM
Oh no!!!~!@!@!~~!

Someone over the internet is not perfectly optimized!@!@~!@~!@~!

That would have made this contest EXTREMELY INTERESTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Taking out a guy in the surprise round with WIZARD CHEESE TIMES 200!!!!!!!!!!!

Every wizard on the universe should be as optimized as MINE!!!!!!~!~!~!@~!@!~@~!@~!

like... seriously guys? Seriously? You think it would have been EXTREMELY INTERESTING if the guy running the other side of this had killed the other guy with 200 magic missiles on turn one? What happened to sense of fair play and all that jazz?

It crosses the line. There's a difference between "epic" and "stupid". How are 200 1st level spells unfair? The fact that he was fighting 200 wizards was the unfair part.

Comet
2011-01-23, 02:01 PM
Somebody needs to tell that DM to never run a game again. :smalltongue:

Thank G*d for that small tongue-smiley there, or I would have to throw a rant at you :smallwink:

Anyway, sure, there were some shortcuts and quirks in the scenario, but it was still a cool story. If a DM manages to run the game in a way that the player can later share as a cool story, then everything's going just dandy.

You guys are totally just jealous :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2011-01-23, 02:02 PM
Thank G*d for that small tongue-smiley there, or I would have to throw a rant at you :smallwink:

Anyway, sure, there were some shortcuts and quirks in the scenario, but it was still a cool story. If a DM manages to run the game in a way that the player can later share as a cool story, then everything's going just dandy.

You guys are totally just jealous :smalltongue:

Thank Pelor for that small-tongue smiley, or I would have to throw fruit at you.:smallwink:

Though I guess I am jealous - if my DM was that bad at DMing, I can only imagine the crazy stuff I'd be able to pull over him.

Comet
2011-01-23, 02:12 PM
On a related note:
Why halflings? I'm genuinely curious about what twist of the tale could have driven you to slaughter the small folk, in particular, by the hundreds.

It seems like there's some history there, is all I'm saying.

Czin
2011-01-23, 02:58 PM
On a related note:
Why halflings? I'm genuinely curious about what twist of the tale could have driven you to slaughter the small folk, in particular, by the hundreds.

It seems like there's some history there, is all I'm saying.

He obviously was driven to small-folk hating madness by reading the hobbit. :smalltongue:

Sims
2011-01-23, 03:33 PM
On a related note:
Why halflings? I'm genuinely curious about what twist of the tale could have driven you to slaughter the small folk, in particular, by the hundreds.

It seems like there's some history there, is all I'm saying.

LOL its actually because of something I said outside the game hahaha! I said halflings were lame (I was joking lol but my DM got really pissed becuz its his favorite race)

Elfin
2011-01-23, 03:38 PM
Ah, so the obvious answer was to spontaneously send an army of furious and ridiculously incompetent halflings at you?

gbprime
2011-01-23, 03:42 PM
LOL its actually because of something I said outside the game hahaha! I said halflings were lame (I was joking lol but my DM got really pissed becuz its his favorite race)

He sure did a poor job of championing his favorite race then. :smallfrown:


Someone over the internet is not perfectly optimized!@!@~!@~!@~!

We're not talking optimization. We're talking basic functionality. You're telling me 200 level 10 wizards could not, between them, come up with anything 4th level or higher that ignored spell resistance or just sucked down the 50% chance to get around SR and do 100 HP of damage? Then those wizards don't deserve to keep breathing.

Would have been less fun if they were 10th level druids instead of wizards. Source material would have you believe that halflings have more druids anyway. And fending off a flock of 200 spellcasting Dire Hawks would be a LOT less fun. (Slaying Arrow? I'm sorry, that's a hawk, not a halfling.)

Oh sorry, 400 Dire Hawks. Animal Companions. =)

Sims
2011-01-23, 03:42 PM
Ah, so the obvious answer was to spontaneously send an army of furious and ridiculously incompetent halflings at you?

Well, my bragging also had a little to do with it XD. (funny that the guy playing an Angel was prideful huh?)

Elfin
2011-01-23, 06:30 PM
Why wouldn't angels be prideful, seeing as they're obscenely powerful, have basically infinite resources at their disposal, and are pretty much stick-up-the-ass incarnate? Not to mention the military hierarchies of the battlegrounds between them and the fiends or their black and white view of morality.

Siosilvar
2011-01-23, 06:43 PM
We're not talking optimization. We're talking basic functionality. You're telling me 200 level 10 wizards could not, between them, come up with anything 4th level or higher that ignored spell resistance or just sucked down the 50% chance to get around SR and do 100 HP of damage? Then those wizards don't deserve to keep breathing.

At least 20 of them should've been able to cast Ice Storm, with completely random spell selection from core spells only.

And if they're casting Antimagic Fields, they've got to be at least 11th level.

Chain Lightning? Disintegrate? This is core-only...

Nevertheless, it is a bit more impressive given you were actually 11th level instead of 31st, but Wizards have a higher Intelligence score than that...

Mando Knight
2011-01-23, 07:02 PM
At least 20 of them should've been able to cast Ice Storm, with completely random spell selection from core spells only.

Angels are immune to cold.

gbprime
2011-01-23, 07:25 PM
Angels are immune to cold.

