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View Full Version : [3.5] Apparently, the rules for Helpless overwrite Prone. Explain?



balistafreak
2011-01-22, 09:53 PM
So I got into a rules debate where one party insists that one cannot be Helpless and Prone at the same time.

Not that he's arguing that you can't be Helpless when laying on the ground - we're not that silly - but that when Helpless, the character is not further affected by the mechanical conditions of Prone.

This would lead to a Dying target on the ground, bleeding out, yadayadayada, not benefiting from the +4 AC against ranged attacks, and did not suffer -4 AC against melee attacks. (The part about penalty to melee attacks is not relevant, as he's, well, Helpless.)

I see no text indicating that the status conditions in any way overwrite or preclude each other. Proof with citation, please, because I've already fired all my arguments and I'm out of ammo. He steadfastly insists that they do.


Quite simply your wrong. If you wish to argue take it to the boards and ask the experts. Once a character falls under the helpless condition that condition overrides the prone condition.. ALWAYS. A prone character gets a bonus to range attacks because when they are CONCIOUS and prone they are still able to intelligently maneuver on the ground, and see the incoming attack.

However you want to argue it, you cannot be PRONE and HELPLESS. those two conditions fall under the same bracket of conditions unlike sickened or w/e example your are desperately trying to use to prove your invalid point. You can't compare apples and oranges, but you can compare different types of apples. If a Red apple is red then it CANNOT be a Green apple.

Waker
2011-01-22, 10:00 PM
While I can sort of understand the reasoning here, it says nowhere that a prone target is using his position to his advantage. I think it has to do more with the fact that as you are lying on the ground, you present less of a target to ranged attacks. Thus I would say that a creature who was rendered helpless would gain the benefits of prone against a ranged attack. It wouldn't double up the bonus to hit in the melee though, since they are the same type of bonus.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-22, 10:03 PM
They can both apply just fine, if for example, he is tied up and laid on the ground. Similarly, character sleeping on the ground is both prone and helpless.

It is possible to have a helpless character who is not prone as well. Hold Person basically freezes you, and you'll still be standing even though you're paralyzed and therefore helpless.

Dying + prone depends on whether you rule dying characters fall down. I do.

shuyung
2011-01-23, 12:51 AM
I'm not entirely certain that the two of you are arguing the same thing. If your friend had simply stopped here


Once a character falls under the helpless condition that condition overrides the prone condition.

he would be most probably correct. In any case where a character starts with a Dex of >7, the bonus to ranged attacks from being prone is at least canceled by the penalty of having an effective Dex of 0 from being helpless. They are both factored in, however. You are correct that helpless does not overwrite prone, but he is mostly correct that helpless overrides prone. Fun with language. However, he does go off into the weeds with the rest of his argument, I will admit.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-23, 01:04 AM
A prone character gets a bonus to range attacks because when they are CONCIOUS and prone they are still able to intelligently maneuver on the ground, and see the incoming attack.

This is the crux of the argument, right?

Because that's flat-out wrong. Go have your friend lay down on the ground and throw a couple of rubber balls at him. See if he can move and dodge it without getting to his feet or knees. Now imagine doing that with arrows. Or bullets.

You get a bonus against ranged attacks because you're presenting a much smaller profile to the attacker. It has nothing to do with dodging. Hence why even modern militaries, with weapons that move quite a bit faster then the speed of sound, will still go prone.

Godskook
2011-01-23, 01:24 AM
You get a bonus against ranged attacks because you're presenting a much smaller profile to the attacker. It has nothing to do with dodging. Hence why even modern militaries, with weapons that move quite a bit faster then the speed of sound, will still go prone.

What I was going to start with ^

But, I'll add some reading from the SRD:


Condition Summary

If more than one condition affects a character, apply them all. If certain effects can’t combine, apply the most severe effect. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm)

The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.



A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.



Knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having current hit points between -1 and -9, or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.

1.Conditions stack unless otherwise noted, as per the first quote.
2.Nothing in any of the relevant conditions note otherwise.
3(optional).Prone calls the prone character the 'defender'. Note that this designation is also used in the helpless condition, and thereby, doesn't imply consciousness.

rayne_dragon
2011-01-23, 01:26 AM
If a Red apple is red then it CANNOT be a Green apple.

