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View Full Version : Bardic Knack + Jack of All Trades [3.5]



Volos
2011-01-23, 03:30 AM
I am having a hard time deciding on how to rule on this particular combination. The Bardic Knack ACF from Player's Handbook 2 combinded with The Jack of All Trades Feat from Complete Adventurer. I usually try to rule Rules as Interpreted as long as it doesn't give a clear advantage to anyone. This seems innocent enough, but I'd like a second opinion.

Bardic Knack requires there to be one actual rank in a 'trained only' skill in order to make skill checks using the virtual ranks from Bardic Knack. Jack of All Trades gives you a virtual 1/2 rank in all skills, even 'trained only' skills. Many guides on playing Bards cite this combo but don't warn against the possible RAW implications. So my questions are as follows.

RAW, does Bardic Knack work with Jack of All Trades?

RAI, does it make sense to bend the rules to allow this?

If this is allowed, would it be too powerful or take too much from the players who aren't playing the bard?

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-23, 03:32 AM
do 1/2 ranks count as 1?

Volos
2011-01-23, 03:36 AM
That's what I'm trying to figure out. As far as I can tell, Jack of All Trades is the only thing to give you half a rank in a skill. I'm also trying to figure out if combinding the two is really all that bad.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-23, 03:43 AM
By RAW: debatable
By RAI: No

Popertop
2011-01-23, 03:48 AM
It doesn't really seem like a huge deal.

Mordokai
2011-01-23, 03:50 AM
What does Bardic Knack do anyway? I'm not familiar with the feat and am away from my books at the moment.

MeeposFire
2011-01-23, 04:26 AM
It doesn't really seem like a huge deal.

It is not. It makes for a good house rule that is flavorful and thematic. It also would not be unbalanced in the least.

RAW=no

Bardic Knack says you need one rank to use this ability with a skill that doesn't allow untrained checks. The fact you can use a skill or not does not change whether or not a skill allows untrained checks (use magic device is still a skill that does not allow untrained checks even if you find a way to roll a check anyway). Now somebody might remark that since jack of all trades allows me to make a skill check with UMD it is now no longer a trained only skill. This however is false as the skill is still a trained only skill and the skill still requires you to have one skill point to use it, it is your feat that allows you to use the skill anyway.

Bardic knack does not ask whether you can make a roll or not. It asks whether the skill allows untrained checks and the skills say no even after the feat. The fact that the feat allows you to make a check does not change skills themselves.

RAI=debatable

I think the designers would have thought it to be OK and if brought up during the creation process would have changed the wording to allow to work (changing the wording to "this ability can only be applied to skills that allow you to make skill checks" or similar). This of course is conjecture but I think it is likely. Some might say they would not allow it but it would seem kind of silly since at best it is one feat to save a few skill points. Seems like at best a fair trade (might even be a bad trade).

I would allow it in my game especially since the RAW argument is being such a stickler for details that it is just kind of dumb.

EDIT: Bardic knack is an ability that gives bards "pseudo ranks" in skills based on their level that do not stack with real skill points. A 10th level bard would have 5 "ranks" in all skills that do not stack with real skill points. One caveat is that if a skill does not allow checks untrained such as UMD then they must have one rank in order to apply bardic knack.

ffone
2011-01-23, 05:44 AM
Balancewise, there aren't that many trained skills - what, 5 (Disable Device, Forgery Open Lock, Spellcraft, UMD) besides the Knowledge skills?

The bard has most on his class skill list...so having Jack of All Trades, and allowing it to work w/ Bardic Knack, is like having, what, 10 or 12 extra skill points in exchange for a feat? Seems OK to me. Better than the CAdv feat for 5 skill points but worse than Nymph's Kiss from BoED (at high levels).

Or is the contention that even if the bard puts 1 rank in these skills, Bardic Knack doesn't let him make checks as if he had 1/2 bard level ranks?