Check the Savage Species progression. The only immunities he has at 11th are Electricity and Petrification. Acid and Cold don't come along til later, and otherwise he just has fire resistance 10.

Mando Knight
2011-01-23, 08:44 PM
Check the Savage Species progression. The only immunities he has at 11th are Electricity and Petrification. Acid and Cold don't come along til later, and otherwise he just has fire resistance 10.

Ah, you're right. I keep forgetting to check the Savage Species progression, and just keep going off of the statblock for a full-up Astral Deva. :smallsigh:

Sitzkrieg
2011-01-24, 01:16 AM
And fending off a flock of 200 spellcasting Dire Hawks would be a LOT less fun. (Slaying Arrow? I'm sorry, that's a hawk, not a halfling.)

Well, if we're being technical, slaying arrows do work against wildshape'd druids, since they keep their Humanoid(Halfling) type. As does favored enemy (a ranger just understands how halflings fight, even when they're hawks. How? Who knows?)

On a more general note, worse equally bad decisions have been made in real life. See the Charge of the Light Brigade, in which over 600 men were accidentally ordered to charge encamped artillery on horseback, and lost half their force in a single charge.

ffone
2011-01-24, 02:19 AM
Every time he'd fly one up, I'd simply move and fire. (It took awhile)

So in other words you didn't fight a battle vs 200 foes, but 200 consecutive (and identical) battles vs one foe? Every one of which refused to use a ranged weapon/spell vs a flying foe?

Does the DM know that when he has multiple NPCs, they each get a turn every round, rather than having to pick only 1 of them like in chess? B/c that's what it sounds like.

Why are Wizards using AMFs to fly into melee vs a character with great physical atttributes?

Also - what? You had a slaying arrow for every enemy? Those cost what, >2000 gp a pop? So you burned 400,000 gp of wealth on the fight?

Sillycomic
2011-01-24, 03:00 AM
Thats actually a cool idea.

You're an 11th level character with 400,000 gold hired to protect a city against 200 halfling fighters and 200 halfling wizards who will use bad tactics against you... what do you do?

gbprime
2011-01-24, 10:28 AM
You're an 11th level character with 400,000 gold

If you have 400,000 gold, why would you hire out to fight 400 people your same level?

I know what I would do, and it starts with "Candle of Invocation". :smallamused:

Myth
2011-01-24, 12:16 PM
Thats actually a cool idea.

You're an 11th level character with 400,000 gold hired to protect a city against 200 halfling fighters and 200 halfling wizards who will use bad tactics against you... what do you do?

The town is besieged by 400 poorly optimized Halflings played by an inept DM. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the town? :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, your DM fails. HE FAILS. HARD. He:

- Attempted to punish your character because of an OOC remark.
- Completely borked up the mechanics of CR, level appropriate encounters and such - he basically wanted to just kill you.
- He is so bad at DnD his "rocks fall" check FAILED and you actually won.
- He didn't know that Wizards can cast Fly since level 5. And that they have all Knowledges as Class skills, and that at least 40 out of those 200 would have it maxed. Some would have Collector of Stories.
- He didn't know that 200 Orbs of Force would have killed you in one round.

... I'd stop playing with this guy If I were you.

Defiant
2011-01-24, 12:36 PM
I can similarly boast that I can kill 1000 level 20 fighters as a level 1 wizard, with them walking up to me one by one, going to sleep, and me coup-de-gracing them. :smallwink:


Or even better, 1000 level 20 fighters outfitted with only a sap each, and me as a level 1 warforged commoner. Sure it's bad tactics and poor selection of equipment/class features, but I can kill them all!

The Glyphstone
2011-01-24, 12:38 PM
I can similarly boast that I can kill 1000 level 20 fighters as a level 1 wizard, with them walking up to me one by one, going to sleep, and me coup-de-gracing them. :smallwink:

That's nothing. I once killed a million overdeities when they handed me godslaying artifact swords of prophecy and took turns kneeling down to let me decapitate them.:smallwink:

Myth
2011-01-24, 12:39 PM
I can similarly boast that I can kill 1000 level 20 fighters as a level 1 wizard, with them walking up to me one by one, going to sleep, and me coup-de-gracing them. :smallwink:

You can't sleep things with more than 4 HD, which a lvl 20 Fighter has. Not to mention they can be Elves and thus immune to sleep. Not to mention you'd run out of spells.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-24, 12:40 PM
You can't sleep things with more than 4 HD, which a lvl 20 Fighter has. Not to mention they can be Elves and thus immune to sleep. Not to mention you'd run out of spells.

Umm...he didn't say he'd cast Sleep on them. They'd just lie down and fall asleep at his feet.

Myth
2011-01-24, 12:41 PM
Umm...he didn't say he'd cast Sleep on them. They'd just lie down and fall asleep at his feet.

Why be a Wizard then? The obvious choice is Rogue 1 as they get SA which is added to the CDG check. Level 20 Fighters have a high fort save and if even one survives you're screwed. Might as well make the best of it.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-24, 12:45 PM
Why be a Wizard then? The obvious choice is Rogue 1 as they get SA which is added to the CDG check. Level 20 Fighters have a high fort save and if even one survives you're screwed. Might as well make the best of it.

Because wizards are funnier. And why would he be screwed if one passes the save? They'd just wake up, say "no, the jugular vein is on this side of my neck, get it right this time", and go back to sleep.