So... he's never seen an apple that is both red and green? Because it seems quite common to see apples that are part red and part green.

Anyways, to address the actual topic, I don't think there is anywhere where it is specifically written that prone and helpless do or do not stack. Looking at the SRD, though, helpless, dying, and unconcious all say nothing about being prone or requiring a move action to stand up again, so (if the rulebook that I don't have at the moment says the same thing) you could argue that being helpless or unconcious doesn't mean you fall down, and even if it does, you don't require an action to stand up again. I think that ought to make it clear that you have to be prone and helpless at the same time.

I'm also not sure that this is really a big enough issue to argue about though; does that prone bonus/penalty matter that much? sometimes it can be better just to just agree to disagree and not waste your effort on it anymore.

Edit: well, looks like I should have looked at the general rule for the stacking of conditions :smalltongue:

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-23, 01:33 AM
Are there really people who rule that dying and unconsciousness don't typically result in falling prone?

Have you ever fallen asleep standing up? I assure you it'll be a temporary state, at least most of the time.

huttj509
2011-01-23, 02:10 AM
Are there really people who rule that dying and unconsciousness don't typically result in falling prone?

Have you ever fallen asleep standing up? I assure you it'll be a temporary state, at least most of the time.


Well, once your 'friend' wanders by and decides to have a laugh it's temporary...

Kuma Kode
2011-01-23, 02:17 AM
As has been said, the two stack. The only ones that don't stack are those that logically can't (such as the modifiers for running at different speeds or standing/kneeling/prone) or if they're actually just parts of a gradient, single effect (Shaken/Frightened/Panicked or Sickened/Nauseated). Even with the gradient ones, they "stack" in that two lower effects result in an upgrade, so two abilities that cause the Shaken condition combine into Frightened.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-23, 02:28 AM
Just to clarify something Kuma Kode said, two sickenings does NOT result in the nauseated condition as a general rule (individual effects might say so though). The only basic conditions I can think of that stack are fatigue/exhaustion and fear.

Fitz10019
2011-01-23, 03:21 AM
Looking at the SRD, though, helpless, dying, and unconcious all say nothing about being prone or requiring a move action to stand up again

That's because the helpless/dying/unconcious conditions would have to end before you'd be capable of standing up.

A helpless prone target would have these AC factors:
0 Dex (and normal AC penalties for this)
-4 AC v. melee (for position)
+4 AC v. ranged (for position)

Callista
2011-01-23, 03:24 AM
The bonus to attack doesn't matter because helpless characters can't attack. So, yes, I'd say the two conditions overlap--nowhere does it say they don't or that they cancel.

stainboy
2011-01-23, 07:07 AM
They can both apply just fine, if for example, he is tied up and laid on the ground. Similarly, character sleeping on the ground is both prone and helpless.do.

Funny thing is, this isn't true. The Sleep spell imposes the Helpless condition but not the Prone condition, and sleeping isn't mechanically defined anywhere else. I did a quick search on the SRD and couldn't find any spell that imposes both the prone and helpless conditions, so it seems like it's a one-or-the-other deal.

The rules state that a prone creature is lying on the ground, but they never state that all creatures lying on the ground are prone. P->Q does not mean that Q->P. A snake crawls along the ground, but it isn't prone, right?

However, the OP's friend is still incorrect by RAW, because the rules never say helplessness overrides proneness. If I trip a creature, then take my Improved Trip free attack to knock it into negative HP, the creature is both prone and helpless and has the mechanical effects of both conditions. I can even trip a dying creature and impose the prone condition on it even though it's already on the ground. No DM with a pulse would allow this nonsense but the rules won't stop me.

So anyway OP, the rules on this are dumb, you're both house-ruling without realizing it, and whoever is the DM is right.

MeeposFire
2011-01-23, 07:31 AM
One can be helpless and not prone.