MeeposFire
2011-01-23, 07:21 AM
Balancewise, there aren't that many trained skills - what, 5 (Disable Device, Forgery Open Lock, Spellcraft, UMD) besides the Knowledge skills?

The bard has most on his class skill list...so having Jack of All Trades, and allowing it to work w/ Bardic Knack, is like having, what, 10 or 12 extra skill points in exchange for a feat? Seems OK to me. Better than the CAdv feat for 5 skill points but worse than Nymph's Kiss from BoED (at high levels).

Or is the contention that even if the bard puts 1 rank in these skills, Bardic Knack doesn't let him make checks as if he had 1/2 bard level ranks?

There are a few more skills (Use psionic devise, psicraft, auto hypnosis, truenaming, and iajistsu focus come to mind) but in general you are correct. Even if it worked it would only save you a few skill points and how many of those do you really need considering you have spells and can avoid some of those problems already? Further since some of those are skills you actually want high you probably put points into them which removes the usefullness of bardic knack on those skills anyway.

If a bard puts one rank in those skills bardic knack applies as that is explicitly stated in the description, so that should not be the contention.

Havelock
2011-01-23, 08:30 AM
My intepretation of RAW is that it is allowed:


When making any skill check, you can use 1/2
your bard level (rounded up) in place of the number of ranks
you have in the skill (even if that number is 0).


If the skill doesn’t allow untrained checks, you must have at least 1 actual rank to attempt the check.

RAI here is clearly that this ACF does not allow you to make untrained checks with trained only skills. RAW says fairly explicitly that when you make a skill check (which requires your ability to make it, which means ranks if it can't be used untrained), you can substitute 1/2 Bard level for ranks. The part about being allowed to attempt the check is actually standard rules repeated.

From Jack of all Trades:

This benefit allows you to attempt checks with
skills that normally don’t allow untrained skill checks

This means you can attempt any skill check, and you can then substitute ranks for 1/2 level.

Seems pretty clear to me.

MeeposFire
2011-01-23, 08:42 AM
Good point and that makes me happy since that is the way I thought it worked at first. I just focused too much on the first sentence.

so now I guess I am

RAW=yes
RAI=Probably yes though you never can be sure.

Amnestic
2011-01-23, 08:45 AM
What does Bardic Knack do anyway? I'm not familiar with the feat and am away from my books at the moment.

It's an ACF from PHB2 (pg.35).

Replaces Bardic Knowledge, gives you the option of using 1/2 your Bard Level (rounded up) for skill checks. Skills which don't allow untrained checks need at least one "actual" rank to attempt the check.

Volos
2011-01-23, 12:37 PM
Alright, but do effective ranks from Bardic Knack give you skill synergy bonuses?

Doodleface
2011-01-23, 12:51 PM
I had a Bard that had Bardic Knack, and Jack of all Trades.

DM was fine with it, we ruled the Bardic Knack 'ranks' do NOT create synergy bonuses. It was not game breaking in any way. Our party was a pretty mixed bag too, Palidin, Dread Necromancer, TWF Ranger/Rogue, Cleric/RSoP, and Bard/Virtuoso/Sublime Chord.

RagnaroksChosen
2011-01-23, 02:10 PM
Alright, but do effective ranks from Bardic Knack give you skill synergy bonuses?

No as those ranks from bardic knack are only for making skill checks... bardic knack and jack of all trades just allows you to roll you still don't have actual ranks in it. So it won't count tword prerequisites or synergy.

MeeposFire
2011-01-23, 05:01 PM
Yea these "ranks" are not actually ranks they just simulate ranks when you actually make a skill check.

ffone
2011-01-23, 07:10 PM
Yea these "ranks" are not actually ranks they just simulate ranks when you actually make a skill check.

Agreed.

Easiest way to think of it (which is its RAW I believe) is that it's simply a bonus or modifier which happens to not stack with actual ranks.

IIRC it also explicitly says you can't use it with taking 10.