Thespianus
2011-01-24, 12:46 PM
Sound insane right? Wrong! (Whats funny is I prayed to win, and then when we rolled initiatives, I got a Natural 20!!!!)

I think the praying part is the most awesome.

You desired to invoke the powers of the omnipotent creator of the universe to roll high on your initiative check in a game where you impersonated one of said creators most holy beings, and the reason you prayed to win was so you can fake-slay hordes of fake humanoids who normally are portrayed as "fond of an unadventurous bucolic life of farming, eating, and socializing" (Wikipedia entry for "Hobbit").

That *IS* awesome. :smallwink:

Czin
2011-01-24, 12:49 PM
Because wizards are funnier. And why would he be screwed if one passes the save? They'd just wake up, say "no, the jugular vein is on this side of my neck, get it right this time", and go back to sleep.

But what if the fighters didn't need sleep? Like if they were level 20 fighter max hit dice Earth Elementals.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-24, 12:59 PM
But what if the fighters didn't need sleep? Like if they were level 20 fighter max hit dice Earth Elementals.

Obviously, it'd just take longer. Instead of falling asleep, they'd patiently lie down in front of him (for the -4 Prone AC penalty). He'd need a better weapon, though; a greatsword or greataxe at least, to break their DR10/-. The nonproficiency isn't important, since he only hits on 20's anyways and they're critical-proof.

Defiant
2011-01-24, 01:00 PM
Why be a Wizard then?

Because it gives the impression that me being a wizard and my opponents being fighters has anything to do with the outcome of my battle.

Defiant
2011-01-24, 01:01 PM
Because wizards are funnier. And why would he be screwed if one passes the save? They'd just wake up, say "no, the jugular vein is on this side of my neck, get it right this time", and go back to sleep.

This :smallbiggrin:

Hey, they may have used bad tactics (what with walking up to me and going to sleep), but at least I can do it!

Czin
2011-01-24, 01:04 PM
Obviously, it'd just take longer. Instead of falling asleep, they'd patiently lie down in front of him (for the -4 Prone AC penalty). He'd need a better weapon, though; a greatsword or greataxe at least, to break their DR10/-. The nonproficiency isn't important, since he only hits on 20's anyways and they're critical-proof.

I wonder what a level 20 fighter max hit dice elder earth elemental would look like in +5 barding full plate armor. But of course with tactics as bad as the op's gm's you can kill any amount of any foe with any character and weapon/spell.

Myth
2011-01-24, 01:15 PM
You obviously can't kill a Pit Fiend. At level 1 you can't bypass it's Regeneration. You can probably kill a Balor, but then, Death Throes.

true_shinken
2011-01-24, 01:15 PM
Heightened Magic Missile is ridiculous. If I was playing a deva and some random spellcaster hit me with this, I'd hit the DM with the PHB over the head.
The only reason for a heightened magic missile is to get through globe of invulnerability. Do you really prepare this spell everyday?!

Also, they were halfling wizards. Is it too weird to believe all of these peace-loving folk had non-killing spells prepared, such as sleep, deep slumber and charm person?

Myth
2011-01-24, 01:17 PM
Heightened Magic Missile is ridiculous. If I was playing a deva and some random spellcaster hit me with this, I'd hit the DM with the PHB over the head.
The only reason for a heightened magic missile is to get through globe of invulnerability. Do you really prepare this spell everyday?!

Also, they were halfling wizards. Is it too weird to believe all of these peace-loving folk had non-killing spells prepared, such as sleep, deep slumber and charm person?

It's hard to believe they won't have Orbs of X, be it Sound, Force or something else he isn't immune at that level.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-24, 01:18 PM
You obviously can't kill a Pit Fiend. At level 1 you can't bypass it's Regeneration. You can probably kill a Balor, but then, Death Throes.

Sure you can. Pit Fiends grant Wishes, so it generously Wishes you up a +5 Holy Silver weapon before going to sleep.

true_shinken
2011-01-24, 01:20 PM
It's hard to believe they won't have Orbs of X, be it Sound, Force or something else he isn't immune at that level.
Because non-core damaging spells are definitely something every GM should use on peace-loving halfling wizards.

I think this is really amusing. I can totally see the wizards and fighters not wanting to fight... but then they should have fled.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-24, 01:23 PM
Because non-core damaging spells are definitely something every GM should use on peace-loving halfling wizards.

I think this is really amusing. I can totally see the wizards and fighters not wanting to fight... but then they should have fled.

Um....they're swarming an angel en masse with no regards to their survival insistent on killing him - it'd make sense they would bring killing magic with them. Why are they necessarily peace-loving again anyways? Halflings don't have Vow of Nonviolence as a racial bonus feat, they can totally stab/shoot/Magic Missile you in the kidneys if they feel like it (easier than others, as it's closer to their eye level).

Myth
2011-01-24, 01:28 PM
Because non-core damaging spells are definitely something every GM should use on peace-loving halfling wizards.

I think this is really amusing. I can totally see the wizards and fighters not wanting to fight... but then they should have fled.

At 10th level your general Wizard will have an int of 20. That implies he is what we consider a genius IRL. What would Einstein rank as? Around 26-28 possibly.

