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Fizban
2011-01-23, 08:40 AM
Ever had that? I just spent the last couple hours working on a build. It was going to be awesome, Sorcerer/Exalted Arcanist using Ancestral Relic to build himself a custom Runestaff. The best part was gonna be using the required Purify Spell on all those wacky 1d8, 1d10, and 1d12 spells to deal tons of extra damage to evil creatures. It was basically Practiced Metamagic and Empower Spell rolled into one feat, and then it could even trigger Spell Focus: Good! Combust, Rainbow Beam, Belker Claws, Sound Lance, Vortex of Teeth. . . bad guys were gonna get shredded by freaking holy piranhas of doom!

Oh. What's that you say? Purify Spell only increases damage against evil Outsiders? That's completely useless!

(Yes, I know what the feat is for. Sparing neutral and good creatures from area attacks. You know what does that better in every way? Sculpt Spell. As is, Exalted Arcanist requires two feats that are only useful because. . . well you might as well use them since you have to take them anyway).

So, what stories have you guys got? What awesome ideas have you worked and worked only to find out that the center of the plan didn't actually do what it was supposed to?

gbprime
2011-01-23, 09:00 AM
Most recently it was me drooling over Citadel Elite PrC (Sharn, City of Towers) and all the cool builds it opened up. a 5 level full BAB class that gets +1 AC every level, denies 1 point of opponents' dex per level, gets 2 bonus feats, a smite attack, some skill bonuses, and RP royal connections!

Then I read the Errata. They take away the bonus feats, cap the AC bonus to a flat +1, and change the attack bonus to a flat +1.

SuperNerf. :smallfrown:

hotel_papa
2011-01-23, 10:10 AM
I remember making a Druid with the Natural Bond feat, not seeing the part that disallows you to be treated as a Druid higher than your level. I was sad when in the first few minutes of the game I lost my Dire Bear.

Psyren
2011-01-23, 10:40 AM
I misread True Necromancer back in the day :smalltongue:
Being fooled thus has stoked my hatred for the class into the fury of a thousand suns.

@ OP: Exalted Arcanist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004b) is awesome. 30 extra spells known in 5 levels, and all that juicy exalted flavor. (53 if you're a beguiler)

I think the biggest letdown was misreading Hierophant, and thinking it was a divine Archmage. Ha!

Starbuck_II
2011-01-23, 10:58 AM
I remember making a Druid with the Natural Bond feat, not seeing the part that disallows you to be treated as a Druid higher than your level. I was sad when in the first few minutes of the game I lost my Dire Bear.

Wait, were you level 7th level?
The feat just lets you ignore -3 penalty to the animal companions progression.

Meaning at 4th, you get a black bear with full progression instead of progression -3.

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-23, 11:01 AM
Damned Warshaper's Morphic Immunity. Immune to Critical Hits only when in a form besides your own. D'oh!:smallannoyed:

tahu88810
2011-01-23, 11:09 AM
Most recently it was me drooling over Citadel Elite PrC (Sharn, City of Towers) and all the cool builds it opened up. a 5 level full BAB class that gets +1 AC every level, denies 1 point of opponents' dex per level, gets 2 bonus feats, a smite attack, some skill bonuses, and RP royal connections!

Then I read the Errata. They take away the bonus feats, cap the AC bonus to a flat +1, and change the attack bonus to a flat +1.

SuperNerf. :smallfrown:

This is why I tell my players to ignore errata.

My Story: I heard about locate city bomb, and was prepared to have an NPC use it up until someone burst my bubble with an explanation of why it shouldn't work. (I still used it, though). That's really the closest thing I can think of, usually I read rules twice or more if they sound too good to be true.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-23, 11:15 AM
Invisible Blade. At first, it looked like free sneak attacks. Then I read the errata...

TroubleBrewing
2011-01-23, 11:19 AM
A friend of mine and I tried to build a sneak-attacking sorceror build using scorching ray to get well over 100d6 worth of damage... until we saw that the SA damage only applies to the first ray. Stupid barrage rules...

begooler
2011-01-23, 01:12 PM
A wizard I made in a campaign that lasted from levels 5 to 10 relied heavily on casting Manyjaws (Level 3 spell that creates caster level number of 'jaws of force' that do d4 damage each per round for 3 rounds. I was also using it with sudden extend.) and then following up with nuking for the next few rounds while the jaws hacked away.
After we'd finished that campaign I actually read the spell description and realized it required concentration each round.
Oops.

Also, I have made a point of never reading the errata in ToB because I would be really disapointed if it turned out that swordsages don't actually get (6+int)x6 skill points at first level.

Greenish
2011-01-23, 01:16 PM
Most recently it was me drooling over Citadel Elite PrC (Sharn, City of Towers) and all the cool builds it opened up. a 5 level full BAB class that gets +1 AC every level, denies 1 point of opponents' dex per level, gets 2 bonus feats, a smite attack, some skill bonuses, and RP royal connections!

Then I read the Errata. They take away the bonus feats, cap the AC bonus to a flat +1, and change the attack bonus to a flat +1.What, they removed the feats too? What in Khyber's name were they thinking?

Also, I have made a point of never reading the errata in ToB…WotC has heard your wish, and heeded it.

Coidzor
2011-01-23, 01:34 PM
What, they removed the feats too? What in Khyber's name were they thinking?

The mantra "melee can't have nice things," I imagine. But my imagination is a dark place filled with cowled cultists.

I ran into something like this recently but I can't for the life of me remember what it was. Destroyed an entire line of inquiry I was involved in at the time too.

druid91
2011-01-23, 01:35 PM
This is why I tell my players to ignore errata.

My Story: I heard about locate city bomb, and was prepared to have an NPC use it up until someone burst my bubble with an explanation of why it shouldn't work. (I still used it, though). That's really the closest thing I can think of, usually I read rules twice or more if they sound too good to be true.

Why shouldn't locate city bomb work? Without DM interference/Rule 0 it seems perfectly viable to me.

Czin
2011-01-23, 01:39 PM
Why shouldn't locate city bomb work? Without DM interference/Rule 0 it seems perfectly viable to me.

It's because the locate city bomb has no vertical height to it's effect; thus causing no fall damage. Or something to that effect.

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-23, 01:39 PM
There's a Solar Hero Style expansion Charm in Scroll of the Monk (yeah, yeah, this was back when I was naive) called Inevitable Victory Meditation. Spend the Essence and a Willpower, wait five minutes, and you've got a banked attack roll you can use later. Sounds awesome, right? Do that in the morning until you've got a stupid-good roll, and then sock it away until you're in trouble, then yell "Surprise!" as you suddenly belt your hard-to-hit enemy across the chin from out of nowhere.

Sadly, I made the mistake of buying the Charm before I discovered that the duration on the Charm was one scene. In other words, "I spend five minutes meditating to store away an awesome roll... that I've then gotta use before the scene changes."

This will never be useful. :eek:

Boci
2011-01-23, 01:43 PM
Why shouldn't locate city bomb work? Without DM interference/Rule 0 it seems perfectly viable to me.

I think the argument is that the AoE is 2D, not 3D, thus the spell isn't as good as its made out to be. Plus if you hit a solid object you immediatly stop, so in a city few people will take more than 2d6. Still devastating, but not as much as it was initially made out to be unless you face an army on an open plane.

Reynard
2011-01-23, 01:46 PM
WotC has heard your wish, and heeded it.

Okay, that made me laugh.

Coidzor
2011-01-23, 01:51 PM
I misread True Necromancer back in the day Do you remember what about it you misread?


@ OP: Exalted Arcanist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004b) is awesome. 30 extra spells known in 5 levels, and all that juicy exalted flavor. (53 if you're a beguiler)

:smalleek: ...you just made me realize something. By the write up on the website, one doesn't need to be Exalted in order to enter that class, and the only pressure to be/remain exalted are the two bonus feats at the end of the class. whoa.

2xMachina
2011-01-23, 01:52 PM
It's because the locate city bomb has no vertical height to it's effect; thus causing no fall damage. Or something to that effect.

More like, "it's 2D, so hey, you just bounce up 5', rather than to the edge of the spell".

