Redcloak's demise

[Hear]

My idea here is that xykon is trying to find a way to make Redcloak disposable, which is why he has tsukiko trying to decipher xykons part of the gate ritual.

Redcloak will find out about this, and will try his hardest to keep himself as a part of the plan. eventually this will lead to a scene where redcloak tries to betray xykon. (either if xykon finds a way to complete the ritual without redcloak or when xykon finds out that the dark ones plans for the gate dont exactly fit with his own).
and when Redcloak DOES betray xykon, xykon will have MiTD kill him (I also predict this will be when MiTD will be revealed)
In SoD, xykon casts a suggestion or geas or something on MiTD when he tells him to eat redcloak if he ever betrays xykon. I believe that this is significant to the plot, as it wouldnt have been included if it didnt have some significance to the plot.
what do you think?

[Sylthia]

I suppose that is possible, unless the MitD is immune or resistant to that particular spell. I had forgotten about that part of SoD.

[Thanatosia]

I find it highly likely. The scene in SoD where Xykon implanted the suggestion would be kind of pointless otherwise, and Rich generally does not waste time on dead end setups that never become relevant. I don't think its safe to assume that the MITD will be the one who kills Redcloak, but I would bet that the suggestion activates at some point.

Right now its just kind of hanging around as a highly probable Chekhov's Gun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlexn9xzsjd5fif) up on the wall.

[Elfin]

I'm very strongly leaning that way, myself. Honestly, I think Xykon was never really comfortable with being dependent on Redcloak - I find it quite likely that he's been on the lookout for a way to get rid of RC's dominancy and even participation in the Plan ever since they met, all those years ago.

And ever since the last Right-Eye incident, I'm almost certain replacing RC has been at the forefront of Xykon's mind.

[Felixc-91]

I suppose that is possible, unless the MitD is immune or resistant to that particular spell. I had forgotten about that part of SoD.given that we see the MitD's eyes do the swirly thing when the spell is cast, i think we can rule immunity out.

[DaveMcW]

Tsukiko is not going to work as a replacement caster.

1. She doesn't know the divine half of the spell. Researching it will involve a significant delay, even assuming her Spellcraft is high enough to do so.

2. The spell as originally designed will transfer control of the Gate to Redcloak's god. Even if Tsukiko deciphers the other half, it is still useless to Xykon.

3. If Tsukiko manages to research a different version of the spell that gives control to an arbitrary caster, why does it have to be Xykon? She can cast both halves and control the gate herself!

[Sylthia]

The MitD may also have the spell activate but refuse to follow through with it. The spell looks like Geas, since suggestion would have worn off by now. The MitD would become sickened, but I think he would retain free-will. He shows great concern for his friends as shown by his discussions with O-chul and he considers Redcloak to be his friend, so he would probably hesistate before eating him.

[Felixc-91]

Tsukiko is not going to work as a replacement caster.

1. She doesn't know the divine half of the spell. Researching it will involve a significant delay, even assuming her Spellcraft is high enough to do so.

some one with sufficient knowledge religion and arcana (a requirement for mystic theurges) might be able to logic out the other half of the spell...
this thread might contain usfull info (tsukiko' ritual) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184274)
indeed, but it may not be that far fetched given that she has the time to take 20 on all her checks. hmmm, the class and level geekery thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131219) puts her at a minimum of level 14 (if I'm reading that right) so 14+3+20=37 for a maxed out skill... so once she takes the time she just might know enough to figure it out.

[Chaos rising]

Or we can go with the comedic option: The Mitd (who is not known for following orders effectively) gets mixed up and eats the phylactery and spit out Redcloak!

[MoonCat]

They're going to have to find the phylactery first (the exact wording was about the phylactery, something like: "if he tries to damage it, eat him and spit out the phylactery.") And maybe this thread should be joined to this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175565&highlight=mitd+redcloak!)? I think it's within the appropriate time.

