Tweaking the Horizon Tripper

[fracas]

This started off when I decided to build a Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) as a backup character for my current game.

I started with a base build of Wolf Totem Barbarian2/Ranger3/Horizon Walker8, but wanted to mess with it a bit. One of the things I found in my research was that the Desert variant orc gets Endurance for free. Awesome! Not only does that mean I don't need Ranger3 for Endurance, but orc is a wonderful race for a tripper with its +4 Str bonus. That lead me to a bit stronger opening:

Warblade1/Wolf Barb2/Ranger2 (for Knowledge: Geography as a class skill). Not bad, and if I could somehow afford to put a 16 in Int, then have it knocked down to 14 for being an orc, I could even squeeze in a level of Fighter and get all 8 Geography ranks in one level of Ranger. Sweet.

We have a capable skill monkey either way: with Int <14 we have 12 skill points from two levels of ranger, and 4/lvl from our other classes. With Int >=14, we end up losing 4 skill points in the level of fighter, but gaining at least 1/lvl by our Int. Furthermore, the high Int build is desirable for Warblade synergy. And finally, with a +4 bonus to 3-5 skills from terrain mastery (depending on how important you think fatigue immunity and darkvision are), we can make a pretty potent focused skill monkey.

I have to wonder, though, if there's a way to work in another feat from Fighter2 (assuming an Int14 build). Dumping Warblade is an option, but then I'd lose Battle Clarity and Moment of Perfect Mind, leaving my Will and Ref saves wide open.

Trading a Fighter feat for Resolute (half BAB to Will as an immediate action) is of course a poor solution: I lose the feat I wanted Fighter for in the first place, and all the Warblade goodies too.

All that aside, the end build I'm working with right now has some important changes from Saph's:

Warblade1/Wolf Brb2/Fighter1/Ranger1/HW8/Warblade8
Base stats: 18 Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 10 Wis, 9 Cha
Modified: 23 Str (+1 lvl 8), 13 Dex (+1 lvl 4), 14 Con, 14 Int, 8 Wis, 7 Cha

As per Saph's post, I'd work with a suitably buffed guisarme+spiked gauntlets+longbow backup and some nice mithril chain.

A side benefit of the two-weapons approach is that in games where DR is a problem, you could optimize your three weapons to beat different DRs. Maybe a silver (or adamantine) guisarme and a cold iron gauntlet, plus a nice collection of aligned/elemental/alchemical arrows to be used as a catch-all when nothing else is working.

Terrain masteries and skills:
Saph's build uses Desert terrain mastery to avoid post-rage fatigue. In my experience combat very rarely breaks 10 rounds, and I'd expect this build to have at least 14 Con, meaning 7 round rages minimum (before buffing, and and item of Con boost should be pretty high on this guy's shopping list). Considering this build's place as a focused stat monkey, I'd say those +4 skill bonuses and possibly Darkvision (depending on the game world) are more valuable than being a bit sluggish in the closing rounds of a few extended battles here and there.

The terrain masteries I'd pick are Forest, Hills, Marsh, Plains (for a +4 to Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen) for the first four. Mountains seem worthless since your climb will already be solid with >22 Str before buffing, so Cavernous for Darkvision or Aquatic for +4 Swim seem like the way to go for #5.

Feats:
1 Power Attack
Wolf Brb: Improved Trip
3 Knock-Down
Ftr1 Combat Reflexes
6 Leap Attack
9 Shock Trooper
12 Bull Rush
15 Knock Back
18 Battle Jump

EWP Spiked Chain (and maybe a level of Exotic Weaponmaster after HW8) would be cool, but fitting it in would be tough. Stand Still seems like a decent backup option - if I get an AoO on something and can't trip it, I can at least choose to keep it from moving, especially since things that are hard to trip generally don't have great Reflex saves. But again, I don't see where I'd work it in. Extra Rage would also be nice - my attempt to squeeze in some more fighter levels should make sense by now.

So... thoughts? :)

[Lateral]

How are you getting Knockback? Desert Orcs don't have Powerful Build or anything.

[fracas]

Also, a side thought - If I understand right, Strongarm Bracers + a Large size guisarme would give me 15' reach, but not let me hit things 10' away... but a Large spiked chain would give me full coverage out to 15'. The bit of extra damage would just be icing at that point, and I'd have a lot more reason to work in Spiked Chain proficiency and that level of Exotic Weapon Master for Flurry. I'd be netting massive reach and a substantial damage boost from two sources (extra attack and mild damage die increase) for the low cost of a 6000gp item and one level in a class that already meshes well with the build (biggest down side? Only 2 skill pts/lvl).

I could work in EWM right after Shifting Mastery at 11, then continue HW and finish out with Warblade as planned.

Come to think of it, I could also drop in some fighter levels later on in place of Warblade.