As such every Wizard will know how and what to prepare, and why. Level 10 Wizards usually use Fly and/or Phantom Steed. They should have Feather Fall or a ring of Feather Fall on seeing as how no Wizard spends combat on the ground after level 5.

They should always have a memorization of Teleport, or a scroll of it at the very least. Level 10 without Teleport? Really?

Even if they are the pacifists you describe (as a race), the Wizards will be smart enough to know that there are dangers lurking. You don't get to level 10 without fighting some monsters who love to feast on Halfling flesh.

There should be hostile countries/races to be prepared and vigilant against.

200 Wizards means a large metropolis or at least the presence of a strong Wizard's Cabal/College/Order. This means that at least one will be the leader and thus be a higher level.

Even without Orbs of X which are the usual answer to SR and thus every Wizard must have, there are other spells they could have used. Reverse Arrows, Stoneskin, Summon Monster...

Halfing Favored Class is Rogue. They are not a race of Mary Sues. And even if they were, the Wizards will be smart enough to be adequate defenders of the community or their own hides at the very least.

Your argument is invalid.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-24, 01:28 PM
Heightened Magic Missile is ridiculous. If I was playing a deva and some random spellcaster hit me with this, I'd hit the DM with the PHB over the head.
The only reason for a heightened magic missile is to get through globe of invulnerability. Do you really prepare this spell everyday?!

Also, they were halfling wizards. Is it too weird to believe all of these peace-loving folk had non-killing spells prepared, such as sleep, deep slumber and charm person?

Yeah it's almost like

just maybe

I wasn't being serious

Edit: Moreover, I would find it strange that 200 wizards organized to fight an angel and never came up with a plan that could beat an angel. Why wouldn't all the wizards with heighten throw heightened magic missiles?

true_shinken
2011-01-24, 01:30 PM
Yeah it's almost like

just maybe

I wasn't being serious.

How dare you say you weren't serious? You were totally serious! I know you were! :smallbiggrin:

Thespianus
2011-01-24, 01:36 PM
Because non-core damaging spells are definitely something every GM should use on peace-loving halfling wizards.

But 200 flying 10th level Halfling Fighters is something you see every day in a peaceful, sleepy halfling settlement. :smallamused:

true_shinken
2011-01-24, 01:38 PM
But 200 flying 10th level Halfling Fighters is something you see every day in a peaceful, sleepy halfling settlement. :smallamused:
Don't you?! If every halfling could fly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoSJKQmloVg)...

gbprime
2011-01-24, 01:55 PM
I think this is really amusing. I can totally see the wizards and fighters not wanting to fight... but then they should have fled.

Maybe they were hungry and the Deva had angel food cake? :smallwink:

Or maybe the Deva dreamed the whole thing and there's a Halfling Wizard standing over his sleeping form with a knife? :smallamused:

elpollo
2011-01-24, 02:52 PM
The town is besieged by 400 poorly optimized Halflings played by an inept DM. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the town? :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, your DM fails. HE FAILS. HARD. He:

- Attempted to punish your character because of an OOC remark.
- Completely borked up the mechanics of CR, level appropriate encounters and such - he basically wanted to just kill you.
- He is so bad at DnD his "rocks fall" check FAILED and you actually won.
- He didn't know that Wizards can cast Fly since level 5. And that they have all Knowledges as Class skills, and that at least 40 out of those 200 would have it maxed. Some would have Collector of Stories.
- He didn't know that 200 Orbs of Force would have killed you in one round.

... I'd stop playing with this guy If I were you.

Not everyone is optimised. Not everyone has access to every book. Not everyone goes on to the internet and is shown how to optimise. Quite frankly I'd thank him for a fun game and offer to change roles so I could run for someone who's not going to do fifteen-squintillion damage on a charge.



At 10th level your general Wizard will have an int of 20. That implies he is what we consider a genius IRL. What would Einstein rank as? Around 26-28 possibly.

Obligatory article on calibrating expectations to D&D scores. (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html)



As such every Wizard will know how and what to prepare, and why. Level 10 Wizards usually use Fly and/or Phantom Steed. They should have Feather Fall or a ring of Feather Fall on seeing as how no Wizard spends combat on the ground after level 5.

Some do. My dwarf wizard who feels more comfortable on the ground, though? He's fine walking.



Even if they are the pacifists you describe (as a race), the Wizards will be smart enough to know that there are dangers lurking. You don't get to level 10 without fighting some monsters who love to feast on Halfling flesh.

Why not? Levels are an arbitrary measure of power. Players gain experience to have a measure of the increase in their power, but it's not necessary, and certainly isn't a fundamental rules of the game world. Why is that wizard level 10? It's because he's damn talented at magic, that's why.


200 Wizards means a large metropolis or at least the presence of a strong Wizard's Cabal/College/Order. This means that at least one will be the leader and thus be a higher level.

Halfling Wizard college class of 103 reunion. And why would one have to be a higher level?


Even without Orbs of X which are the usual answer to SR and thus every Wizard must have, there are other spells they could have used. Reverse Arrows, Stoneskin, Summon Monster...

Some people have different expectations from D&D than "Win the fight". Not everyone optimises to maximum potential.



Halfing Favored Class is Rogue. They are not a race of Mary Sues.