For me, I read Circle, as a Circle with the height of "HOLY CRAP the height is infinite"

Czin
2011-01-23, 01:54 PM
More like, "it's 2D, so hey, you just bounce up 5', rather than to the edge of the spell".

For me, I read Circle, as a Circle with the height of "HOLY CRAP the height is infinite"

If it had a height it would be a cylinder not a circle.

2xMachina
2011-01-23, 01:56 PM
How exactly is the spell supposed to work if it's a circle?
City is on a hill, sorry, can't locate that. City is in a valley, can't locate that.

Wabbajack
2011-01-23, 01:56 PM
And then by RAW the spell is pretty useless if you stand on a mountain or something similar.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Coidzor
2011-01-23, 02:00 PM
More like, "it's 2D, so hey, you just bounce up 5', rather than to the edge of the spell".

For me, I read Circle, as a Circle with the height of "HOLY CRAP the height is infinite"

I read circle as meaning that the 3rd dimension is irrelevant myself.

Flickerdart
2011-01-23, 02:00 PM
If it had a height it would be a cylinder not a circle.
If it didn't have a height, then it wouldn't be able to locate cities that weren't precisely on your elevation, and would thus be useless.

Thiyr
2011-01-23, 02:03 PM
And that's why the dirty bomb version is so much better. Walls? Pah, negative levels. gogo whightocalypse. Area doesn't matter at that point!

As far as misreading, there was much dismay when I missed that line that says empower doesn't get maximized if you use both. Made me quite disapointed that my rays of enfeeblement weren't just a flat 16 strength penalty.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-23, 02:07 PM
I remember how shocked I was when I finally learned that shortspears only get a x2 crit, unlike every other spear in the game...

Boci
2011-01-23, 02:11 PM
How exactly is the spell supposed to work if it's a circle?
City is on a hill, sorry, can't locate that. City is in a valley, can't locate that.

IIRC, the spell specifically mentions that it won't locate underground cities.

sonofzeal
2011-01-23, 02:15 PM
If you took a 2D circle, and then projected it across a 3D object (like your continent), you could get a shape that could still be called a "circle" in some senses but would find both cities on hills and cities in valleys. LCB still wouldn't kill everyone though.

druid91
2011-01-23, 02:16 PM
IIRC, the spell specifically mentions that it won't locate underground cities.

It will take the shortest path by foot to locate underground cities IIRC. Meaning if the the city is ten feet under the place where you are standing, but the only path to get there takes longer than the reach of the spell it won't be located.

Wabbajack
2011-01-23, 02:24 PM
If you took a 2D circle, and then projected it across a 3D object (like your continent), you could get a shape that could still be called a "circle" in some senses but would find both cities on hills and cities in valleys. LCB still wouldn't kill everyone though.

A circle is always euclidean. So no, it couldn't be called 'circle'.

darbythegambler
2011-01-23, 02:25 PM
when making an Artificer build, i saw that the Artisan line of feats had a little subscript. I looked at the meaning of the subscript, and it stated "You may take this feat multiple times, it's effects stack". Naturally, I thought this meant i can have free, timeless item making. Then came the errata... :smallfrown:

big teej
2011-01-23, 02:30 PM
not me but a buddy of mine

misread combat reflexes and we went a whole session (we were just starting to play)

with combat reflexes meaning you get a number of attacks = to your dex bonus per an attack of opportunity

we also didn't know you only got one per a turn

basically

taking this feat meant you just had to provoke an attack of opportunity, and then unleash dex bonus attacks at the baddie.

yea......

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-23, 02:36 PM
My brother was rather disappointed when he learned that Turn Undead wasn't a transformative effect.

The Shadowmind
2011-01-23, 02:45 PM
My brother was rather disappointed when he learned that Turn Undead wasn't a transformative effect.

I was too. But it was the first time hearing the phrase was while playing Morrowind, and I though the spell was glitched because it didn't make the character undead.

sonofzeal
2011-01-23, 03:01 PM
A circle is always euclidean. So no, it couldn't be called 'circle'.
A circle inscribed on a sphere is not euclidean, but is still a circle.

JaronK
2011-01-23, 03:10 PM
Invisible Blade. At first, it looked like free sneak attacks. Then I read the errata...

It is free sneak attacks, you just need the Surprising Riposte feat so that one feint lasts the whole round.

JaronK

Akal Saris
2011-01-23, 03:12 PM
I think it's any number of PrCs when I suddenly realize that it only advances arcane or divine specifically.

Also, when I realized that Favored Enemy only gives a bonus to damage, not attacks. Though PF makes it both, which I like a lot.

Popertop
2011-01-23, 03:13 PM
When I was first starting out, I tried to use Flurry and Two weapon fighting together. Yeah, that was a rude awakening to the murky swamp that is the 3.5 ruleset.

Psyren
2011-01-23, 03:22 PM
Metashadow feats disappointed me too. "Mysteries get their own metamagic! AWES- oh... 1/day. Ugh."

And Psionic Body was a letdown also, once I realized Metapsionic Feats weren't actually Psionic Feats. :smallyuk:

sonofzeal
2011-01-23, 03:35 PM
And Psionic Body was a letdown also, once I realized Metapsionic Feats weren't actually Psionic Feats. :smallyuk:
Oh now that's just nitpickey. =P

Ilmryn
2011-01-23, 04:55 PM
I was going to build a crit-based build around the talenta sharrash, which had an awesome 19-20/x4 crit. Then I read the errata...

sonofzeal
2011-01-23, 05:45 PM
I was going to build a crit-based build around the talenta sharrash, which had an awesome 19-20/x4 crit. Then I read the errata...
Kaorti Resin Scimitar has an 18-20/x4 crit.

SiuiS
2011-01-23, 06:06 PM
Built a "paladin" who was a sociopathic warlock 1/fighter 1/eldritch knight 8 for a tenth level game. I used some sneaky tricks to qual for the eldritch knight early, and functionally had full BaB -1 on a blaster Mage. Full adamantine (rustproof, calling, quick release, buoyant, etc) plate armor, darkwood tower shield (rot/fire proof, buoyant, calling, sizing, etc), the "perceived honor" feats transferred over from Rokugan so I could detect as LG even as a murderer. Obtain familiar/improved familiar for my paladin "warhorse", hideous blow for "smite evil" (apparently everything I hit was evil ;P ) and man O man, that DM just could not out me to the rest of the (lawful, good, some exalted) party.

And then I reread the warlock section on how +arcane casterPprCs advance warlock as well-- and realized that a small wording difference prevents warlock from qualifying for eldritch knight! The entire build (now level 13) was illegal.

Of course, my rebuild was just as bad, balance wise, but that was a kick in the pants.

Vknight
2011-01-23, 06:52 PM
Rangers or any Class that summons in 4e when you realize they take an equal action to do anything.

I had a build specificall designed about summoning 3creatures to fight for me. Ruined it was beautiful, you summons sorround the target beating them 1marks so if the guy stands he gets attacked another if an ally attacks the guy he gets to knock them prone with an attack. I could have soloed solo's!

Also when the DM stated that you could only have 1summon out even if it came from a different power source.

Brom
2011-01-23, 07:04 PM
When I found out you couldn't rapid shot multi-shots. I had a dedicated archer who was designed to be both designated single target damage and anti-mob duty.

*Cries* No full attack actions using 3 shots which each have 3 greater magic weapon'd flame arrows for me =/

I was ultimately phased out by the Cleavebeast -.-

Psyren
2011-01-23, 09:17 PM
Oh now that's just nitpickey. =P

RAW often is :smallannoyed: For what its worth, I'd certainly make them count at my table.
They are actually labeled [Metapsionic] rather than [Psionic], and every reference I've seen takes pains to distinguish them (e.g. Feat Leech and Psion bonus feats.)

It annoys me to this day, particularly since Pathfinder didn't fix it...

Cerlis
2011-01-23, 09:27 PM
A friend of mine and I tried to build a sneak-attacking sorceror build using scorching ray to get well over 100d6 worth of damage... until we saw that the SA damage only applies to the first ray. Stupid barrage rules...

if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-23, 09:32 PM
Just had TWO right now... yeah I am a bit pissed:smallannoyed:

I was thinking on a gish build, and while checking the spell compendium for good spells, I came to Steelsance (pg 206) which let's you "animate" two daggers or swords (not specified so I think RAW greatswords are good), they float and attack enemies on your turn, and since there is no action specified (as with other weapon generating spells like mage's sword) I assumed the attacks were a free action.