A man fails to save against a sleep spell with his body up to his waist stuck in cement (he is in fact still standing think flesh to stone but only the bottom half is stone right now). He cannot fall prone but is helpless. In this case you get all the bonuses of helpless but not prone. If later you cast stone to flesh or otherwise eliminate the cement and the target falls down (either by push or you rule he would anyway since he is asleep) then he is helpless and prone and so you get both.

Silly situation yes but I hope it shows off the point.

OdinGOW
2011-01-23, 06:17 PM
LoL, First off the portion of my arguement he copied and pasted was after several days of ridiculous argueing after I was already extremely annoyed.

He did not include any of my past statements.

Like I said, once a character is HELPLESS that is a seperate condition in and of itself, as far as range attacks go, if a creature is considered helpless range attacks would follow the RULES for RANGE ATTACKS under the HELPLESS condition... which it specifically states that there is no penalty (or bonus) on range attacks vs helpless creature.

Since a Helpless creature as all of you have pointed out can be helpless in MANY different ways, the rules for helpless are written plain and simple for all of those conditions, as all of them fall under the "Helpless" condition.

A creature with 0 dex and -5 dex mod is what is used to represent the creatures inability to avoid attacks, and therefore would NOT recieve +4 BONUS to AC for being prone if they are helpless because they collapsed.

What started this arguement is the DM told us the troll "collapsed" and one player called the troll PRONE, and I corrected them saying it was HELPLESS, which I was correct on.

You cannot have both the mechanical aspects of PRONE and HELPLESS at the same time. As I will say again, once a creature enters the helpless state, all the rules for attacks/range have their own mechanic affects for THAT state ... if they are helpless, a condition that specifically says they receive no penalty (nor says anything about a bonus), they CANNOT at the SAME TIME, receive a bonus from the prone condition.

The +4 AC vs a Prone character for range attacks is vs a CONCIOUS creature/pc . As soon as they are Unconcious they are HELPLESS and range attacks vs that creature then follow the rules for range attacks vs a HELPLESS creature, not a prone one....

Waker
2011-01-23, 06:31 PM
Can you support to that by showing where it says you cannot be Prone and Helpless? I don't happen to have the Rules Compendium, so I have to go with what the DMG says.
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.... It then goes on to explain coup de grace.

Prone: The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Helpless can include creatures who are either standing, prone, frozen in place, whatever. The important factor isn't their position, it's the state they are in, so the helpless state just gives the specific rules for that. Now if a creature is unconscious and on the ground as your troll, they would overall have a -4 AC against melee attacks (both the helpless and prone give a -4 untyped modifier which wouldn't stack) and a -1 AC to ranged attacks (+4 from Prone and -5 from Helpless).

That's how I would rule it, unless a there is some rule I'm not aware of.

Siosilvar
2011-01-23, 06:33 PM
A creature with 0 dex and -5 dex mod is what is used to represent the creatures inability to avoid attacks, and therefore would NOT recieve +4 BONUS to AC for being prone if they are helpless because they collapsed. Armor Class includes much more than just "avoiding" attacks.


You cannot have both the mechanical aspects of PRONE and HELPLESS at the same time. As I will say again, once a creature enters the helpless state, all the rules for attacks/range have their own mechanic affects for THAT state ... if they are helpless, a condition that specifically says they receive no penalty (nor says anything about a bonus), they CANNOT at the SAME TIME, receive a bonus from the prone condition.Why not? Both conditions can apply simultaneously. It's possible to be helpless without being prone (by being paralyzed, for example), so the +4 to hit with melee shouldn't stack (because they come from effectively the same thing; Helpless references prone), but there's nothing preventing a creature from being helpless and prone at the same time.


The +4 AC vs a Prone character for range attacks is vs a CONCIOUS creature/pc . As soon as they are Unconcious they are HELPLESS and range attacks vs that creature then follow the rules for range attacks vs a HELPLESS creature, not a prone one....Please reread the thread and relevant rules text. The AC bonus has nothing to do with consciousness. "Defender" doesn't imply an active defense; an inanimate object still has an AC of 5, after all.