No, they're a race of hyper-optimised player character classes, apparantly. It's the Logan's Run of character classes - as soon as someone makes the mistake of taking expert, bam! He's a gonner.

true_shinken
2011-01-24, 02:55 PM
Or maybe the Deva dreamed the whole thing and there's a Halfling Wizard standing over his sleeping form with a knife? :smallamused:
That would be awesome.

PersonMan
2011-01-24, 03:45 PM
Not everyone is optimised. Not everyone has access to every book.

This is less "they weren't optimized" and more like "they used utterly horrible tactics, when they would realistically have better ones, especially since a large number of them are very smart".

Czin
2011-01-24, 04:02 PM
This is less "they weren't optimized" and more like "they used utterly horrible tactics, when they would realistically have better ones, especially since a large number of them are very smart".

In fact I'd go as far as to say that if those halflings are representative of their species, then halfling kind should be extinct due to being utterly retarded. Those tactics were so bad that Sun Tzu is probably spinning in his grave.

Defiant
2011-01-24, 04:30 PM
No, they're a race of hyper-optimised player character classes, apparantly.

Must we go to such extremes? If they're not supposed to be hyper-optimized, are they supposed to be utterly negative-optimized?

We're talking here about basic common sense. These wizards, with a modicum of non-hyper-negative-optimization, could have easily killed their foe.

gbprime
2011-01-24, 05:24 PM
Must we go to such extremes? If they're not supposed to be hyper-optimized, are they supposed to be utterly negative-optimized?

We're talking here about basic common sense. These wizards, with a modicum of non-hyper-negative-optimization, could have easily killed their foe.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that by 10th level a wizard has asked himself "what if I get into a fight with an opponent who has Spell Resistance, or can cast one of those Minor Globe of Invulnerability spells like I can cast?" Even if he doesn't spend any feats to overcome the problem, selecting 1 or 2 spells in his spellbook to get around it seems like a sensible enough option for a guy with a 20 intelligence...

In fact, 20 intelligence is probably enough to ask a question like "what if my opponent won't stand still, or can fly or something?"

Siosilvar
2011-01-24, 05:46 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that by 10th level a wizard has asked himself "what if I get into a fight with an opponent who has Spell Resistance, or can cast one of those Minor Globe of Invulnerability spells like I can cast?" Even if he doesn't spend any feats to overcome the problem, selecting 1 or 2 spells in his spellbook to get around it seems like a sensible enough option for a guy with a 20 intelligence...

In fact, 20 intelligence is probably enough to ask a question like "what if my opponent won't stand still, or can fly or something?"

8 intelligence is enough to ask those questions. You might be pushing it around 4 or 5, though. :smallwink:

EDIT: Well, you can't cast a Globe with an 8 intelligence. But still...

elpollo
2011-01-24, 06:48 PM
This is less "they weren't optimized" and more like "they used utterly horrible tactics, when they would realistically have better ones, especially since a large number of them are very smart".


Must we go to such extremes? If they're not supposed to be hyper-optimized, are they supposed to be utterly negative-optimized?

We're talking here about basic common sense. These wizards, with a modicum of non-hyper-negative-optimization, could have easily killed their foe.

Sorry, I didn't by any means mean that they were well played. They were not, and I accept that. Myth, however, seemed to have a problem that they weren't optimised - that's what I was addressing with my post, since everyone else has already covered the lack of tactics from the halflings. What we have here is a new player enjoying a victory over a foe, and I strongly disagree that the fact that the foe was far from optimised is cause to never play with the DM again or whatever. I'm a fan of reductio ad absurdem: sue me.

Myth
2011-01-24, 07:49 PM
Not that they were not all Abrupt Jaunt Conjurers / Incatatrixes / Dweomerkeepers.

They were defying the common sense implied to go along with smart Wizards in DnD regardless of the setting or the DM's own ineptitude.

Your comment to my "they should have Reverse Arrows or Stoneskin" is completely pointless. Not everyone plays to win fights but no Wizard at level 10 prepares all useless spells who don't grant him either mobility, survivability, killling power or utility.

You conveniently ignored the Teleport question, as well as the actual RP perspective of a collective of 200 10th level Wizards, which are enough to take over a country with a mundane non-castery DnD army.

I'll ignore your Halfing College class as a poor attempt at humor. Your whole post is basically you arguing for the sake of arguing and being the devil's advocate. Which is OK with me, I'm a Libra. But your points don't make sense since you are implying I'm arguing high optimization and "winning DnD" where's I'm arguing roleplaying, common sense and a completely stupid DM who wants to kill his player character for an IRL remark (which you also conveniently ignored).

elpollo
2011-01-24, 08:21 PM
I didn't ignore anything. I could have repeated what others have said, but what's the point? Others have already said it.

Level 10 wizards prepare what they need. If a large group of powerful academic wizards who have never before seen conflict try to research a powerful spell or something, why would they need combat spells? They are in a safe location (guarded city or surrounded by 200 of their mates or whatever).

Say I call a meeting to discuss improving firearms. Would everyone bring a gun, or would everyone bring various blueprints/equations/formulae for explosives/however you make firearms these days?

Why would they prepare teleport if they weren't going anywhere? There must be hundreds of spells that help research or write or summon research assistants or whatever. These aren't listed in the player's handbook because D&D isn't primarily about this sort of stuff. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It doesn't mean everyone has to have the best spells prepared. It doesn't mean people expect fights constantly.

