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View Full Version : [D&D 3.5] Daring Outlaw, does this work?



Vin Robinson
2011-01-23, 01:21 AM
A fellow player came up with a build that I'm personally objecting to but the DM is allowing. I just want to know if it really works by RAW.

It starts off with one level of variant Feat Rogue.

Then two levels of Sneak Attack Fighter (for 2D6 Sneak attack) or whatever 1 level dips grant SA.

Then you take your three Swashbuckler Levels.

Take Daring Outlaw.

Continue Taking Feat Rogue Levels.

So, the player is now gaining Sneak Attack Dice on his even (Rogue+3) levels, and Fighter Feats on his odd levels.

Does this work? Thanks.

Roog
2011-01-23, 02:18 AM
It states "Your rogue and swashbuckler levels also stack for the purpose of determining your sneak attack bonus damage".

(Reading literally) As it does not state that they stack with anything else (beyond the usual rules for stacking bonus damage), this implies that they stack with each other. Stacking your rogue and swashbuckler levels does not give you sneak attack dice, because neither of these classes give you sneak attack (as you traded that ability away).

However, it would seem to be reasonable to let swashbuckler levels stack with Sneak Attack Fighter for sneak attack.

Note that this is a different from the situation where you have zero Rogue levels, as stacking N swashbuckler levels with zero standard rogue levels gives you N effective Rogue levels for sneak attack. Since you traded away the sneak attack from rogue, you have Rogue+3 effective Rogue levels, which gives you 0d6 sneak attack to add to your sneak attack from sneak attack fighter.

Fitz10019
2011-01-23, 03:12 AM
Stacking your rogue and swashbuckler levels does not give you sneak attack dice, because neither of these classes give you sneak attack (as you traded that ability away). (emphasis added)

+1

Roog
2011-01-23, 03:21 AM
Then two levels of Sneak Attack Fighter (for 2D6 Sneak attack)...

This only gives you 1d6, as sneak attack fighter gains "Sneak attack (as rogue)" in exchange for bonus feats. It does not replace each feat with a sneak attack dice; it replaces the entire call feature.

Urpriest
2011-01-23, 11:51 AM
The answer to your question is that it depends on how the term stack works, and there is no actual resolution of the ambiguity. It's a similar problem for a Tashalatora character with no actual monk levels. So if the DM is allowing it you don't really have a RAW objection, and the best you can say is that it's a really stupid trick.

Hazzardevil
2011-02-12, 12:37 PM
I would personally allow you to use fighter levels instead of rogue in this case for taking the feat, I would however not allow you to stack martial rogue and swashbuckler for sneak attack.

Akal Saris
2011-02-12, 01:03 PM
I think it's against RAI, but RAW is murky here. As Roog pointed out, there is nothing from either swashbuckler or rogue to stack together, which is different from a swashbuckler 15 with assassin's stance through feats, who combines 15 + 0 for 8d6 SA.

With that said, if the DM allows it, what's the harm? All the PC has done is turn the D&D 3.5 rogue into a PF rogue.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-12, 01:54 PM
As Roog said, since his Feat Rogue levels don't give him Sneak Attack, stacking his Swash and Rogue levels for Sneak Attack shouldn't give him any Sneak Attack. He doesn't have 0 sneak attacking rogue levels, he has null sneak attacking rogue levels. By taking Feat Rogue, he traded away the ability to get sneak attack from Rogue levels.
With that said, the rules are murky, it's a clever build, and the DM approves. Unless he's overshadowing other party members, it shouldn't be a big problem.

gorfnab
2011-02-12, 02:37 PM
If your DM allows this interpretation of Daring Outlaw to work I would recommend going with Swashbuckler 3/ Sneak Attack Fighter 3/ Feat Rogue 14 (not necessarily in that order though). This would net you 11d6 sneak attack, 8 bonus feats, and 16 BAB.