[fracas]

Lateral - oops, good catch. That opens a space for something else. I'm thinking Extra Rage is probably more useful than Stand Still, but EWP: Spiked Chain could be better than either especially if I can get 15' reach from Strongarm Bracers.

[Coidzor]

The size of the weapon doesn't figure into its reach, except for when a reach weapon is too small for its wielder, in which case it doesn't act as a reach weapon for that wielder. So strongarm bracers and a large reach weapon in the hands of a medium sized character don't grant large size reach. Reach just checks the base creature's natural reach and whether the weapon is a reach weapon or not.

Hence why a human with the Titan bloodline that can wield a gargantuan creature's warhammer (which is larger than he is himself, mind) but still only strike creatures 5' away without throwing it.

[fracas]

Ahh, makes sense. Oh well.

So... is a spiked chain/Exotic Weapon Master worth it even without the extra reach?

[fracas]

Side benefit of this build: between having 24 Str by level 12 without buffing, a +2 synergy bonus to jump from having 5 ranks in Tumble, and a +4 bonus to jump for having a 40' move (+4 for every 10' of move speed beyond 30'), you can get some crazy checks.

Mine has +2 gauntlets of ogre power and at lvl 8 has a +24 to Jump. Yikes. Leap Attack works automatically unless I roll a 1... and it's easier to land in a threatening square with a reach weapon.

I'm also thinking the spiked chain plus exotic weapon master will be a good mid-high level addition, more for the Flurry than the chain cheese. At that point you don't need the different base materials trick with the guisarme and gauntlets to overcome DR since you'll have access to the Adaptable enhancement, and the extra flurry damage is going to be really useful at that point.

Side note: Adaptable would seem to work well with Stand Still, since it keys off hitting the opponent rather than doing damage.

Enemy charges, you make your AoO with Stand Still, do no damage but Adaptable aligns your weapon to whatever it needs to break DR, and then you go to town on them.

[fracas]

Upon closer examination of the Warblade, it really doesn't seem to add as much as I first thought. The Warblade guide, for example, lists almost all of the first level stances and maneuvers as solid only at low levels and I tend to agree with that analysis. The most valuable ability seems obviously subbing Concentration for a Will save with Moment of Perfect Mind, with more minor benefits from Minotaur's Charge and Battle Clarity. MoPM is nice and all, but costs a fair number of skill points to be really worth it, and those points really have no purpose except buffing Will until late levels when you can take more Warblade.

Swordsage seems like a better option, with 2 more skill points (and a sweet x6 multiplier at first level), good Ref and Will (good Ref for one level roughly equates to Battle Clarity, and good Will is a nice freebie since you can still get MoPM as a Swordsage), and +1 bonuses to initiative and attacks via free weapon focus.

Some builds may also benefit from taking Swordsage2 and getting Wis to AC *in light armor*.

Or it might be best to dump Warblade/Swordsage entirely and just pick up that second level of Fighter instead. I don't see any great way of getting out of Ranger so Ftr2 comes entirely at the expense of Warblade/Swordsage.

As a final thought, water orcs get an extra +2 Con. Going Ranger3 gets free Endurance as per Saph's build, so it's really up to player preference whether +2 Con is worth two levels in a less optimal class. I tend to lean toward no: Ranger 2-3 offers little of real value, while Ftr1-2 offers serious advantages.

Additionally, the +2 Con equates to +1 Fort and 1hp/lvl. Our Fort is already through the roof so no worries there, and 1hp/lvl in an already tanky build seems like small beans compared to a couple feats.

I'll put up my preferred build in the next post.

[fracas]

Wolf Totem Brb2/Ftr2/Rgr1/HW7/Exotic Weapon Master2/Full BAB class6
34-point buy: Str17, Dex13, Con14, Int15, Wis10, Cha8
After Desert Orc modifiers: Str21, Dex13, Con14, Int13, Wis8, Cha6
Level points:
4: Int (gets you to 14 before the Ranger level so you can get all 8 skill points at once), 8: Str, 12: Dex, 16: Str, 20: Str
Scores at lvl 20: Str24, Dex14, Con14, Int14, Wis8, Cha6

FEATS
1 Combat Reflexes
Brb2 Imp Trip (free with Wolf Totem)
3 Power Attack
Ftr1 Knock-Down
Ftr2 Resolute (CC, immediate action half BAB to Will save)
6 Leap Attack
9 Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
12 Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
Exotic Weapon Master 1: Flurry of Strikes
Exotic Weapon Master 2: Trip Attack (+2 trip)
15 Shock Trooper
18 Battle Jump
Alternative: Dump Exotic Weapon Master and replace WF: Chain with Extra Rage.

Horizon Walker terrain masteries: Pick the ones offering +4 to Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen. Your call about Darkvision/fatigue immunity/+4 Swim.