Who said anything about army (well, probably someone did, there're quite a few posts now)? I've been to events where more than 200 people have attended, and we never called ourselves an army. Potentially we are as much of an army as any force as large as ourselves throughout history (technically more so than some, as a few people today understand principles such as gunpowder which would certainly give us an edge), but that doesn't mean we all carry sticks in case we get attacked.

But yeah, as I said, I haven't ignored your points - I feel other people have sufficiently addressed them. You, however, have ignored a few of mine. NPCs are not PCs. They are not necessarily built for combat. There is no reason for them to be expecting combat, especially when they have 200 trained soldiers safeguarding them. Levels mean nothing to anyone except the players, spell levels included. An inexperienced DM does not equal a bad DM, a DM posing an apparantly impossible challenge dealt with in a totally possible and fair way is not necessarily trying to kill a player, some people like playing in ways different to you, blah blah blah.

I also don't get the astrology joke. Or your arguing for roleplaying by using a purely gamist perspective.

Pentachoron
2011-01-24, 08:37 PM
An inexperienced DM does not equal a bad DM, a DM posing an apparantly impossible challenge dealt with in a totally possible and fair way is not necessarily trying to kill a player, some people like playing in ways different to you, blah blah blah.



The rest of your post I didn't necessarily disagree with, but how is setting a 400 on one fight to be just one after another a possible way for it to go down except in ninja movies where the lips are out of synch? That's the only part of the scenario I had serious issues with regarding the dm.

Sillycomic
2011-01-24, 08:40 PM
Well, that and the only reason 400 halflings went after the character is because out of game he said that halflings suck, and the GM happened to like halflings.

If this was just an exercise on the GM's part, then I would let it slide. But if it was happening in a real game with the consequences of your character dying are real, then I would say the GM is not only inexperienced but also bad.

An inexperienced GM is not necessarily a bad GM.

A GM who hears an offhanded comment about how halflings suck and then sends 400 halflings at your character who use horrible tactics is both an inexperienced GM AND a bad GM.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-24, 09:00 PM
Level 10 wizards prepare what they need. If a large group of powerful academic wizards who have never before seen conflict try to research a powerful spell or something, why would they need combat spells? They are in a safe location (guarded city or surrounded by 200 of their mates or whatever).


How did they get to level 10 without seeing combat? They'd be dead of old age before level 5 in most cases. Besides, they weren't defending themselves from the angel, they were attacking the angel - so why would they not bring combat magic with them?

Myth
2011-01-24, 09:02 PM
I didn't ignore anything. I could have repeated what others have said, but what's the point? Others have already said it.

Level 10 wizards prepare what they need. If a large group of powerful academic wizards who have never before seen conflict try to research a powerful spell or something, why would they need combat spells? They are in a safe location (guarded city or surrounded by 200 of their mates or whatever).
Because they are not complete morons. Because they live in a world where monsters and undead are real. Because the whole academic thing is your own imagination and not presented as what happened in the game by the OP.



Why would they prepare teleport if they weren't going anywhere? There must be hundreds of spells that help research or write or summon research assistants or whatever. These aren't listed in the player's handbook because D&D isn't primarily about this sort of stuff. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It doesn't mean everyone has to have the best spells prepared. It doesn't mean people expect fights constantly.Teleport is a must have - either prepared or a scroll. Or you'd rather ride a mule to get where you are going. It can save your life and cannot be replicated by anything else. Spells for academics and things like that are pure imagination on your part. Yes DM fiat can defeat any and all class, character, race and so on.


Who said anything about army (well, probably someone did, there're quite a few posts now)? I've been to events where more than 200 people have attended, and we never called ourselves an army. Potentially we are as much of an army as any force as large as ourselves throughout history (technically more so than some, as a few people today understand principles such as gunpowder which would certainly give us an edge), but that doesn't mean we all carry sticks in case we get attacked. I did and perhaps did not word the sentence correctly. I meant to say that 200 level ten Wizards can take over a country by force, as they can steamroll a mundane DnD army. 200,000 level 1-3 Warriors for example, with a few level 5 fighters acting as lieutenants. My point was that 200 level ten Wizards are a force to be reckoned with inside the DnD universe.


But yeah, as I said, I haven't ignored your points - I feel other people have sufficiently addressed them. You, however, have ignored a few of mine. NPCs are not PCs. They are not necessarily built for combat. There is no reason for them to be expecting combat, especially when they have 200 trained soldiers safeguarding them. Not expecting combat is not the same thing as not preparing a single useful spell.


Levels mean nothing to anyone except the players, spell levels included. An inexperienced DM does not equal a bad DM, a DM posing an apparantly impossible challenge dealt with in a totally possible and fair way is not necessarily trying to kill a player, some people like playing in ways different to you, blah blah blah.

I also don't get the astrology joke. Or your arguing for roleplaying by using a purely gamist perspective.
You're and your - even I know about that, and English is not my native language. Not sure what gamist is. About the DM, see the posters above me.

Sitzkrieg
2011-01-25, 01:09 AM
Actually in this case the 'your' is mostly correct, as I believe he was using 'arguing' as a noun, which isn't exactly correct but is a pretty common alternative to argumentation, which is too long to bother with.