[King of Nowhere]

It has also been suggested:

:mitd: (swirly eyes) "hey, did you just betrayed Xykon?"
:redcloak:"no, that was just one of his twin skeletal brothers"
:mitd: (eyes reverting to normal) "oh, no problem then"

or maybe, given his peaceful nature, the mitd will not know how to kill redcloak, despite having every power to do so.

or he won't recognize a "betrayal".

or O-Chul will be there and play a part in it (but I can't think of a single reason O-Chul would want Redcloak to not get eaten).

The possibilities are endless anyway.
And I doubt Rich would do something so predictable as the classic betraial.

[NENAD]

I seriously doubt Rich is building up to a gag with all of MitD's development with O-Chul. MitD might end up killing Redcloak, though (Redcloak's not really all that friendly to him, something which MitD will figure out eventually).


1. She doesn't know the divine half of the spell. Researching it will involve a significant delay, even assuming her Spellcraft is high enough to do so.

Redcloak does. In order for Tsukiko to finish replacing Redcloak, Xykon's going to need to get that information from him to her. Just because Xykon couldn't replace Redcloak right now doesn't mean he isn't planning to do so in the future.


2. The spell as originally designed will transfer control of the Gate to Redcloak's god. Even if Tsukiko deciphers the other half, it is still useless to Xykon.

That's another bump, yes, but if Tsukiko can alter it to hand control to the person of her choice (or if the ritual could always do this, and it was just Redcloak's plan to give it to the Dark One), then the plan is pretty much complete.


3. If Tsukiko manages to research a different version of the spell that gives control to an arbitrary caster, why does it have to be Xykon? She can cast both halves and control the gate herself!

This one doesn't require any planning at all. Tsukiko is Xykon's Misa Amane (http://deathnote.wikia.com/wiki/Misa). She is romantically obsessed with him. There's virtually no chance at all that she'll betray him.

[Kichiku]

or maybe, given his peaceful nature, the mitd will not know how to kill redcloak, despite having every power to do so.

I'm personally hoping that something like what happened with Thanh will happen here. For all his supposed "scaryness", the MitD is so far the most nicest and peaceful one on "team evil". Therefore, it's my hope that he'd find himself not wanting to kill Redcloak and resist the spell put on him. Granted, unlike what happened with Thanh, he doesn't have any spcial reason to NOT want to strike Redclock down, though...

[DaveMcW]

There's virtually no chance at all that she'll betray him.

There is a difference between Tsukiko being able to overcome my objections, and Xykon letting her try. He doesn't even trust her enough to give hints about how to solve #1.

[TreesOfDeath]

At the critical point of the story, Xykon or (maybe even and!) Redcloak will betray each other.

If its Xykon, then the MITD may well kill Redcloak.

If its Redcloak he'll make an epic screw you speech before working with the order and likely shoving Xykon into the gate. Then when everyone thinks things are ok the mitd will flip out and attack Redcloak

[The Pilgrim]

I have always think about the charm thing in SoD more as a way to show that Xykon doesn't trust Redcloack, rather than a Chekov's Gun.

I mean, the prequels are there for flavor. The death of Redcloack would be a MAJOR plot point, and it can't be dependent of the extra material.

[MoonCat]

I have always think about the charm thing in SoD more as a way to show that Xykon doesn't trust Redcloack, rather than a Chekov's Gun.

I mean, the prequels are there for flavor. The death of Redcloack would be a MAJOR plot point, and it can't be dependent of the extra material.

Yeah. In the extras he always makes a point of saying that they are not necessary to understand the story. In the Thieves Guild arc they covered everything we needed to know in a single strip. If Xykon mentions that he hypnotized the MitD then we should worry (or cheer, or cry, or whatever).

[Sylthia]

They may show a flashback or mention the geas before any betrayel if need be. I think the Giant mentioned he would relay any info in the official comics if any pertinant information was needed.