Then I had this awesome mental image of a warrior who has two BFS strapped to his back, he draws both of them toss them into the air and then the swords start levitating around him, hacking the surrounding enemies... so I decide I wanted an item of Steeldance.

A continuous Item at CL 5 would cost 30 K... meh more than I wanted but something I would pay for, then I realized the swords would attack at a 5+Int or cha bonus.... stupid "the swords attack at your CL +key spellcasting modifier" line :smallannoyed:

Then I though... "hey no worries I can get an Eternal wand, should be cheaper and IIRC they used your CL to determine the effects of the spell" so I open the MiC flip towards the Eternal Wand entry and
DAMMIT!! 3rd level eternal wand have CL of 5 AND they cost ~ 10K GP

So yeah, I know that dismay....

Ilmryn
2011-01-23, 09:45 PM
Kaorti Resin Scimitar has an 18-20/x4 crit.
Where is that?

Shade Kerrin
2011-01-23, 10:00 PM
DAMMIT!! 3rd level eternal wand have CL of 5 AND they cost ~ 10K GP

So yeah, I know that dismay....

Can't you multiply the price to increase the CL? If not, you're custom-making already, and have already settled for limited times a day, so why not do it cheaper?

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-23, 10:20 PM
I would like to make it as simple as possible, plus cost is too high for my tastes ( price formula is CL X Spell level X 2000) so If I wanted something with a reasonable chance of hitting... it gets pricey.

sonofzeal
2011-01-23, 11:10 PM
Where is that?
BY THE POWER OF GOOGLE.......! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a)

Shade Kerrin
2011-01-23, 11:25 PM
I would like to make it as simple as possible, plus cost is too high for my tastes ( price formula is CL X Spell level X 2000) so If I wanted something with a reasonable chance of hitting... it gets pricey.

Fair point, although on the other hand having two self-propelled Greatswords is a fairly major trick to pull off.(Dramatically speaking)

Vknight
2011-01-23, 11:30 PM
But the idea would be amazing to see implemented with some homebrew we could have an item that is more cost effective and/or a power that is as well.

That or a Psionic Class that gets no PP so a varient Soul-Knife that instead levitates Weapons.

Shade Kerrin
2011-01-23, 11:34 PM
Actually I have seen a homebrew PrC somewhere on this forum that does just that. It specialized in the Dancing Weapon spell, and could eventually levitate 3 weapons at once. Pity I can't remember the link...

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-23, 11:38 PM
Fair point, although on the other hand having two self-propelled Greatswords is a fairly major trick to pull off.(Dramatically speaking)

Best part of the spell... it doesn't specify weapon size, so by RAW I could animate a pair of collosal Great swords :smallcool:


Actually I have seen a homebrew PrC somewhere on this forum that does just that. It specialized in the Dancing Weapon spell, and could eventually levitate 3 weapons at once. Pity I can't remember the link...

You mean this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8475196&postcount=6)?

Ashram
2011-01-23, 11:39 PM
A class feature from Pathfinder's paladin reminded me of this.

Original text: A paladin who deals damage to any evil creature they declared their smite on deals double damage to that creature.

Me: =D

Errata text: A paladin who deals damage to any evil creature they declared their smite on deals double damage to that creature on the first, and only the first, confirmed hit of the smite.

Me: FUUUU-

Shade Kerrin
2011-01-23, 11:41 PM
Yeah, that's the one

Vknight
2011-01-24, 12:01 AM
It is beautiful but I must make a variant Soul-Kinfe which shall become the pen ultimate! *Evil Laughter*

Though I do infact love that Presitge Class but I'm going to make a Variant Soul-Knife.
He will give up his Mind Blade to instead levitate swords. As power increases the longer he can do as such how many until he controls 3whirling blades.

Now I leave work to do must I!

Fizban
2011-01-24, 02:49 AM
Just had TWO right now... yeah I am a bit pissed:smallannoyed:
I'm a little confused: if you're a gish build, why can't you cast it yourself? If you can't afford the spells known then you could use a Runestaff to pick it up instead.

Runestar
2011-01-24, 04:41 AM
Originally thought LAs were underpriced (LA+4 for a fire giant PC?), until it was pointed out to me that you were supposed to add the monster's racial HD to it to get the ECL. Apparently, in 3.0, LA = 3.5's ECL. :smalltongue:

Suddenly, no monster seemed worth playing anymore...:smalleek:

Dante & Vergil
2011-01-24, 05:31 AM
I've had several over the years of playing D&D.
The first actually involve my friend's misreading of spellcasting advancing prestige classes, he thought that every level increased your spell levels, not class levels. Well this rubbed off on me and saw the 3.0 True Necromancer class and thought that it was tops, though it still didn't feel right, because that's not how the spells progress normally in the base class themselves. After seeing some example builds on the net using various prestige classes, I found that my feelings of my friend's interpretaions of those classes was well founded, but it made the True Necromancer suck to a major level.
The Second involved me playing a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer a few or so years ago, and with my misunderstanding of how Ray of Enfeeblement worked. I thought that repeated castings stacked, but my DM did too, at the time. So that was my schtick, debuffing like crazy with the Ray and Kelgore's Gravemist, which I eventually used the former sparingly because of my ability to create shadows. It wasn't until after that campaign crashed (Paladins and Clerics of Pelor are teh suck by the way!), I read someone asking a question online about how repeated casting of the same spell stacks, which is, in my case, they didn't with Ray of Enfeeblement.

bokodasu
2011-01-24, 07:53 AM
I just made a really neat half-giant psychic warrior based around doing stuff with a psicrystal. I must have read that entry a dozen times over a week of building before the line about only psion and wilder levels advancing psicrystal powers finally sunk in.

2xMachina
2011-01-24, 08:04 AM
I just made a really neat half-giant psychic warrior based around doing stuff with a psicrystal. I must have read that entry a dozen times over a week of building before the line about only psion and wilder levels advancing psicrystal powers finally sunk in.

Sorry to break it to you, but Psiwarrior DO work with psicrystals


Psicrystal abilities are based on the owner’s levels in psionic classes. Levels from other classes do not count toward the owner’s level for purposes of psicrystal abilities. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm#psicrystals)

No specific psionic classes.

Greenish
2011-01-24, 08:07 AM
Errata text: A paladin who deals damage to any evil creature they declared their smite on deals double damage to that creature on the first, and only the first, confirmed hit of the smite.:smallsigh: Paladins actually being a threat to evil creatures? Must ban!

It is beautiful but I must make a variant Soul-Kinfe which shall become the pen ultimate! *Evil Laughter*"Penultimate" means "second to the last". Soulknife, being tier 5, are already penultimate.

I just made a really neat half-giant psychic warrior based around doing stuff with a psicrystal. I must have read that entry a dozen times over a week of building before the line about only psion and wilder levels advancing psicrystal powers finally sunk in.Hasn't that been errata'ed?

Eldan
2011-01-24, 08:31 AM
A bit of explanation first:

This was our second ever session. And we were very, very naive back then. But still.

"Hey! I found this feat called "Weapon Finesse". With it, my bard can add dexterity to hitting and damage!"
"Man! That's, like, a +3! Whoa!"

Then we found out it was instead of strength, and only to hit, and were very sad.

Erom
2011-01-24, 08:34 AM
"Penultimate" means "second to the last". Soulknife, being tier 5, are already penultimate.
Penultimate is one of those words whose common usage goes both ways: "Second to the Ultimate" can mean, as you have used it, "second to the end" but it's more commonly used as "second to the best".

bokodasu
2011-01-24, 08:44 AM
Sorry to break it to you, but Psiwarrior DO work with psicrystals

Which is why I built that character in the first place! And then you get to the line in the actual psicrystal entry: "Its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice (counting only levels in psion or wilder)"

So no hit dice = no feats or BAB = the complete ruination of what I wanted to do with my psicrystal. (Well, not actually complete. But it did change what I was doing, so I rebuilt with psionic meditation instead, and then I could fit in Extend Power, so it's all good.)