Grammar Nazi'ing aside, I think maybe we ought to keep this a little bit more in perspective. It sounds like the OP had a good time, and wanted to enjoy it a bit more. I say that's a perfectly fine thing to do. Also, he/she now knows that posting in the Playground is liable to get you three pages of character optimization instead of a pat on the back, but so be it.

Pentachoron
2011-01-25, 01:26 AM
Actually in this case the 'your' is mostly correct, as I believe he was using 'arguing' as a noun, which isn't exactly correct but is a pretty common alternative to argumentation, which is too long to bother with.

Grammar Nazi'ing aside, I think maybe we ought to keep this a little bit more in perspective. It sounds like the OP had a good time, and wanted to enjoy it a bit more. I say that's a perfectly fine thing to do. Also, he/she now knows that posting in the Playground is liable to get you three pages of character optimization instead of a pat on the back, but so be it.

That's just it, I don't think much of this thread was character optimization. Much more about basic DM competence, with maybe a little of basic character competence. It's not optimization to expect 400 creatures with ten levels in character classes to be able to take down an ECL 11 character.

Sitzkrieg
2011-01-25, 02:03 AM
Well, obviously it's not very hard to pick on a new guy. If the OP and DM actually ran through an entire 1 v 400 combat, they were probably having fun along the way, and I'd only truly pick on the DM if he had cheated to make the OP lose. Since he didn't, and they both enjoyed themselves, it's not really fair to call him a terrible DM, regardless of what the Playground's common expectations of a level 10 wizard's fighting strategy might be. It's just a game of make-believe.

MeeposFire
2011-01-25, 02:16 AM
I would think if I decided to attack a potentially powerful creature I would fight to win every time as most people do not like dying. It is usually considered a bad thing.

TroubleBrewing
2011-01-25, 02:32 AM
Especially since the next battle the halflings fight with this deva will no doubt include clerics who have not prepared any spells save healing magic, and monks.

ffone
2011-01-25, 04:26 AM
That's just it, I don't think much of this thread was character optimization. Much more about basic DM competence, with maybe a little of basic character competence. It's not optimization to expect 400 creatures with ten levels in character classes to be able to take down an ECL 11 character.

It's fun to play the same combat round 400 times over?

1. Halfling flies upward in vain attempt to engage physically superior foe in melee. N-1 other halflings do nothing that round, since DM thinks DnD is like chess and he can only move one each round.
2. Angel shoots slaying arrow. Halfling never rolls a 20 on that Fort save. N <- N-1.
3. Goto 1.

Sitzkrieg
2011-01-25, 02:32 PM
I can see it being fun. First, the Deva had a limited amount of ammunition, and eventually had to resort to using other tactics, which probably added a little bit of interest. Second, the chances of a level 11 character losing were reasonably high, even using the tactics the halflings used. Any one of those halflings, even it got close enough, would have put the character in a tight spot with the antimagic field by wasting the Devas time while others closed in. Haven't you ever played Space Invaders? The point isn't that the enemy fleet is using a good strategy! The player has them outgunned, outmaneuvered, and out-strategied. The point is that it's fun to kill hundreds of enemies in a row.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-25, 03:16 PM
Well, obviously it's not very hard to pick on a new guy. If the OP and DM actually ran through an entire 1 v 400 combat, they were probably having fun along the way, and I'd only truly pick on the DM if he had cheated to make the OP lose. Since he didn't, and they both enjoyed themselves, it's not really fair to call him a terrible DM, regardless of what the Playground's common expectations of a level 10 wizard's fighting strategy might be. It's just a game of make-believe.

How do we know they both enjoyed themselves? It's clear the Op had a ton of fun (which is, indeed, the important bit in the end), but the DM was motivated by petty OOC spite to conduct the fight in the first place, so he may not have enjoyed it at all watching his precious halflings be cut down one at a time, or two at a time once the Deva started shooting down the fighters carrying wizards in their arms. We'd need the OP to clarify the DM's reaction to the victory to determine that.

Sims
2011-01-25, 06:56 PM
How do we know they both enjoyed themselves? It's clear the Op had a ton of fun (which is, indeed, the important bit in the end), but the DM was motivated by petty OOC spite to conduct the fight in the first place, so he may not have enjoyed it at all watching his precious halflings be cut down one at a time, or two at a time once the Deva started shooting down the fighters carrying wizards in their arms. We'd need the OP to clarify the DM's reaction to the victory to determine that.

OH that LMFAO! He was very bitter towards me for about a month. He didn't completely kick me out, but during the campaign (I was still brave enough to continue with this group, but mostly out of curiosity) he kept trying to pit me up against stronger demons.

I'll tell you about the Ice Devil fight some other time. And the Level 20 Half Fiend Minotaur General. (I swear to GOD I am not making that up. He wiped out my entire team.)

The Glyphstone
2011-01-25, 07:04 PM
OH that LMFAO! He was very bitter towards me for about a month. He didn't completely kick me out, but during the campaign (I was still brave enough to continue with this group, but mostly out of curiosity) he kept trying to pit me up against stronger demons.

I'll tell you about the Ice Devil fight some other time. And the Level 20 Half Fiend Minotaur General. (I swear to GOD I am not making that up. He wiped out my entire team.)

Well, I think we answered that question.:smallbiggrin:

Czin
2011-01-25, 07:05 PM
OH that LMFAO! He was very bitter towards me for about a month. He didn't completely kick me out, but during the campaign (I was still brave enough to continue with this group, but mostly out of curiosity) he kept trying to pit me up against stronger demons.