[Hear]

I mean, the prequels are there for flavor. The death of Redcloack would be a MAJOR plot point, and it can't be dependent of the extra material.

but that doesnt mean it wont happen. maybe the giant would want it to be somewhat surprising? something simply doesnt NOT happen just because somebody else didnt see the events that led up to or happened before it!

[MoonCat]

but that doesnt mean it wont happen. maybe the giant would want it to be somewhat surprising? something simply doesnt NOT happen just because somebody else didnt see the events that led up to or happened before it!

Yes, but he doesn't make a person buy a named as an extra book just so they get what the hell is going on.

[veti]

The "Chekov's gun" has to be fired, but there's no law saying it has to hit anything.

I think it's unlikely that the MitD will actually attack Redcloak, just 'cuz that'd be too obvious. (Also I think if it were going to be a major turning point, it would have been at least hinted at in the online strip.)

So my guess is the MitD is going to do something in response to that spell, but not what Xykon expected or wanted.

[snikrept]

Redcloak's not going to die, he's going to win :) Just very probably not in a way that would looked like victory to him, if he considered it right now.

[The Pilgrim]

but that doesnt mean it wont happen. maybe the giant would want it to be somewhat surprising? something simply doesnt NOT happen just because somebody else didnt see the events that led up to or happened before it!

There is a reason why the Chekov's Gun exists. You can't take something out of your sleeve and force it into the story. Well, you can, but that's a Deus Ex Machina, and really bad writting.

In order to fire a Chevov's Gun, you must load it first. The gun was loaded in the prequel, but as the Giant said, the prequel is not required to understand the story. Ergo, the gun has not been loaded, yet, in the actual comic.

If, as Mooncat points, The Giant includes a reference to those events in the actual comic, then yes, the Gun will be loaded. Otherwise, in my humble opinion it remains safe.

[Querzis]

There is a difference between Tsukiko being able to overcome my objections, and Xykon letting her try. He doesn't even trust her enough to give hints about how to solve #1.

I think it as less to do with not trusting her and more to do with the fact that if she cant figure it out herself, then she obviously cant replace Redcloak.

[Dr.Epic]

Red Cloak ain't getting killed. He's gonna live a long life and find a nice place to retire in Nilbog.

[KillItWithFire]

Red Cloak ain't getting killed. He's gonna live a long life and find a nice place to retire in Nilbog.

I honestly don't see how this comic can end with redcloak still alive, poetic justice and all that.

[SPoD]

There is a reason why the Chekov's Gun exists. You can't take something out of your sleeve and force it into the story. Well, you can, but that's a Deus Ex Machina, and really bad writting.

In order to fire a Chevov's Gun, you must load it first. The gun was loaded in the prequel, but as the Giant said, the prequel is not required to understand the story. Ergo, the gun has not been loaded, yet, in the actual comic.

If, as Mooncat points, The Giant includes a reference to those events in the actual comic, then yes, the Gun will be loaded. Otherwise, in my humble opinion it remains safe.

To be fair, I don't think those events need to be mentioned online in order for them to be used as part of a joke/Easter Egg for the readers who bought Start of Darkness. I think Rich has proven that he doesn't feel the need to retread every last thing in the prequels before referencing it. He could easily have the situation arise, then Xykon looks at the MITD who does nothing but look confused, followed by a punchline. But it won't be a defining plot moment unless it gets incorporated into the color story.

[MoonCat]

To be fair, I don't think those events need to be mentioned online in order for them to be used as part of a joke/Easter Egg for the readers who bought Start of Darkness. I think Rich has proven that he doesn't feel the need to retread every last thing in the prequels before referencing it. He could easily have the situation arise, then Xykon looks at the MITD who does nothing but look confused, followed by a punchline. But it won't be a defining plot moment unless it gets incorporated into the color story.

Yes, but a major plot point like that. Think about how it would be to someone who has never read SoD. I'll mark with stars the things in bonus books:

:redcloak: Xykon, *Right-Eye was right*! You will never help us build the goblin race an equal ground!
(start to stab him with *positive energy knife*)
:mitd: Redcloak, that's not a good idea (*goes swirly eyed and eats Redcloak*)
:xykon:*now spit out the phylactery, I'LL be taking care of it now. (*pats Barky on the head*)

An easter egg would be the purple star on the Gobbotopia flag, not something of this magnitude.