[hr]

Alternate explanation: They're both listed on the "Favorable and Unfavorable Conditions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm)" table. All of those stack (e.g. being Blinded and Cowering, but behind cover nets no change to AC except losing Dexterity bonus). No exception is specifically noted, therefore there is none.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-23, 06:36 PM
A creature with 0 dex and -5 dex mod is what is used to represent the creatures inability to avoid attacks, and therefore would NOT recieve +4 BONUS to AC for being prone if they are helpless because they collapsed.

As I pointed out right up there, that's not how anything works ever.

The AC bonus against ranged attacks is a fairly decent model of how going prone reduces the profile you present to your attacker by a large degree.

It has absolutely nothing to do with dodging or anything else that would require being conscious.

If you doubt this, have someone fire a few arrows at you while you're lying down on the ground. See if you can dodge them without getting up.

And if you actually do this, I doubt we will ever hear from you again.


You cannot have both the mechanical aspects of PRONE and HELPLESS at the same time.

Yes, you can. Conditions are not mutually exclusive. A prone helpless character would take a -1 penalty to ranged AC overall, I believe.

senrath
2011-01-23, 06:39 PM
Yes, you can. Conditions are not mutually exclusive. A prone helpless character would take a -1 penalty to ranged AC overall, I believe.

More, actually, if they had a positive Dex mod, or less if they had a negative Dex mod.

Waker
2011-01-23, 06:41 PM
No, the -5 is the worst you can get. Helpless treats you as 0 Dex, regardless of your previous Dex, it doesn't just subtract from it.

senrath
2011-01-23, 06:44 PM
No, the -5 is the worst you can get. Helpless treats you as 0 Dex, regardless of your previous Dex, it doesn't just subtract from it.

If that's a response to me, that's what I was saying. It sets your Dex to 0, and thus imposes a -5 penalty to AC. But effectively the penalty is more if you had a positive Dex mod (since it goes from something >0 to -5), or less if you had a negative Dex mod (since it goes from something <0 to -5).

Powerfamiliar
2011-01-23, 06:45 PM
-5 is the worst you get, but the higher your Dex before going helpless the bigger the penalty you take to AC. Your new AC is basically Old AC - Dex mod (if positive) -5 (0 dex) + 4 (from prone).

OdinGOW
2011-01-23, 06:50 PM
God.............. Quite simply this is the problem in your guys arguements " A defender gets +4 vs range attacks"

Once a creature is Helpless, they are no long " A defender ", Not everything HAS to be written, as the way it is written means other certain things are not possible, and therefore doesnt need to specify for every single particular situation.

Like I keep saying, Range attacks have SEPERATE rules for a helpless creature than a Prone creature... If they are HELPLESS then they use the rules for ranged attacks that are outlined under the HELPLESS condition. PERIOD.

Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to get both mechanical results of being Prone AND Helpless. yes they can be prone when they are helpless, but prone describing their current physical positioning not the mechanical aspects and rules under the prone condition. Once they are helpless they fall under the rules set out for a helpless creature. PERIOD.

Oh and.. "See if you can dodge them without getting up." ... ummm rofl? You ever hear of rolling? hell, even just a half roll onto one side, one shoulder...

If you are going to argue please do so intelligently, dont debase your arguements by ONLY talking and pointing things out that is obviously only intended to prove your point rather than taking into account all aspects.

Yes I do know that a creature that falls down normally is harder to hit than one standing up... however, RAW does not distinguish that, it might not make perfect sense. But once rules are set out for a particular condition then it is THOSE rules that are used once a character enters that condition.

senrath
2011-01-23, 06:54 PM
Nope. Still a defender. Being helpless doesn't change that.

Keld Denar
2011-01-23, 06:56 PM
When attacking a small object, you add up the net sum of the ACs. They have a -5 dex penalty to AC because they are objects, but they have a size bonus to AC because they are small. A diminuative object would have an AC of 9, 10 minus 5 for dex +4 for size. A bonus can stack with a penalty to cancel it out.

Similarly, a prone creature has a smaller target surface area, represented by the +4 AC. So, he'd have a reduced AC due to being helpless, but an increased AC due to being prone. Its that simple.