Edit: although if it's been errata'd, that would be good to know, because I like the pet rocks, and there was a cute bit about how her guisarme and psicrystal were made from the same vein of deep crystal, which made me happy.

Greenish
2011-01-24, 08:48 AM
Penultimate is one of those words whose common usage goes both ways: "Second to the Ultimate" can mean, as you have used it, "second to the end" but it's more commonly used as "second to the best".Well, my dictionary lacks this more common usage. Still, the sentence doesn't make much sense either way.

Kris Strife
2011-01-24, 09:09 AM
I think it was supposed to be a pun on "The Pen is Mightier than the Sword."

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-24, 10:47 AM
I'm a little confused: if you're a gish build, why can't you cast it yourself? If you can't afford the spells known then you could use a Runestaff to pick it up instead.

While the idea came from toying with a Gish build, I did not intend to use said item in the gish, exactly for the reason you outlined; the idea was for other characters to use it (having that item animate colossal swords while being a halfling rogue is hilarious).

2xMachina
2011-01-24, 10:54 AM
Which is why I built that character in the first place! And then you get to the line in the actual psicrystal entry: "Its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice (counting only levels in psion or wilder)"

So no hit dice = no feats or BAB = the complete ruination of what I wanted to do with my psicrystal. (Well, not actually complete. But it did change what I was doing, so I rebuilt with psionic meditation instead, and then I could fit in Extend Power, so it's all good.)

Edit: although if it's been errata'd, that would be good to know, because I like the pet rocks, and there was a cute bit about how her guisarme and psicrystal were made from the same vein of deep crystal, which made me happy.

:( Stupid thing. So, the Psicrystal have all the special abilities, and 0 HD...

ajkkjjk52
2011-01-24, 12:53 PM
Pathfinder's Vital Strike feat tree. ):

Vknight
2011-01-24, 01:47 PM
Well, my dictionary lacks this more common usage. Still, the sentence doesn't make much sense either way.

It also does not help I was posting it at 1:30 in the morning were I am.
But the point is the idea for it is to take it from being at the bottom & at least brining it to the middle.
After all if he's walking around with 2-7swords it would be truly impressive.
Then those swords fly into the air & like a blender of doom it activates.

Also as I said I am building this & will eventually post it.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-24, 03:46 PM
It's because the locate city bomb has no vertical height to it's effect; thus causing no fall damage. Or something to that effect.

That's weird, because then you have to assume that the ground is flat, and it's not. The world is round. So the locate city spell would need to go up(into mountains and floating cities) and down(valley's and the underdark) for it to work. Otherwise you end up with only cities that intersect the 2D circle from your point of casting.

My opinion: Locate City bomb works.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-01-24, 04:32 PM
That's weird, because then you have to assume that the ground is flat, and it's not. The world is round. So the locate city spell would need to go up(into mountains and floating cities) and down(valley's and the underdark) for it to work. Otherwise you end up with only cities that intersect the 2D circle from your point of casting.

My opinion: Locate City bomb works.

It's actually not that they can't be pushed by Explosive Spell, it's that Explosive Spell requires [area type other than circle, which I can't remember without C. Arc. in front of me], and can't be applied in the first place. It's about the same reason you can't use a Teleport Bomb. The Fell Drain version (probably) works though.

FMArthur
2011-01-24, 04:57 PM
You can't read through this spell for the first time without your ideas based on it being crushed at the end. You can't.

Threesteel
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous
Target: One weapon of up to Large size (greatsword, shortspear, and so on) in your possession
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No

You split the target weapon into three exact duplicates of the original weapon. These duplicates immediately launch themselves at a target or targets of your choice within Close range (you may direct one or more of the weapons at the same target or split them up among three different targets). Make a ranged attack roll for each weapon (using your ranged attack bonus or the ranged attack bonus of a fighter of your caster level, whichever is higher) as if you were proficient in using the weapon in the normal manner. (For example, if used on a greatsword you would make a ranged attack roll as if you were proficient in greatsword, without the normal penalty for using an improvised throwing weapon.) The weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage if it does not have one already.

Each duplicate that hits deals damage as if you had struck the target with the weapon (including any special effects such as bane, smite evil, critical hits, sneak attacks, Weapon Focus, and so on). Your Strength bonus does not apply, since the force of the weapon comes from the spell, not your own Strength. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one.

Casting the spell destroys the targeted weapon to create the duplicates, and the duplicates are destroyed whether or not they hit. Because of this, the spell is rarely used on magic weapons, though it is far more effective with weapons which have greater magic. It cannot be cast on artifacts, natural weapons, weapons animated with animate objects or similar spells, or weaponlike magic creations (such as Mordenkainen's sword).

Reynard
2011-01-24, 05:03 PM
You can't read through this spell for the first time without your ideas based on it being crushed at the end. You can't.

Threesteel
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous
Target: One weapon of up to Large size (greatsword, shortspear, and so on) in your possession
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No

You split the target weapon into three exact duplicates of the original weapon. These duplicates immediately launch themselves at a target or targets of your choice within Close range (you may direct one or more of the weapons at the same target or split them up among three different targets). Make a ranged attack roll for each weapon (using your ranged attack bonus or the ranged attack bonus of a fighter of your caster level, whichever is higher) as if you were proficient in using the weapon in the normal manner. (For example, if used on a greatsword you would make a ranged attack roll as if you were proficient in greatsword, without the normal penalty for using an improvised throwing weapon.) The weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage if it does not have one already.

Each duplicate that hits deals damage as if you had struck the target with the weapon (including any special effects such as bane, smite evil, critical hits, sneak attacks, Weapon Focus, and so on). Your Strength bonus does not apply, since the force of the weapon comes from the spell, not your own Strength. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one.
Awesome.

Casting the spell destroys the targeted weapon to create the duplicates, and the duplicates are destroyed whether or not they hit. Because of this, the spell is rarely used on magic weapons, though it is far more effective with weapons which have greater magic. It cannot be cast on artifacts, natural weapons, weapons animated with animate objects or similar spells, or weaponlike magic creations (such as Mordenkainen's sword).
BAAALLLLLLLSSS.

Vknight
2011-01-24, 05:05 PM
It's a last ditch weapon

Coidzor
2011-01-24, 05:08 PM
It's a last ditch weapon

Not even that. It just becomes a bad spell with a costly material component. The best use would be something like a greatsword with GMW cast on it, which is 2 3rd level spells and 50 gp blown on an attack that's going to be less effective generally than a single fireball or lightning bolt.

Vknight
2011-01-24, 05:12 PM
True but when you need something that looks awesome & leaves no evidence this is the way to go.
Also most DMs would probably let you have it so that if its magic it's enchantment bonus is dropped by1. Well thats what I would do.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-24, 05:16 PM
Not even that. It just becomes a bad spell with a costly material component. The best use would be something like a greatsword with GMW cast on it, which is 2 3rd level spells and 50 gp blown on an attack that's going to be less effective generally than a single fireball or lightning bolt.

Use Wall of Iron + fabricate to get a ton of disposable weapons... craft large morning stars + greater mighty wallop for extra fun

(still expensive but the mental image is hilarious)

FMArthur
2011-01-24, 05:21 PM
I was about to suggest Fire Shuriken but I fell into the spell's insidious trap again.

Coidzor
2011-01-24, 05:26 PM
True but when you need something that looks awesome & leaves no evidence this is the way to go.

No. No it isn't.


Also most DMs would probably let you have it so that if its magic it's enchantment bonus is dropped by1. Well thats what I would do.

That's still a horrible deal that no one would want to pay. +2 being downgraded to +1 instead is still a 6K price tag.

Vknight
2011-01-24, 05:31 PM
True but I love the spell idea & with some Homebrew it could actually be useful

Khatoblepas
2011-01-24, 05:31 PM
Use Wall of Iron + fabricate to get a ton of disposable weapons... craft large morning stars + greater mighty wallop for extra fun

(still expensive but the mental image is hilarious)

Be a Shadowcraft Mage and make Invisible Shadowiron morningstars that are 120% real.

Enjoy watching your enemies squirm as they are beaten to death by invisible quasireal maces.