[Dr.Epic]

I honestly don't see how this comic can end with redcloak still alive, poetic justice and all that.

I like how you commented about that and not the obvious reference I was making.

[Acero]

Has anyone thought maybe Xykon doesn't understand HIS part of the ritual, and needs Tsukio to explain it to him?
Knowing Xkyon, its possible

:xykon: *reads ritual* This makes no sense. Henchwoman! Come! figure this out for me while I'm gone. If Redcloak gives you trouble, call him Wrong-eye

[Querzis]

Has anyone thought maybe Xykon doesn't understand HIS part of the ritual, and needs Tsukio to explain it to him?
Knowing Xkyon, its possible

:xykon: *reads ritual* This makes no sense. Henchwoman! Come! figure this out for me while I'm gone. If Redcloak gives you trouble, call him Wrong-eye

Short answer: no because Tsukiko says its divine: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html

Long answer: No because Tsukiko says its divine and Xykon is an epic level sorcerer who will never need help from anyone with arcane magic (not to mention the fact that he got his part of the ritual decades ago).

[Nimrod's Son]

I'll mark with stars the things in bonus books:

:redcloak: Xykon, *Right-Eye was right*!
It's almost a raging certainty that this won't still be a spoiler for SoD by the time we get to that point. We've already seen Redcloak talking to his brother in the mirror and Tsukiko calling him "Wrong-Eye". By the time Redcloak's ready to betray Xykon, there's bound to be a lot more info about Right-Eye in the online strip.


*positive energy knife*


*pats Barky on the head*
Absolutely no reason whatsoever to assume these will happen at all, especially the one about Barky. That would make no sense. And even assuming Redcloak did attack Xykon with a knife like Right-Eye's, it needs no more than a single speech bubble to explain what it is.

(Also, given recent developments, it's quite likely that Xykon's already going to be looking after the phylactery himself from now on.)


An easter egg would be the purple star on the Gobbotopia flag, not something of this magnitude.
The point SPoD was making was that it doesn't necessarily have to be of any magnitude. But if it is, the online strip will cover the necessary details (I mean, even the star on the flag can't be considered much of an easter egg, because The Dark One showed up in person only two strips later. Everything else from the prequels that will become relevant is surely going to be handled in much the same manner).

[DeltaEmil]

Has anyone thought maybe Xykon doesn't understand HIS part of the ritual, and needs Tsukio to explain it to him?
Knowing Xkyon, its possible

:xykon: *reads ritual* This makes no sense. Henchwoman! Come! figure this out for me while I'm gone. If Redcloak gives you trouble, call him Wrong-eyeI seriously doubt this. Xykon has the necessary ranks in knowledge (arcana) and spellcraft to understand arcane formulas, else he wouldn't be able to cast epic magic in the first place.

Xykon is not dumb. He doesn't even really have a short attention order, he simply just doesn't care about the stuff that has nothing to do with furthering the goal of total world domination.

[MoonCat]

It's almost a raging certainty that this won't still be a spoiler for SoD by the time we get to that point. We've already seen Redcloak talking to his brother in the mirror and Tsukiko calling him "Wrong-Eye". By the time Redcloak's ready to betray Xykon, there's bound to be a lot more info about Right-Eye in the online strip.


Absolutely no reason whatsoever to assume these will happen at all, especially the one about Barky. That would make no sense. And even assuming Redcloak did attack Xykon with a knife like Right-Eye's, it needs no more than a single speech bubble to explain what it is.

(Also, given recent developments, it's quite likely that Xykon's already going to be looking after the phylactery himself from now on.)


The point SPoD was making was that it doesn't necessarily have to be of any magnitude. But if it is, the online strip will cover the necessary details (I mean, even the star on the flag can't be considered much of an easter egg, because The Dark One showed up in person only two strips later. Everything else from the prequels that will become relevant is surely going to be handled in much the same manner).

Sorry, there is going to some text here.

Right, sorry, the Barky part was a joke. I should have expected that someone might take me seriously. And I can't believe I forgot that the Dark One showed up two panels later, that was really stupid of me. :smallfrown: But Redcloak's reflection would be an easter egg currently, because without SoD, he's reassuring himself, nothing else. The Wrong-Eye jab is his left eye being spiked out by a paladin, you don't need SoD to get why he was called that, although they may be confused to why Redcloak reacted that way (and even that could be put down to Tsusiko pointing out he is no longer #1 to Xykon).
I think we're pretty much agreeing that it wont happen until more is revealed in the main story, and so is SPoD, so I don't feel the need to continue. All the way back to my first post on the thread, I think that the time to start worrying about the demise of Redcloak is when more is explained about Redcloak, Right-Eye, and the attack.

MoonCat
PS. (Check it out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html), Right-Eye was mentioned by name here. I think that explanations are going to show up in the next cut to Team Evil.)

[The MunchKING]

I don't think its safe to assume that the MITD will be the one who kills Redcloak, but I would bet that the suggestion activates at some point.

Shouldn't it have worn off like years ago? IIRC it only lasts like one day per casterlevel.

[WowWeird]

To be fair, I don't think those events need to be mentioned online in order for them to be used as part of a joke/Easter Egg for the readers who bought Start of Darkness. I think Rich has proven that he doesn't feel the need to retread every last thing in the prequels before referencing it. He could easily have the situation arise, then Xykon looks at the MITD who does nothing but look confused, followed by a punchline. But it won't be a defining plot moment unless it gets incorporated into the color story.
This. For example, the silver dragon Xykon rode on during the Battle of Azure City was actually met and killed in a bonus comic in NCftPB They never referenced anything about it in the main comic- Xykon suddenly had it on the :roach: "splash page", and it then went on to serve as his battle platform. It was important to the plot (severed head saves Vaarsuvius, Roy falls to his death, etc.), but as skilled a writer as Rich could probably have written around that. The same here- while it may be mildly plot-important, it won't be a resolution to the entire plot.
Yes, I know that the NCftPB strip didn't need to be spoilered

[brionl]

Short answer: no because Tsukiko says its divine: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html

Long answer: No because Tsukiko says its divine and Xykon is an epic level sorcerer who will never need help from anyone with arcane magic (not to mention the fact that he got his part of the ritual decades ago).

The missing half is divine. Which means she has the arcane half, i.e. Xykon's half. I would be entirely unsurprised if Xykon got his half decades ago, and just ignored it.

Given the MitD's mental state, it wouldn't be too shocking if he just forgot that he was Geased to eat Redcloak.

[Sylthia]

I just realized that the MitD can't follow Xykon's instructions to the letter anymore. Redcloak is no longer in possession of the phylactery and probably won't be again, so MitD would have to eat Redcloak AND whoever is holding onto it in order to spit out the phylactery as per the geas.

[MoonCat]

This. For example, the silver dragon Xykon rode on during the Battle of Azure City was actually met and killed in a bonus comic in NCftPB They never referenced anything about it in the main comic- Xykon suddenly had it on the :roach: "splash page", and it then went on to serve as his battle platform. It was important to the plot (severed head saves Vaarsuvius, Roy falls to his death, etc.), but as skilled a writer as Rich could probably have written around that. The same here- while it may be mildly plot-important, it won't be a resolution to the entire plot.
Yes, I know that the NCftPB strip didn't need to be spoilered

This. But something major like Right-Eye or the MitD's hypno needs a little explanation before it happens, in-comic. Think how confused all the people would be if it appeared that the MitD suddenly became much more violent towards Redcloak, totally opposing his character.

[Tass]

This. For example, the silver dragon Xykon rode on during the Battle of Azure City was actually met and killed in a bonus comic in NCftPB They never referenced anything about it in the main comic- Xykon suddenly had it on the :roach: "splash page", and it then went on to serve as his battle platform. It was important to the plot (severed head saves Vaarsuvius, Roy falls to his death, etc.), but as skilled a writer as Rich could probably have written around that. The same here- while it may be mildly plot-important, it won't be a resolution to the entire plot.
Yes, I know that the NCftPB strip didn't need to be spoilered

We actually see it dead in the tower too. Without the bonus strips it is just assumed Xykon killed it.

[Nimrod's Son]

Right, sorry, the Barky part was a joke. I should have expected that someone might take me seriously.
I suspected as much, but it undermined your point all the same. :smallwink:


The Wrong-Eye jab is his left eye being spiked out by a paladin, you don't need SoD to get why he was called that
Apparently Tsukiko does. She admits in the same strip that she has no idea why Xykon told her to call him that.


I think we're pretty much agreeing that it wont happen until more is revealed in the main story
Broadly, yes. The point I was making is that this filtering of information from the prequels to the main strip is already happening, and will continue to do so.


This. For example, the silver dragon Xykon rode on during the Battle of Azure City was actually met and killed in a bonus comic in NCftPB They never referenced anything about it in the main comic- Xykon suddenly had it on the :roach: "splash page", and it then went on to serve as his battle platform.
Actually we see the dragon's corpse in the first panel of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) strip, so we already knew he killed it in the tower. The bonus strips were just the icing.


I just realized that the MitD can't follow Xykon's instructions to the letter anymore. Redcloak is no longer in possession of the phylactery and probably won't be again, so MitD would have to eat Redcloak AND whoever is holding onto it in order to spit out the phylactery as per the geas.
Hmm, that hadn't occurred to me before, but I quite like the idea. :smallamused:

[MoonCat]

I suspected as much, but it undermined your point all the same. :smallwink:

Sometimes I can't control my need to make various jokes, again, sorry :smallwink:


Apparently Tsukiko does. She admits in the same strip that she has no idea why Xykon told her to call him that.

Yes, so it's not an explanation, except it might make someone who's dedicated enough connect it with the mention of Right-Eye in that other strip. Although anyone that dedicated has probably already bought all the books and read them


Broady, yes. The point I was making is that this filtering of information from the prequels to the main strip is already happening, and will continue to do so.

Yeah, but we know that nothing's going to happen quite yet, because no mention has been of the MitD's instructions, so Redcloak is safe at least until the next flash to Team Evil (I'm getting this feeling something big is brewing)


Actually we see the dragon's corpse in the first panel of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) strip, so we already knew he killed it in the tower. The bonus strips were just the icing.

Actually, Shelby the DragonSlayer killed him :smallamused: So I don't think it qualifies. But still, I know what an Eater egg is like, I just can't believe I had that major blankout on the Dark One showing up in-comic :smallsigh::smallredface: <facepalm>

[Nimrod's Son]

Yeah, but we know that nothing's going to happen quite yet, because no mention has been of the MitD's instructions, so Redcloak is safe at least until the next flash to Team Evil
So you're saying Redcloak hasn't died off-panel while we were wasting time with the gladiators? That's a relief. :smalltongue:


Actually, Shelby the DragonSlayer killed him :smallamused: So I don't think it qualifies.
Somehow I don't think Shelby's going to be writing any history books... :smallamused:

[MoonCat]

So you're saying Redcloak hasn't died off-panel while we were wasting time with the gladiators? That's a relief. :smalltongue:

Now THAT seriously undermined your point :smalltongue:


Somehow I don't think Shelby's going to be writing any history books... :smallamused:

That is because he is dead

[Gift Jeraff]

What if Xykon has to reapply whatever spell he cast on the MitD? Then he casts it again at some point, so it was nice foreshadowing for people who read SoD, but gets explained for people who didn't.

[grimbold]

nice
this is one of the few 'conspiracy' type threads that actually works