Planar Masteries: Shifting and Cavernous, of course. Add Fiery if you need the resistance.

Put points in Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Tumble, and Jump (for Leap Attack and Battle Jump). Jump will already be high with +2 synergy from tumble and +4 from your 40' move speed so it shouldn't need a lot of ranks. Don't forget the 8 points from Ranger go into Geography.

In rogue mode, sneak/teleport up behind people and trip/Leap Attack+Battle Jump them. It's not sneak attack damage, but it's much more reliable... and you aren't a glass cannon.

In fighter mode, just hop around the battlefield bashing heads in and tripping as you see fit.

[Psyren]

I can't help but note that the point behind the Horizon Tripper was to make a capable melee class using core-only. While I'm sure you can make it better by adding in Warblade or Totem Barbarians or feats from Complete Champion, I think doing so misses the point of the build.

Having said that, your tweaks look solid given my admittedly limited knowledge of melee, though the build as a whole is a mouthful for me...

[fracas]

Psyren - Fair points, but you'll notice I ended up not using either Warblade or Swordsage in the current build, and Wolf Totem is in the SRD along with Horizon Walker. The only things I'm using not in the SRD are a couple feats (which can easily be replaced with SRD options like Extra Rage and Stand Still) and Exotic Weapon Master which is equally easy to replace.

What do you mean by it being a "mouthful"? Awkward from a fluff/RP perspective? Overly complicated? Personally I love the idea of a guy who can stealthily DD in behind someone, Leap Attack+Battle Charge for major damage, and then turn into a high mobility tank-controller with decent striking options. Going SRD-only cuts back on damage potential but leaves the core concept in place.

As I've been messing with this I've been imagining the usage as a bit like the Telflammar Shadowlord from UE. You lose the Nightcrawlery puff-slice-puff in a single round ability and minor DPR, but gain tanking and controlling abilities, no worries about enemies being immune to precision damage, unlimited DimDoor, and you aren't nerfed in daylight.

For a more skillful variant, change Ranger to Factotum, race to Human or Strongheart Halfling, and take Endurance and Able Learner feats. Now all skills are class skills permanently, and you can max out UMD for all sorts of fun. You lose feats and strength, but gain lots of skill options (and +2 Int from dumping Orc).

[Psyren]

Psyren - Fair points, but you'll notice I ended up not using either Warblade or Swordsage in the current build, and Wolf Totem is in the SRD along with Horizon Walker.

I know that, but I didn't say "SRD." I said "Core" - as in, PHB + MM1 + DMG, which many games are (and therefore Saph's build was meant to address.) Totem Barbs, Stand Still etc. may be in the SRD, but they're not core.


What do you mean by it being a "mouthful"? Awkward from a fluff/RP perspective?

Nah - fluff is mutable, after all - I just tend not to like X-2/Y-2/Z-1/PrC(a)-7/PrC(b)-6 type-builds. But that's more a personal preference than any real commentary.

[fracas]

Ahh, fair enough. Yeah, for a core melee build I can't argue with Saph - her build is great and should be way more fun and rewarding to play than some ubercharger variant. Great option for low-to-mid optimization... for high-op of course you still basically need a T1/T2 class.

I have to say though, just my opinion but core-only seems a bit silly with the SRD being freely available and easily referenced. To each their own I guess.

I used to share your dislike of many-class builds, but these days I more see it as, "I want my character to be good at x, y, and z - how can I make that happen?" I still try to keep the bookkeeping relatively simple - my rule of thumb is that any build I play must involve less bookkeeping than Wizard20. I think this one is well under that limit, but again to each their own.

On the other hand, I think you may have a point inasmuch as my build might be trying to do too much at once. I've already spent too much time pondering D&D when I should be working, but I think the way to go with this is to note several variations that can be created easily with various goals in mind:

1. Puff, slice (but no second puff) with Monk2 (replacing Barbarian2)+Sun School.* Probably weaker overall (unless you have one of those DMs whose monsters always seem to make their saves/Str checks), but teleport-attacking is good fun. Probably best paired with #3, trading battlefield control for higher DPS.
2. Skillmonkey with Human+Factotum+Able Learner
3. High DPS striker with early Leap Attack+Battle Jump+Improved Bull Rush+Shock Trooper+Karmic Strike
4. Controller with Knock-Down, Improved Bull Rush, Directed Bull Rush, etc

All will be high mobility tanks with light controlling, which imo is a great starting place. A relatively straightforward build can probably incorporate two of the above... three with some compromises or extra shenanigans.

*Complete Warrior. Requires a 1-level Monk dip (or Exotic Weapon Master if you have a generous DM) for Flurry, but it does give you a completely reliable single attack after DimDoor or similar teleport and the other two maneuvers might be nice as well.