Also, "defender" is a generic term for anything with an AC. The above mentioned object is a "defender", just the same as a helpless person is, just the same as the broad side of a barn is. If it has an AC, its a defender.

Plus, Godskook already cited the relevant rules passage, but here it is again:

Condition Summary

If more than one condition affects a character, apply them all. If certain effects can’t combine, apply the most severe effect.

Apply them all. Period. End of debate.

OdinGOW
2011-01-23, 06:57 PM
Nope. Still a defender. Being helpless doesn't change that.

Ummm yes it does.... A creature who is "helpless" is unable to defend themselves, therefore ... NOT a defender.

senrath
2011-01-23, 06:58 PM
Then explain why there's a section dealing with "Helpless Defenders".

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-23, 07:01 PM
God.............. Quite simply this is the problem in your guys arguements " A defender gets +4 vs range attacks"

Once a creature is Helpless, they are no long " A defender ", Not everything HAS to be written, as the way it is written means other certain things are not possible, and therefore doesnt need to specify for every single particular situation.

"Defender" is the word for "guy on the wrong end of the sword", or to put it more formally, "creature whose AC is being rolled against".

D&D terms≠RL terms


Like I keep saying, Range attacks have SEPERATE rules for a helpless creature than a Prone creature... If they are HELPLESS then they use the rules for ranged attacks that are outlined under the HELPLESS condition. PERIOD.

This is patently false. Two separate (or more!) conditions can apply to a creature. Otherwise you could, say, grapple a corpse and bring it back from the dead.


current physical positioning not the mechanical aspects and rules under the prone condition.

Wait, you're saying that a creature that is prone is not Prone?

That's practically Zen.


Oh and.. "See if you can dodge them without getting up." ... ummm rofl? You ever hear of rolling? hell, even just a half roll onto one side, one shoulder...


Oh, man.

No really, go out and try to dodge a stone, let alone an arrow, while you're lying on the ground.

Let me know how that works out for you.


If you are going to argue please do so intelligently, dont debase your arguements by ONLY talking and pointing things out that is obviously only intended to prove your point rather than taking into account all aspects.

This is the ever popular in debates we can't have on this forum "All Sides Deserve Equal Time" fallacy. The side that is objectively wrong does not deserve to be considered.

People have pointed out exactly why you are wrong. It says it right here in this thread.

Also, ease off on the caps lock, would you? It makes you look rather rude and condescending.

mootoall
2011-01-23, 07:04 PM
A defender is the person who is being attacked, end of story. You have an attacker and a defender, and that's how combat works.

Edit: Damn, swordsage'd ...

JamesonCourage
2011-01-23, 07:13 PM
Ummm yes it does.... A creature who is "helpless" is unable to defend themselves, therefore ... NOT a defender.


Then explain why there's a section dealing with "Helpless Defenders".

Owned.

And just so he knows where that is, it's on page 153 of the PHB.

Coidzor
2011-01-23, 07:29 PM
Just to clarify something Kuma Kode said, two sickenings does NOT result in the nauseated condition as a general rule (individual effects might say so though). The only basic conditions I can think of that stack are fatigue/exhaustion and fear.

That's not so much stacking as an existing status condition being advanced to a worse form of that family of status conditions though. Stacking just means they both apply, as far as I've seen it used.

Arbitrarity
2011-01-23, 07:36 PM
Quite simply your wrong. If you wish to argue take it to the boards and ask the experts.

Welp, that happened.
And ADDITIONALLY, while ranged attacks gain "no special bonus" against prone targets, ranged attacks don't get a penalty against prone targets anyways. Prone targets get a bonus to AC against ranged attacks.
These are distinct and somewhat important. Attack bonuses and penalized AC aren't interchangeable in certain cases (mostly involving Sapphire/Ruby/Diamond Nightmare Blades)

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-23, 07:51 PM
That's not so much stacking as an existing status condition being advanced to a worse form of that family of status conditions though. Stacking just means they both apply, as far as I've seen it used.

Sorry, it "escalates" and is "cumulative."

Anyway OdinGOW, you're going to have to make the case that one can't be both prone and helpless. Why don;t they both apply? What happens when you trip a paralyzed character?