I'll tell you about the Ice Devil fight some other time. And the Level 20 Half Fiend Minotaur General. (I swear to GOD I am not making that up. He wiped out my entire team.)

Your DM certainly knows how to hold a grudge, I'll give him that.

gbprime
2011-01-25, 07:28 PM
Well, I think we answered that question.:smallbiggrin:

Ah yes. Good old "DM versus the players" syndrome. :smallsigh:

Elfin
2011-01-25, 08:40 PM
...So...that's...
Really? Someone beats up a bunch of halflings, and they're immediately on the way to pariahood?
...
Interesting DM, there.

Worira
2011-01-25, 08:50 PM
On a totally unrelated note: writing random words or phrases in different colours is not a legitimate means of emphasis.

Elfin
2011-01-25, 09:03 PM
That's what you think.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-25, 09:18 PM
Aaaaaactually...



Excessively Embellished Formatting
This refers to using different colors for different words, using formatting to be rude or appear smarter than someone or generally going overboard with formatting. It's not using bold, underline, paragraphs and lists to make your post look nice and be easy to read. If your post looks like this one overall, you're fine. But if your post has sentences that look like this one, you're not.


Just sayin'.

Elfin
2011-01-25, 09:28 PM
...I knew that.

ithildur
2011-01-25, 09:34 PM
{Scrubbed}

Myth
2011-01-26, 06:28 AM
OH that LMFAO! He was very bitter towards me for about a month. He didn't completely kick me out, but during the campaign (I was still brave enough to continue with this group, but mostly out of curiosity) he kept trying to pit me up against stronger demons.

I'll tell you about the Ice Devil fight some other time. And the Level 20 Half Fiend Minotaur General. (I swear to GOD I am not making that up. He wiped out my entire team.)

This DM is full of it and you should probably quit or make him eat the DMG. Or both.

Acanous
2011-01-26, 08:12 AM
Just want to point out, astrology has changed. You're propably not what you think you are anymore. (http://charlieshow.com/new-zodiac-signs-2011-why-astrology-is-even-sillier-than-we-thought.html)

Coming out of a campeign where our DM was trying to kill at least one party member per session, giving us no loot whatsoever [Loot the dead bodies of your compatriots, when there's still enough of them left over] and we generally had to go multiple fights of higher than our CR in a row, per day, for negligable XP...
I can see why you want to crow about your win. 'Course, if your DM was a bit more inventive, he'd propably just hit you with Trap the Soul and call it done.

Sitzkrieg
2011-01-26, 02:14 PM
OH that LMFAO! He was very bitter towards me for about a month. He didn't completely kick me out, but during the campaign (I was still brave enough to continue with this group, but mostly out of curiosity) he kept trying to pit me up against stronger demons.

I'll tell you about the Ice Devil fight some other time. And the Level 20 Half Fiend Minotaur General. (I swear to GOD I am not making that up. He wiped out my entire team.)

To be irrationally positive, it could be a lot worse. At least he keeps playing fair when he's steaming mad and losing. I mean, once he's spawned the templated near epic creatures or irrationally large armies of high level characters, at least he admits defeat when the players beat them.

Czin
2011-01-26, 02:27 PM
To be irrationally positive, it could be a lot worse. At least he keeps playing fair when he's steaming mad and losing. I mean, once he's spawned the templated near epic creatures or irrationally large armies of high level characters, at least he admits defeat when the players beat them.

Though it does call his tactical ability into question. He manages to lose fights that are pretty much completely stacked into his favor, fights that if run by a tactically competent DM, would take a very skilled and pretty damned optimized party to beat after a significant amount of effort.

randomhero00
2011-01-26, 02:31 PM
Whats a Astral Deva? Never heard of it in my years of DnDing.

Czin
2011-01-26, 02:34 PM
Whats a Astral Deva? Never heard of it in my years of DnDing.

I assume that you're joking, because it's kind of hard to miss a monster that's in the first few pages of the monster manual.

In the case that you are being serious and aren't just pulling our legs, here's a link.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm

And a picture
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG12.jpg
The Astral Deva is the shortest of the three types of angels in the picture.

randomhero00
2011-01-26, 02:42 PM
I assume that you're joking, because it's kind of hard to miss a monster that in the first few pages of the monster manual.

In the case that you are being serious and aren't just pulling our legs, here's a link.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm

And a picture
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG12.jpg
The Astral Deva is the shortest of the three types of angels in the picture.

i recall hearing about them but no, i havent used one. Me and my friends dont use the MM very much.

Czin
2011-01-26, 02:45 PM
i recall hearing about them but no, i havent used one. Me and my friends dont use the MM very much.

I assume you make very heavy usage of homebrew, because it takes a lot of supplements to get as varied a bestiary as the first Monster Manual provides, the only supplement that even comes close in this regard in my opinion is the fiend folio, which has a dire shortage of Dragons and is fairly difficult to use independently of the Monster Manual.

elpollo
2011-01-26, 03:16 PM
{Scrubbed}

You've certainly made me smile.

Elfin
2011-01-26, 05:25 PM
'Course, if your DM was a bit more inventive, he'd propably just hit you with Trap the Soul and call it done.

Or a bit less inventive.