"I'm not touching yoooou."

FMArthur
2011-01-24, 05:33 PM
The Soulknife's Mind Blade is a viable target. So is a weapon called with the Call Weaponry power, but due to action economy it is the worse option here. So. How can you do this without being awful? :smallamused:

Vknight
2011-01-24, 05:42 PM
I shall find a way much like the Soul-Knife variant I'm making that is actually useful.

Coidzor
2011-01-24, 05:44 PM
True but I love the spell idea & with some Homebrew it could actually be useful

Well, that is the idea of it being in the thread, yeah.


You can't read through this spell for the first time without your ideas based on it being crushed at the end. You can't.

Threesteel
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous
Target: One weapon of up to Large size (greatsword, shortspear, and so on) in your possession
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No

You split the target weapon into three exact duplicates of the original weapon. These duplicates immediately launch themselves at a target or targets of your choice within Close range (you may direct one or more of the weapons at the same target or split them up among three different targets). Make a ranged attack roll for each weapon (using your ranged attack bonus or the ranged attack bonus of a fighter of your caster level, whichever is higher) as if you were proficient in using the weapon in the normal manner. (For example, if used on a greatsword you would make a ranged attack roll as if you were proficient in greatsword, without the normal penalty for using an improvised throwing weapon.) The weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage if it does not have one already.

Each duplicate that hits deals damage as if you had struck the target with the weapon (including any special effects such as bane, smite evil, critical hits, sneak attacks, Weapon Focus, and so on). Your Strength bonus does not apply, since the force of the weapon comes from the spell, not your own Strength. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one.

Casting the spell destroys the targeted weapon to create the duplicates, and the duplicates are destroyed whether or not they hit. Because of this, the spell is rarely used on magic weapons, though it is far more effective with weapons which have greater magic. It cannot be cast on artifacts, natural weapons, weapons animated with animate objects or similar spells, or weaponlike magic creations (such as Mordenkainen's sword).

What's this from, by the way?

Doomboy911
2011-01-24, 05:46 PM
Rookie mistake I thought I got sixth level spells at level six. Made sense to this eager bard.

Vknight
2011-01-24, 05:48 PM
I had the exact same thing happen to me first time I played

SurlySeraph
2011-01-24, 05:58 PM
I had a great idea until I looked back and saw the target was "One weapon of up to Large size in your possession." Ugh, useless.

For a non-DnD example, I was working on an Exalted build focused on Sidereal Astrology, a kind of fate magic. I got a build with which a starting character could reliably get 40 successes on the effect roll with a few days of planning and no outside help whatsoever. For reference, it requires only 24 successes on the effect roll to put an overpowering effect on 100 million people for 2,000 years.
With a couple weeks of work, this character could easily give every mortal in Creation +3 defense and a 30% greater chance of success on combat rolls for a particular purpose. Every single human would become a living weapon powerful enough to mildly inconvenience a typical Terrestrial Exalted. He could easily achieve the Thousand-Streams River, a plan to make human society capable of fending for itself without Exalted help, in under a year - and in a way that would really, really annoy the people who came up with the Thousand-Streams River idea and have been working on it for the past thousand years.
Then it occurred to me that the dice caps, which limit the number of extra dice and extra successes you can apply to a roll, probably apply to using different Charms to add to things that add to a roll.
So much for that build.

Derjuin
2011-01-24, 05:59 PM
Looking through the MM to find tasty monsters to Wild Shape into (like Remorhaz), then re-reading the Master of Many Forms class and finding...oh. No magical beast wild shape.

:frown:

Oh, and Warblades aren't proficient with heavy armor. :smallfrown::smallfrown::smallfrown:

FMArthur
2011-01-24, 06:31 PM
Well, that is the idea of it being in the thread, yeah.



What's this from, by the way?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20030730a


I was made aware of it by Arguskos in this thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184226

So blame him for this conundrum. :smalltongue:
Outside of Wall of Iron fabrication (which is slightly cheesy), it's not looking too good to me. But maybe there are other abilities out there which are similar but less galling?

Reynard
2011-01-24, 06:42 PM
More Exalted.Hooray for glorious kill-combos. Using this should be only done with your STs permission. Seriously.

Preparation step one: Get a combo of (Dawn Solution) Peony Blossom Attack + (Dawn Solution) Blazing Solar Bolt. And the First Excellency, if you feel like it.

Step one: Go and stand on a hill, mountain, something big. Activate a trio of Scene-Long charms, Unsurpassed (Sight) Discipline, Unsurpassed (Hearing and Touch) Discipline, and Unsurpassed (Smell and Taste) Discipline. Also, Eye of the UCS if you want to overkill it.

Step two: Make those awareness rolls, looking for enemies. If any exist, you should find them, unless you're very, very unlucky.

Step three: Activate the combo. Pay a total of 8 motes (Plus any excellency dice), 2 wp.

Step four:
http://content.photos-room.com/previews/Waste_of_Existence_2_by_ChrisCold.jpg
Note that; A) You're at the very center of that violence, and that B) Only enemies are effected by the golden death wave.

Step four: Rest in the knowledge that pretty much everything hostile to you on this plane of existence is dead.
Then it was pointed out that post-errata Peony Blossom is now a Simple Charm, so couldn't be combo'd.

Sadly, this prevent 2 very reasonable combos using lesser versions of the charms.

AslanCross
2011-01-24, 06:53 PM
Daring Warrior. "I can take Swashbuckler levels and still get bonus fighter feats?! Aweso---oh."

Also, realizing that the sorcerer is one level behind the wizard in spell progression.

Most recently, and most shocking: Most arcane PrCs (including practically ALL the PrCs in Complete Arcane) do not grant increases in caster level, only spells per day/spells known. Even the Incantatrix doesn't. I don't know if this was fixed in the errata.

Later Arcane PrCs (example: Jade Phoenix Mage) actually have a class feature called "Spellcasting" that explicitly improves caster level, as well as spells per day/spells known.

Another: Holy Sword stops working if you let go of the sword, so you can't give the fighter his own Holy Avenger. :smallsigh:

mootoall
2011-01-24, 06:59 PM
You can't read through this spell for the first time without your ideas based on it being crushed at the end. You can't.

Threesteel
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous
Target: One weapon of up to Large size (greatsword, shortspear, and so on) in your possession
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No

You split the target weapon into three exact duplicates of the original weapon. These duplicates immediately launch themselves at a target or targets of your choice within Close range (you may direct one or more of the weapons at the same target or split them up among three different targets). Make a ranged attack roll for each weapon (using your ranged attack bonus or the ranged attack bonus of a fighter of your caster level, whichever is higher) as if you were proficient in using the weapon in the normal manner. (For example, if used on a greatsword you would make a ranged attack roll as if you were proficient in greatsword, without the normal penalty for using an improvised throwing weapon.) The weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage if it does not have one already.

Each duplicate that hits deals damage as if you had struck the target with the weapon (including any special effects such as bane, smite evil, critical hits, sneak attacks, Weapon Focus, and so on). Your Strength bonus does not apply, since the force of the weapon comes from the spell, not your own Strength. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one.

Casting the spell destroys the targeted weapon to create the duplicates, and the duplicates are destroyed whether or not they hit. Because of this, the spell is rarely used on magic weapons, though it is far more effective with weapons which have greater magic. It cannot be cast on artifacts, natural weapons, weapons animated with animate objects or similar spells, or weaponlike magic creations (such as Mordenkainen's sword).

That's just ... wrong.


Be a Shadowcraft Mage and make Invisible Shadowiron morningstars that are 120% real.

Enjoy watching your enemies squirm as they are beaten to death by invisible quasireal maces.

"I'm not touching yoooou."

Aaaaand we're back to right again.

Vknight
2011-01-24, 07:04 PM
It is so beautiful makes me cry

Coidzor
2011-01-24, 07:36 PM
Also, realizing that the sorcerer is one level behind the wizard in spell progression. Yeah, this is still kinda annoying even having known it for awhile.


Most recently, and most shocking: Most arcane PrCs (including practically ALL the PrCs in Complete Arcane) do not grant increases in caster level, only spells per day/spells known. Even the Incantatrix doesn't. I don't know if this was fixed in the errata. :smallconfused::smalleek: Thankfully I don't know anyone who plays it that way.

AslanCross
2011-01-24, 07:44 PM
You can't read through this spell for the first time without your ideas based on it being crushed at the end. You can't.

Threesteel
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous
Target: One weapon of up to Large size (greatsword, shortspear, and so on) in your possession
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No

You split the target weapon into three exact duplicates of the original weapon. These duplicates immediately launch themselves at a target or targets of your choice within Close range (you may direct one or more of the weapons at the same target or split them up among three different targets). Make a ranged attack roll for each weapon (using your ranged attack bonus or the ranged attack bonus of a fighter of your caster level, whichever is higher) as if you were proficient in using the weapon in the normal manner. (For example, if used on a greatsword you would make a ranged attack roll as if you were proficient in greatsword, without the normal penalty for using an improvised throwing weapon.) The weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage if it does not have one already.

Each duplicate that hits deals damage as if you had struck the target with the weapon (including any special effects such as bane, smite evil, critical hits, sneak attacks, Weapon Focus, and so on). Your Strength bonus does not apply, since the force of the weapon comes from the spell, not your own Strength. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one.

Casting the spell destroys the targeted weapon to create the duplicates, and the duplicates are destroyed whether or not they hit. Because of this, the spell is rarely used on magic weapons, though it is far more effective with weapons which have greater magic. It cannot be cast on artifacts, natural weapons, weapons animated with animate objects or similar spells, or weaponlike magic creations (such as Mordenkainen's sword).

Still sounds like something an Artificer would love to abuse. He'd scribe this and use it on any of the emergency swords he's crafted. Rather impractical, but at least it still approaches usable levels.

Coidzor
2011-01-24, 07:57 PM
Still sounds like something an Artificer would love to abuse.

How, exactly? If one's actually making them the best damage is from a large greatsword(100 gp[50*2]), huge longsword(x2 for each size category increase from medium would be 15*4=60) , or gargantuan shortsword (10*6=60 again). Well, translating a Large weapon into 3.5 terms, anyway. Otherwise, it's still 50/3 gp in raw materials and the time to make it, which is probably the bigger thing actually, the time investment to make them one's self, followed by the cost of either buying or making a greatsword and scroll to be used regularly in combat. Hmm.

Though infusions would be the only way of getting something nifty on the weapons without burning money by the pallet rather than by the fistful. I'm still not seeing much in the way of abuse. 3*(5d6+1+X) damage (personal weapon augmentation infusion to make the weapon bane) split up as one see's fit amongst 3 different targets is about the best I can think of, and that involves transporting a number of large-sized objects around with one's self or dropping the damage down to 4d6+1+X per sword by hauling medium greatswords around.

FMArthur
2011-01-24, 08:02 PM
By sheer coincidence I keep coming across ways for a spellcaster to ignore material components and then coming back to this spell with hope in my eyes. Some day, I will learn not to trust my flawed instinct. :smallfrown:

AslanCross
2011-01-24, 08:05 PM
How, exactly? If one's actually making them the best damage is from a large greatsword(100 gp[50*2]), huge longsword(x2 for each size category increase from medium would be 15*4=60) , or gargantuan shortsword (10*6=60 again). Well, translating a Large weapon into 3.5 terms, anyway. Otherwise, it's still 50/3 gp in raw materials and the time to make it, which is probably the bigger thing actually, the time investment to make them one's self, followed by the cost of either buying or making a greatsword and scroll to be used regularly in combat. Hmm.

Though infusions would be the only way of getting something nifty on the weapons without burning money by the pallet rather than by the fistful. I'm still not seeing much in the way of abuse. 3*(5d6+1+X) damage (personal weapon augmentation infusion to make the weapon bane) split up as one see's fit amongst 3 different targets is about the best I can think of, and that involves transporting a number of large-sized objects around with one's self or dropping the damage down to 4d6+1+X per sword by hauling medium greatswords around.

Touche. :P It was just something I thought up off the top of my head.

dspeyer
2011-01-24, 09:46 PM
You can't read through this spell for the first time without your ideas based on it being crushed at the end. You can't.

Target: One weapon of up to Large size (greatsword, shortspear, and so on) in your possession

...

Casting the spell destroys the targeted weapon to create the duplicates, and the duplicates are destroyed whether or not they hit. Because of this, the spell is rarely used on magic weapons, though it is far more effective with weapons which have greater magic. It cannot be cast on artifacts, natural weapons, weapons animated with animate objects or similar spells, or weaponlike magic creations (such as Mordenkainen's sword).

It doesn't forbid using it on cursed weapons. It's a way to get rid of them.

Depending on how improvised weapons work out, this could be a handy way to destroy stuff. Pick up the kobold BBEG and swing him at his minions as a club. Then cast this.

Doggie_arf
2011-01-24, 09:53 PM
Something from my early days of gaming, when the party wizard didn't realize that True Strike was a Personal only spell. We spent a couple of levels buffing the fighter to make those greatsword Power Attacks hit, before we realized our mistake.

Those were the days........

shadow_archmagi
2011-01-24, 09:58 PM
Most recently it was me drooling over Citadel Elite PrC (Sharn, City of Towers) and all the cool builds it opened up. a 5 level full BAB class that gets +1 AC every level, denies 1 point of opponents' dex per level, gets 2 bonus feats, a smite attack, some skill bonuses, and RP royal connections!

Then I read the Errata. They take away the bonus feats, cap the AC bonus to a flat +1, and change the attack bonus to a flat +1.

SuperNerf. :smallfrown:

For me it was drooling over the Sharn crafting feat that grants flight to constructs and improves all flight-related magic items, but, on closer inspection, ONLY WORKS IN SHARN.

SurlySeraph
2011-01-24, 10:13 PM
By sheer coincidence I keep coming across ways for a spellcaster to ignore material components and then coming back to this spell with hope in my eyes. Some day, I will learn not to trust my flawed instinct. :smallfrown:

Hm, what about Raumathari Battlemage? He gets a sword that lets him ignore up to 50 gp of material components. a Large greataxe does 3d6 and should cost 40 gp, so you could deal 9d6 damage for free with that spell. Certainly not spectacular, but usable.

Coidzor
2011-01-24, 10:24 PM
It doesn't forbid using it on cursed weapons. It's a way to get rid of them.

Depending on how improvised weapons work out, this could be a handy way to destroy stuff. Pick up the kobold BBEG and swing him at his minions as a club. Then cast this.

Heh. Ok, now that's a good one. And pretty lulzy too. :smallbiggrin:

senrath
2011-01-24, 10:25 PM
Hm, what about Raumathari Battlemage? He gets a sword that lets him ignore up to 50 gp of material components. a Large greataxe does 3d6 and should cost 40 gp, so you could deal 9d6 damage for free with that spell. Certainly not spectacular, but usable.

Sadly, that doesn't work. The weapon used in the spell isn't the material component. It's just the target of the spell.

JaronK
2011-01-24, 10:31 PM
A sad one for me was when I found out the errata had said that Bloodlines don't apply to Animal Companions. Without that ruling I had made an awesome improvement on the supermount, but with it the improvement was worthless.

JaronK

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-24, 11:00 PM
It doesn't forbid using it on cursed weapons. It's a way to get rid of them.

Depending on how improvised weapons work out, this could be a handy way to destroy stuff. Pick up the kobold BBEG and swing him at his minions as a club. Then cast this.

That would also destroy all the loot on said BBEG...

CycloneJoker
2011-01-24, 11:01 PM
The hundred vermin in the word of dark unity hivemind can bite me.

Coidzor
2011-01-24, 11:03 PM
That would also destroy all the loot on said BBEG...

<_< >_> There's a spell for that. Admittedly, it's a BOEF spell...

Vknight
2011-01-24, 11:21 PM
I was right it is not completly useless!
Grab the Kobolds with the Fighter & launch them at there boss or Fire the Lich at his own Phylactery!

Blackfang108
2011-01-25, 12:27 AM
Daring Warrior. "I can take Swashbuckler levels and still get bonus fighter feats?! Aweso---oh."


I'm going to be AFB for a while, what does Daring Warrior do?

Coidzor
2011-01-25, 12:29 AM
I'm going to be AFB for a while, what does Daring Warrior do?

Let's you advance grace while taking Fighter levels. So you trade a feat in order to get grace to advance.... but only if you're going to take more levels in fighter, rather than allowing for Swashbuckler to derive any benefits.

Vknight
2011-01-25, 12:31 AM
That was a kick in the pants for me also

2xMachina
2011-01-25, 04:35 AM
You can't read through this spell for the first time without your ideas based on it being crushed at the end. You can't.

Threesteel
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous
Target: One weapon of up to Large size (greatsword, shortspear, and so on) in your possession
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No

You split the target weapon into three exact duplicates of the original weapon. These duplicates immediately launch themselves at a target or targets of your choice within Close range (you may direct one or more of the weapons at the same target or split them up among three different targets). Make a ranged attack roll for each weapon (using your ranged attack bonus or the ranged attack bonus of a fighter of your caster level, whichever is higher) as if you were proficient in using the weapon in the normal manner. (For example, if used on a greatsword you would make a ranged attack roll as if you were proficient in greatsword, without the normal penalty for using an improvised throwing weapon.) The weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage if it does not have one already.

Each duplicate that hits deals damage as if you had struck the target with the weapon (including any special effects such as bane, smite evil, critical hits, sneak attacks, Weapon Focus, and so on). Your Strength bonus does not apply, since the force of the weapon comes from the spell, not your own Strength. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one.

Casting the spell destroys the targeted weapon to create the duplicates, and the duplicates are destroyed whether or not they hit. Because of this, the spell is rarely used on magic weapons, though it is far more effective with weapons which have greater magic. It cannot be cast on artifacts, natural weapons, weapons animated with animate objects or similar spells, or weaponlike magic creations (such as Mordenkainen's sword).


Be a Shadowcraft Mage and make Invisible Shadowiron morningstars that are 120% real.

Enjoy watching your enemies squirm as they are beaten to death by invisible quasireal maces.

"I'm not touching yoooou."

Archer's Broken Phantasm :P

Smiling Knight
2011-01-25, 07:26 AM
That's exactly what I thought of. I guess Shirou has some feat that replaces the cost of the swords with Con/Hp/San damage.

Douglas
2011-01-25, 09:39 AM
I'm going to be AFB for a while, what does Daring Warrior do?
It makes Fighter and Swashbuckler levels stack for Grace and satisfying Fighter-only prerequisites for feats like Weapon Specialization. If you only read the summary line, though, it's easy to make the mistake of thinking it also makes them stack for how many Fighter bonus feats you get.

So, a Fighter 4/Swash 4 with Daring Warrior:
Has the Grace bonus of a level 8 Swashbuckler.
Satisfies the prerequisite to take Greater Weapon Focus.
Has five three Fighter bonus feats.

That last line and the strikethrough correction in it illustrate the common misreading of Daring Warrior.

Coidzor
2011-01-25, 10:15 AM
It's a trap because it wastes a feat for something that would only benefit the swashbuckler focused character if he wanted to throw more good feats after bad by taking Weapon Specialization and its ilk. :smallyuk:

Swashbucklers have far better things to spend their feats on, heck, spending two feats on Imperious Command and an exalted feat, that one promptly loses forever by huffing a kitten, would give them greater benefit than taking the feat and then weapon specialization.

The White Knight
2011-01-25, 10:42 AM
Our group failed to understand the difference between swift, immediate and free actions for the longest time. The party's Elan was basking in nigh hit point damage immunity as he spammed resilience anytime something hit him. He was a sort of psionic gish, so he kept a healthy supply of power points by critfishing with pre-errata mindfeeder weaponry.

I was actually quite content when I discovered all the little things that were wrong with this, haha.

EDIT: the fact that this was the worst that came out of our misunderstanding of these action types is astonishing, actually. I guess we were fortunate.

Stegyre
2011-01-25, 02:33 PM
Penultimate is one of those words whose common usage goes both ways: "Second to the Ultimate" can mean, as you have used it, "second to the end" but it's more commonly used as "second to the best".
No, (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/penultimate) not (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/penultimate) even (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/penultimate) then (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/penultimate?view=uk).

Those folks you hear using it to mean "second to the best"? They're doing it wrong (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EpicFail). That's the joke.

senrath
2011-01-25, 02:36 PM
No, (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/penultimate) not (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/penultimate) even (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/penultimate) then (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/penultimate?view=uk).

Those folks you hear using it to mean "second to the best"? They're doing it wrong (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EpicFail). That's the joke.

Not entirely. It's possible to use it correctly (meaning next to last) and still use it to refer to the second best thing. You just have to be ordering your list from worst to best.

Stegyre
2011-01-25, 02:58 PM
Not entirely. It's possible to use it correctly (meaning next to last) and still use it to refer to the second best thing. You just have to be ordering your list from worst to best.

That's a matter of coincidence, not meaning.

archon_huskie
2011-01-25, 04:04 PM
Werewolf the Apocalypse

in the tabletop rules Cybersenses allows a character to swap one of their normal senses with a tech sense. So you can switch your eye sight to infra-red or nightvision. Or pick up radio frequencies with your ears.

For live-action rules, you have to be carrying a device with the tech's sense to borrow. So you can only switch your vision to nightvision if you are carrying nightvision goggles.

USELESS!

Coidzor
2011-01-25, 05:14 PM
That's a matter of coincidence, not meaning.

Except when people intentionally mean it that way.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-01-25, 05:27 PM
Except when people intentionally mean it that way.

In which case they are, as mentioned, wrong (assuming I correctly remember what you mean by this, which isn't a certainty). I have certainly never heard "penultimate" mean anything other than "second to last".

endoperez
2011-01-25, 06:56 PM
In which case they are, as mentioned, wrong (assuming I correctly remember what you mean by this, which isn't a certainty). I have certainly never heard "penultimate" mean anything other than "second to last".

"That's it for top movies numbers #5, #4 and #3! Join us after the short break when we reveal the penultimate movie of our top 10 list!"

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-25, 07:03 PM
"That's it for top movies numbers #5, #4 and #3! Join us after the short break when we reveal the penultimate movie of our top 10 list!"

Once again, that is a coincidence of organization, not any meaning inherent to the word penultimate. In fact, that is a failure on the part of the reader, since in this case it is correctly being used to indicate the second to the last in the list. (That the second to last is also the second best is the part that is a coincidence.)

Alrissa
2011-01-26, 06:12 AM
You can't read through this spell for the first time without your ideas based on it being crushed at the end. You can't.

Threesteel
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous
Target: One weapon of up to Large size (greatsword, shortspear, and so on) in your possession
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No

You split the target weapon into three exact duplicates of the original weapon. These duplicates immediately launch themselves at a target or targets of your choice within Close range (you may direct one or more of the weapons at the same target or split them up among three different targets). Make a ranged attack roll for each weapon (using your ranged attack bonus or the ranged attack bonus of a fighter of your caster level, whichever is higher) as if you were proficient in using the weapon in the normal manner. (For example, if used on a greatsword you would make a ranged attack roll as if you were proficient in greatsword, without the normal penalty for using an improvised throwing weapon.) The weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage if it does not have one already.

Each duplicate that hits deals damage as if you had struck the target with the weapon (including any special effects such as bane, smite evil, critical hits, sneak attacks, Weapon Focus, and so on). Your Strength bonus does not apply, since the force of the weapon comes from the spell, not your own Strength. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one.

Casting the spell destroys the targeted weapon to create the duplicates, and the duplicates are destroyed whether or not they hit. Because of this, the spell is rarely used on magic weapons, though it is far more effective with weapons which have greater magic. It cannot be cast on artifacts, natural weapons, weapons animated with animate objects or similar spells, or weaponlike magic creations (such as Mordenkainen's sword).

You know... Large Boulders count as a weapon... How many of those fit into a bag of holding anway?

You can also devastate tree branches, steal weapons from your dead enemies, enlarge daggers or clubs. Need I go on?

Greenish
2011-01-26, 08:55 AM
You know... Large Boulders count as a weapon... How many of those fit into a bag of holding anway?

You can also devastate tree branches, steal weapons from your dead enemies, enlarge daggers or clubs. Need I go on?Large sized clubs are 1d8 damage a piece, so the spell would deal a total of 3d8+3 with three attack rolls at close range.

Not a terribly efficient use of spell slots and actions.

big teej
2011-01-26, 12:22 PM
You can't read through this spell for the first time without your ideas based on it being crushed at the end. You can't.

Threesteel
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous
Target: One weapon of up to Large size (greatsword, shortspear, and so on) in your possession
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No
snip


there's a weapon called "shattering dagger" or something like that in the arms and equipment guide

its a dagger that when used EXPLODES into shards dealing something like 2-4d6 damage in a 10 foot raidus

I find this an excellent weapon for the spell, as it detonates and is one use only anyways.

2xMachina
2011-01-26, 12:56 PM
6-12d6 in 10' radius?

At lvl 5, it's good. But fireball might be better, as there's no cost.

big teej
2011-01-26, 01:07 PM
6-12d6 in 10' radius?

At lvl 5, it's good. But fireball might be better, as there's no cost.

don't quote me on the damage, I don't have the book in front of me :smallredface:

and certainly, magic is ALWAYS better

I merely meant that, given the spell, that I feel that the shattering dagger (or whatever its called) is the best weapon for the job.

senrath
2011-01-26, 03:10 PM
I think you mean the Frost Shard Dagger. It costs just over 1k gold, and does 3d6 points of cold damage to everything within 5' on the first successful hit (which then breaks the weapon).

Douglas
2011-01-26, 03:14 PM
I think you mean the Frost Shard Dagger. It costs just over 1k gold, and does 3d6 points of cold damage to everything within 5' on the first successful hit (which then breaks the weapon).
Wow, talk about a piece of crap gold sink. 1000 gp for a one-shot 3d6 5' radius? I'll pass, thanks.

faceroll
2011-01-26, 08:12 PM
Large sized clubs are 1d8 damage a piece, so the spell would deal a total of 3d8+3 with three attack rolls at close range.

Not a terribly efficient use of spell slots and actions.

Chain spell.
And virtually every humanoid enemy carries a weapon. They're easy to come by, and usually not worth hauling around to resell for half cost.

It's a cool spell and with the right set up, could be made pretty useful. Knowledge devotion would work pretty well, me thinks, as would a dragonfire bard, or even just one abusing words of creation.

Dust
2011-01-26, 08:22 PM
It's 4e, a grappler. It was one hell of a build until I learned you can't grab Large enemies.

Beelzebub1111
2011-01-26, 08:25 PM
Fist of Raziel prestige class. Thought that it would make a good Gish class...but to my dismay, it specifies DIVINE spellcasting class in the text of the class.

twas_Brillig
2011-01-26, 08:45 PM
Chain spell.
And virtually every humanoid enemy carries a weapon. They're easy to come by, and usually not worth hauling around to resell for half cost.

It's a cool spell and with the right set up, could be made pretty useful. Knowledge devotion would work pretty well, me thinks, as would a dragonfire bard, or even just one abusing words of creation.

I was going to say, "No, see it targets the weapon..." but then I realized it actually still works; provided you can touch twenty weapons, you can effectively attack sixty times with a sixth level slot. How many builds are there that let you hold an arbitrarily large number of weapons?

Vknight
2011-01-26, 08:52 PM
In 4e
Quick Panther Manuver
Level 1daily
Move your speed & preform this attack on every one you pass.
One Attack roll
2d6damage (Nerfed from 3d8)
No half damage on a miss.

Wait I started next to everyone? Oh $#^!
Also 1attack roll.

Gnoman
2011-01-26, 09:54 PM
Actually, even with magic weapons, that spell could be useful in some situations, as long as the weapon is duplicated in all respects. Just as one example, you could use a club of spell storing (2000 gp) loaded with a fireball spell. That gives you a chance for a triple fireball, which could be extremely powerful in some situations. Or have a 9th-level caster put Magic Missile into it for a chance at 15d4 damage. Still expensive, and not something you'd want to use every encounter, but could still be useful enough to at least consider.

EDIT: Note that in this scenario, you have a club of spell storing until you decide to use the spell. Not something to knock.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-26, 10:47 PM
A Club of Spell Storing costs 8300 gp.

Blackfang108
2011-01-26, 10:58 PM
In 4e
Quick Panther Manuver
Level 1daily
Move your speed & preform this attack on every one you pass.
One Attack roll
2d6damage (Nerfed from 3d8)
No half damage on a miss.

Wait I started next to everyone? Oh $#^!
Also 1attack roll.

It would be one attack roll per target. Not one attack roll period.

Also, according to the character builder:

It only effects ENEMIES, and it DOES do half damage on a miss.

And it's Shift your speed, so you don't have to worry about AoOs.

Where did you read your version?

Vknight
2011-01-26, 11:23 PM
Check some of the first copies of PHB3.
Mine has it worded that way I know it's a missprint know but the idea still holds. Especially if your at an encounters event when you do it & find that sad truth. Luckily mine is rare in that it has that error. Yes mine did not have the half damage either.

onthetown
2011-01-27, 06:44 AM
Misread Exalted Arcanist. I thought it was for all arcane spellcasters, not just spontaneous. I had it all planned out around my wizard until I saw that I had glossed over that one little prereq.

Gnoman
2011-01-27, 08:03 AM
A Club of Spell Storing costs 8300 gp.

My cost calculator must be broken, then. Carry on.

Myth
2011-01-27, 08:14 AM
Neither Eldritch Knight nor Spellsword grant Armor Prof. Spellsword does require it however. Further dismay when the narrow-minded DM did not allow a dip in Dragonslayer.

panaikhan
2011-01-27, 08:31 AM
I was working on a cool Drow rogue.
I was angling for using a rapier in one hand and a hand crossbow in the other. Everything was slotting together perfectly - I could attack with the rapier AND the hand crossbow without drawing AoO for firing or reloading, and reloading was a free action.

Then the huge RAW boulder squashed my plans. There is (still, to my knowledge) no way to reload a hand crossbow that doesn't require two hands - unless you resort to expensive magics or DM fiat.

FMArthur
2011-01-27, 08:34 AM
Misread Exalted Arcanist. I thought it was for all arcane spellcasters, not just spontaneous. I had it all planned out around my wizard until I saw that I had glossed over that one little prereq.

It is for all arcane spellcasters. Didn't you know? Wizards can take Sorceror options with minimal trouble. :smalltongue:

Here are two easy ways to get your wizard casting spontaneously. There are others but I don't remember many and they may not be as universally appealing as these two.

Alacritous Cogitation (feat, Complete Mage p37): leave a slot open to spontaneously cast any spell 1/day. (Not as good as big brother Uncanny Forethought from Exemplars of Evil, but that one doesn't specifically call it spontaneous casting despite being the same thing but Int mod times per day).

Spontaneous Divination (ACF for wizard bonus feats, Complete Champion p52): cast divination spells spontaneously.


I was working on a cool Drow rogue.
I was angling for using a rapier in one hand and a hand crossbow in the other. Everything was slotting together perfectly - I could attack with the rapier AND the hand crossbow without drawing AoO for firing or reloading, and reloading was a free action.

Then the huge RAW boulder squashed my plans. There is (still, to my knowledge) no way to reload a hand crossbow that doesn't require two hands - unless you resort to expensive magics or DM fiat.

Well, there's the Glove of the Master Strategist (Ghostwalk p.71), which acts exactly as a Glove of Storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems/wondrousitems.htm#gloveofStoring) but gives True Strike 1/day and only costs 3600gp. It might be unbalanced relative to its weaker, 10000gp counterpart, but that one's just absurdly overpriced. It is 3.0 material, but was officially updated to 3.5 without any price reduction (it is now a Faint Transmutation however) so it is 100% rules-legal even in a 3.5-only game. You should know that it is probably based on the 3.0 pricing of the Glove of Storing and was likely just something missed by the 3.5 updaters, though.

You could also ask about using Sleight of Hand to juggle, or even use it on a nearby creature to stow your weapon on someone else (free action Sleight of Hand function), reload, and take it back as another free action. I'm sure your DM will be more than willing to let you just juggle after you pull that off. :smallbiggrin: