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The Summoner's Handbook
(A guide to the Pathfinder Summoner. Feel free to chime in with suggestions, links, criticisms, etc. The Summoner's a complicated class and this turned into a LONG handbook. Hope you find it helpful!)
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Contents
1. Contents, Rating System, and Links
2. Introduction and Roles
3. Abilities and Races
4. Skills and Feats
5. Class Features and Multiclassing
6. Eidolons
7. Spells
8. Summons
9. Items
10. FAQ
Ratings
This handbook will use the following rating system:
Red: Awful.
Purple: Meh.
Black: Okay.
Blue: Good.
Cyan: Excellent.
Useful Links
The Summoner Base Class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner) at the Pathfinder SRD.
The 3.5/Pathfinder Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7609693).
And, for those interested in Pathfinder Psionics, the Pathfinder Psionics Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182797).
Introduction and Roles
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Introduction
The Summoner is one of the six new base classes released in the Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide, and it's probably the most unique. All the other Pathfinder classes are either straight conversions of 3.5 classes, or new combinations of existing mechanics (the Oracle is basically a spontaneous Cleric, the Witch is a modified Wizard, etc). The Summoner does something genuinely new: it's a class focusing on a summoned creature, in the vein of Final Fantasy, Fate/stay night, and MMORPG 'pet' classes. While most spellcasters can summon monsters in limited ways, the Summoner gives you a buildable, customisable, unkillable companion from level 1 up.
The Summoner's also probably the most complicated of the new classes, and there have been several requests for a handbook - so here it is. While this handbook will assume that you're using the Pathfinder system, or Pathfinder with 3.5 material, the Summoner class actually works just fine in 3.5, and can be included in a 3.5 campaign with almost no modification.
Strengths and Weaknesses
The strengths and weaknesses of the Summoner:
Strengths
Eidolon - The reason to play the class.
Spellcasting - Although not quite up to the level of a Sorcerer, Summoners are powerful casters, especially when it comes to buffing.
Summon Monster - The backup to your Eidolon.
Weaknesses
Spell slots - While your spell levels keep up surprisingly well, spell slots are a tight resource for you.
Multiclassing - You basically can't.
Summon/Eidolon incompatibility - You can't use your Eidolon and summon abilities at the same time. Discussed further in post 8.
Roles
Here are the roles you can effectively fill within the party, as well as the ones you can't.
Melee Combat (Eidolon or Summons)
Eidolon gets up in the face of enemies. Eidolon eats the face of enemies. If you can’t or don’t want to use your Eidolon, a summoned monster will do the job almost as well.
Buffer
The Summoner’s spell list has pretty much every buff spell you could ever want, and the class has the unique ability to use Personal range buffs on your Eidolon. Your bread-and-butter tactic for most of your career will be to buff up your Eidolon and send it into combat.
Debuffer
Although Summoners only get a minority of the arcane debuff and save-or-X spells, those that they do get are among the best in the game. You should probably devote about one spell per spell level to this.
Battlefield Control
Summoners don’t get many BC spells, but even if it’ll never be your best suit, just having one or two expands your options in a battle.
Utility Caster
After loading up on buffs and debuffs and adding in a few battlefield control spells, you’re going to be running seriously short on spells known. Don’t try to cover niche utility magic - that’s the job of the prepared casters. Still, you can bring wands and scrolls for emergencies, and it’s surprising how many problems can be solved by a well-placed dimension door.
Skills
You’re not the skillmonkey, but Use Magic Device on a Charisma-based class is still very handy.
Healer
You can heal your eidolon from level 1, and once you get a decent UMD score you can use a wand of cure light wounds with a fair chance of success. However, this is very much a backup role.
Ranged Combat
You can shoot a crossbow. Um, that’s about it.
Melee Combat (You)
Yes, your BAB isn’t completely awful. Yes, you have as many HP as a druid or cleric. You’re still not a melee fighter. By all means go into battle to take a few swings and give your eidolon that +2 to hit, but don’t expect to accomplish much.
Races and Abilities
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Races
Races (Core)
Although you can make a decent Summoner with any of the Pathfinder Core Races, some are much better at it than others.
A note on Favoured Class Alternatives: At level 1, you get to pick a favoured class, which will be (unless you’re an idiot) Summoner. This gives you either +1 HP or +1 skill point each level. Gnomes, Halflings, Half-Elves, and Humans, however, have the ability to exchange this for a boost to the Eidolon instead. If you mainly fight with your Eidolon rather than your summons, this is a good choice.
Dwarf - A penalty to your primary casting stat and some armour and weapon abilities you can’t use. Pass.
Favoured Class Alternatives: None.
Elf - The Con penalty hurts, but it’s mostly offset by the Int and Dex boosts, and you can make some use of the Elven Magic feature (though not as much as other arcanists). Overall, though, the benefits just don’t do you enough good.
Favoured Class Alternatives: None.
Gnome - Bonuses to your primary and secondary stats at a cost of a penalty to your main dump stat - a great deal! About the only drawback is the slow speed.
Favoured Class Alternatives: Add +1 HP to the Eidolon.
Half-Elf - Half-Elves make better Summoners than you'd think. The primary racial bonuses are only average, and Skill Focus isn't a great choice for a feat, but the Half-Elf's real selling point is the favoured class alternative found here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-elf). At time of writing, this is the only way in the game to get more evolution points than normal for your level.
Favoured Class Alternatives: Add +1/4 evolution points to the Eidolon.
Half-Orc - For those who assumed Half-Orcs would make bad Charisma-based casters - surprise! They can put their +2 stat bump into Charisma, and Darkvision and Ferocity are very handy abilities to have on a summoner.
Favoured Class Alternatives: None.
Halfling - Having their physical bonus score in Dex rather than Con probably puts halflings just a touch behind gnomes, and an extra HP for the Eidolon is better than an extra skill point. Not much in it, though.
Alternate Racial Traits: The Outrider trait makes Halflings the natural choice if you're going for a mounted summoner build.
Favoured Class Alternatives: Add +1 skill rank to the Eidolon.
Human - If you’ve been playing D&D for any time at all, it should be absolutely no surprise that humans are a great choice. Being human gives you skill points and a feat, two resources that summoners are very short on. The only reason they're not an automatic choice is that there aren't that many good feats to pick.
Favoured Class Alternatives: Add +1 HP or +1 skill rank to the Eidolon.
Half-Elf Vs Human
Half-Elf and Human are probably the strongest core Summoner races unless you're going for a very specific build, so here's a useful comparison between them, showing what they give you over the 20 levels. (Contributed by John John.)
Half elf: +2 perception, immune to sleep, +2 vs enchantment, +3-6 to one skill, +0-5 evolution points for your Eidolon.
Human: +1 feat, +1-20 skill points, +1-20 hit points for you or your Eidolon.
The lesson seems to be that if you want to make it a priority to pick up those extra evolution points, take Half-Elf. Otherwise, Human edges it out.
Races (Non-Core & Third Party)
(Contributed by grarrrg)
More PF approved races, while they are not in the APG, they are on the PFSRD.
Half-Ogre (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/half-ogre), makes a better Summoner than you'd think, and a GREAT Flank-Buddy Summoner at that, +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis. NO Cha penalty.
Ratkin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/ratkin), about the same as the Elf, same stat bonuses, different penalty.
Saurian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/saurian), almost perfect stats, +2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Int, a +2 Natural armor bonus, and Medium sized make them a good choice for a flank-type.
I'd rate the Half-Ogre as "Good" if going flank-type, "Okay" if not.
Saurians are borderline "Exellent", but definately "Good", could use more useful racial traits, but 3rd party, what are you going to do.
Ratkin "Meh".
3rd Party
High Goblin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/high-goblin-jbe) No, just, no. Stat bonuses and penalties in all the wrong places (-2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha), Racial bonuses are nothing special. Rating: Awful.
Oakling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/oakling) Similar stat bonuses as Dwarves, +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha. Racials bonuses and Racial Feats are interesting, but seem more geared toward melee fighting. Rating: Awful, unless building a Flank-Buddy Summoner (which still only reaches "Okay" at best)
Lizardfolk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/lizardfolk) +2 Con, -2 Int are decent stats. Racial bonuses/feats consist of Swimming, and Natural Attacks. In general rate as Meh, no real bonus/penalty to being a Summoner. Their value greatly improves in an Aquatic campaign however.
Races (Psionic)
(Contributed by grarrrg)
Dromites are Xeph are the 'winners', a couple situationally useful races, and a lot of stinkers.
Note: All psionic races receive Wild Talent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/wild-talent) as a bonus feat, which gives them 2 Power Points. While this does nothing on its own, it does open up Psionic feats and such as options.
Blue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/blues-psionics-unleashed) +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Str, can spend Points instead of eating. Rating: Meh. Nothing good, nothing bad.
Dromite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/dromite) Same stats/size as Halfling, gets +1 nat. armor, and 5 energy resistance, and the Scent ability. Rating: Okay/Good, about the same as Halfling.
Duergar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/duergar) Virtually the same as a Dwarf. Rating: Awful.
Elan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/elan) +2 any stat, can spend Points for temp increase in Saves, reduced damage from an attack, or to skip eating. Rating: Okay, you could do plenty worse, but nothing that really helps a Summoner.
Half-Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/half-giant) +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Dex, racials are so-so, notably has Powerful Build which is much more useful for melee-types. Rating: Meh, nothing good, nothing bad.
Maenad (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/maenad) +2 any stat, racials are mainly geared towards Rage. Rating: Meh, nothing good, nothing bad.
Ophiduan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/ophiduan) +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, +1 nat armor. The rest of the racials aren't anything special. Rating: Awful.
Xeph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/xeph) Same stats as Halfling, but medium size. +1 to (most) saving throws, and Burst of Speed. Rating: Good/Okay
Races (Monstrous)
(Contributed by grarrrg, material from the following link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monsters-as-pcs))
Aasimar: +2 Wis, +2 Cha, and Acid/Cold/Elec Resist 5. Rating: Good
Changeling: +2 Wis, +2 Cha, -2 Con, +1 nat armor, and claw attacks. Rating: Okay.
Dhampir: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con, has reversed reaction to Channeled Energy, and undead related racials. Rating: Okay.
Drow: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con, some decent racials, and Light Blindness. Rating: Okay
Drow Noble: Same as Drow with the following changes; +4 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, –2 Con, +5 better Spell Resistance, and have access to a variety of low level spells AT-WILL.
Rating: Excellent, but only because it is overpowered compared to all the other race choices (net +8 to stats!?). Most DM's should not allow this 'as-is'.
Duergar: +2 Con, +2 Wis, -4 Cha, decent racials. Rating: Awful, -4 Cha??
Fetchling: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, Cold/Electric Resistance 5, improved miss chance in low light. Rating: Good/borderline Excellent, stat adjusts are almost perfect.
Gillman: +2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, racials give water breathing, water dependence, and ENSLAVED. Rating: Despite having PERFECT stats, Meh/Awful due to the water dependence. In an aquatic campaign, they easily shoot up to Excellent.
Goblin: +4 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Cha, racials are meh. Rating: Awful.
Grippli: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str, Climb speed and swamp familiarity. Rating: Meh, nothing good/bad for a Summoner.
Hobgoblin: +2 Dex, +2 Con, almost non-existant racials. Rating: Meh.
Ifrit: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, Fire Resist 5, and pointless Elemental Affinity. Rating: Good, near perfect stats, and the most useful Resistance.
Kobold: +2 Dex, -4 Str, -2 Con, racials are meh. Rating: Meh, despite having pathetic stats and racials, there is nothing detrimental to a Summoner. (If 3.5 shenanagins are allowed, this probably becomes the best choice EVAR!!1!)
Merfolk: +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +2 nat armor, can breathe in water, and have a swim speed of 50ft!, but a land speed of only 5ft. (yes, a 5 foot step is the same as a Move Action). Rating: Okay/Meh on land, Excellent (or better) if Mounted or in an Aquatic campaign.
Orc: +4 Str, -2 all mentals. Rating: Awful.
Oread: +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, Acid Resist 5, pointless Elemental Affinity. Rating: Awful.
Strix: +2 Dex, -2 Cha, Fly speed 60ft. (avg) Rating: Between Meh, and Good, depending on how much you value Flying (it IS on the Summoner class list).
Svirfneblin: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str, -4 Cha, +2 Dodge bonus to AC, Spell Resistance. Rating: Awful (-4 Cha?)
Sylph: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, Electricity Resist 5, pointless Elemental Affinity (2 more and we can summon Captain Pointless!). Rating: Meh.
Tengu: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Con, various minor racials. Rating: Meh.
Tiefling: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, Cold/Elec/Fire Resist 5, pointless Fiendish Sorcery. Rating: Okay/Meh, despite the Cha penalty, the Resists are VERY nice.
Undine: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str, Cold Resist 5, pointless Elemental Affinity (by your powers combined, I am Captain Pointless!) Rating: Meh.
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Abilities
An interesting thing about Summoners is that they’re not very stat-dependent. Since neither your Eidolon nor your summons are affected by your ability scores, you don’t need a high mental stat as badly as most casters. It’s actually possible to build an effective summoner on a 0 point buy. As such, you can probably ignore most of the recommendations below as long as your Charisma doesn’t get too low. All scores are before racial modifiers.
Strength
Your primary dump stat. You’ll use it for carrying capacity and the odd melee attack at low levels, and that’s about it.
Recommended score: 7-10.
Dexterity
Armour class, initiative, Reflex save, and the odd ranged attack. Your third most important stat.
Recommended score: 12-14.
Constitution
Hit points - enough said. Your second most important stat.
Recommended score: 12-14.
Intelligence
While none of your class features are based off Intelligence, it’s the primary stat for Spellcraft and several other skills, and you have a decent skill list to take advantage of. Since your base skill allowance is only 2 points, every bit of Intelligence bonus helps.
Recommended score: 10-12.
Wisdom
Sure, a high Will save is nice, but unfortunately this stat gives you just about nothing else.
Recommended score: 8-10.
Charisma
Your primary ability, keying to your casting as well as your uses per day of summon monster and many of your skills. You can manage with a low Charisma, but if you want to make good use of debuffs and summons, you’ll want it as high as you can get.
Recommended score: 15-17.
Alternate Builds
The above recommendations for Roles and Abilities assume a 'traditional' summoner, relying on your summoned creatures and your spells. However, since summoners aren't heavily dependent on any one ability score, you can build them in quite different ways and still be effective. Here are some alternate build suggestions contributed by posters:
Flank Buddy Summoner (by grarrrg)
Instead of using Strength as your dumpstat, boost it up and get a good weapon to turn yourself into a secondary melee character, then go into combat alongside your Eidolon. 'Smashy' races like Half-Ogre and Half-Orc are best for this. The major weakness of this tactic is that if the enemy KOs you, your Eidolon vanishes as well. Still, it can do a lot to increase your damage output at low levels, and once you get to higher levels you can take the Mount evolution, pick up Mounted Combat, and ride into battle on your Eidolon's back.
Constitution Summoner (by John John)
The idea here is to boost your HP as high as possible. Put your highest stat into Constitution (Charisma second-highest) then take Toughness and use items and stat bumps to increase your Constitution even further. By level 10 you can have as much as 50 HP more than a standard Summoner, making you much harder to knock below 0 HP (which in turn prevents your Eidolon from being dismissed). In exchange you take a slight hit to your spellcasting capability.
Stealth Summoner (by james maissen)
Here the Summoner takes a support role. Start with the Halfling race, and take the Swift as Shadows alternate racial trait. Max Stealth (the Highlander trait from page 332 of the APG makes it as a class skill), take Skill Focus (Stealth) and Hellcat Stealth and take Invisibility early, and you have a summoner that can't be found easily. Stay hidden and moving, and keep dropping summoned monsters on your enemies.
Skills and Feats
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Skills
General Points
Summoners get very few skill points per level. You'll probably only be able to afford three maxed-out skills, four at the most. Pick a few skills to specialise in and stick with them, while putting 1 rank into others to make the most of the +3 Trained bonus. In most cases you'll be best off maxing out Spellcraft and UMD.
A good way to make your limited skill points go further is to rely on your Eidolon. Eidolons get to pick several class skills to add to their list, so if your Eidolon is going to be maxing, say, Sense Motive, there's not much point in you doing the same. Save your skill points for stuff like Spellcraft where only you can effectively make use of it.
Class Skills
Craft - Fun but not very effective. Your Int won't be high enough to make effective use of this the way a wizard can.
Fly - You won't want any points in this to begin with, but it gets important at higher levels. You should start putting ranks in it as you approach level 10, where you get access to Overland Flight and the Aspect class feature.
Handle Animal - Keys off Charisma. Can be handy for persuading summoned animals to do things.
Knowledge - Another 'put one rank into it then forget about it' skill. Given the kind of things you're likely to deal with, Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (planes) are good picks.
Linguistics - this is worth taking. While you can communicate with your Eidolon easily, many of the creatures on the summon monster list only understand specific, obscure languages like Terran. Plan ahead and make sure you can speak the summoned monster's language BEFORE you need to tell it something. :smalltongue:
Profession - Bleh.
Ride - If you're going for a Mount eidolon build (see post 6), this is essential. If not, it's decidedly meh.
Spellcraft - Identifies spells, identifies items, and also the key skill for item creation. Max this.
Use Magic Device - UMD on a Charisma-based character? DO WANT! Max it.
Cross-Class Skills
Acrobatics - Sure, it's useful, but you don't really want to get into the kind of situations where you need it.
Bluff - You've got the Charisma for it, and it comes up often enough to be worthwhile. Can be made into a class skill with the Fast-Talker trait.
Diplomacy - Probably the most useful social skill, and good for convincing your summons to do things. Can be made into a class skill with the Ease of Faith or World Traveller traits.
Perception - Probably the single most-rolled skill in the game, and worth taking for that reason alone. Your Eidolon is probably a better detector than you, though.
Stealth - Useful if you're planning to try the 'invisible summoner' trick. Better for Gnomes and Halflings, obviously.
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Feats
These ratings apply to the summoner. Eidolon feats are covered in post 6. Only feats that a summoner can qualify for will be included, since there's obviously not much point rating feats like Extra Ki and Command Undead.
Core Feats (General)
Acrobatic - No.
Acrobatic Steps - If you want to bypass difficult terrain, get flight magic.
Alertness - Just a notch above 'bad' since Perception's the most commonly rolled skill in the game. Still not particularly good.
Animal Affinity - No.
Armour Proficiency, Medium - Lose your ability to cast spells in exchange for 1 AC!
Athletic - No.
Augment Summoning - You want this. Even if it doesn't do anything to boost your Eidolon, it makes a big difference to the power of your summons. Note that it's not completely clear from the rules whether it works on (Sp) abilities, but given that there are literally NO other feats that boost your summons, only a really harsh DM would bar you from applying it.
Combat Casting - It's not that it's BAD or anything, it's just that you should usually have your eidolon in between you and the bad guys. If you do get caught in melee, there's a good chance that your response will not be to cast a spell.
Deceitful - No.
Deft Hands - Still no.
Diehard - Not worth two feats.
Endurance - Not worth one feat.
Eschew Materials - Just carry an extra spell component pouch.
Fleet - Higher speed is nice, but it's not worth a feat slot.
Great Fortitude tree - Take it if you really can't think of anything more interesting to pick.
Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) - Probably overkill, but not a bad choice.
Improved Counterspell - You can get some use out of it, but you don't have the spell slots to keep up a spell duel.
Iron Will tree - Dull, but not terrible.
Leadership - Excellent for all classes, but doubly so for you with your high Charisma score. Many DMs ban it by default, so check to make sure your DM's okay with you controlling three characters plus an army of mooks.
Lightning Reflexes tree - Yeah, it's okay, no, it's not that interesting.
Magical Aptitude - If you're going to take one of the +2/+2 skill feats, it should probably be this one.
Martial Weapon Proficiency - Good for increasing damage output on a Flank Buddy summoner, or for taking a Lance to use as a Mounted summoner.
Nimble Moves - The ability to take a 5-foot step in difficult terrain actually makes this not a bad choice. Some DMs hardly ever use difficult terrain, but if yours does this is worth considering. Becomes obsolete once you have flight, though.
Persuasive - Pass.
Run - Pass, unless outrunning the other PCs is your main survival tactic.
Self-Sufficient - Moving on.
Shield Proficiency - Bleh.
Skill Focus - Not actually as bad as you might think, due to the power of the Use Magic Device skill. Skill Focus (UMD) can help a fair bit at low levels.
Spell Focus (Conjuration) - You want it as a pre-req for Augment Summoning, and it's by no means useless on its own, either. There are several excellent save-or-X Conjuration spells on the Summoner list.
Spell Focus (Anything Else) - Don't bother unless you've REALLY specialised in another school.
Spell Penetration - Many of your best debuffs are SR: No. Still, if you've picked a few spells like Slow and Fire Shield, this isn't a terrible choice.
Stealthy - /ignore
Toughness - More HP is a good thing. Translates into more HP for your Eidolon if necessary. Not a bad choice, although as you level up the extra HP becomes much less noticable.
Core Feats (Combat)
Agile Maneuvers - Pass.
Arcane Armour Training/Mastery - You can cast in light armour already.
Arcane Strike - If you're playing a whacky summoner, this is an okay choice, but +1 or +2 damage isn't much for a swift action.
Blind-Fight - Better for your eidolon than for you.
Catch Off-Guard - Ew, NO.
Combat Expertise tree - You don't have enough feats or BAB.
Combat Reflexes - Are you a reach lockdown build? Didn't think so. Earmark this one for your eidolon, though.
Critical Feats (Blinding Critical, Critical Focus, etc) - Forget it.
Deadly Aim - It's likely that at low levels, you'll spend a fair bit of time shooting a crossbow. This is a fairly effective way to boost your damage with it.
Defensive Combat Training - Pass, unless you REALLY need that extra couple points of CMD.
Dodge tree - You're not the tank.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency - If anyone can think of a good use for this in a Summoner build, tell me.
Improved Initiative - You know the drill, going first is good.
Improved Unarmed Strike tree - Do not want.
Mounted Combat tree (Mounted Archery, Ride-By Attack, Trample, etc) - An eidolon can make for a very effective mount, and this is worth considering for a Small-sized summoner. The Mount eidolon build is discussed in post 6.
Point Blank Shot tree (Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, etc) - If you're going the archery route, you'll want this. Not a terrible choice.
Power Attack tree - Unless you're a Half-Ogre, this is for your Eidolon, not you.
Quick Draw - You don't really need it.
Rapid Reload - Pass.
Throw Anything - Uh . . .
Two-Weapon Fighting tree - Okay, we're starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel here.
Weapon Finesse - No.
Weapon Focus - Still no.
Wind Stance tree - There are better ways to gain miss chance.
You're probably noticing that there's an awful lot of red and purple showing up in this section. The sad fact is that there are very few good feats for summoners. Consider asking your DM to allow 3.5 material if you're going to be playing past level 5 or so.
Core Feats (Metamagic)
The general rule for metamagicing spells as a Summoner is: don't. Sorcerers and Wizards have enough spare spell slots to spend a few on metamagiced spells; you don't. Your spell slots are a very limited resource and you can't afford to expend them unless you absolutely have to.
This doesn't mean you shouldn't use metamagic: you should. It's just that you should get it via metamagic rod. A lesser rod of Extend Spell only costs 3,000 gp, and should be one of your first purchases once you have some cash to throw around.
By far the most useful metamagic feat to get in rod form is Extend Spell. Still Spell and Silent Spell are also useful for emergencies. Quicken Spell is excellent, but very expensive for what it does.
Core Feats (Item Creation)
The first thing to do when picking an item creation feat is to check the activation method of the item you want. If it's spell trigger or spell completion, creating the item requires you to be able to cast that exact spell - no substitutes. If it's use-activated or command word, however, you should be able to create the item at the cost of a moderate bump to the Spellcraft creation DC check. For this reason, spell trigger creation feats like wands and staves are of limited use to summoners.
The value of item creation feats also goes down depending how many other people in the party have them. If the party Wizard is happy to make items for you at cost, there's not much point taking any creation feat unless it's one he's missing.
Brew Potion - Potions are use-activated (which is good) but cost twice as much as scrolls (which is bad). Still, creating items which your Eidolon can use itself has its advantages.
Craft Magic Arms and Armour - Your Eidolon probably can't benefit from this, but you and the rest of your party can. If your Eidolon wields a weapon, this is a much better pick.
Craft Rod - Metamagic rods are excellent, but the main problem with this feat is that the good rods require a very high Spellcraft check to create. If your Spellcraft is high enough, though, this is a very good choice.
Craft Staff - Not worth it, unless there's some high-level spell you really want to spam.
Craft Wand - You're probably better off just buying wands with spells you don't have already.
Craft Wondrous Item - Now this is more like it. Lots of excellent items here at very manageable craft DCs. A strong contender for your 3rd or 5th level feat.
Forge Ring - You only have two ring slots, but there are some very powerful rings out there. Worth considering.
Scribe Scroll - It'll save you a bit of gold, but Craft Wondrous Item will probably save you more. Still, every little helps.
Advanced Player's Guide Feats (General)
From here on, the only feats included will be those rated black and above.
Additional Traits - Traits are handy, and getting two more can be worth a feat if you pick the good ones (extra initiative, +1 to saves, making something a class skill, etc).
Expanded Arcana - this is a good one. It gives you an extra spell known, two if you pick ones below your maximum level. Very handy for the mid-levels where you have more good spells than you have spells known slots.
Improved Share Spells - This feat has high prerequisites and heavy restrictions, but the ability to share a buff is still valuable.
Summoner's Call - The only summoner-specific feat in the APG is, sadly, a bit mediocre. The 10-minute duration means that if you want to keep this on you'll have to spend 1 minute out of every 11 throughout the day resummoning your eidolon. It's not even that big a bonus, either.
Trick Riding - If you're going the Mounted Combat route, this is worth considering.
Advanced Player's Guide Feats (Metamagic)
Lots of good metamagic feats to take as rods here. Reach Spell is particularly good, as it allows you to buff your eidolon at a distance. Ectoplasmic Spell, Persistent Spell, and Selective Spell are also well worth the gold. A lesser rod of Dazing combos great with Wall of Fire (which only Summoners can use a lesser rod on).
Class Features and Multiclassing
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Class Features - Primary
Eidolon - One of the two main strengths of the class.
Spellcasting - The other. You're a full caster, even if you don't have the endurance of a Wizard or Sorcerer.
Summon Monster - In practice, you'll usually use this as a backup to your Eidolon, either because your Eidolon's either been killed or incapacitated for the day, or when you don't have time to summon it. It says something about how good the Eidolon is that a standard-action Summon Monster is usually the less powerful choice.
Class Features - Secondary
Life Link - The ability to sacrifice HP to keep the Eidolon alive is useful, and the ability to bypass the Protection from X spells gives your Eidolon a leg up over other summons. The distance restriction shouldn't usually be a problem - you'll rarely fight at a distance of over 100 feet, and if you do, you can simply follow your Eidolon and keep it in range. Just don't forget about it!
Bond Senses - A rather odd and extremely short-duration ability. I can't think of much use for it, but I guess there has to be something.
Shield Ally - Free bonuses are always nice, but this is hampered slightly by the fact that if your Eidolon's in melee, you probably don't want to be next to it.
Maker’s Call - Free teleports are nice, even if you don't get many of them. There are some neat tricks you can do with this.
Transposition - Expand your options with Maker's Call. Not bad.
Aspect - The ability to add an evolution to your character opens up a lot of possibilities (the Wings choice is especially good) but each evolution point you siphon off makes your Eidolon that much weaker. Think about this one carefully.
Greater Shield Ally - Much better than Shield Ally, now your Eidolon can buff the rest of the melee fighters in the party as long as they stay near it.
Life Bond - Now your Life Link works both ways! Great ability, preventing enemies from taking out your Eidolon by attacking you.
Merge Forms - This is a weird one. You get to merge with your Eidolon and effectively disappear. Very short duration, though. I guess it could work as an escape ability. If anyone can think of a good use for this, tell me.
Greater Aspect - Much better than Aspect, now you get your Eidolon's evolution points at a two-to-one discount.
Twin Eidolon - "Aah! There's two of them!" will probably be your DM's response to this. The fact that it's a 20th-level ability means you'll probably never get to use this, but it's an awesome capstone.
Multiclassing
As a summoner, you don't multiclass. Ever. No, not even then. All of your Eidolon's abilities, not to mention your Summon Monster ability, key off your class level, not your character level. This means that every level in another class is a level of lost advancement for two out of your three primary class features. There is literally nothing you can get from multiclassing that's worth that.
Eidolons
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Eidolon Basics
How Natural Attacks Work
The rules for natural attacks can be found here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks). Here's a condensed version.
Primary natural attacks use the eidolon's full Base Attack Bonus and add the eidolon's full Strength bonus to damage.
Secondary natural attacks are made at a -5 penalty to hit and add only half the eidolon's Strength bonus to damage.
If the eidolon has only one natural attack, this is treated as a primary natural attack that adds 1 and 1/2 the eidolon's Strength bonus to damage.
If an eidolon wields a weapon, it can still make its natural attacks, but they are all counted as secondary attacks.
Weapon attacks do benefit from iterative attacks; ie the Eidolon gets an extra attack for every 5 points of BAB above +1. Natural attacks do not benefit from iterative attacks; you get one attack per natural weapon and that's it.
An In-Depth Look at Eidolon Natural Attacks (Contributed by grarrrg, 11/11)
All damage numbers listed assume medium size, without the Improved Damage evolution. Assuming each 'limb' can only gain 1 type of attack (that is, you cannot have 1 pair of Arms with both Claws and Pincers).
Most attacks require a "base" evolution (Head/Limbs/etc...), an an "attack" evolution (Bite/Claws/etc...).
We will also be ignoring Manufactured weapon options.
Type: Bite
Cost: 3 (1 Bite, 2 Head)
# Attacks: 1 Primary
Damage: 1d6
Note: Gore does same damage, but costs 2 points
Type: Claws
Cost: 3 (1 Claws, 2 Limbs)
# Attacks: 2 Primary
Damage: 1d4ea.
Note: Hooves do the same damage, but are Secondary attacks.
Type: Pincers
Cost: 3 (1 Pincers, 2 Limbs)
# Attacks: 2 Secondary
Damage: 1d6ea.
Type: Slam
Cost: 3 (1 Slam, 2 Limbs)
# Attacks: 1 Primary
Damage: 1d8
Type: Sting
Cost: 2 (1 Sting, 1 Tail)
# Attacks: 1 Primary
Damage: 1d4
Type: Slap
Cost: 2 (1 Slap, 1 Tail
# Attacks: 1 Secondary
Damage: 1d6
Type: Tentacle
Cost: 1
# Attacks: 1 Secondary
Damage: 1d4
Type: Wing Buffet
Cost: 3 (1 Wing Buffet, 2 Flight)
# Attacks: 2 Secondary
Damage: 1d4 each
Type: Rake
Cost: 4 (2 Rake, 2 Legs)
# Attacks: 2 Primary (but only counts as 1 for Max Attack cap)
Damage: 1d4 each
Note: Only useable on a successful Grapple.
Type: Breath Weapon
Cost: 6 (4 Breath Weaon, 2 Head)
# Attacks: 1
Damage: 1d6 per HD
Note: Only useable 1/day. Can spend up to 2 more Evo-Points to gain up to 2/day more uses.
Results:
They actually did a decent job balancing out the attacks, with few "strictly better" options .There are various Evolutions that apply only to certain types of attacks (Poison/Rake/etc...) that can greatly vary the damage/usefullness of any given attack.
Slam is better than Bite (damage).
Claws/Pincers are better than Sting/Tail Slap (6 evo points gets 4 Claw attacks, but only 3 Stings).
If you are working against the Max Attack cap, then Slams are the best option.
Tentacles are the most efficient way to get more attacks, 1-point > 1-attack. They are a poor attack, but if you are a long way from the Max Attack cap they are easy to throw on (i.e. Biped with a Sword).
Wing Buffet is the least efficient, and can only be taken once (but the Flight evolution is pretty useful on its own).
Eidolon Base Forms
Biped: The Biped has the highest base Strength, and gets 5 extra feet of Reach once enlarged beyond Medium-size. In exchange it has the lowest Dexterity and no unique evolutions. Weak Reflex save.
Mount Ability: No.
Unique Evolutions: None.
Quadruped: The Quadruped has the highest base speed and the excellent Pounce ability. It has no significant weaknesses apart from its weak Will save.
Mount Ability: Yes.
Unique Evolutions: Pounce, Rake.
Serpentine: The Serpentine form has the lowest base speed and the lowest Strength. It has the highest Dexterity, but it's a notch below the other two in terms of power unless you want to make a constrictor.
Mount Ability: Yes.
Unique Evolutions: Constrict.
Quick rule of thumb: if you want Pounce, pick Quadruped, if you want Constrict, pick Serpentine; and if you just want as high a Strength as possible pick Biped.
Fang Vs Blade - Whether to Wield a Weapon
By default the Eidolon is designed as a natural attacker. The Summoner class has 20 evolutions that either add or improve natural attacks, and exactly 1 evolution letting it wield a weapon (and that one isn't even very good); it also has Greater Magic Fang rather than Greater Magic Weapon on its spell list. However, D&D was basically designed on the assumption that the PCs would be using manufactured weapons, and so there's much more material out there for manufactured weapons than natural ones. Here are some of the advantages wielded weapons give:
Manufactured weapons give iterative attacks, natural weapons don't.
The Eidolon has a cap on how many natural attacks it's allowed to have, but no cap on weapon attacks.
You can get weapons in special materials to help getting through damage reduction. There's no way to get natural weapons to break DR/Adamantine or Cold Iron.
Manufactured weapons are much cheaper to enchant. The only Pathfinder item that grants an enhancement bonus to natural attacks is the Amulet of Mighty Fists, which is 2.5 times as expensive as an equivalent weapon.
Manufactured weapons typically have a higher base damage than natural weapons (a greatsword does 2d6, a bite 1d6) and can have abilities like Reach, Disarm, and Trip.
A manufactured weapon wielded in two hands adds 1.5 your Strength modifier to damage over multiple attacks.
For these reasons, it's worth at least considering whether you want to go the weapon route for your Eidolon. Even if you don't want to make it a focus, it can be worth taking a weapon proficiency so you can carry some Silver and Cold Iron weapons around just in case.
Eidolon Feats
Here's a very brief overview of good feats to take for your Eidolon. Only the standouts will be included (rated black and above).
Ability Focus: Take this if you go for the Poison evolution.
Blind-Fight tree: Combos well with Scent, Tremorsense, or Blindsense.
Combat Reflexes: Eidolons have several ways of getting Reach, and this lets you take maximum advantage of it.
Dazing Assault: Brutal if it works, but at a high cost.
Double Slice: For Kali builds.
Eldritch Claws: Make your natural weapons silver. Good if your campaign includes a lot of lycanthropes or devils.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: An alternative to Martial Weapon Proficiency for the spiked chain fans.
Improved Critical: Not bad for an attack you're going to use a lot. Requires BAB +8, though.
Improved Natural Attack: Requires +4 BAB, but this is an almost automatic pick for most Eidolons.
Improved Initiative: Never a bad choice.
Lunge: Reach is good, and this gives you yet another way to boost it. Requires BAB +6.
Martial Weapon Proficiency: An automatic 1st-level choice for slugger builds, and a useful backup on others, too. Carrying a greatsword in a few different materials can be a lifesaver if you run into something with DR.
Multiweapon Fighting: The signature feat of the Kali build.
Power Attack: A great way to boost damage at low levels. You'll want this on almost every Eidolon build.
Step Up: Chase down casters or archers who try to step away.
Toughness: More HP is never a bad thing, but the reduced HD of the Eidolon makes this less useful than it could have been.
Weapon Focus: A +1 to hit is always useful, if not that exciting.
The Three Laws of Evolution
The Packages below go into more detail, but these are the general rules to follow when you're building your Eidolon.
1. Primary Good, Secondary Bad: Always take primary natural attacks over secondary ones, unless you're wielding a weapon.
2. Reach is King: Biped, Enlarge, Lunge, reach weapon, Reach evolution - get as many as you can afford to make your reach as high as you possibly can.
3. Go Large: The Large evolution gives you a great Strength boost as well as other benefits. Take it at the first opportunity.
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Eidolon Packages
There are countless combinations of evolutions and feats for an Eidolon. Instead of rating each evolution individually, this guide will give you ideas for Eidolon 'packages'; sets of suggested evolutions and feats that work particularly well together. As you level up, pick extra ones from the list, or branch out into a different package. In all cases, take the Large evolution as soon as possible.
These packages cover offensive power only: for defense and utility, open the 'Other Evolutions' spoiler at the end of this post.
Pouncer (Cat Form)
Base Form: Quadruped
Evolutions: Claws, Pounce, Rake, Rend, Energy Attacks, Limbs (arms) & extra Claws, Ability Increase (Strength), Improved Damage (Claws)
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack, Lunge
This build revolves around getting lots of natural attacks, stacking extra damage onto them (from energy attacks, Power Attack, and a high Strength), then unloading them all on an enemy with Pounce. Very straightforward and very high first-round damage potential. Dependent on getting off that charge, so make sure you identify the kinds of things that can prevent charges and neutralise them (e.g. give the Eidolon flight so it can charge over difficult terrain, and position yourself in the marching order so that party members won't obstruct you). Your main weakness will be Damage Reduction: since you depend upon landing lots of hits even a small amount of DR will cripple your damage output.
Ripper (Bear Form)
Base Form: Biped
Evolutions: Bite, Reach (Bite), Reach (Claws), Improved Damage (Bite), Improved Damage (Claws), Ability Increase (Strength), and as many other natural attacks as you have the points for.
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack, Lunge
Very similar to the Pouncer, this build focuses around maximising Strength and Reach. It should do more damage than the Pouncer on a full attack due to its higher starting Strength score, but it'll have more trouble getting full attacks due to lack of Pounce. Again, Damage Reduction is a major problem.
Chomper (Dog Form)
Base Form: Quadruped or Biped
Evolutions: Bite, Improved Bite, Improved Damage (Bite), Reach (Bite), Ability Increase (Strength), Trip (Bite), Poison (Bite)
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved Natural Attack, Combat Reflexes/Lunge, Ability Focus (Poison)
This build goes a slightly different route: instead of lots of medium-strength attacks, you try to land one BIG attack, then use Combat Reflexes and Reach to make sure you get as many shots with it as possible. Stack as many conditions (such as Trip and Poison) onto the single hit as possible. Much lower damage potential than the first two forms, but unlike them you're not dependent on full attacks, meaning you don't have to stand toe-to-toe with the monsters and can move around.
Constrictor (Snake Form)
Base Form: Serpentine
Evolutions: Grab, Constrict, Ability Increase (Strength), Improved Damage
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike -> Improved Grapple, Weapon Focus
Grab enemies and crush them. Grappling paralyses an enemy quite effectively, but the big weakness of this strategy is that the Grab evolution only works on enemies smaller than your Eidolon, meaning you'll need to make heavy use of Enlarge effects to make it work. With a starting Strength of only 12, you'll also have trouble making the combat maneuver checks - Pincers will help, but they're secondary attacks. This build is a combat-ender when it works, but it'll probably fail more often than it succeeds.
Slugger (Weapon-Wielder)
Base Form: Quadruped or Biped
Evolutions: Reach (Weapon), Ability Increase (Strength), Limbs (Arms, if Quadruped), Pounce (if Quadruped)
Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency or Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
Get your Eidolon a big hefty two-handed weapon and go to town. (Note: do NOT get the Weapon Training evolution. MWP or EWP is far more efficient.) Go for Biped to maximise Strength and Reach, or Quadruped for the 'centaur' build like the ones in the Narnia films. This build requires very few evolution points, so unlike the others you'll be able to afford defensive and utility evolutions.
Mount (Mounted Combat Form)
Base Form: Quadruped
Evolutions: Mount, otherwise as Pouncer
Feats: As Pouncer
Using your Eidolon as a mount has advantages: you never have to worry about getting out of range of Life Link, you'll always be in range of its Shield Ally, and you can protect your Eidolon with Mounted Combat. Make your Strength score higher than most Summoners and take Martial Weapon Proficiency (Lance) for x2 damage on a charge. The combination of a pouncing charge from your Eidolon and a lance hit from you is utterly lethal and will often end fights in a single round, but the big weakness of this tactic is that it exposes you to attack. Pick up Improved Share Spells once you get to higher levels to make better use of your buffs.
Kali (AKA 'Baby Hecatoncheires')
Base Form: Quadruped or Biped
Evolutions: Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Arms), Ability Increase (Strength)
Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency (light weapon), Multiweapon Fighting, Double Slice
A lot of Eidolon builds end up looking pretty ridiculous, but this one takes the cake. Add as many pairs of arms as you have the points for, then take Martial Weapon Proficiency (Shortsword) or similar and watch your Eidolon ginsu everything in its way. You can go for a Biped for a Kali lookalike, or take Quadruped with Pounce to make some kind of demented centipede. You'll be rolling a crazy number of attacks, but any amount of DR will kill you and equipping your Eidolon with that many good quality weapons will drive you bankrupt. Still, it looks scary as hell.
Combo Builds
There's absolutely nothing stopping you from combining elements from two or more of the above packages, and in fact in some cases it's essential (Mount with Pounce, Constrictor with anything, Slugger with anything). Good evolutions to dip are Bite-Reach-Trip and Pounce-Rake-Rend, and Martial Weapon Proficiency is always useful.
Other Evolutions
In practice, unless you're playing a Slugger build, you'll never have enough evolution points for all the attacks you want, meaning you'll probably end up skimping on defensive and utility evolutions. Still, if you have a few points spare, it's worth picking some up.
1-Point Evolutions
Climb: The cheapest way of getting off the ground. Good for Mounted builds, as the Eidolon can bring you along with it.
Gills: Very situational. Probably only worth it for an aquatic campaign.
Improved Natural Armour: +2 AC for 1 evolution point is a good deal. Stack it with Mage Armour, obviously. Confusingly written - see the FAQ.
Magic Attacks: Overcoming DR/Magic is OK, but being able to overcome DR/Alignment at level 10 is the real selling point.
Resistance: If you can predict what energy types you'll be facing one level ahead of time, this is good, but usually you can't.
Scent: The low end of the detection tree, this is still pretty good.
Skilled: Very build-dependent, but +8 is a big bonus. Skilled (Perception) will make your Eidolon the radar unit of the party, and you can even make your Eidolon into a passable rogue by taking this for Stealth and Disable Device.
Swim: again, this is for aquatic campaigns.
2-Point Evolutions
Flight: Flight is good, and you want it. The only question is whether you want to spend the points on this, or just use Overland Flight instead.
Immunity: Excellent when it applies, and worth considering at higher levels where energy attacks start to get frequent and dangerous. Still, it might be better to just use Lesser Evolution Surge.
Tremorsense: The next up on the detection tree, this lets you automatically pinpoint enemies on the ground.
3-Point Evolutions
Blindsense: If you want a senses evolution, trade up to this from Tremorsense once flying enemies become common.
Burrow: In most cases flight is better.
Damage Reduction: DR is never a bad thing to have, but 3-5 points is a lot to pay. Boosting AC is probably more efficient.
Frightful Presence: Doesn't work on enemies with more HD than the Eidolon, which dangerous enemies will almost always have.
Web: Too expensive, and too easy for enemies to get loose.
4-Point Evolutions
Blindsight: Would be good if it didn't require Blindsense. 7 evolution points is too much.
Breath Weapon: 1/day? Pass.
Fast Healing: This is good, very good, but Evolution Surge is probably a better way of getting it.
Large: You want this.
Spell Resistance: It's not bad, but it carries a major drawback: it stops the rest of the party's spells as well unless your Eidolon takes a standard action to lower it. Maybe worth considering at a high level, but again I'd prefer to use Evolution Surge.
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Sample Builds
Here are some low-level (and not-so-low-level) Eidolon builds to get you started. Submissions welcome.
Pouncer (1st-Level)
Form: Quadruped
Evolutions (extra): Claws (1), Pounce (1), Improved Natural Armour (1)
Feats: Power Attack
AC: 16
Attack Routine (with Power Attack): Bite +2 (1d6+4) and 2 claws +2 (1d4+4)
Buffs to Use: Mage Armour, Shield
The basic cat-build, this trades offense for defence. If you can get it fully buffed (note: use Mage Armour when going into dangerous areas, and carry scrolls of Shield) it'll have an AC of 24, meaning most 1st-level opponents will need a natural 20 to hit.
Slugger (1st-Level)
Form: Biped
Evolutions (extra): Reach (weapon, 1), Ability Increase (Strength, 2)
Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword)
AC: 13 (11 when enlarged)
Attack: Greatsword +5 (2d6+6)
Buffs to Use: Mage Armour, Enlarge Person
The opposite extreme from the Pouncer, this maximises the hitting power of a standard attack. When Enlarged this boasts a greatsword strike dealing an impressive 3d6+7 damage out to a 15-foot reach. Low AC, though, so you'll need to use its reach to take full advantage of AoOs.
Ripper (1st-Level)
Form: Biped
Evolutions (extra): Bite (1), Ability Increase (Strength, 2)
Feats: Power Attack
AC: 13
Attack Routine (with Power Attack): Bite +4 (1d6+6) and 2 claws +4 (1d4+4)
Buffs to Use: Mage Armour, Enlarge Person
If you just want to maximise damage on a full attack, this is the Eidolon to use. A glass cannon build - one full attack will almost certainly kill an enemy, but without any source of Pounce or free movement, getting that full attack might be difficult.
"Killer Centaur" (10th-Level)
This is an example of what a really nasty higher-level Eidolon can look like. It's a hybrid of the Pouncer and Slugger packages, designed as an alpha-strike build capable of killing a good fraction of level-appropriate enemies in one round.
The stats below assume the following all-day buffs are active: Mage Armour, Greater Magic Fang, Overland Flight (all last 10 hours at CL 10). The Eidolon carries two magic items: a +1 greatsword and a belt of strength +2. (In practice it would have far more items and probably some extra buffs like Heroism.)
Form: Quadruped
HP: 76 (8d10+32)
AC: 28 (+3 Dex +12 NA +4 armour -1 size)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft, fly 40 ft.
Ability Scores: Str 28 (30) Dex 16 Con 17 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
Saves: Fort +9 Ref +9 Will +2/+6
Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword (1st), Toughness (3rd), Improved Natural Attack: Claw (5th), Lunge (7th), Multiattack (Bonus)
Evolutions (base): Bite, Limbs (Legs), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (extra, 14-point pool): Large (4), Pounce (1), Limbs (Arms, 2), Limbs (Arms, 2), Claws (Legs, 1), Claws (Arms, 1), Improved Damage (Claws, 1), Rend (2)
Special Abilities: Darkvision, Link, Share Spells, Devotion, Multiattack
Attack Routine: +1 greatsword +18/+13 (3d6+16, 19-20 crit) and bite +16 (1d8+6) and 4 claws +16 (2d6+6) and rend 2d6+21 if two or more claws hit.
On turn 1, the summoner casts haste and moves and the Eidolon makes a flying charge of up to 140 feet, pounces, and full attacks, making 3 greatsword attacks, 4 claw attacks, a bite, and a rend at an average to-hit bonus of +19.
Just for fun, we'll compare this to a Fire Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/giants/giant-true/fire-giant), the iconic CR 10 melee monster. It has an AC of 24. Assuming average rolls and no criticals, the Eidolon can expect to do about 143 damage. A Fire Giant has 142 HP. You can push the average damage up much higher by getting the Eidolon better items or more buffs.
Now, granted, things won't always turn out this neatly, but the fact that the Eidolon has a better-than-average chance of 1-round-killing a monster that's supposed to be a challenge for an entire party is fairly impressive.
Sample Builds (Reader Contributions)
Flank Buddy (1st Level) - Contributed by Elyza
Form: quadruped
AC: 19 (23 with mage armor, stacking 27 shield)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40'
Size: Small
Ability Scores: <10 16 13 7 10 11>
Chosen Skills: <Acrobatics(1)> +15, <Sleight of Hand(1)> +7, <2 others>
Base Skills: <Perception(1)> +12, <Stealth(1)> +11
Feats: Dodge (1st)
Evolutions (base): bite, limbs(legs), limbs(legs)
Evolutions (extra): Skilled(Acrobatics)(1), Skilled(Perception)(1), Imp Nat Armor(1)
Attack Routine: Bite +2 (1d4+0)
Notes: This build walks point. He has the best perception bonus of anyone in the party. If he sets off a trap that does more than 15-20 points damage, he will be back tomorrow, with a hangover, instead of dead. In a battle, he uses acrobatics to move through threatened squares with near immunity to get into flank. Readying to aid another once a compatriot moves to their flank position, then performs Aid Another so the compatriot gets a combined +4 to their attack. He doesn't take Weapon Finesse, because feats cannot be swapped out when he transmogrifies into a strength based attacker later. Dodge is always nice, but pick a feat that will be useful throughout his career. He is not the kill stealing star of the show. He makes everyone elses jobs safer and easier.
Accompanying Summoner:
Str 16, Cha 12, Heirloom Greatsword, does 2d6+4 damage, with either +5, +7 or +9 to hit. Spells: Shield, Expeditious Retreat. If the party doesn't have planning or surprise, neither spell is a required cast. But, when you have the timing advantage, they are quite useful. This summoner should be built for fighting.
PFS: After the 1st, module, pick up a wand of Mage Armor for 2PA. 2nd module, Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon.
Mounted Dragon-In-Training (1st-10th level) - Contributed by Torinath
1st-level:
<Mounted (a.k.a. Dragon in-training>
Form: <quadruped>
AC: 14 (10 Base, +2 NA, +2 Dex)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40’
Ability Scores: <Str 16 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11>
Skills: Acrobatics +6, Fly +6, Stealth +6, Perception +4,
Feats: Power Attack (1st)
Evolutions (base): Bite, Limbs(legs)x2
Evolutions (extra): Ability Increase(Str)(2), Mount(1)
Attack Routine: Bite +3 (1d6+5)
Notes: With a Human with MWP(Lance) and Mounted Combat and Enlarge Person on the Eidolon.
5th level:
<Mounted (a.k.a. Dragon in-training> (5th Level)
Form: <quadruped>
AC: 19 (10 Base, +2 NA, +4 AB, +3 Dex)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40’
Ability Scores: <Str 19 Dex 16 Con 13 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11>
Skills: Acrobatics +10, Fly +14, Stealth +10, Perception +7,
Feats: Power Attack (1st), Flyby Attack (3rd)
Evolutions (base): Bite, Limbs(legs)x2
Evolutions (extra): Ability Increase(Strength)(2), Bite(1), Claws(1), Mount(1), Flight(2), Pounce(1)
Attack Routine: Bite +6 (1d6+12), 2 claws +6 (1d4+4)
Notes: Human will now have Ride-by Attack.
10th level:
<Mounted (a.k.a. Dragon in-training> (10th Level)
Form: <quadruped>
AC: 25 (10 Base, +2 NA, +8 AB, +3 Dex, +2 NA(Large), +1 Dodge, -1 Size)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40’
Ability Scores: <Str 28 Dex 16 Con 17 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11>
Skills: Acrobatics +14, Fly +14, Stealth +14, Perception +11,
Feats: Power Attack (1st), Flyby Attack (3rd), Dodge
Evolutions (base): Bite, Limbs(legs)x2
Evolutions (extra): Bite(1), Claws(1), Energy Attacks(2) Large(4), Mount(1), Flight(2), Pounce(1), Tail(1), Tail Slap(1)
Attack Routine: Bite +13 (1d8+1d6+22), 2 claws +13 (1d6+1d6+15), and Tail Slap +11(1d8+1d6+7)
Notes: Human will now have Spirited Charge.
Nom-beast (1st-20th level) - Contributed by erik542
Meant to out-right kill one person at a time while not being a glass cannon. (Biped half-elf build)
Level 1:
Evos:
Bite, Energy
Feats:
IUS
Level 5:
Evos:
Bite, Slam, Energy, Trip, 3 left for setting appropriate
Feats:
IUS, Improved Grapple (qualify for this by taking advantage of ability score increase, and later put a point into dex at level 5)
Stat boost: Dex
Level 10:
You should get your Eidolon a +2 dex belt before making it large
Evos:
Large, Swallow Whole, Bite, Grab (bite), Improved Damage (bite), Reach (bite), 4 left for preference / aspect
Feats:
IUS, Improved Grapple, INA (bite), Greater Grapple (I like this over lunge here to make eating quick and easy)
Stat boost: Con
Level 15:
a +4 dex belt shouldn't be too taxing by level 13
Evos:
Huge, Swallow Whole, Bite, Grab, ID, Reach, 5 extra
Feats:
IUS, IG, INA, GG, Lunge, preference
Stat: I like Int for the sudden burst in skills.
Level 20:
Same basic build except a lot more room for things with 13 evos left
Feats:
An additional 2 spare feats
Notes: The breathing room comes from not worrying about the full round attack. Combat should go as follows:
Charge, Grab
Eat, Grab
Repeat
If you can eat a caster you don't have to worry about it casting inside because the check is 10+spell level+CMB. They can't make ~50+level at level 20. Another anti-caster tactic is to boost up that acrobatics and use an evo for a +8 and skill focus for another +6 (total +29@level20) and simply charge up to the caster and eat them.
Kitty! (1st-20th level) - Contributed by erik542
Half-elf Quadruped
Level 1:
Evos:
Claws, pounce, Improved damage (claws)
Feats:
Power Attack
Level 5:
Evos:
Claws, pounce, Improved damage (claws), Energy attacks, 4 extras
Feats:
Power Attack, Improved Overrun
Level 10:
Evos:
Claws (2), Legs, Pounce, ID, Energy, Large, Rend, 2 extras
Feats:
Power Attack, Improved Overrun, Charge Through, Greater Overrun
Level 15:
Evos:
Claws (2), Legs, Pounce, Huge, 6 extras
Feats:
PA, IO, CT, GO, Dazing Assault, 1 other
Level 20:
Evos:
Claws (3), Legs (2), Pounce, Huge, 13 extra
Feats:
PA, IO, CT, Dazing, GO, 3 others
Strategy, Charge Squishy, daze squishy, also with greater overrun your AoO can be used to daze the clanky that you had to charge through. This build switches focus when it hits level 14. It switches from a DPR build to a BC build. At the start it tries to either completely mow down or otherwise take the squishy out of the fight. When it gets Dazing Assault, it tries to go the stun lock route throwing multiple DC 20+ saves at the bad guys. This can just about completely lock down 2 people. This kind of build will probably go with a Rod of Dazing Spell just to maximize the amount of dazing.
Skill-dolon (1st-10th level) - Contributed by nategar05
<Skill-dolon> (1st Level)
Form: Serpentine
AC: 13 (Base 10 + Dex 3)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 20 ft
Ability Scores: <12 16 13 7 10 11>
Skills: <Perception(1)> +4, <Stealth(1)> +7, <Acrobatics(1)> +7, <Disable Device(1)> +7, <Diplomacy(1)> +4
Feats: Weapon Finesse (1st)
Evolutions (base): <bite, climb, reach(bite), tail, tail slap>
Evolutions (extra): Limbs(Arms), Mount
Attack Routine: Bite +4 (1d6+1) and Tail Slap -1 (1d6+1).
Notes: Halfling favored class bonus (or 5th level ability increase to Int) gives extra skill point. Maxes out first four skills and dips the fifth into useful skills. Halfling has Outrider alternate racial trait (bonus on Ride and Handle Animal) and Wanderlust alternate racial trait (+1 CL on movement spells, +2 on Knowledge(Geography) and Survival). Expeditious Retreat compensates for slow movement. Mage Armor, a good ride check, and Mounted Combat from the halfling help protect the Eidolon from attacks, though admittedly not much at level due to short spell durations.
<Skill-dolon> (5th Level)
Form: <Serpentine>
AC: 19 (Base 10 + Dex 3 + INA 2 + NA 4)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 20 ft
Ability Scores: <14 17 13 7 10 11>
Skills: <Perception(4)> +15, <Stealth(4)> +18, <Acrobatics(4)> +18, <Disable Device(4)> +18, Diplomacy(1)> +4, <Sense Motive(1)> +4, <Bluff(1)> +4, <Intimidate(1)> +4
Feats: Weapon Finesse (1st), Combat Reflexes (2nd)
Evolutions (base): <bite, climb, reach(bite), tail, tail slap>
Evolutions (extra): <Skilled(Perception)(1), Skilled(Stealth)(1), Skilled(Disable Device)(1), Skilled(Acrobatics)(1), Mount(1), Improved Natural Armor(1), Limbs(Arms)(2)>
Attack Routine: Bite +7 (1d6+2) and Tail Slap +2 (1d6+2)
Notes: With impressive skills, the Eidolon can make a good skill-monkey rogue, freeing up options for the Summoner and the rest of the party.
<Skill-dolon> (10th Level)
Form: <Serpentine>
AC: 28 (Base 10 + Dex 8 + INA 2 + NA 8)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 20 ft
Ability Scores: <16 26 13 7 10 11>
Skills: <Perception(8)> +19, <Stealth(8)> +27, <Acrobatics(8)> +27, <Disable Device(8)> +27, <Diplomacy(3)> +6, <Sense Motive(2)> +5, <Bluff(2)> +5, <Intimidate(1)> +4
Feats: Weapon Finesse (1st), Combat Reflexes (2nd), Lunge (3rd), Agile Maneuvers (4th), Multiattack (bonus)
Evolutions (base): <bite, climb, reach (bite), tail, tail slap>
Evolutions (extra): <Skilled(Perception)(1), Skilled(Stealth)(1), Skilled(Disable Device)(1), Skilled(Acrobatics)(1), Mount(1), Improved Natural Armor(1), Trip(Bite)(2), Ability Increase(Dex, 2x)(4), Limbs(Arms)(2)>
Attack Routine: Bite +13/+8 (1d6+3) and Tail Slap +8 (1d6+3)
Notes: By this point there are some evolution and skill points to spare, so you can change a few evolutions to make it even more Skilled if your party needs a face. A good CMB and Trip on the bite helps control the battlefield. Medium size helps with practicality. Improved Share Spells with Reduce Person could also be helpful.
Tank-dalon (1st-10th level) - Contributed by nategar05
Build intended to soak up enemies' attacks and influence the battleground. Focuses on Con/HP more than other builds. Gnome Summoner uses favored class bonus to give HP to Eidolon and takes Toughness. He has the Academician and Gift of Tongues alternate racial traits.
<Tank-dalon> (1st Level)
Form: <Quadruped>
AC: 14 (Base 10 + Dex 2 + INA 2)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft
Ability Scores: <14 14 13 7 10 11>
Skills: <Intimidate(1)> +12, <Perception(1)> +4, <Diplomacy(1)> +12, <Bluff(1)> +4
Feats: Antagonize (1st)
Evolutions (base): <bite, limbs(legs)(2)>
Evolutions (extra): Improved Natural Armor(1), Skilled(Intimidate)(1), Skilled(Diplomacy)(1)
Attack Routine: Bite +3 (1d6+2)
Notes: Not enough evolution points to get an ability increase in Con yet and still Antagonize well. However, Antagonize makes sure that attacks go to the character that comes back the next day, rather than the one that doesn't (except with a mustache, a new hat, and an accent of course). Diplomacy and intimidate are useful with Antagonize and are good for influencing people. Gnome picks up Mage Armor, Shield, and (later) Compel Hostility.
<Tank-dalon> (5th Level)
Form: <Quadruped>
AC: 21 (Base 10 + Dex 3 + INA 4 + NA 4)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft
Ability Scores: <16 16 16 7 10 11>
Skills: <Intimidate(4)> +15, <Perception(4)> +7, <Diplomacy(4)> +15, <Bluff(2)> +5, <Sense Motive(2)> +5,
Feats: Antagonize (1st), Weapon Focus(Bite) (2nd)
Evolutions (base): <bite, limbs(legs)(2)>
Evolutions (extra): Improved Natural Armor(2x)(2), Skilled(Intimidate)(1), Skilled(Diplomacy)(1), Claws(1), Pounce(1), Ability Increase(Con)(2)
Attack Routine: Bite +8 (1d6+3) and 2 claws +7 (1d4+3)
Notes: Weapon Focus (Bite) is just a step to Dazzling Display. Also helpful for when you pick up the Poison evolution (Need all the extra to-hit. It is a Con build rather than a Str build after all). Bear's Endurance, Evolution Surge(lesser), and (later) Barkskin helps.
<Tank-dalon> (10th Level)
Form: <Quadruped>
AC: 28 (Base 10 + Dex 3 + INA 6 + NA 10 - Size 1)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft
Ability Scores: <26 16 19 7 10 11>
Skills: <Intimidate(8)> +19, <Perception(8)> +11, <Diplomacy(8)> +19, <Bluff(4)> +7, <Sense Motive(4)> +7
Feats: Antagonize (1st), Weapon Focus(Bite) (2nd), Dazzling Display(Bite) (3rd), Ability Focus(Poison) (4th), Multiattack (bonus)
Evolutions (base): <bite, limbs(legs)(2)>
Evolutions (extra): Skilled(Intimidate)(1), Skilled(Diplomacy)(1), Mount(1), Improved Natural Armor(3x)(3), Poison (Con based)(4), Large(4)>
Attack Routine: Bite +16/+11 (1d6+8)
Notes: With a good Con, the Eidolon should have a pretty good number of HP. Decent AC for a large creature (At level 12 may be better off with medium and an extra application of Con increase though). Potentially better Bluff and Sense Motive if skilled is applied. DC 20 for Poison. Set up for Intimidating Prowess for the next feat, freeing up an evolution point that was put into Skilled or simply added to really intimidate things. Between poisoning, intimidating, and antagonizing, you'll never run out of combat options. Mount gives another option for the Gnome.
Spells
http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j414/Saph7/Summon_by_artsangel.jpg
Summoner Spellcasting
For all your Eidolon's power, an Eidolon alone is just a fighter with sub-par HD and equipment. It's your spells that transform the Eidolon into a real combat monster.
At first sight the Summoner spell list seems weak, only going up to level 6, but this is misleading. Summoners get many excellent spells discounted one or two (or even three!) spell levels down from the wizard/sorcerer list - in some cases you can actually cast them BEFORE the other full casters. You also get the bard spells known progression rather than that of the sorcerer, starting each new spell level with two spells known.
You do, however, have an Achilles heel, and that's your spell slots. A 6th-level summoner with an 18 Charisma gets 9 spells per day of 1st-level and over. By comparison, a specialist Wizard gets 14, and a Sorcerer 17. You will run out, and you'll do it often.
This means that using your spells efficiently is a big deal for Summoners. Pick long-duration buffs and battlefield control effects that give you a lot of bang for your buck, avoid spells that need to be recast frequently, and make use of wands and scrolls where possible.
A Note on Spell Selection
The general rule for spontaneous casters when looking at a spell is to ask "Will this be useful every day?" If the answer's no, you probably shouldn't learn it. Wizards can afford to take niche spells that they'll only use one session in 10: you can't.
Try to vary your spell list between the types of spells. As a very rough rule of thumb, at each spell level you probably want 2 buffs, 1 debuff, and 1 other. Be careful your spells don't overlap. Greater Invisibility and Displacement are both good combat buffs, but there's no point taking both. Take into account durations as well - you want a mix of long-duration buffs that you can cast at the beginning of the day or when you enter a dangerous area, and short-duration combat spells. Try not to take too many 1 round/level buffs, no matter how good they are - you won't have the time to cast more than one or two in a typical combat.
You'll see the advice "Scroll it" or "Wand it" coming up a lot. Scrolls and wands are highly cost-effective ways of getting access to low-level or rarely-used spells that don't depend on caster level or save DC. Unless a spell:
a) needs a high caster level,
b) needs a high Save DC, or
c) is high-level and is something you'll be casting often,
you should consider taking it in scroll or wand form instead.
Level 0 Spells (Cantrips)
Acid Splash: Even at level 1, the damage is pitiful. You're better off shooting a crossbow.
Arcane Mark: More for roleplaying than anything else, sort of the magical equivalent of graffiti.
Daze: At levels 1-2, this is a solid debuff, but it quickly becomes useless as you level up.
Detect Magic: I don't actually have to explain why this is good, do I?
Guidance: A +1 one-off bonus doesn't seem like much, and it isn't, but it's free and unlike most cantrips it stays just as useful throughout your career. Whenever anyone in the party's about to make an important check, poke them with this. (Note: Poking them in real life and saying "Guidance. *poke* Guidance. *poke* Guidance. *poke*" is funny but may cause them to hit you.)
Light: Not as good as Dancing Lights, but handy if you've forgotten your torch.
Mage Hand: Pick up keys through bars, impress children, or just grab that drink without getting out of bed.
Mending: Takes a while to cast, but a handy utility effect.
Message: Now this is really good, kind of the equivalent of short-range radio. Put it on the rogue before she scouts ahead, on the wizard before he turns invisible - hell, just cast it whenever your party's doing anything.
Open/Close: "Is it trapped?" "Let me check." BOOM! "Yeah, it's trapped."
Read Magic: Good for identifying scrolls, if you don't have a high-Spellcraft character to do it for you.
Resistance: It would be much better if only it wasn't a resistance bonus. As it is, this becomes useless as soon as the party picks up Cloaks of Resistance (which they'll do starting at about 4th-level). Still, at low levels this is a decent spammable buff.
Level 1 Spells
Alarm: You don't really have the spells to spare on this kind of thing, but it's admittedly a pretty good effect. Might be worth considering once you get high enough level that you find you've got 1st-level slots spare.
Ant Haul: Impressive boost to carrying capacity, but way too situational. Scroll it if you want it.
Daze Monster: Summoners get this earlier than anyone else. Pity it's still so weak.
Endure Elements: It's a great spell, but you don't want it as a spell known. Scroll or wand it.
Enlarge Person: Good on your Eidolon, and great if it's a biped (grants Reach!) Boosts damage at the expense of an effective -2 to AC. Slow casting time, however. Decent duration, so if you don't have enough spells known, you should probably get scrolls or even a wand of this.
Expeditious Retreat: Would get a higher rating if Haste wasn't so much better. I'd suggest scrolling it, but +30 speed really is nice and this isn't a bad choice for a form like Serpentine which is a bit slow.
Feather Fall: Too situational, though when you need it you REALLY need it.
Grease: Possibly the best level 1 spell in the game, this is a superb and incredibly flexible effect. Trip enemies, make them drop their weapons, clog up corridors, help allies escape grapples, and more. On top of that, it's SR: No and benefits from Spell Focus (Conjuration).
Identify: You're generally better off with multiple castings of Detect Magic.
Jump: Take Haste or Expeditious Retreat instead.
Mage Armour: Essential for Eidolon buffing. At higher levels, cast this in the morning with an Extend rod to last all day. You should probably carry a couple of scrolls as well for emergencies.
Magic Fang: A good spell for Eidolons with one powerful natural attack. Probably not worth spending an action on in most fights, but essential against incorporeals and things with DR/Magic. Probably better as a scroll, though.
Magic Mouth: What a weird spell to put on the summoner list. Very VERY situational; can be a decent watcher, but if you want it, scroll or wand it.
Mount: Horse on demand. Useful for transport, especially if you've got Ride, and a trapfinder if you're cruel. Great duration.
Protection from <Insert Alignment Here>: A powerful multi-use defensive buff. Use against enemy summons and mind control. If you don't have the spells known, make sure to bring some scrolls of this.
Reduce Person: Can be used as a defensive buff (boost your AC and ranged to-hit) or as a way to get a Large or Huge Eidolon through tight spaces.
Rejuvenate Eidolon, Lesser: At levels 1-2, this is useful for Eidolon healing, but as you level up you'll want this in a wand rather than spending your spell slots on it. The extra healing isn't enough to make this better than Cure Light Wounds, but the fact that it's on your spell list when CLW isn't makes it worth considering.
Shield: Not as good as Mage Armour, but you can have both and stacking a +4 Shield bonus on a +4 Armour bonus can make your Eidolon almost impossible to hit. Consider getting a wand of this and casting it on your Eidolon whenever it goes into a room.
Summon Monster I: The summon monster spells are discussed more fully in the next post, but the main reason you'd use this over your class ability is to give your Eidolon a flanking partner. Decent tactic, but you probably have better uses for your spells (and actions).
Unfetter: Removes that pesky distance restriction on your Eidolon. Beware, though - it also removes Life Link.
Unseen Servant: Who wouldn't want a servant on call? Lots of fun, and actually very useful in dungeon environments for dealing with traps and loose items.
Ventriloquism: Not really your area, but you might be able to make use of it.
Level 2 Spells
Alter Self: Once the most powerful second-level spell in 3.5, Alter Self is a pale shadow of what it used to be. Still useful for its versatility, but not much good for the Eidolon as it causes the Eidolon to lose its natural attacks (unless all you want is a disguise).
Barkskin: This starts off average, but the AC bonus increases as you go up the levels until it's actually better than Mage Armour. Use with a rod of Extend Spell to maximise duration. Don't be in a rush to take it, though - 6th or 10th level is a better place to pick it up.
Bear's Endurance: A solid toughness boost.
Blur: 20% concealment is nice, but probably not worth a standard action in the middle of combat.
Bull's Strength: The classic damage buff. The only reason this isn't rated Excellent is that by about the time you get this, you'll be thinking of adding Strength-boosting items to your Eidolon, and they don't stack.
Cat's Grace: Another decent buff. You probably don't want more than one out of the trio of this, Bear's Endurance, and Bull's Strength.
Create Pit: Funny and useful. An enemy that fails its save is down a 20-30 foot pit, taking most creatures without mobility powers out of the fight. Benefits from Spell Focus (Conjuration).
Detect Thoughts: It's a non-buff non-combat spell, and you don't have many slots spare for those . . . but it's pretty handy all the same.
Eagle's Splendour: Boost your save DCs, buff an Eidolon's Intimidate, or just look nice for meeting the king.
Evolution Surge, Lesser: Wings for flight, energy damage for natural attacks, tremorsense for hiding enemies, energy immunity . . . this is a superb flexible buff for your Eidolon, and it's hard not to take it.
Fox's Cunning: With so many other good buff spells, this doesn't really stand out.
Glide: Take Feather Fall instead, or just wait for flight.
Glitterdust: When choosing spells known, you want flexibility, and this delivers in spades. Anti-stealth, anti-invisibility, SR: No, and a powerful blinding effect. Your opponent gets extra saves to throw it off, but if they're blinded with an angry Eidolon eating their face, they're likely not to live long enough to get the chance. Also benefits from Spell Focus (Conjuration).
Haste: One of the best buff spells in the game, and you get it a level earlier than everyone else! Woo! Buffs to speed, AC, and attack, and you can target the whole party too. The only (very small) drawback is that Eidolons using natural attacks might not benefit from the extra attack . . . maybe. See the FAQ.
Invisibility: A very handy defensive buff and utility spell. Good in Stealth Summoner builds, where you stay hidden and let your creatures do the fighting for you. Note that for offensive purposes, you get the Greater version next level: this is more defensive/sneaky.
Levitate: It can be useful, but there are so many better options at this level.
Misdirection: Too niche.
Owl's Wisdom: Will save buff, and that's about it.
Phantom Steed: Another good spell that you get before everyone else. Eventually gets to fly, and has an impressive top speed.
Protection from Arrows: Again, a niche defensive spell. There are better buffs to pick from.
Resist Energy: This spell can be a lifesaver, but generally requires you to anticipate what energy type you'll be hit with. Better from level 7 onwards, obviously. Evolution Surge, Lesser (Energy Immunity) is better for short notice.
See Invisibility: How often do you get attacked by invisible creatures? If the answer's "every session" then take this, but otherwise buy a scroll.
Slow: Another great debuff that you get a level before everyone else. The multi-target aspect really makes it shine.
Spider Climb: Useful, but you have so many other spells competing for the place that it's hard to find room for it.
Summon Eidolon: For when bad things happen to good eidolons: get your eidolon back for a few minutes even after it's been killed. Probably better on scroll or wand, but this lets you do some neat tricks - see post 8.
Summon Monster II: This is starting to fall behind your summon ability. Use that instead.
Summon Swarm: Not terrible or anything, but it's highly unlikely you'll have a slot to spend on this.
Wind Wall: If archers are annoying you, don't sit there behind a Wind Wall staring at them, go kill them.
Level 3 Spells
Aqueous Orb: It's a decent attack spell, but you have better choices.
Black Tentacles: Nasty battlefield control spell. Your Charisma doesn't matter, only your level.
Charm Monster: Lots of things are immune and it requires the target to fail the save . . . but if you can get past that, you get to make the biggest, meanest thing around your friend for days and days.
Devolution: Awful. A debuff that only works on Eidolons?
Dimension Door: One of the best utility spells around. Doubles as attack and defense, and you get it at a lower spell level than other classes, too!
Dimensional Anchor: For normal use, it's good at what it does, but you won't need it all that often. However, for those planar binders out there, this is worth taking.
Dispel Magic: Dispelling is good, but the divine casters do it better than you.
Displacement: 50% miss chance would make this a good choice . . . if it didn't have to compete with Greater Invisibility.
Enlarge Person, Mass: Stick with the single-target version.
Evolution Surge: Fast Healing, Large size, and Blindsense stand out here. Probably not quite as good as the Lesser version for its level, but still a great spell.
Fire Shield: Cast it on your Eidolon, watch attackers burn! Good energy protection too.
Fly: Never a bad spell to have . . . at this level. But next level you get Overland Flight, so you may want to wait for that instead.
Heroism: A good long-duration buff with a rare bonus type, this is well worth Extending.
Invisibility, Greater: Another in the list of great spells that you get at a lower spell level than everybody else. A brutal offensive buff and a powerful defensive one too.
Locate Creature: Way too situational.
Magic Circle against X: It's not terrible, but you probably want to leave this to other classes. This pairs up with Dimensional Anchor to be used in Planar Binding, but I'd be tempted to just get scrolls.
Magic Fang, Greater: the iconic natural weapon buff. Great duration. Best with a single powerful natural attack, almost as good with multiples, goes down sharply in usefulness if your Eidolon picks up a sword.
Minor Creation: Nice, but you don't really have the Craft for it.
Nondetection: Too niche.
Protection from Energy: Not really worth it compared to the alternatives.
Rage: There are far better buff spells.
Reduce Person, Mass: Really not worth it.
Rejuvenate Eidolon: In virtually all cases you're better off spamming a healing wand.
Seek Thoughts: Too situational, really.
Spiked Pit: Create Pit's bigger brother. Still good, though starting to fall behind.
Stoneskin: Expensive, but if you're willing to soak up the cost (which I'm usually not) this is a powerful defensive buff.
Summon Monster IV: Summon Monster's caught up again, but it faces stiff competition for a slot.
Tongues: Too niche, really. Besides, you've got Linguistics.
Wall of Fire: The second of your good battlefield control spells this level, and one of your only effective damage spells.
Wall of Ice: The third. Again, lower-level than on the Wizard or Sorcerer list.
Water Breathing: Unless you're playing an aquatic campaign, skip this one.
Level 4 Spells
Acid Pit: The Pit spells are becoming a worse and worse deal by this point - Wizards got access to this one at level 7. On top of that, more and more monsters have ways of getting out of them.
Baleful Polymorph: Save or be turned into a squirrel. One of your few Fortitude save-or-loses.
Bear's Endurance, Mass: By now pretty much everyone in your party is going to be loaded down with stat boosting items. If you want a mass X's Y spell, this is probably the best choice, but it's unlikely to do much and it'll get steadily less useful as your party's wealth continues to increase.
Bull's Strength, Mass: See above.
Cat's Grace, Mass: See above.
Contact Other Plane: One of the more powerful divination spells, this can get you a lot of information if used carefully, but it depends a bit on DM discretion.
Dismissal: Sure, it gets rid of extraplanar things, but ONLY extraplanar things.
Eagle's Splendour, Mass: Most of the party won't need this.
Evolution Surge, Greater: The top of the Evolution Surge tree, gaining you the benefit of both of the previous two in a single action! Excellent buff.
Fox's Cunning, Mass: Again, pretty useless for most of the party.
Hold Monster: Save or die . . . probably. Lots of things are immune, though.
Insect Plague: At this level, wasp swarms aren't much more than an annoyance.
Mage's Faithful Hound: Too niche.
Magic Jar: As the only necromancy spell on the Summoner spell list, this is a bit of an anomaly. Can do some stupidly powerful things, but requires much more planning than most spells.
Major Creation: Leave this to the wizard.
Overland Flight: A great way to give your Eidolon (or yourself) flight, effectively saving you evolution points.
Owl's Wisdom, Mass: A +2 to the party's Will save isn't bad, but there are better choices.
Planar Binding, Lesser: Now you can have even more outsiders following you around. Might want to wait for the higher-level versions, though.
Purified Calling: It's effectively a weaker Heal on an eidolon that takes a minute to cast. In most situations you're better off using a wand or giving your eidolon Fast Healing.
Sending: Great at what it does, but what it does is very specialised.
Summon Monster V: Falling behind again.
Teleport: Another one discounted from its usual spell level - you get this slightly later than a Wizard, but it's still an excellent spell. Don't forget to unsummon or shrink your Eidolon before porting, and trade it out once you get the Greater version.
Transmogrify: Very slow to cast, very expensive. I really can't imagine how you'd use this often enough to make it worth it. If you want to change your Eidolon, just use Evolution Surge.
Wall of Stone: The next step up in the Wall line; an effective battefield control spell.
Level 5 Spells
Banishment: Again, it's good against outsiders, but most of the time you'll be fighting something else.
Creeping Doom: Centipede swarms are a joke to CR 13-15 monsters.
Dispel Magic, Greater: It's a good spell, but you're probably better off leaving this to the other casters.
Ethereal Jaunt: A good escape or mobility spell for you or your Eidolon.
Heroism, Greater: One of the most powerful Eidolon buffs out there. It's just a shame you don't get it at the levels Bards do.
Hungry Pit: At level 4, Create Pit was good: at level 13, Hungry Pit just doesn't make the cut.
Invisibility, Mass: Cloaking the party can be useful occasionally, but not that often.
Planar Adaption: Good if you go plane-hopping often and don't have anyone else to cast it for you, but there are probably better picks out there.
Planar Binding: 12 HD worth of outsiders can be very nice. Even if you get it after the Wizard, this is worth considering. Note that you'll want to access to Magic Circle/Dimensional Anchor, either in scroll form, by asking a party member, or as a last resort out of your spells known.
Plane Shift: Now you can go anywhere in the planes - or dump your enemies there instead.
Repulsion: I tend to think of these sort of spells as fairly pointless; if you can get the enemy to fail a Will save, you're usually better making it against something that'll take them out of the fight. (Second opinion by James Maissen: "Highly disagree, Repulsion is a wonderful spell. Simply withdraw from them and cause them to re-enter the field.")
Rejuvenate Eidolon, Greater: 40ish damage healed isn't worth a spell known at this level when the Cleric and Druid can do 150.
Sequester: Way too situational.
Simulacrum: Even if there are some ridiculous things you can pull off with this, it's probably too niche a spell to be worth learning.
Spell Turning: Excellent buff against spellcasting enemies, for your Eidolon or for you.
Summon Monster VII: This is the last level at which your summon spells keep up with your Summon class ability. If you want to take one of the high-level ones, you should make it this one.
Teleport, Greater: The accept-no-substitutes mobility spell. Switch out Teleport for this when you have the chance.
True Seeing: Costs money, but it's worth it for the "Just Say No" to illusions.
Wall of Iron: Probably not worth a 5th-level spell known. Stick with Wall of Stone or Wall of Ice.
Level 6 Spells
Antipathy: Weird and very situational.
Binding: Never seen this used even once, much less frequently.
Charm Monster, Mass: Not enough of an improvement on Charm Monster to be worth the slot.
Dimensional Lock: Being able to shut down planar travel would be handy, except that most of the creatures with transportation SLAs have SR as well.
Discern Location: Without this spell, if you want to find something, you ask NPCs. With this spell, you just ask the DM.
Dominate Monster: Freaking amazing when it works. Between Will negates, SR: Yes, and immunities, though, it's hard to make it stick.
Incendiary Cloud: 6d6 fire damage a round would have been scary . . . five or ten levels ago. Against the kind of opposition you're facing at these levels, it's not much more than a nuisance.
Maze: See that "None" in the saving throw description? That's why this is good. Make a challenging fight easier by splitting up the enemies.
Planar Adaption, Mass: I guess you can be the party plane guide. It makes thematic sense, at least.
Planar Binding, Greater: The top of the Planar Binding tree, this gives you access to outsiders easily powerful enough to destroy your enemies . . . or you.
Protection from Spells: Most of the time you're better off with Resistance items, but there are limited situations where this is worth the money.
Summon Monster VIII: Stick with your Summon IX or Gate SLAs.
Sympathy: See Antipathy.
Teleportation Circle: Despite the cost, this is a very powerful effect, able to transport an entire army. If you don't have an army and only need to bring the rest of your party, Greater Teleport is better.
Summoned Monsters
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Summons vs Eidolon
One of the major changes made to the Summoner from Beta to final version was a change to its Summon ability. The Summon Monster I-IX SLA can now only be used while the Eidolon is not summoned. Although a definite nerf, this isn't as bad as you might think: it just means you'll be spending your first round on buff spells instead of on summons. You only have so many actions, after all.
Effectively what this does is give you a choice between going around with your Eidolon active, or not. If you keep your Eidolon around you get to use it instantly in the first round of a combat, but you can't use your summon monster. If you keep your Eidolon dismissed, however, you can open a combat by summoning a monster of your choice, and only pull out the Eidolon when you need it.
Summons have two main advantages over Eidolons - they're more varied and they're more expendable. You can pick the right Summon for the job, and unlike Eidolons you don't care if they get killed or have their levels or ability scores drained.
In practice, you'll mostly use this as a backup for your Eidolon - if your Eidolon gets killed or crippled for the day, just spam summoned monsters instead. Still, summons are powerful, and leaving your Eidolon in the ether and relying on summoned monsters instead is a viable tactic. Since you can only keep one set active at a time, don't bother keeping them alive - throw them into combat and let them soak up the enemy attacks.
Summon Monster Tips and Tricks
Using your Summon Monster SLA is a standard action that immediately ends any previous use of the SLA. You can use this to squeeze out two full attacks in a single round. Have a previously-summoned monster attack, then take your turn, summon another monster (dismissing the old one) and have that attack too.
While summoning another monster with your SLA dismisses an old one, that doesn't apply to summoning another monster with your spells. If you keep one or two Summon Monsters in your spell list, you can have multiple summons out at once.
You can have your Summon Monster SLA and your Eidolon out at the same time. Just use the Summon ability, then take 1 minute to call your Eidolon. (The rules say you can't use your Summon ability while your Eidolon is active, but there's nothing stopping you summoning your Eidolon while a Summon is active.) Since your Summon lasts 1 minute/level, this is a great way to double your hitting power if you have some prep time.
You can even get a summon and your Eidolon out within two rounds! First use your Summon ability, then cast the Summon Eidolon spell. As a nifty bonus, this lets your Eidolon gain +4 to Strength and Constitution if you have the Augment Summoning feat.
The Summon List
The full list of summoned monsters can be found here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster-i). Rather than listing all monsters, the spoilers below will just pick out the notable ones. They aren't rated, as the whole point of summon spells is that you can pick whichever you like every time you cast them. If you want a much more thorough look at the Summon Monster lists, check out Treantmonk's Mastering the Malconvoker (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0) guide. Not everything in it applies to Pathfinder (some creatures are on different Summon lists now), but the advice in there is still very good.
A note for budding summoners: If you're planning to summon a creature, BRING ITS STATS TO THE GAME. Nothing is more annoying than having to put a combat on hold while the Summoner's player pages through the Bestiary.
Assistance on notable monsters helpfully provided by erik542.
Summon Monster I
Dog: Decent single attack.
Eagle: Decent triple attack.
Viper: Poison with a sucky DC, but you might get lucky.
Note: Always have summoned monsters use their Smite ability in the first round of combat. Especially at this level, they'll be lucky to last more than a round anyway.
Summon Monster II
Elemental (small): Nice for their special abilities.
Wolf: The trip can be good.
Summon Monster III
Aurochs: Hits fairly hard and tramples.
Dire Bat: Detector.
Dretch: Can stinking cloud things.
Lantern Archon: comes with a bunch of moderately useful abilities.
Snake, Constrictor: Grabs and constricts.
Summon Monster IV
Hound Archon: Spams aid, good aura, and Magic Circle Against Evil. Recommended.
Lion: Good charger, summon it 10 feet from the enemy and have it pounce.
Mephits: Lots of SLAs available here.
Summon Monster V
Anklyosaurus: Good damage and brutal stunlock.
Babau: Dispel and See Invis at will.
Bralani Azata: Heals, buffs, and throws lightning bolts.
Large elemental: These are getting good now.
Summon Monster VI
Dire Bear/Tiger: Ouch.
Erinyes: True Seeing, very nice.
Invisible Stalker: An invisible man can be handy.
Lillend Azata: A whole raft of special abilities.
Shadow Demon: Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation.
Succubus: Charming with DCs in the 20s.
Summon Monster VII
Bone Devil: More SLAs.
Tyrannosaurus: Eats things, really well.
Vrock: Another nasty set of abilities.
Summon Monster VIII
Barbed Devil: Loads of special abilities here.
Elder Elemental: Powerful, versatile beatstick.
Hezrou: Grabs and rips.
Summon Monster IX
There are really no bad choices at this level. The Astral Deva, Ghaele Azata, Glabrezu, Ice Devil, Nalfeshnee, and Trumpet Archon all have a crazy amount of SLAs and special abilities, not to mention great melee attacks. Your biggest problem will be remembering all the things your summons can do.
Items
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Having to equip both their Eidolon and themselves means Summoners tend to end up short on cash - as such, the Craft Wondrous Item feat is highly recommended to make your GP go further. Every time you go shopping you'll have to decide whether to upgrade your Eidolon's equipment, or your own. The Eidolon will be in melee more, but it also won't always be around.
The Shared Slots Problem
Summoners share magic item body slots with their Eidolon, which is a major nuisance. Here are some ways round it.
Get items in different slots: Most magic item abilities can at least in theory use different body slots from standard. For instance, if you want both you and your Eidolon to have Resistance items (a good idea, by the way) get a Cloak of Resistance for yourself and a Vest of Resistance for your Eidolon. The 3.5 book Magic Item Compendium has a good guide to which slots are and aren't associated: it suggests that a nonassociated item should have a +50% cost bump.
Combine items: Per the Pathfinder rules on "Adding New Abilities", you can combine items in the same slot for a +50% price increase. Doing this can free up some extra slots. Multi-benefit items like the stat boost items are also a good plan.
Use non-slotted items: Ioun stones, etc. This is less preferable than the first two methods, since the price increase is +100% instead of +50%.
Switch around: If worst comes to worst, get a few extra items, leave them off while your Eidolon's around, and put them on when your Eidolon is dismissed. (Summoner items have priority over the Eidolon's.) Wasteful, obviously, but gets the job done.
Recommended Equipment - Eidolon
Amulet of Mighty Fists: Unless you're going a weapon-wielder build, this should be your Eidolon's first buy. Choose between an enhancement bonus (to get magic attacks in the levels before you get access to greater magic fang) and enhancements like Shocking or Flaming (to boost damage over multiple hits). Unfortunately, upgrading it beyond +1 is horribly expensive, even with the Craft Wondrous Item discount.
Weapon: If your Eidolon has a weapon proficiency, buy it several copies of the relevant weapon - I recommend one Silver, one Cold Iron, at medium levels a +1 Magic, and at higher levels a +1 Magic Adamantine. With Eidolon Strength scores, carrying capacity is unlikely to be a problem.
Armour: Eidolons can't wear armour. Use Mage Armour instead.
Shield: Eidolons can use shields, but you're unlikely to have a spare hand.
Stat Boosts, Physical: +2 Strength will be your first priority, upgraded to +4 when you can afford it. Dex and Con probably aren't worth the money until higher levels (remember that with their lower HD Eidolons get less bonus HP than you do from extra Constitution). Try and get your Strength boost as bracers or Gauntlets of Ogre Power rather than a belt, so that your Summoner can wear a Belt of Mighty Constitution.
Resistance: Unless you plan to cast Resistance on your Eidolon once per minute, 1440 times per day, you'll want a resistance item. Trouble is, you'll want one on your Summoner too. Try to get a +1 Vest of Resistance or similar, and upgrade it when you can.
Boots of Speed: Expensive, but excellent for an Eidolon. Craft them if you can afford them.
Recommended Equipment - Summoner
Armour: In ascending order of preference, it goes something like this: Leather < Studded Leather < Chain Shirt < +1 Chain Shirt < +1 Mithral Chain Shirt. You can probably stop at +1 mithral - upgrading further is unlikely to be worth the money.
Weapon: Carry a crossbow. Unless you're playing a mounted or flank buddy summoner, any more than that is overkill.
Shield: Don't bother. A +1 mithral buckler is maybe worth it, but the Eidolon's shield bonus is free.
Stat Boosts, Mental: A Headband of Charisma will be your first pick - even if you don't care much about the save DCs, you can use the extra spells and summoned monsters. Don't bother with Intelligence or Wisdom.
Stat Boosts, Physical: You'll have a problem here because these will conflict with the Eidolon - see above for possible solutions. Constitution is the first choice, Dexterity the second.
Resistance: Failing saving throws is a bad thing, especially at higher levels, so get a Cloak of Resistance as soon as you can afford it.
Healing Wands: You'll probably want a wand of Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon as soon as you can afford it. Once your UMD gets good, you'll want some wands of Cure Light Wounds too.
Other Wands: Any Summoner spell that you expect to cast over and over again is worth picking up as a wand (though healing wands should be the priority). Shield, Mage Armour, and Protection from Evil are good choices.
Scrolls: Get these for situational and utility spells that you won't use often. Endure Elements is a good example of a spell that you don't need often but can be a lifesaver when you do. Skim the Spells section above for ideas - some of my favourites include Invisibility, See Invisibility, Spider Climb, and Dimension Door or Teleport. Once your UMD gets high enough, you can start to include select healing spells like Neutralise Poison or (Lesser) Restoration.
Metamagic Rods: You'll want at least one Lesser Rod of Extend, and probably two. A Lesser Rod of Reach is also worth it, and a Lesser Rod of Dazing can be nasty. Once you have enough gold, a normal Rod of Extend will let you extend your Overland Flights.
Rings: A Ring of Deflection is a bit expensive, but never really a bad choice for either you or your Eidolon. Rings of Wizardry would be a great way of boosting your limited spells per day if they weren't so horribly expensive. At higher levels, a Ring of Freedom of Movement makes an effective get-out-of-jail-free card. Finally, a Ring of Feather Falling is a good choice if you use Overland Flight a lot.
Frequently Asked Questions
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The Summoner wasn't edited as well as it could have been and there are several grey areas in the rules. If you have any questions you'd like answered, post them below.
1. Does Augment Summoning work on an Eidolon when you call it normally?
Answer: No. The wording of Augment Summoning (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/augment-summoning---final) specifically states that it only works on creatures conjured by summon spells. However, it works with the Summon Eidolon spell just fine.
2. Does Augment Summoning work on the Summoner's summon monster spell-like ability?
Answer: Consensus is yes. From Gjorbond on the Pathfinder boards: "There have been several threads on this. If you have a spell like ability, any feat you have that can modify the spell works, with the exception of metamagic feats which require the spell to use a different level spell slot."
3. Can an Biped Eidolon take the Bite evolution twice to get 1 and 1/2 times its Strength bonus to damage?
Answer: Unclear, ask your DM. There was a long debate on this on the Pathfinder boards, and the final conclusion was that the ability was written ambiguously and can be interpreted either way.
4. Why does the description of the feat Summoner's Call describe something totally different from the benefit it gives you?
Answer: It's an editing mistake. The description of Summoner's Call in the Advanced Player's Guide is a leftover from an earlier version of the Eidolon where the Summoner could only call the Eidolon once per day. The benefit text is correct.
5. Do Eidolons get full HP from their first Hit Die?
Answer: No, they get half, like other monsters. Racial HD are never auto-maxed.
6. When and how often can an Eidolon take the Improved Natural Armour evolution?
Answer: This one is fielded by Joshua J. Frost from the Pathfinder boards:
"As for the Improved Natural Armor evolution, that last sentence is unfortunately not very clear. Here's the intent and how you should handle it until the class is finalized:
The intent was that you could take it at level 1, level 10, level 15, and level 20. So it should read something like, "This evolution may be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses, minimum level 1." So you could take it at level 1, but then you'd need ten summoner levels to take it again (level 10), 15 summoner levels to take it a third time, and 20 summoner levels to take it a fourth time.
Hope this helps!"
7. Does an Eidolon using natural attacks get an extra attack from Haste?
Answer: Unclear. The rules quite specifically say no. On the other hand, James Jacobs from the PF boards says yes. Ask your DM.
8. Do Summoners need to take a full-round-action to use metamagic?
Answer: Oddly, no. If you read the description of metamagic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats) in the Pathfinder SRD, Summoners aren't listed as one of the classes that need to take extra time to use metamagic. The same applies to metamagic rods (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rods/metamagic-rods). Probably just an editing mistake, though.
9. Does an Eidolon get summoned with gear or without?
Answer: The rules don't spell it out, but the general rule on teleportation/planar travel effects is that a creature's equipment gets brought along with it. Several creatures on the summon monster list are statted out with e.g. magical weapons, so it can be assumed that an Eidolon gets summoned with gear included.
bartman
2011-01-23, 11:32 AM
Always found the summoner an interesting class, never played it yet, this should come in very handy if I ever do.
Can you resize the picture so it does not stretch the screen so much?
Always found the summoner an interesting class, never played it yet, this should come in very handy if I ever do.
Can you resize the picture so it does not stretch the screen so much?
Several of the pictures I'm planning to use are 800x600. Unfortunately my technical expertise with images isn't great, so if anyone could suggest a simple way to shrink them by 20% or so, that would be handy. :)
Introduction, Roles, and Strengths & Weaknesses are up.
grarrrg
2011-01-23, 11:59 AM
anyone could suggest a simple way to shrink them by 20% or so, that would be handy. :)
MS Paint, Toolbar > Image > Resize/Skew > enter % > save.
MS Paint, Toolbar > Image > Resize/Skew > enter % > save.
OK. Would need a place to upload the images to afterwards, though.
Races and Abilities are up. 25% done!
Techsmart
2011-01-23, 12:13 PM
photobucket is easy, and free (at least, last time i used it, first x Mb were free, more than enough for a handful of pics).
I just recently saw the summoner class for pathfinder, and fell in love with it. Good to see other people are interested in it as well.
Photos resized. I'll start on Skills and Feats now.
grarrrg
2011-01-23, 12:31 PM
A few notes about the races:
Half-Elf: Should be bumped up a notch.
"Arcane Training" lets you trade away you're "2 favored class" for "1 favored Arcane" and nets you a 1 level bonus on spell trigger/completion usage.
"Dual Minded" trades away the "Skill Focus" feat for, essentially, "Iron Will", this allows you to REALLY dump Wis.
And they can trade in their Favored Class bonus for extra Eidolon points (albiet only 1/4 a point per level)
May also want to throw in a blurb about 'alternate roles'.
Granted your Eidolon is going to be a melee beatstick, and you're probably going to be slinging Buffs and whatnot. But what about low levels when you don't have the spell slots? Melee Flanker and Ranged Support are your options, Halfling and Elves make great temp-archers, and a Gnome with the Con boost and small-size AC bonus makes a decent Flank buddy.
More PF approved races, while they are not in the APG, they are on the PFSRD.
Half-Ogre (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/half-ogre), makes a better Summoner than you'd think, and a GREAT Flank-Buddy Summoner at that, +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis. NO Cha penalty.
Ratkin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/ratkin), about the same as the Elf, same stat bonuses, different penalty.
Saurian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/saurian), almost perfect stats, +2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Int, a +2 Natural armor bonus, and Medium sized make them a good choice for a flank-type.
I'd rate the Half-Ogre as "Good" if going flank-type, "Okay" if not.
Saurians are borderline "Exellent", but definately "Good", could use more useful racial traits, but 3rd party, what are you going to do.
Ratkin "Meh".
A few notes about the races:
Half-Elf: Should be bumped up a notch.
"Arcane Training" lets you trade away you're "2 favored class" for "1 favored Arcane" and nets you a 1 level bonus on spell trigger/completion usage.
"Dual Minded" trades away the "Skill Focus" feat for, essentially, "Iron Will", this allows you to REALLY dump Wis.
And they can trade in their Favored Class bonus for extra Eidolon points (albiet only 1/4 a point per level)
Hmm, could be useful. Page refs?
I'll take a look at the races, too.
senrath
2011-01-23, 12:52 PM
All three of those are on page 17 of the APG.
Skills are done, and grarrrg's review of the non-core PF races has been included.
Feats are done. Next up will be Class Features and then Eidolons (finally!)
Thefurmonger
2011-01-23, 04:49 PM
Thanks Saph, I have been looking for a Summoner Handbook for a while now.
This is looking really good already.
Cool, glad you like it!
Aaaand, class features are done. Halfway there.
Posted a link on the Paizo boards, and getting a few bits of helpful feedback there. Several other posters have mentioned that they think the +1/4 evolution point bonus of the Half-Elf is enough to make it better than Human as a race choice.
OK, I'm going to be covering the Spells section next, probably tomorrow. I'm leaving Eidolons for last since they're the most complicated.
I've had several suggestions for Eidolon builds, so if you'd like me to include them in the handbook, please submit them either in this thread or by PM, and I'll credit you with them. Use the following format:
<Eidolon Name> (Xth Level)
Form: <quadruped, biped, serpentine>
AC:
Initiative:
Speed:
Ability Scores: <Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha>
Skills: <Skill Name> +X, <Skill Name> +Y, etc
Feats: X (1st), Y (3rd), etc
Evolutions (base): <determined by your base form>
Evolutions (extra): <list all here>
Attack Routine: Bite +X (1dY+Z) and 2 claws +X (1dY+Z) and ... etc.
Notes: <description and anything that needs explaining>
The baseline levels I'm going to be using are 1st, 5th, and 10th-level, so build to one of those levels (or all three if you really think your build's that good).
Don't include items, buff spells, or other situational bonuses, as all summoners use those - the idea's to do a comparison. (Every eidolon's going to have Mage Armour, so there's no need to include it in your statblock.)
grarrrg
2011-01-24, 11:49 AM
Here's a thought before you get too much farther.
Don't list every option. Only list the good ones, and the "traps" (the ones that look good but aren't)
It'll save some time and work.
subject42
2011-01-24, 03:11 PM
I noticed that you're saying 3.P in the thread title. Does that mean that you're eventually going to include 3.5 feats and such. If so, where would versatile spellcaster fall for a summoner?
Rasman
2011-01-24, 05:07 PM
can't say I'm not excited about this...handbooks are handy
Here's a thought before you get too much farther.
Don't list every option. Only list the good ones, and the "traps" (the ones that look good but aren't)
It'll save some time and work.
That was my thinking, at least for the eidolons. There are WAY too many eidolon combinations for me to review all of them, so I was thinking of listing them as 'packages' of evolutions and feats.
I noticed that you're saying 3.P in the thread title. Does that mean that you're eventually going to include 3.5 feats and such. If so, where would versatile spellcaster fall for a summoner?
At the moment I've got my hands full just doing the PF-unique stuff. There are several 3.5 summoning handbooks out there, so I might just link to those and call it a day.
The first part of the Spells section is up, including cantrips and 1st-level spells.
Edit: Also added an Alternate Builds section, on grarrrg's suggestion. Half-Elf has been upgraded to excellent, and a discussion on Half-Elf vs Human has been included.
Spells section is now complete, with all spells rated!
Next up, Eidolons.
grarrrg
2011-01-25, 05:53 PM
A few typos/corrections/suggestions:
Half-Elf "points than than normal" duplicate than.
"Rejuvinate Eidolon" line of spells, compare to the "Cure X Wounds" line. "Cure X" can be used on anyone, OR to harm undead. Cure Light only heals _1_ less point than Lesser, Cure Serious heals 3 less on average than 'Rejuve-medium'. The closest equivalent to Greater is "Breath of Life", which again, is only worse by 5 hp.
If UMD is an option DEFINATELY get a Wand of Cure X instead.
Spells section:
Point out that even though the Summoner "only" have access to 6th Levels of spells, that most of the spells on the Summoner list are 'discounted' versus the Wizard list.
For example:
Most 3rd Level Sum-Spells are 3rd or 4th on the Wiz list.
Most 4th Level Sum-Spells are 5th or 6th on the Wiz list.
Most 5th Level Sum-Spells are 6th or 7th on the Wiz list.
and Most 6th Level Sum-Spells are 8th or 9th on the Wiz list.
The main thing the Summoner lacks is spell slots.
Maybe include a brief blurb on each of the Summoner Specific Spells
Evolution Surge -Line
Purified Calling
Rejuvenate Eidolon -Line
Summon Eidolon
Transmogrify
Unfetter
Level 3 Summoner spells,
You have "Rejuvinate Eidolon, Lesser" should be 'standard'.
Level 6 Spells
Have "Charm Monster" listed, should be "Charm Monster, Mass"
Akal Saris
2011-01-25, 05:57 PM
Glad to see you making a new handbook, Saph! It looks quite nice so far. :smallsmile:
I started on a handbook for the summoner during the beta, but the final version really disappointed me and I deleted my notes. I still feel like the eidolon's rules are needlessly complicated and the inability to simultaneously use your eidolon and your summoned monster SLA was a major design mistake. But enough on that.
A suggested addition for equipment:
Varisian idol (Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide, I've seen it elsewhere as well): A 50g optional component that adds +2 HP/HD for summoned monsters from SM and SNA.
Also, for those playing in the Pathfinder Society or using their material, the Cheliax traits are excellent for a summoner. They're free online, I've listed the relevant ones below.
Cheliax Traits
Devil’s Mark (Cheliax Faction): You bear the stain of a
higher fiend upon you and any evil creature who sees it
may think twice before crossing you. You gain a +2 trait
bonus on all Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense
Motive checks when dealing with outsiders of the evil
subtype.
Fiendish Presence (Cheliax Faction): Your family
routinely held court with pit fiends and erinyes when you
were a child and, as a result, you learned to manipulate
people better than most. You gain a +1 trait bonus on
Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks. One of these skills
(your choice) is always a class skill for you.
Master of Pentacles (Cheliax Faction): Your many years
spent studying the art of summoning has given you a
unique knowledge of these subtle and complicated arts.
Once per day, when casting a spell of the Conjuration
school, you are at +2 caster level when determining the
duration of the spell.
Typos corrected: thanks for that.
On the Rejuv/CLW thing: yeah, CLW is better. The main advantage of Rejuvenate Eidolon is that it's on your spell list, meaning you don't have to hit a DC 20 UMD check, which can be tricky at low levels.
Akal: I read your posts on Summoners, yes. :) I think the class is still workable, though - I'll put in an explanation once I get to summons. The Varisian idol sounds good.
Eidolons section is under way! Currently about 2/3 done, including general advice, feats, and the first three Eidolon Packages.
grarrrg
2011-01-26, 11:09 AM
Not to be nitpicky (ok, it's nitpicky), but you missed the "than than" under Half-elf.
The rest is looking pretty good.
Not to be nitpicky (ok, it's nitpicky), but you missed the "than than" under Half-elf.
Thanks. Corrected.
Quirinus_Obsidian
2011-01-26, 11:57 AM
Thank you Saph for putting in this hard work :smile::smile::smile:
Glad it's helpful! :smallsmile: I'll be out for the rest of the day, so the rest of the Eidolons section will have to wait till tomorrow.
Eidolons section is done! Includes a general guide to eidolons, natural attacks, and feats, a weapon vs. natural weapon comparison, 7 different Eidolon packages, some 1st-level suggestions, and the 10th-level "Killer Centaur" example build.
Summoned Monsters section is done!
I didn't bother to do a full review of all the options here, partly because they play a secondary role to your Eidolon, and partly because the work's already been done by other guides.
Blackhorse
2011-01-28, 05:42 PM
The pouncer (1st level sample eidolon build) chose imp natural armor. It says in the description it can only be taken once every five levels. I read that as being at least level 5 to grab it, or am I mistaken?
Otherwise a good handbook, and I'll be sure to use some of it for my upcoming summoner this weekend :)
By the rules, I think you're right. I'm pretty sure this is an error - all the other 1-point abilities can be taken at 1st-level, and everything with a level requirement has it stated clearly. Unfortunately, the Summoner class wasn't edited terribly well. I'll add a note.
Edit: written by Joshua Frost, the PF society rules guy.
"As for the Improved Natural Armor evolution, that last sentence is unfortunately not very clear. Here's the intent and how you should handle it until the class is finalized:
The intent was that you could take it at level 1, level 10, level 15, and level 20. So it should read something like, "This evolution may be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses, minimum level 1." So you could take it at level 1, but then you'd need ten summoner levels to take it again (level 10), 15 summoner levels to take it a third time, and 20 summoner levels to take it a fourth time.
Hope this helps!"
FAQ section has been added. Ask any additional questions below.
The Gilded Duke
2011-01-30, 11:37 PM
After reading the handbook decided to give Summoner's another look. When looking over the Eidolon traits I noticed the one point trait "Skilled". Gives a +8 racial bonus to one skill. The Eidolon class skills are pretty flexible at the start, so this opens a lot of ways to get a very focused skill monkey at low levels.
Some possible builds that come to mind:
Humanoid with improved stat Charisma, and improved skill intimidate. Pick up weapon focus claw first level, and then Dazzling Display at 3rd level. I think it would do better then a similar build using half elf or half orc and bard.
Also at first level, could have a hard to beat linguistics build for opposed forgery checks. Skill Focus Linguistics, improved skill linguistics, improved stat intelligence.
It looks like there is no diplomacy as a full round action option in Pathfinder, which might nerf a diplomancer build.
Is there anyway to get trapfinding from a feat?
Is there anyway to get trapfinding from a feat?
No, but you don't really need it. In Pathfinder, any class can find normal or magic traps regardless of the DC. Trapfinding just gives you a bonus (and lets you use Disable Device on traps that you otherwise couldn't apply it to).
Greenish
2011-01-31, 01:01 PM
Is there anyway to get trapfinding from a feat?For 3.5, you can take Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment for Kobold Domain.
Items are done and handbook is officially finished!
I'll be going over the handbook for a few more days, so if you want to submit any extra suggestions, material, etc, now's the time.
Thefurmonger
2011-01-31, 03:53 PM
Thanks again Saph. It looks great.
So whats the next project in the works? Alchemist's Handbook next?
Thanks again Saph. It looks great.
So whats the next project in the works? Alchemist's Handbook next?
Heh. I've got a bunch of exams coming up and some writing contracts too, so I'm going to have my hands full with work for a while. We'll see!
shogahin
2011-02-10, 10:24 AM
Hey Saph, Love the summoner book.. Just a slight change needed tho.
The Eidolon Quadruped Free evolutions are as follows:
Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2).
No pounce.
I am presently playing a Gnome summoner with a quadruped. I am doing the mounted-lance thing. I based it off the muppet in the movie Labyrinth. Course, my eidolon isn't a coward like the dog.. Just a Gnome paladin wanna-be... its fun. And with the Eidolon being intelligent, we get into debates on things I should do and not. :smallbiggrin:
Cieyrin
2011-02-12, 01:40 PM
Nice guide, here, Saph. I would like to point out something, though. With the Damage Reduction evolution, it's DR/Alignment, not DR/Magic, so it's much more resilient than you're giving it credit for.
Oterisk
2011-02-12, 02:35 PM
Hey, I saw your handbook and I have just a couple suggestions.
I have done some exploration of some summoner multi-class options. I have a thread in the Pathfinder forums that might be interesting to you. Take a look if you like. (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/advice/summonerAsALevelDip&page=1&source=search#0)
Four levels of Summoner is a good cut off, because you can get decent skill bonuses, 2nd level spells (haste), the shield ally power, and with the Magical Knack trait, qualify for the really good crafting feats, such as Wondrous Item, Wand and Arms and Armor. This particular route is great for rogues and pretty much any full BAB class. You can get by with just a 12-14 Cha too, so it doesn't impact your other statistics.
On the flip side, a summoner with a level in Barbarian is good if you go flanking buddy, or two levels in Paladin can grant you minor healing and major bonuses to saves. Of course these are only decent options if you are guaranteed never to make level 20, but since that doesn't happen a whole lot, it is definitely worth consideration, especially in Pathfinder Society play, where 12 is the cut off, and you get your highest level spells at 10.
Dragon Disciple is also a decent prestige class for combat oriented Summoners. Four levels gives them +4 to str, three primary natural attacks (one at x1.5 str), +2 natural armor, and a minor breath weapon for -1 caster level, and -4 Eidolon level. Its a fantastic option if your DM lets you apply Boon Companion to your Eidolon, even though its normally illegal.
I worked up a 1Barb/4Summ/10DD/5Summ build that gets 6th level spells at level 20, and gets Form of the Dragon II with a small eidolon (looks like a kobold) who rides him, hides, and uses wands every round starting at character level 5. For less spells and more damage, the 4Barb/1Summ/4DD/11Barb is good, especially if you go Invulnerable Rager. Love that damage resistance!
Anyway, I hope that my ramblings were helpful to you. This is truly a versatile class, and an underrated one in my estimation. Thanks for all the work you put into this.
Reverent-One
2011-02-12, 05:25 PM
Saph, I want to thank you for the work you put into this and the Pathfinder handbook. I'll be playing in a Summoner in a Pathfinder game shortly and both of these have come in useful (even if I do plan on ignoring your advice on some matters :smallwink:).
Thanks for the feedback! Incorporated some of the corrections (except the pounce one - couldn't find which post it was referring to).
Cieyrin
2011-02-12, 05:59 PM
Just thought of something. Breath Weapon seems like something you'd want to Evolution Surge, like the various resistances and immunities, so you can tailor it to the circumstances. So, not totally worthless for a sort of nova effect.
shogahin
2011-02-15, 02:05 PM
Thanks for the feedback! Incorporated some of the corrections (except the pounce one - couldn't find which post it was referring to).
Sorry, I made an assumption that you were listing the base forms out of the book (post #6 under Eidolon Base Forms). You had listed the Summoners abilities but you hadn't listed the Eidolons Base form abilities. Got confused there.
shogahin
2011-02-15, 02:20 PM
Me and my GM are having a discussion on the restriction of picking 1 base form. I was wondering if having all 3 forms be available would change the balance of the class with the following caveats in place:
1) As it states in the summoner listings, only 1 eidolon can be active at any time. You can't have an eidolon active and summon one at the same time. You must dismiss your present eidolon and spend a minute to summon a new one.
2) All skills and feats would not change form to form. If you took a feat only the biped could use, you couldn't use it in Quadruped form.
3) Evolutions can be distributed over all 3 forms or to just one. Summoners choice.
Thoughts?
Reverent-One
2011-02-18, 10:13 PM
Throwing out my plan for my Summoner's Eidolon, a Slugger build the focuses on controlling an area through reach, multiple AoOs, and Trip.
Area controller
1st-level:
Form: Biped
AC: 15 (10 Base, +4 NA, +1 Dex) (19 with Mage Armor) (13/17 Enlarged)
CMB: +4 (+5 Enlarged)
CMD: 15
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30’
Ability Scores: Str 16 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
Feats: MWP(Scythe) (1st)
Evolutions (base): Claws, Limbs(arms), Limbs(Legs)
Evolutions (extra): Skilled(Perception) (1), Reach(Weapon/Scythe)(1), NA (1)
Attack Routine: Scythe +4 (2d4+4)
5th-level:
Form: Biped
AC: 20 (10 Base, +4 NA, +4AB (as NA), +2 Dex) (24 with Mage Armor) (17/21 Enlarged)
CMB: +8 (+9 Enlarged)
CMD: 20
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30’
Ability Scores: Str 18 Dex 15 Con 13 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
Feats: MWP(Scythe) (1st), Power Attack (3th)
Evolutions (base): Claws, Limbs(arms), Limbs(Legs)
Evolutions (extra): Skilled(Perception) (1), Reach(Weapon/Scythe)(1), NA (1), Abilty Boost(Dex)(2), Tail (1), Tail Slap(1), Push(Tail) 1
Attack Routine: Scythe +8 (2d4+6), Tail Slap +3 (1d6+2)
10th-level:
Form: Biped
AC: 26 (10 Base, +6 NA, +8AB (as NA), +3 Dex, -1 Size) (30 with Mage Armor)
CMB: +18
CMD: 29
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30’
Ability Scores: Str 28 Dex 16 Con 17 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
Feats: MWP(Scythe) (1st), Power Attack (3rd), Combat Reflexes(6th), Improved Critical(Scythe) (9th)
Evolutions (base): Claws, Limbs(arms), Limbs(Legs)
Evolutions (extra): Skilled(Perception) (1), Reach(Weapon/Scythe)(1), NA (1), Ability Boost(Dex)(2), Tail (1), Tail Slap(1), Push(Tail) (1), Ability Boost(Dex)(2), Large(4)
Attack Routine: Scythe +17/+12 (2d6+13), Tail Slap +15 (1d8+4)
Notes:Attack and Damage don't take PA into account, nor expected stat boosting items (Str and Dex). If I buy/make a +Dex item for the Eidolon and, through play experience, don't feel the need to be able to make more then 3 AoOs, the second Ability Boost(Dex) would be replaced with an extra set of Limbs(Arms) so it can use both its claws and its Scythe in its attack routine.
Tactics: Scythe + reach = trip attempts without AoOs even without Improved Trip. Tail Slap with push is used to control enemy's positions, and to a make a full attack result in an enemy lying prone non-adjacent to the Eidolon but still within the Eidolon's reach.
Thoughts and criticisms welcome.
DThomassen
2011-03-24, 06:07 PM
The "Killer Centaur"'s numbers are not quite right. The Bite Claws will be secondary attacks, not primary, so -5 to hit and half strength damage.
I ran the numbers, with +1 Great Sword, Belt of Strength +2, Greater Magic Fang (+1 to all Natural weapons) and the average damage, assuming Haste and Pounce, is 126 hp - so get the Archer to soften the target up first and that Fire Giant is going down. (Damage Corrected from original number of 131, I have improved the spreadsheet that I was using.)
Against a creature with damage reduction that cannot be overcome by the setup used (For Killer Centaur that is all of them except /Magic) the damage is reduced to 87vs 5/, 458 vs 10/ & 42 vs 15/ (Very approximate numbers for that)
Xykal
2011-03-29, 07:09 PM
What do you guys think about this build:
Stat priorities are CHA > STR > CON > DEX
Human Summoner with a 1 lvl dip in Fighter
LVL Class --- Feat
1 -- Sum 1 -- Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack
2 -- Ftr 1 --- Spirited Charge
3 -- Sum 2 -- Weapon Focus: lance
4 -- Sum 3
5 -- Sum 4 -- Dazzling Display
The 1 lvl dip in fighter takes care of the weapon proficiency for the lance, allows you to wear a mithril breastplate without ASF, and provides the extra feat the build needs to be decent by lvl 2. You'll have to enlarge person your eidolon in order to ride him in combat, so take that as one of your 2 first level spells.
You start off decent at lvl 1 and very deadly at lvl 2. WF + Dazzling Display gives you something to do after you've buffed and charged. Take a full round action to demoralize all enemies within 30'. Your high charisma makes you great at this right off the bat. Personally I would take Spell Focus (conjuration) at 7th and Augment Summoning at 9th, but there's no reason you couldn't take Intimidating Prowess, Skill Focus (Intimidate), and / or Persuasive to make you really quite good at demoralizing your enemies.
NamelessNPC
2011-03-31, 11:21 PM
If you want to charge so often, maybe you should pick up Power Attack and maybe Furious Focus (first attack of your turn doesn't have the PA penalty)
The "Killer Centaur"'s numbers are not quite right. The Bite Claws will be secondary attacks, not primary, so -5 to hit and half strength damage.
Yup, that's already factored in. Damage is dice +10 (for a Strength of 30) divided by 2 (for secondary attack) then +1 for magic, for a total damage bonus of +6 for each claw and bite. Multiattack brings the attack penalty down to only -2, for a total attack bonus of +16 each.
DThomassen
2011-04-04, 07:35 PM
Wow, how did I miss that Feat. The problem I now have is that I can make Eidolons that outclass the fighter for most opponents without damage reduction. Yes the fighter can do fancy stuff like disarm and sunder, but for straight damage per round the Eidolon wins. (Yes it has less hit points, but that only counts if the summoner doesn't give up his to keep the eidolon in the fight. At the end of the fight the damage will still need healing no matter who took it).
Great Handbook, thanks for all your hard work.
Cieyrin
2011-04-05, 02:20 PM
Wow, how did I miss that Feat. The problem I now have is that I can make Eidolons that outclass the fighter for most opponents without damage reduction. Yes the fighter can do fancy stuff like disarm and sunder, but for straight damage per round the Eidolon wins. (Yes it has less hit points, but that only counts if the summoner doesn't give up his to keep the eidolon in the fight. At the end of the fight the damage will still need healing no matter who took it).
Great Handbook, thanks for all your hard work.
I don't really see that as a problem, really, as the eidolon has enough restrictions on it to balance it out, I think. I mean, playing a summoner kinda makes it so you have to equip 2 characters, which is a headache in and of itself, what with having to share item slots and all. Also, if you're having trouble seeing your fighter keep up damagewise, it probably means you haven't optimized enough. :smallwink:
PinkysBrain
2011-04-05, 02:58 PM
The Eidolon has a +8 strength bonus from size long before the fighter can even afford one of those 1/day polymorph armours (and because the spells were nerfed to self only the wizard can't even help him out any more with that). The Eidolon can also get +16, giving him more strength than the fighter can ever get.
The Eidolon can get pounce at level 1 while the fighter has to wait till level 10 before he can move and full attack.
The Eidolon can get extra arms to use a shield without penalty.
Also the Summoner's spell list has lots of good spells, he is simply not a bad caster.
The Summoner simply is not balanced with the fighter in the remotest, he gets a fighter as a pet.
Here are a list of problems and solutions I put together for the Eidolon :
- pounce, too powerful.
Solution : change so you can attack with 2 natural weapon attacks at the end of a charge.
- claws, they are the only weapons which can trigger rend and by getting as many as possible you can concentrate feats and other weapons specific boosts in one place.
Solution : can only be put on arms, together with the next one.
- limbs, having more than 2 arms is incredibly powerful, there is multiweapon fighting abuse, you can wield a two handed weapon and a shield, etc etc.
Solution : can only get arms 1 time (also makes the claws+rend combo a little less of a no brainer).
- pincers, underpowered with above changes.
Solution : become primary attacks
- slam, underpowered period.
Solution : you get two slam attacks, not one.
- tail slap, underpowered period.
Solution : roll tail and tail slap into one 1 point evolution.
- too bloody many primary natural attacks.
Solution : Only bite, claws, pincers, slams and rake remain primary.
- too much strength.
Solution : +4 and +8 bonuses from size increases.
Dax the monk
2011-04-06, 12:06 AM
So as the spell enlarge person reads
"This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature's size category to the next larger one."
Can I take my eidolon to gargantuan?
DThomassen
2011-04-08, 07:24 PM
Only if cast by the Summoner. Not sure about from Scrolls, Wands, Rings, etc. (But he only gets 2 more strength).
DropKickBananas
2011-04-09, 11:40 AM
Wow this is pretty cool, makes me want to learn more about Pathfinder
Dax the monk
2011-04-09, 04:32 PM
He may only get 2 str but every attack gets extra dice for size and more reach
InVinoVeritas
2011-04-09, 07:41 PM
A couple of feats that might be of interest in some Summoner builds:
A Stealth Summoner might appreciate Go Unnoticed.
A dedicated buffer might do well with SF:Transmutation, and Tenacious Transmutation.
Thoughts?
CTrees
2011-04-11, 01:24 PM
Quick question on Rend - it's written as "Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage." This follows the creatures in the Bestiary with Rend, no problem. However, if an eidolon has, say... six claw attacks? The evolution isn't written as "whenever the eidolon makes two or more successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round" and there's no notation that it's only once a round, or once per target per round, any which would be clear and unambiguous.
So, say you make your six claw attacks. First hits, second hits, Rend triggers, third misses, fourth and fifth hit... well that's another instance of two successful claw attacks... But getting several rends per turn, potentially, just feels a little wrong.
Also, combat reflexes and a target doing multiple things in a round on its turn which would provoke AoOs - you could potentially have two claws hit in that one round, even though it isn't on the eidolon's action... would that count for Rend, also?
Quick question on Rend - it's written as "Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage." This follows the creatures in the Bestiary with Rend, no problem. However, if an eidolon has, say... six claw attacks? The evolution isn't written as "whenever the eidolon makes two or more successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round" and there's no notation that it's only once a round, or once per target per round, any which would be clear and unambiguous.
So, say you make your six claw attacks. First hits, second hits, Rend triggers, third misses, fourth and fifth hit... well that's another instance of two successful claw attacks... But getting several rends per turn, potentially, just feels a little wrong.
Also, combat reflexes and a target doing multiple things in a round on its turn which would provoke AoOs - you could potentially have two claws hit in that one round, even though it isn't on the eidolon's action... would that count for Rend, also?
I suspect not. Rend just says that it triggers when you make two successful claw attacks against the same target in one round. So if you hit twice with claws, you've made two successful claw attacks, so this triggers rend. If you score a third hit, you've made three successful claw attacks - this doesn't trigger anything special, so no rend.
You could probably interpret it differently, but this seems the most sensible way. Note, though, that as long as you've got enough claws, you can do Rend damage to more than one target, as long as you hit each target at least two times each.
garydoho
2011-04-18, 09:55 AM
I have a question about the 4th level spell Purified Calling:
"Your eidolon is restored to full health when you summon it. Upon casting this spell, you must immediately begin the ritual to summon your eidolon. Upon completion of the ritual, your eidolon appears at full hit points and without any damage or penalties to its ability scores, regardless of its previous condition. In addition, any temporary negative conditions affecting your eidolon are immediately removed. Permanent conditions and ability drain are not affected by this spell."
When I first read this, it seemed to me that "dead" should be one of the conditions removed - Which would make Purified Calling a pretty good spell. However, the section on summoning says that:
"If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day"
So, should Purified Calling be able to revive a dead eidolon on the same day it died?
On a related note, when summoning an eidolon using the 3rd level "Summon Eidolon" spell, should the eidolon appear at full HP or the HP it had when it was last dismissed?
Thanks
grarrrg
2011-04-18, 10:29 AM
Note: I'm mostly guessing, haven't seen anything official.
Purified Calling:
"....regardless of its previous condition. In addition, any temporary negative conditions affecting your eidolon are immediately removed. Permanent conditions and ability drain are not affected by this spell."
...
"If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day"
I'd rule that dead counts as "Permanent conditions and ability drain are not affected by this spell.", and you're out of luck for the rest of the day. Granted, your Eidolon is only 'temporarily' dead.
On the other hand, in order for the spell to work you still have to preform the 1-minute Eidolon Summoning Ritual, so it's not like you can have it pop back in the middle of combat.
I'd still rule dead=gone though
On a related note, when summoning an eidolon using the 3rd level "Summon Eidolon" spell, should the eidolon appear at full HP or the HP it had when it was last dismissed?
Summon Eidolon says at the end "This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage." Eidolons are only returned by damage if they 'died' with a negative HP score. And being able to summon a Dead Eidolon would be pretty worthless.
The intent of the spell seems to be "pretend your Eidolon was a normal, summonable creature". So I'd say it's "not really your Eidolon", just a thing that looks like it, and at the end of the spells duration it goes "poof".
Purified calling is (currently) a judgement call. I'd say Summon Eidolon gives it full hp because it's "no really your Eidolon".
Conkea
2011-04-20, 06:27 PM
First I would like to thank you for this wonderful guide and it has really inspired me to play a summoner as soon as i get the chance :)
Secondly, I stumbled upon Advanced Feats: Summoner's Circle and i was wondering if you (or anyone else for that matter) has had a chance to read it yet? I personally havent, but seeing how it's dedicated to this class there's bound to be some good stuff in there I'd assume.
shogahin
2011-04-21, 08:32 AM
First I would like to thank you for this wonderful guide and it has really inspired me to play a summoner as soon as i get the chance :)
Secondly, I stumbled upon Advanced Feats: Summoner's Circle and i was wondering if you (or anyone else for that matter) has had a chance to read it yet? I personally havent, but seeing how it's dedicated to this class there's bound to be some good stuff in there I'd assume.
I have read it. My DM has it. Its not for the Summoner class per se. Its a summoning guide. All the critters and new feats for those classes that can specialize in summoning. Summon Monster, summon Natures ally....etc.
Very good resource I would say. It gives you some new directions to walk a summoning class down. It has new feats that build off PF feats.
Goober4473
2011-04-21, 12:46 PM
Has anyone considered making a skill monkey eidolon, and using summon monster for combat?
Here's my concept:
Give the Eidolon Use Magic Device, Spellcraft, Sleight of Hand, and Disable Device as it's 4 bonus class skills. With +1 skill rank per level from the human or halfling alternate favorite class bonuses, adding the +1 at 4HD to Int, and giving it +2 Int as an ability boost, You can max 7 skills: the four above, Perception, Stealth, and Sense Motive. Make sure to grab Linguistics, Spellcraft, and UMD for yourself.
You can get +8 to any of these, including your own skills once you get Aspect.
Further, if you're using 3.5 material, have the eidolon grab Shape Soulmeld twice, for Mage's Spectacles (+4 Decipher Script [so Linguistics], Spellcraft, and UMD, +2 per essentia) and Theft Gloves (+2 to Disable Device and Sleight of Hand, +2 per essentia), Open Least Chakra for Hands (Theft Gloves grant Trapfinding), and Bonus Essentia for 2 essentia to play with.
At 10th level, the eidolon could easily have +27 to UMD (8 ranks, +3 class skill, +8 racial, +8 insight), more with a few more tricks (boost Cha, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, Skill Focus), and similarly absurd bonuses to the standard skill monkey array. Plus you can have +8 to Spellcraft and UMD yourself (leaving you with +26 UMD as well with no feat investment, assuming +5 from Cha).
Even without Incarnum, skills in the 20s are easy.
Probably not the best build, but I think it's pretty neat.
[Edit]: Fixed my math.
Cartigan
2011-04-21, 12:58 PM
Has anyone considered making a skill monkey eidolon, and using summon monster for combat?
If by "Using summon monster for combat" you mean the spell, then you would be better off with a Conjurer Wizard with Leadership. You can't use the Eidolon and the class ability summon monster at the same time (One of Paizo's half-assed balancing fixes when they couldn't figure out how to hell to balance the Eidolon [and they still never realized the real problem before going to print])
And assuming Incarnum in the original analysis is a bad idea. Incarnum is not in Pathfinder if I recall correctly so at best it's a secondary bonus if you are mixing 3.5 and Pathfinder AND including Incarnum.
Goober4473
2011-04-21, 01:11 PM
If by "Using summon monster for combat" you mean the spell, then you would be better off with a Conjurer Wizard with Leadership. You can't use the Eidolon and the class ability summon monster at the same time (One of Paizo's half-assed balancing fixes when they couldn't figure out how to hell to balance the Eidolon [and they still never realized the real problem before going to print])
And assuming Incarnum in the original analysis is a bad idea. Incarnum is not in Pathfinder if I recall correctly so at best it's a secondary bonus if you are mixing 3.5 and Pathfinder AND including Incarnum.
Valid points. Just a thought.
I'm pretty sure a Wizard is just better than a Summoner though. There's also a good chance of DMs not allowing Leadership. What if we're assuming around tier 3, no Leadership? Is it workable with just Pathfinder? How about with 3.P?
Cartigan
2011-04-21, 01:19 PM
Valid points. Just a thought.
I'm pretty sure a Wizard is just better than a Summoner though. There's also a good chance of DMs not allowing Leadership. What if we're assuming around tier 3, no Leadership? Is it workable with just Pathfinder? How about with 3.P?
Well you still can't run your Eidolon as skill monkey and use your class summoning abilities.
Though you still could run your spells and an Eidolon skill monkey, that's plausible if not hilarious - "How does a snake pick locks? :smallconfused:"
Goober4473
2011-04-21, 01:31 PM
Well you still can't run your Eidolon as skill monkey and use your class summoning abilities.
Though you still could run your spells and an Eidolon skill monkey, that's plausible if not hilarious - "How does a snake pick locks? :smallconfused:"
Haha, I was thinking serpent. :smallcool:
My idea was to keep the eidolon around for non-combat, then dismiss it pre-combat, or once combat breaks out. Maybe find something useful for it to do if I can't spare the Standard action, like flank buddying, tanking, stealing stuff from enemies with an absurdly high Sleight of Hand, or of course using wands/scrolls with it's massive UMD.
My other idea for the character was to make the summoner itself a buffer and item crafterv (+8 to Spellcraft? Yes please), so handing the eidolon wands of buff spells could possibly work for combat.
Cartigan
2011-04-21, 01:40 PM
Haha, I was thinking serpent. :smallcool:
My idea was to keep the eidolon around for non-combat, then dismiss it pre-combat, or once combat breaks out. Maybe find something useful for it to do if I can't spare the Standard action, like flank buddying, tanking, stealing stuff from enemies with an absurdly high Sleight of Hand, or of course using wands/scrolls with it's massive UMD.
My other idea for the character was to make the summoner itself a buffer and item crafterv (+8 to Spellcraft? Yes please), so handing the eidolon wands of buff spells could possibly work for combat.
I didn't realize you could dismiss and resummon the Eidolon the same day. I guess that would work then.
shogahin
2011-04-22, 07:36 AM
I didn't realize you could dismiss and resummon the Eidolon the same day. I guess that would work then.
you can't. If you summon an Eidolon that day then dismiss it, you can't bring it back without using the Summon Eidolon spell. Now, if your like me, then your Eidolon is out all the time, 24x7 just in case he dies or is dismissed I can spend the minute to summon him.
I built my eidolon as a quadruped. I am a gnome.. I pretty much gave him those skills I don't normally take. i.e.. climb, swim..etc. and I am almost always riding him. He is medium so I can dungeon crawl and his speed is double mine. I gave him these evolutions:
4th level eidolon
mount
improved damage (bite)
reach (bite)
limbs (arms)
claws
pounce
I am waiting to do the whole charge/pounce attack. it will be sweet but not my primary focus. I am working on getting my eidolon to be able to do AoO from as far away as possible.
btw, has anyone defined the Reach evolution on if you can take that multiple times with the same attack? i.e... reach x2 (bite)
Reverent-One
2011-04-22, 08:40 AM
you can't. If you summon an Eidolon that day then dismiss it, you can't bring it back without using the Summon Eidolon spell. Now, if your like me, then your Eidolon is out all the time, 24x7 just in case he dies or is dismissed I can spend the minute to summon him.
Incorrect, you can only not re-summon him through normal means if he dies, not if he's dismissed. Additionally, your Eidolon cannot be out 24x7, as it is dimissed whenever you're asleep, and if he's dies, he can't be resummoned until the following day, period.
Infernalbargain
2011-04-22, 04:47 PM
Incorrect, you can only not re-summon him through normal means if he dies, not if he's dismissed. Additionally, your Eidolon cannot be out 24x7, as it is dimissed whenever you're asleep, and if he's dies, he can't be resummoned until the following day, period.
If you cast this spell while your eidolon is already on your plane, this spell has no effect. This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage.
[/nitpick]
When I first read this, it seemed to me that "dead" should be one of the conditions removed - Which would make Purified Calling a pretty good spell. However, the section on summoning says that:
Considering the fact that the second level spell allows you to get it back from death, I'd imagine that Purified calling is supposed to be able to bring it back. Given the fact that the eidolon is readily resummonable after death, it's fair to say that death isn't that permanent of a condition in these regards.
Reverent-One
2011-04-22, 05:53 PM
[/nitpick]
I was referring through the normal 1 minute means shogahin was referring to, which I see was not clear.
shogahin
2011-04-23, 09:10 AM
Incorrect, you can only not re-summon him through normal means if he dies, not if he's dismissed. Additionally, your Eidolon cannot be out 24x7, as it is dimissed whenever you're asleep, and if he's dies, he can't be resummoned until the following day, period.
oh, my error on several points. I sometimes don't stop and consider some of the other effects and how they relate.
If the eidolon dies, he can't be resummoned using the Summoner class ability but he could be summoned by the summon eidolon spell.
If the eidolon is dismissed he can be resummoned using the Summoner class ability.
I keep forgetting the whole "asleep he is dismissed" thing.
I'm still thinking the Summoner isn't as flexible as he was supposed to be. Heres my thoughts on some changes.
1) allow the Summoner to have all 3 forms available. Only one form at a time. This aspect has always confused me. I have tried getting an answer as the "why" on 1 but I got no responses. The rules cannot be misconstrued or abused on the forms.
2) the Eidolon doesn't go away untill "killed" or dismissed.
Just seems to me that the Summoner is being punished for having the eidolon.
any thought?
balistafreak
2011-04-23, 11:22 AM
I'm still thinking the Summoner isn't as flexible as he was supposed to be.
With all due respect, if you don't find the flexibility of a build-it-yourself extra party member to be sufficient, play a Wizard. Or a Cleric. :smallwink:
The Summoner is strong Tier 3, bordering on Tier 2 due to spell-list level hilarity.
Commentary:
Remember that the eidolon, if killed, "respawns" the next day with half health, although it does not heal naturally. This is awesome. You can have the eidolon kamikaze attack the boss and not feel bad when it dies.
Having all 3 forms available is a minor boost, but runs into flavor issues. It seems strange for your "constant companion" to be mutable at will. Just think if the Eidolon was customizable at any moment - having all 3 forms begins to walk down that road.
Being dismissed while asleep does prevent you from using the eidolon as a night watchman in lieu of yourself, and it does make for irritating moments when you fail a Will save mid-combat and lose your Eidolon because of it. Minor boost, but not an insignificant one.
garydoho
2011-04-24, 01:21 AM
Thanks grarrrg for your answers,
I have another question that I haven't been able to find a answer to. Can the Evolution Surge spells be applied to aspect? Thoughts?
Thanks
shogahin
2011-04-24, 08:07 AM
With all due respect, if you don't find the flexibility of a build-it-yourself extra party member to be sufficient, play a Wizard. Or a Cleric. :smallwink:
The Summoner is strong Tier 3, bordering on Tier 2 due to spell-list level hilarity.
Commentary:
Having all 3 forms available is a minor boost, but runs into flavor issues. It seems strange for your "constant companion" to be mutable at will. Just think if the Eidolon was customizable at any moment - having all 3 forms begins to walk down that road.
Not sure what you mean by "Flavor issues". By Raw you can't have more than 1 eidolon out at a time.. you can't even start the ritual without dismissing your eidolon. then your limited on how many times you can even summon your eidolon per day. and no, you can't summon 1 eidolon type by special ability and another type by summon eidolon spell..
this will just allow a bit more flexibility to the summoner.
grarrrg
2011-04-24, 11:31 AM
Can the Evolution Surge spells be applied to aspect?
(Copy/paste) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner) Aspect
At 10th level, a summoner can divert up to 2 points from his eidolon’s evolution pool to add evolutions to himself. He cannot select any evolution that the eidolon could not possess, and he must be able to meet the requirements as well. He cannot select the ability increase evolution through this ability. Any points spent in this way are taken from the eidolon’s evolution pool (reducing the total number available to the eidolon). The summoner can change the evolutions he receives from these points any time he can change the eidolon’s evolutions.
Evolution Surge
You can grant the eidolon any evolution whose total cost does not exceed 2 evolution points. You may only grant one evolution with this spell, even if that evolution can be taken multiple times.
Evolution Surge specifically targets the Eidolon, and grants them any ONE evolution worth up to 2 points (more points/evolutions Lesser>normal>Greater).
The Surge spells grant Evolutions NOT Evolution Points, so I would say they have no effect on Aspect, because there are no Points actually being added. Also, you are not changing the Eidolons evolutions, so Aspect will not let you reshuffle the points spent on yourself.
On a related note Transmogrify explicitly works with Aspect, but, again, since Surge does not grant actual points you will not be able to effect Surge granted abilities (you may be able to talk your DM into letting you change your Surge ability for a different Surge ability though).
Just had an evil thought. NOTE: The following (possibly) works by RAW, but any sane DM will say NO.
Use Evolution Surge to give your Eidolon an ability (let's say "Tail"), then use Transmogrify to shuffle your points around and take an ability related to the first one (let's say "Sting" or "Tail Slap").
After X minutes your Eidolon loses the Surge granted ability, but retains the Transmogrified abilities.
Thus it now has Tail attacks, but no actual Tail (or Wing Buffet with no Wings, or...)
garydoho
2011-04-26, 07:37 PM
(Copy/paste) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner) Just had an evil thought. NOTE: The following (possibly) works by RAW, but any sane DM will say NO.
Use Evolution Surge to give your Eidolon an ability (let's say "Tail"), then use Transmogrify to shuffle your points around and take an ability related to the first one (let's say "Sting" or "Tail Slap").
After X minutes your Eidolon loses the Surge granted ability, but retains the Transmogrified abilities.
Thus it now has Tail attacks, but no actual Tail (or Wing Buffet with no Wings, or...)
There may still be an issue with that. The casting time for Transmogrify is 1 hour. The surges only last 1 min/level. If the surge spell needs to be in effect during the entire casting time then even if it was extended you'd need to be 30th level to pull it off - unless there's something that either can further extend the surge spell or lessen the transmogrify casting time.
grarrrg
2011-04-26, 09:17 PM
The casting time for Transmogrify is 1 hour. The surges only last 1 min/level.
Wow.
I completely glossed over casting time.
Please disregard previous statement.
evilbob
2011-04-29, 10:38 PM
I just wanted to say that this is an absolutely wonderful resource. I don't know if you've checked Google recently but this guide is pegged at #1 for Pathfinder summoners and rightfully so. Brilliant, brilliant work. I've never seen such a complicated class laid out in such an easy to understand way. Bravo.
One small question about the guide: in your "ripper" example, you chose to spend points on Bite, Reach (Bite), and Improved Damage (Bite). However, if you choose instead Limbs (arms) and Claws (arms), you spend the same number of evolution points and gain one attack. (Additionally, all of your attack-specific choices, like Improved Natural Attack, now apply to all attacks instead of all attacks except Bite.) Just wondering about that choice. I know that you are often limited in the total number of natural attacks, but it still seemed like erring on the side of too many limbs would be better than a bite (especially since that final limb can always carry something, like a shield perhaps?). This perhaps steps on the toes of the "Kali" build but I think there's definite overlap there.
I also had a few questions about the eidolon class feature and wondered if anyone had any insights. Due to the fact that an eidolon cannot heal naturally, it always gets summoned with its previous HP total, and if it dies it is summoned the next day with 1/2 HP, does it not seem odd that the most efficient way to heal your eidolon at the end of the day if it has fewer than half its HP is to kill it outright? (It goes away while you sleep anyway.) This seems quite against the spirit of the rule (and must lead to some odd roleplaying situations), but I cannot figure out a better way to heal the thing (especially since wand charges are expensive). Any thoughts?
Another strange rule interaction is the idea that your eidolon doesn't disappear when it goes into negative HP. It actually becomes a liability at that point, since you have to spend a standard action to unsummon it so you can switch to using your summon monster spell-like abilities. Additionally, the Life Link ability is useless in this case - when that is exactly the sort of case that you would want an ability like Life Link for! Life Link in general also seems like it would never be worth it, since the only time you would really use it is when your eidolon went from positive HP to less than -13 in one hit... and reversing that will cost the summoner at least 14 HP, which is quite a lot. Especially at low levels, this could never be worth it (especially since if the summoner goes down the eidolon goes down too!). This doesn't make as much sense to me.
Overall, I have been quite inspired by this guide! I'm still trying to decide between what I see as the two strongest eidolon models: a quadruped pouncer with a million attacks (the "killer centaur") or a biped reacher who controls the field. The pouncer is spectacular at single-target, repeatable burst damage, but the reacher can easily shut down all enemy movement (or at least make it difficult) even at very early levels. At level 1 you can take Reach (claws) and use Enlarge Person to give yourself a 10x10 eidolon with a 15' reach. That's a lot of control! I've seen high-reach monsters in play before and they are pretty amazing, even if their damage is low.
Glad it's helpful!
One small question about the guide: in your "ripper" example, you chose to spend points on Bite, Reach (Bite), and Improved Damage (Bite). However, if you choose instead Limbs (arms) and Claws (arms), you spend the same number of evolution points and gain one attack. (Additionally, all of your attack-specific choices, like Improved Natural Attack, now apply to all attacks instead of all attacks except Bite.) Just wondering about that choice. I know that you are often limited in the total number of natural attacks, but it still seemed like erring on the side of too many limbs would be better than a bite (especially since that final limb can always carry something, like a shield perhaps?). This perhaps steps on the toes of the "Kali" build but I think there's definite overlap there.
It's the number of natural attacks cap - you can't get 4 natural attacks until you hit level 4, and the sample builds are all level 1. You can reconfigure your Eidolon at each level, though, so it's not like you're losing anything.
I also had a few questions about the eidolon class feature and wondered if anyone had any insights. Due to the fact that an eidolon cannot heal naturally, it always gets summoned with its previous HP total, and if it dies it is summoned the next day with 1/2 HP, does it not seem odd that the most efficient way to heal your eidolon at the end of the day if it has fewer than half its HP is to kill it outright? (It goes away while you sleep anyway.) This seems quite against the spirit of the rule (and must lead to some odd roleplaying situations), but I cannot figure out a better way to heal the thing (especially since wand charges are expensive). Any thoughts?
Yeah, it's one of the very weird features of the eidolon class - ordering your eidolon to commit seppuku at the end of the day actually IS the cheapest way of healing it. Of course, a wand of Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon isn't really all that expensive once you go up a few levels, so you're only saving yourself a few dozen gold pieces.
evilbob
2011-04-30, 08:00 AM
It's the number of natural attacks cap - you can't get 4 natural attacks until you hit level 4, and the sample builds are all level 1. You can reconfigure your Eidolon at each level, though, so it's not like you're losing anything.
Right. I was just saying that once you get enough points to spend on Bite and all its upgrades, it seems more efficient to just get another pair of arms with claws. Even if you go over your natural attack limit, having an extra hand around can't hurt. :) Plus, you don't have to spread your feats around as much (like Imp. Nat. Attack). Grabbing a MW light shield for that spare arm is a pretty good deal as well (assuming you're not spamming the Shield spell) since that's a free +1 to AC. (And eventually, a +2 mithral heavy shield or better would remove the need to spam the spell.)
Yeah, it's one of the very weird features of the eidolon class - ordering your eidolon to commit seppuku at the end of the day actually IS the cheapest way of healing it.
This is probably one of the oddest things about the class. Between this and the fact that there are more "evil" summon monsters than good, summoners seem to lend themselves more naturally to a slightly darker play style.
One other small note about this excellent guide:
A 6th-level summoner with an 18 Charisma gets 9 spells per day of 1st-level and over. By comparison, a specialist Wizard gets 14, and a Sorcerer 17. You will run out, and you'll do it often.
At the same time, the 6th-level summoner also gets 7 summon monster III spells that are automatically extended (well, more than extended). Granted, sorcerers and wizards don't have to stable any major class features in order to access all of their spells, but technically a 6th level summoner does have 16 spells. This disparity actually works to the summoner's advantage at low levels (everyone starts with a tiny handful of spells while you potentially have over 9) but past level 6 it reverses and the difference will be much more pronounced, since the bonus summon monster spells are a (basically) static number.
evilbob
2011-04-30, 09:09 AM
More questions:
Would "being killed" be considered a permanent condition for the effects of the purified summoning spell? It certainly seems temporary (since it returns the next day).
If this is the case, (once you get rich) a wand of purified summoning would be a good investment (although I don't know if it would cost 24k or 30k). It's not good for in-battle use or for simple healing, but you could bring your ally back after every battle in which it was sent away. Also, it might be nice for ability damage and other nasty effects since there doesn't seem to be any other way of solving those problems normally.
Speaking of which: how are you supposed to solve those problems before you get to level 10? Some of the suggestions I've seen seem a bit cruel (effectively: you're screwed until you level up).
Also, another thing I'm confused about is the summon eidolon spell when the eidolon has been slain. It is "summoned normally" but that makes no sense, as the eidolon has no HP (and doesn't regain half until the next day). How have people been handling this issue?
Infernalbargain
2011-04-30, 12:10 PM
More questions:
Would "being killed" be considered a permanent condition for the effects of the purified summoning spell? It certainly seems temporary (since it returns the next day).
If this is the case, (once you get rich) a wand of purified summoning would be a good investment (although I don't know if it would cost 24k or 30k). It's not good for in-battle use or for simple healing, but you could bring your ally back after every battle in which it was sent away. Also, it might be nice for ability damage and other nasty effects since there doesn't seem to be any other way of solving those problems normally.
Speaking of which: how are you supposed to solve those problems before you get to level 10? Some of the suggestions I've seen seem a bit cruel (effectively: you're screwed until you level up).
Also, another thing I'm confused about is the summon eidolon spell when the eidolon has been slain. It is "summoned normally" but that makes no sense, as the eidolon has no HP (and doesn't regain half until the next day). How have people been handling this issue?
Well, when your eidolon is killed, you can do the ritual and it comes out the next day at half hp. So I'd expect the spell would bring it out at half hp. Purified calling would be treated similarly.
Otherworld Odd
2011-05-01, 06:22 PM
I've recently become interested in playing a Summoner, much inspired by this thread. I'm interested in playing a Saurian Summoner who has a snake-like eidolon. I'm kind of interested in giving him arms so he can possibly grapple and attack, kind of like a multi-armed D&D Salamander I suppose. Is there any really effective way to do this? I'm also interested in any ideas you guys can throw my way. It'll be my first summoner of course and the whole eidolon building process is kind of intimidating at this point.
grarrrg
2011-05-01, 10:19 PM
Psionic Race Review update (and three more 3rd party)
Dromites are Xeph are the 'winners', a couple situationally useful races, and a lot of stinkers.
Note: All psionic races receive Wild Talent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/wild-talent) as a bonus feat, which gives them 2 Power Points. While this does nothing on its own, it does open up Psionic feats and such as options.
Blue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/blues-psionics-unleashed) +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Str, can spend Points instead of eating. Rating: Meh. Nothing good, nothing bad.
Dromite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/dromite) Same stats/size as Halfling, gets +1 nat. armor, and 5 energy resistance, and the Scent ability. Rating: Okay/Good, about the same as Halfling.
Duergar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/duergar) Virtually the same as a Dwarf. Rating: Awful.
Elan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/elan) +2 any stat, can spend Points for temp increase in Saves, reduced damage from an attack, or to skip eating. Rating: Okay, you could do plenty worse, but nothing that really helps a Summoner.
Half-Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/half-giant) +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Dex, racials are so-so, notably has Powerful Build which is much more useful for melee-types. Rating: Meh, nothing good, nothing bad.
Maenad (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/maenad) +2 any stat, racials are mainly geared towards Rage. Rating: Meh, nothing good, nothing bad.
Ophiduan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/ophiduan) +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, +1 nat armor. The rest of the racials aren't anything special. Rating: Awful.
Xeph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/xeph) Same stats as Halfling, but medium size. +1 to (most) saving throws, and Burst of Speed. Rating: Good/Okay
3rd Party
High Goblin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/high-goblin-jbe) No, just, no. Stat bonuses and penalties in all the wrong places (-2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha), Racial bonuses are nothing special. Rating: Awful.
Oakling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/oakling) Similar stat bonuses as Dwarves, +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha. Racials bonuses and Racial Feats are interesting, but seem more geared toward melee fighting. Rating: Awful, unless building a Flank-Buddy Summoner (which still only reaches "Okay" at best)
Lizardfolk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/lizardfolk) +2 Con, -2 Int are decent stats. Racial bonuses/feats consist of Swimming, and Natural Attacks. In general rate as Meh, no real bonus/penalty to being a Summoner. Their value greatly improves in an Aquatic campaign however.
grarrrg
2011-05-02, 11:42 AM
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monsters-as-pcsMonster PC's update:
Aasimar: +2 Wis, +2 Cha, and Acid/Cold/Elec Resist 5. Rating: Good
Changeling: +2 Wis, +2 Cha, -2 Con, +1 nat armor, and claw attacks. Rating: Okay.
Dhampir: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con, has reversed reaction to Channeled Energy, and undead related racials. Rating: Okay.
Drow: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con, some decent racials, and Light Blindness. Rating: Okay
Drow Noble: Same as Drow with the following changes; +4 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, –2 Con, +5 better Spell Resistance, and have access to a variety of low level spells AT-WILL.
Rating: Excellent, but only because it is overpowered compared to all the other race choices (net +8 to stats!?). Most DM's should not allow this 'as-is'.
Duergar: +2 Con, +2 Wis, -4 Cha, decent racials. Rating: Awful, -4 Cha??
Fetchling: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, Cold/Electric Resistance 5, improved miss chance in low light. Rating: Good/borderline Excellent, stat adjusts are almost perfect.
Gillman: +2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, racials give water breathing, water dependence, and ENSLAVED. Rating: Despite having PERFECT stats, Meh/Awful due to the water dependence. In an aquatic campaign, they easily shoot up to Excellent.
Goblin: +4 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Cha, racials are meh. Rating: Awful.
Grippli: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str, Climb speed and swamp familiarity. Rating: Meh, nothing good/bad for a Summoner.
Hobgoblin: +2 Dex, +2 Con, almost non-existant racials. Rating: Meh.
Ifrit: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, Fire Resist 5, and pointless Elemental Affinity. Rating: Good, near perfect stats, and the most useful Resistance.
Kobold: +2 Dex, -4 Str, -2 Con, racials are meh. Rating: Meh, despite having pathetic stats and racials, there is nothing detrimental to a Summoner. (If 3.5 shenanagins are allowed, this probably becomes the best choice EVAR!!1!)
Merfolk: +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +2 nat armor, can breathe in water, and have a swim speed of 50ft!, but a land speed of only 5ft. (yes, a 5 foot step is the same as a Move Action). Rating: Okay/Meh on land, Excellent (or better) if Mounted or in an Aquatic campaign.
Orc: +4 Str, -2 all mentals. Rating: Awful.
Oread: +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, Acid Resist 5, pointless Elemental Affinity. Rating: Awful.
Strix: +2 Dex, -2 Cha, Fly speed 60ft. (avg) Rating: Between Meh, and Good, depending on how much you value Flying (it IS on the Summoner class list).
Svirfneblin: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str, -4 Cha, +2 Dodge bonus to AC, Spell Resistance. Rating: Awful (-4 Cha?)
Sylph: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, Electricity Resist 5, pointless Elemental Affinity (2 more and we can summon Captain Pointless!). Rating: Meh.
Tengu: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Con, various minor racials. Rating: Meh.
Tiefling: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, Cold/Elec/Fire Resist 5, pointless Fiendish Sorcery. Rating: Okay/Meh, despite the Cha penalty, the Resists are VERY nice.
Undine: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str, Cold Resist 5, pointless Elemental Affinity (by your powers combined, I am Captain Pointless!) Rating: Meh.
evilbob
2011-05-03, 01:28 PM
I'm kind of interested in giving him arms so he can possibly grapple and attack, kind of like a multi-armed D&D Salamander I suppose. Is there any really effective way to do this?
You can just give him the limbs (arms) evolution for 2 points. Although, if you want him to be able to grapple, he could probably already do that with his tail, and he can certainly attack with his tail and his bite. If you are looking for a multi-armed creature, just keep adding limbs and giving them claws or weapons or whatever.
Another question: has anyone considered doing a small ranged-attacking serpentine eidolon? At level one it would have 20 Dex; if you gave it arms it would be able to use a bow fairly well, and it would retain the bite/tail attacks if anyone got close. Probably not optimal but maybe interesting.
I was also wondering if any higher-level summoners have had problems with the eidolon's 3/4ths BAB and hit dice. This seems to make them slightly sub-par fighters, even with all the buffs summoners can throw around. Then again, with constant boosts to Str and Con, and the fact that once you hit level 8 it'll be large all the time may make up the difference.
Also, a random thought: another advantage to the "reach"-style eidolon is that Shield Ally specifically works within the eidolon's reach. You could stand quite a ways away and still be protected, and at later levels your whole party would be more easily protected.
evilbob
2011-05-03, 01:51 PM
One more question that I am sure is likely to have been hashed out somewhere and I just can't find it: the eidolon is an outsider. Outsiders, by definition, get proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. This isn't contradicted in the eidolon's entry, although it is somewhat implied due to the existence of the Weapon Training evolution (which is, in and of itself, pretty useless).
Thoughts?
PinkysBrain
2011-05-03, 01:58 PM
To grab and attack at the same time you have to take -20 on the grapple check, which isn't really an option.
evilbob
2011-05-03, 02:40 PM
To grab and attack at the same time you have to take -20 on the grapple check, which isn't really an option.
Would taking the Grab evolution basically negate this, though?
PinkysBrain
2011-05-03, 03:33 PM
No it would not.
evilbob
2011-05-03, 05:40 PM
(I'm full of lots of questions!)
Another question for Saph:
Ripper (1st-Level)
Form: Biped
Evolutions (extra): Bite (1), Ability Increase (Strength, 2)
Feats: Power Attack
AC: 13
Attack Routine (with Power Attack): Bite +4 (1d6+6) and 2 claws +4 (1d4+4)
Buffs to Use: Mage Armour, Enlarge Person
Why are the claw attacks only 1d4+4 damage? I was thinking they would be +6 along with the bite, since all attacks are affected by power attack, correct?
Dax the monk
2011-05-03, 10:23 PM
Ok so spring boarding off of the small archer build
Let's say I give him 6 sets of arms... Could he use 6 bows?
evilbob
2011-05-04, 06:27 AM
Ok so spring boarding off of the small archer build
Let's say I give him 6 sets of arms... Could he use 6 bows?
I think the answer is yes... but you won't want to. The issue with using lots of two-handed weapons is that the attack penalties will kill you. Specifically, if your off-hand weapon isn't light (which is any weapon you're holding past the first) you suffer the full -6 / -10 penalties to attacks. I think it's the same as holding several greatswords with each set of hands. Taking Multiweapon Fighting helps, but probably not enough.
I could be wrong, however; I'm not 100% sure the same issues apply to multiple ranged weapons, but I think they do.
Cieyrin
2011-05-04, 01:14 PM
(I'm full of lots of questions!)
Another question for Saph:
Why are the claw attacks only 1d4+4 damage? I was thinking they would be +6 along with the bite, since all attacks are affected by power attack, correct?
The bite's the primary natural attack, the claws are secondary, meaning they get 1/2 Str bonus to damage.
I think the answer is yes... but you won't want to. The issue with using lots of two-handed weapons is that the attack penalties will kill you. Specifically, if your off-hand weapon isn't light (which is any weapon you're holding past the first) you suffer the full -6 / -10 penalties to attacks. I think it's the same as holding several greatswords with each set of hands. Taking Multiweapon Fighting helps, but probably not enough.
I could be wrong, however; I'm not 100% sure the same issues apply to multiple ranged weapons, but I think they do.
Going by how wielding multiple crossbows is handled, I'd say it's safe to assume that bows aren't light weapons and you'd have the -4 for all attacks with Multiweapon Fighting.
Any reason why you don't take maxxed out arms and multiweapon fight with your eidolon? It seems better than taking natural attacks anyway.
grarrrg
2011-05-04, 01:26 PM
Any reason why you don't take maxxed out arms and multiweapon fight with your eidolon? It seems better than taking natural attacks anyway.
Lots of arms need lots of weapons.
Lots of weapons need lots of $$$$.
That's one reason anyway.
Cieyrin
2011-05-04, 01:27 PM
Any reason why you don't take maxxed out arms and multiweapon fight with your eidolon? It seems better than taking natural attacks anyway.
That's the Kali build, which Saph covered earlier.
That's the Kali build, which Saph covered earlier.
I know it was mentioned, but I was wondering about it's actual mechanical viability. Is it better? Worse? About the same?
cfalcon
2011-05-04, 04:17 PM
I was also wondering if any higher-level summoners have had problems with the eidolon's 3/4ths BAB and hit dice. This seems to make them slightly sub-par fighters, even with all the buffs summoners can throw around. Then again, with constant boosts to Str and Con, and the fact that once you hit level 8 it'll be large all the time may make up the difference.
I should hope the Eidolon is a sub-par fighter, given that fighter is a class!
You presumably didn't mean the class :P
The BAB penalty is definitely not an issue in early play. Remember that the Eidolon is a 1/1 BAB "virtual outsider", but it has hit dice that scale as 3/4 your character level- roughly.
Your first few levels, the Eidolon matches you in hit die. It takes until level 4 for it to take a "hit" and remain at 3. But generally, each level where you don't advance a hit die, it gains something else.
Late game, this difference tends to matter more, as the difference is greater, and the inability to each wear a full set of magic items becomes an actual penalty.
cfalcon
2011-05-04, 04:19 PM
One more question that I am sure is likely to have been hashed out somewhere and I just can't find it: the eidolon is an outsider.
That is actually incorrect. The eidolon counts as an outsider for the purpose of spells. It also has the same hit dice, BAB progression per hit die, saving throw progression, and skill allotment as an outsider. *Obviously* it's based on that. But, it's not an outsider, and does not gain the proficiency with simple and martial weapons.
evilbob
2011-05-04, 04:38 PM
The bite's the primary natural attack, the claws are secondary, meaning they get 1/2 Str bonus to damage.
I'm confused; claws are not secondary attacks - unless something makes them secondary? But if that's the case, then the earlier pouncer build is wrong, since it uses a bite and two claws and has them both at the same +4 to damage. Also, secondary attacks would suffer a -5 to-hit, and the claws don't in either example.
evilbob
2011-05-04, 04:45 PM
That is actually incorrect. The eidolon counts as an outsider for the purpose of spells. It also has the same hit dice, BAB progression per hit die, saving throw progression, and skill allotment as an outsider. *Obviously* it's based on that. But, it's not an outsider, and does not gain the proficiency with simple and martial weapons.
This is the only way it makes sense, I agree. But eidolons are specifically called outsiders about 3 or 4 times in the summoner description - thus the confusion. Examples:
"A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon."
"A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider)."
Now, clearly there has to be some sort of distinction - especially since I think every outsider would normally have a subtype - but nothing is in the text that I have noticed, which is what made me confused. It's not a -big- issue since I think the intent is clear (no free proficiencies!), but I wondered if I had just missed something.
A more pertinent issue related to type comes into play when trying to disguise an eidolon. Specifically, how hard is it? Have people just assumed the eidolon is "another race" and gone with the -2 penalty? (Assuming no other major body/size modification of course.) Or do they assume other penalties? Or could you call your eidolon in the form of a human-looking creature and therefore the changes would be "very minor" (+5 bonus)?
evilbob
2011-05-04, 04:53 PM
I know it was mentioned, but I was wondering about it's actual mechanical viability. Is it better? Worse? About the same?
I have no experience in this but Saph's descriptions seemed to give a good context: natural attacks are great because you can have a zillion of them, but anything with DR will really hinder you. Actual weapons can get around DR easier, but you get fewer attacks, and the majority of them have to be light or else you'll suffer massive penalties to hit. Since one of the best light weapons you can use is a shortsword which only does d6 damage, you're not gaining a tremendous amount. Also, the expense is not insignificant, as Cieyrin mentioned - although if you can afford it, the more powerful weapons would certainly increase your effectiveness.
I'm guessing natural attacks are extremely powerful at low levels, when multiple attacks are scarce and nothing really has DR. At mid levels the DR issue may become more problematic and giving your eidolon a weapon or two may be more useful. The nice thing is that you can change your mind every level! Every time you level up you can completely rebuild the eidolon from scratch (except feats) so that should give you lots of options you can try.
I have no experience in this but Saph's descriptions seemed to give a good context: natural attacks are great because you can have a zillion of them, but anything with DR will really hinder you. Actual weapons can get around DR easier, but you get fewer attacks, and the majority of them have to be light or else you'll suffer massive penalties to hit. Since one of the best light weapons you can use is a shortsword which only does d6 damage, you're not gaining a tremendous amount. Also, the expense is not insignificant, as Cieyrin mentioned - although if you can afford it, the more powerful weapons would certainly increase your effectiveness.
I'm guessing natural attacks are extremely powerful at low levels, when multiple attacks are scarce and nothing really has DR. At mid levels the DR issue may become more problematic and giving your eidolon a weapon or two may be more useful. The nice thing is that you can change your mind every level! Every time you level up you can completely rebuild the eidolon from scratch (except feats) so that should give you lots of options you can try.
Actually you don't get fewer attacks, you probably get more, but with the PF rules on Primary and Secondary, nat attacks will do more per hit, and have +2 to hit.
Is there something I'm missing about natural attacks being enchantable? Because I don't see why everyone says weapons are more expensive.
Cieyrin
2011-05-04, 05:11 PM
I know it was mentioned, but I was wondering about it's actual mechanical viability. Is it better? Worse? About the same?
It's a matter of cost of materials, mostly. The thing with the Kali build is, as grarrrg already mentioned, lots of quality weapons becomes a huge money sink. It suffers the same issues as other eidilons with lots of attacks and DR, though with the added issue of not being able to PA through it, since Kali depends on light weapons to keep her attack penalties down. Ultimately, it comes down to a combination of how much WBL you want to invest and whether you want to diversify your evolution points, since you won't be spending them all on powering up your natural attacks. I'd say it's about the same, power-wise, just coming from a different angle.
I'm confused; claws are not secondary attacks - unless something makes them secondary? But if that's the case, then the earlier pouncer build is wrong, since it uses a bite and two claws and has them both at the same +4 to damage. Also, secondary attacks would suffer a -5 to-hit, and the claws don't in either example.
This is what I get from answering off my memory of how the evolutions work, instead of actually reading it before posting. You are correct that the claws are primaries, so they are getting full Strength to damage. I can only guess that Saph forgot that the claws aren't light secondaries, and can get PA to damage.
Actually you don't get fewer attacks, you probably get more, but with the PF rules on Primary and Secondary, nat attacks will do more per hit, and have +2 to hit.
Is there something I'm missing about natural attacks being enchantable? Because I don't see why everyone says weapons are more expensive.
2300 + cost of weapon for +1 weapons gets expensive in multiples and gets worse if you try to go higher, adding 6k per weapon for +2 and so one and so forth. It just gets ridiculously expensive. Weapons are more modular in getting enchants on 'em, unlike natural weapons, it's just you'll pay for it out the ass where the natural attacker will be going for an amulet of mighty fists and getting a bulk discount on one mass enchant, plus other stuff.
2300 + cost of weapon for +1 weapons gets expensive in multiples and gets worse if you try to go higher, adding 6k per weapon for +2 and so one and so forth. It just gets ridiculously expensive. Weapons are more modular in getting enchants on 'em, unlike natural weapons, it's just you'll pay for it out the ass where the natural attacker will be going for an amulet of mighty fists and getting a bulk discount on one mass enchant, plus other stuff.
Ah, my bad, I thought that the amulet only did one set of attacks.
Dax the monk
2011-05-04, 08:44 PM
I no in SS it talked about using multiple hands on a weapon has PF covered that at all
Infernalbargain
2011-05-04, 09:24 PM
Would taking the Grab evolution basically negate this, though?
No, the grab evolution is what allows you to do this. A regular fighter grappling can't even do it RAW. You need Tenacious Grapple which to my knowledge is something that only krakens have.
evilbob
2011-05-04, 10:24 PM
Going by how wielding multiple crossbows is handled, I'd say it's safe to assume that bows aren't light weapons and you'd have the -4 for all attacks with Multiweapon Fighting.
Actually, you got me wondering: light crossbows say they can be used in each hand as a light weapon. Does that mean you could have two light crossbows in two sets of hands and the second one would be "light"? Rapid Reload would be required, but would this work?
PinkysBrain
2011-05-04, 11:12 PM
Sure, but you're probably better off throwing shurikens so you can get a strength bonus.
Cieyrin
2011-05-05, 11:48 AM
I no in SS it talked about using multiple hands on a weapon has PF covered that at all
It hasn't been brought up since SS, much like the grapple bonus for multiple sets of arms hasn't surfaced since Sword and Fist. Do I still use 'em? Yes, as, if we're going all 3.P, 3.0 material is still grandfathered in. Pure PF would have that as a negatory, at least as far as I'm aware.
Actually, you got me wondering: light crossbows say they can be used in each hand as a light weapon. Does that mean you could have two light crossbows in two sets of hands and the second one would be "light"? Rapid Reload would be required, but would this work?
The weapons stay treated as light regardless of the number of hands you use for 'em in terms of two/multiweapon fighting. The only difference between Crossbows Akimbo for a two-armer vs. a Multiarmed Menace is the MM can reload its crossbows without hax the normal guy has to deal with.
This is what I get from answering off my memory of how the evolutions work, instead of actually reading it before posting. You are correct that the claws are primaries, so they are getting full Strength to damage. I can only guess that Saph forgot that the claws aren't light secondaries, and can get PA to damage.
If you use a wielded weapon, all your natural attacks become secondary attacks. Otherwise claws stay primary attacks as normal.
Guide updated to include the noncore, monstrous races, and psionic races helpfully reviewed by grarrrg. :)
grarrrg
2011-05-15, 11:22 AM
Ultimate Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic) is being added to the PFsrd.
A few varieties of Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic/chapter-1-spellcasters/summoner-options) are included, as well as some Summoner specific feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic/chapter-3-feats).
Of particular note is the Extra Evolution (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic/chapter-3-feats/extra-evolution) feat, it can grant up to 5 extra Evolution points. Now SUPERMEGAAWESOME but useful nonetheless.
jackoftales
2011-05-15, 12:16 PM
Ultimate Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic) is being added to the PFsrd.
A few varieties of Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic/chapter-1-spellcasters/summoner-options) are included, as well as some Summoner specific feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic/chapter-3-feats).
Of particular note is the Extra Evolution (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic/chapter-3-feats/extra-evolution) feat, it can grant up to 5 extra Evolution points. Now SUPERMEGAAWESOME but useful nonetheless.
That's an extra ten if you combine it with a half-elf, that's almost half of what an Eidolon gets. Of course it costs you all 20 skill points or 20 hp and half of your feats..
Also, I really want to like that Broodmaster but it just looks so incredibly gimped. You can't stack damage bonuses in any way due to how the feats are divided and you can't stack attacks with the maximum natural attack thing split. You would end up with two or more eidolons, but together they'd do less damage than a regular one...which is just sad.
grarrrg
2011-05-15, 01:07 PM
Also, I really want to like that Broodmaster but it just looks so incredibly gimped. You can't stack damage bonuses in any way due to how the feats are divided and you can't stack attacks with the maximum natural attack thing split. You would end up with two or more eidolons, but together they'd do less damage than a regular one...which is just sad.
Agreed.
They do mention that a Broodmaster could make a decent PC if there is only one Player, as they'd have their Eidolons to fill various roles.
It would be better if you didn't have to share most abilities/points evenly, then you could make a combat worthless Skill-dolon, and still have a (slightly less) hulking-brute-war-dolon.
Akal Saris
2011-05-15, 01:12 PM
I must say, the Master Summoner ACF is more in line with what I originally wanted from the class :smallbiggrin:
jackoftales
2011-05-16, 09:22 AM
I must say, the Master Summoner ACF is more in line with what I originally wanted from the class :smallbiggrin:
Halving the Eidolon's progression is a pretty significant hit. I'd try to get a DM to houserule allowing you to have out the SLA and the Eidolon at the same time. I don't think that the ability to have out a single SLA and the Eidolon at the same time is significant enough to warrant HALF of the eidolon progression. They already have low HD.
Overall, I was really excited to see these archetypes but I'm pretty disappointed by them in play. They are all cool concepts but seem to drastically weaken the summoner's power.
Obviously power isn't everything, but I would hate to be significantly less useful to a party in combat.
Maybe I can convince the DM to take the Broodmaster idea and alter it in a few ways to make it viable..
Cieyrin
2011-05-16, 10:30 AM
The archetype that really catches my eye is the Synesthetist. Can you say Totemist? :smallbiggrin:
balistafreak
2011-05-16, 02:51 PM
I personally think the most important thing here is Resilient Eidolon, which lets your Eidolon stick around for a few rounds after you would normally lose it, enough time for your mates to get you back in action. No more getting sleep'd for one measly round, insta-gibbing your eidolon for the encounter.
I really like Synthesist. Traditional Summoner still has more power due to action economy, but being a hulking natural attacking-machine that also casts spells in its spare time is pretty sweet. It's not Totemist, it's Totemist+. :smallbiggrin:
Also, Synthesist can dump, Dump, DUMP his physical stats. Since you use the Eidolon's physical stats regardless of whether or not yours are better... well, yeah. (Maybe keep some Constitution, just in case.) Fused Link is what Life Link should have been.
Just don't expect to summon a monster, ever. :smalltongue:
Reverent-One
2011-05-19, 08:33 PM
Agreed.
They do mention that a Broodmaster could make a decent PC if there is only one Player, as they'd have their Eidolons to fill various roles.
It would be better if you didn't have to share most abilities/points evenly, then you could make a combat worthless Skill-dolon, and still have a (slightly less) hulking-brute-war-dolon.
Wait, what? Where does it say you have to split things evenly?
Looking at the Broodmaster Summoner has left me with a few questions. How do the item slot restrictions carry over to the Brood? Can only one eidolon wear a belt slot item? If you purchase the Large evolution to give yourself two medium Eidolon's, can you buy the large evolution on each of them separately as well (once you hit level 9, anyway) or does that interfere with the only taking evolutions once rule?
Infernalbargain
2011-05-19, 09:15 PM
The syntheist might be able to out-rogue the rogue. Dropping an evo into skilled for stealth, throwing greater invis around, then dip a level of rogue to get sneak attack damage, pick up energy attacks for massive damages.
BobVosh
2011-05-20, 12:47 AM
Eidolon - The reason to play the class.
Accurate, and saddening. I wanted to summon lots of critters, not be an Eidolon with a pet gnome (or apparently HE/human).
Great guide, love the thought of a stealth base summoner. I was kinda doing this with mine, as I backed up a rogue on stealth runs by giving flanks.
Tvtyrant
2011-05-20, 01:01 AM
Accurate, and saddening. I wanted to summon lots of critters, not be an Eidolon with a pet gnome (or apparently HE/human).
Great guide, love the thought of a stealth base summoner. I was kinda doing this with mine, as I backed up a rogue on stealth runs by giving flanks.
Astral Constructs and Midnight Constructs might work better in that line of desires; they are both Eidolons you remake each day to summon. Or Malconvoker.
Reverent-One
2011-05-20, 08:20 AM
Accurate, and saddening. I wanted to summon lots of critters, not be an Eidolon with a pet gnome (or apparently HE/human).
Then the master summoner from Ultimate magic may be the one for you. You get more uses of the Summon Monster SLA (that you can cast as a standard action and lasts mins/level) and can have multiple summons out at one time, rather than just the one for the basic summoner.
Conkea
2011-05-21, 09:25 AM
I've heard somewhere that an eidolon can use shield without penalty, without taking a feat. I just can't find anything written about that. Assuming this guy wasnt full of it, can someone tell me where i can find this?
grarrrg
2011-05-21, 10:12 AM
Wait, what? Where does it say you have to split things evenly?
Linky (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic/chapter-1-spellcasters/summoner-options)
Hmm. Now I'm not sure. A combination of mis-reading, and an example that implies even split.
...but the rest of the eidolons’ base statistics must be divided between the eidolons, including...
I think I mentally added the word "evenly" to the above.
On the other hand.
The broodmaster decides to give the first eidolon...2 points from the evolution pool...The remaining...2 points from the evolution pool go to the second eidolon
Between misreading and the above example I thought it must be evenly. This appears to (maybe) not be the case.
I say "maybe" because Ultimate Magic needs errata. Badly.
Reverent-One
2011-05-21, 10:50 AM
I say "maybe" because Ultimate Magic needs errata. Badly.
Except this isn't really an area that requires it. The rules don't say you have to divide evenly, so you don't. Just because they split it evenly in the example doesn't mean you have to, it's just how a single example did it.
PinkysBrain
2011-05-21, 01:12 PM
I've heard somewhere that an eidolon can use shield without penalty, without taking a feat. I just can't find anything written about that. Assuming this guy wasnt full of it, can someone tell me where i can find this?
Any non caster can do this, by using a shield without ACP.
Usually a darkwood heavy wooden shield.
grarrrg
2011-05-21, 01:13 PM
Except this isn't really an area that requires it. The rules don't say you have to divide evenly, so you don't. Just because they split it evenly in the example doesn't mean you have to, it's just how a single example did it.
Ultimate Magic still needs errata.
And it is possible that this will receive it, whether it works currently or not, it may not have been the intent.
Reverent-One
2011-05-21, 02:59 PM
Ultimate Magic still needs errata.
And it is possible that this will receive it, whether it works currently or not, it may not have been the intent.
And maybe it should only be able to summon one extra eidolon no matter what and the large/huge evolutions will be errata'd. But I doubt it. There's no reason to assume that it needs to be errata'd that you have to spilt evenly.
grarrrg
2011-05-21, 05:10 PM
And maybe it should only be able to summon one extra eidolon no matter what and the large/huge evolutions will be errata'd. But I doubt it. There's no reason to assume that it needs to be errata'd that you have to spilt evenly.
Ok, I'm going to say this as plainly as possible this time.
I was wrong about it being evenly split.
I admitted that.
I mentioned that MAYBE it would get errata.
NOT that it SHOULD get errata, NOT that it NEEDED errata.
There are plenty of other places in Ultimate Magic that DO NEED errata, enough that it seems like the book may have been rushed out.
It does not need errata. There is a possibility that it MIGHT get errata. That is all that I meant.
Reverent-One
2011-05-21, 06:29 PM
Ok, I'm going to say this as plainly as possible this time.
I was wrong about it being evenly split.
I admitted that.
I mentioned that MAYBE it would get errata.
NOT that it SHOULD get errata, NOT that it NEEDED errata.
There are plenty of other places in Ultimate Magic that DO NEED errata, enough that it seems like the book may have been rushed out.
It does not need errata. There is a possibility that it MIGHT get errata. That is all that I meant.
Well yes, I was just saying that for all we know, any specific piece of information in there MIGHT get errata.
Archpaladin Zousha
2011-05-21, 09:28 PM
Don't know if this has been asked yet, but have the new options from Ultimate Magic been judged here? I'm thinking of playing a Synthesist whose eidolon is an angelic being, much like a certain terrorist mage I'm sure many of use are familiar with, and I'm wondering if the Synthesist is a good route.
Also Ultimate Magic offers some basic eidolon setups of their own. How do they hold up compared to the ones here?
grarrrg
2011-05-21, 09:39 PM
Don't know if this has been asked yet, but have the new options from Ultimate Magic been judged here? I'm thinking of playing a Synthesist whose eidolon is an angelic being, much like a certain terrorist mage I'm sure many of use are familiar with, and I'm wondering if the Synthesist is a good route.
Also Ultimate Magic offers some basic eidolon setups of their own. How do they hold up compared to the ones here?
None of the options has had much discussion or chance for playtesting yet.
As for the Eidolon Setups, they are most likely weaker than the ones presented here.
The Ultimate Magic examples are based on flavor.
The ones in the handbook are based on power.
evilbob
2011-06-05, 09:07 PM
As for the Eidolon Setups, they are most likely weaker than the ones presented here.
Agreed. They are focused on flavor.
As for the class options, I'm guessing they will mostly also be a bit inferior to the base class.
At first glance, I'm guessing a Broodmaster will be much less powerful, especially since (at least the way I'm reading it) you have to divide up the HD between all of your brood, and HD is what determines your BAB. Since your eidolons only have a 3/4th BAB to begin with, dividing this further will tremendously limit their ability to hit by mid-game. It might work somehow if you went the flank-buddy route, but that's already a pretty sub-par build. Learn from the 3.5 monk: lots and lots of attacks that all miss do not a fun character make. less powerful since you'll need to split the HP, feats, and evolution points between two creatures. Gaining another action isn't bad, though. This will probably be more difficult in early levels until you get enough evolution points to really go somewhere with it, but by 8th level you may be able to put together a small team of glass cannon pouncers that try to make sure they win every fight in one round. Something tells me the magic item slot restriction will make this a very sub-par option in later levels, however, since there's really no way you could outfit each of your brood properly.
The Evolutionist also seems weak: give up a bunch of moderately useful abilities in order to do something a single spell could do anyway? If it were at least something you could change from battle to battle it might be worth thinking about, but it still takes a whole day to swap things out? Only at 12th level does it become faster than the spell, but 1 minute vs. 1 hour is definitely not worth what you give up.
Personally, I think the Synthesist looks pretty weak, too, mostly because one of the biggest strengths of the Summoner is the ability to have multiple actions per round (although if you pre-buff yourself wisely, you're not necessarily giving up much). However, I'm sure there will eventually be some rules-savvy people who figure out a good way to abuse this, probably with an odd multiclass level or a certain set of feats/items (you can certainly become an amazing skill monkey, as someone suggested). All in all, it seems like a very cool thematic idea, but if you're really this keen on melee just play a fighter (or the new Magus).
To me, the Master Summoner seems like the only competitor with the base class, with the potential to be much more powerful late-game. Your eidolon effectively becomes useless thanks to the HD = BAB issue, probably around level 5 or so, but by then your summoned monsters start to get decent. At that point, you would ignore the eidolon completely, except for niche tasks (like summoning it just to cast Lesser Evolution Surge so it could fly somewhere and use Bond Senses), and just concentrate on swarming the field with monsters and buffing them. Having 4 or 5 hasted, enlarged Erinyes or pouncing dire tigers running around would be pretty amazing, and really give you tons and tons of actions each round. (Plus, they all stick around for minutes per level.) And this build saves you two feats by giving Augmented Summoning for free. The only downside is that you could just about build this same character with a sorcerer (although summoning as a standard action is pretty nice), except a sorcerer would have more versatility. And, your fellow players will all hate you because your turns take 10 minutes each.
In the end, there are a few nice options in UM but nothing that really grabs my attention as something that will effect this optimization thread in a substantial way. I could be missing something, though.
Reverent-One
2011-06-05, 09:38 PM
At first glance, I'm guessing a Broodmaster will be much less powerful, especially since (at least the way I'm reading it) you have to divide up the HD between all of your brood, and HD is what determines your BAB. Since your eidolons only have a 3/4th BAB to begin with, dividing this further will tremendously limit their ability to hit by mid-game.
Not in this case.
Regardless of the number of eidolons in the brood, each eidolon has the same base attack bonus and base saving throw bonuses, but the rest of the eidolons’ base statistics must be divided between the eidolons, including Hit Dice (minimum 1), skill points, number of feats, armor bonus, Str/Dex bonus, evolution pool (but see below), and maximum number of natural attacks. Individual eidolons in the brood must purchase evolutions separately. Once a broodmaster decides on the forms and abilities of his eidolons, they cannot be changed until the summoner
gains a level.
evilbob
2011-06-05, 09:39 PM
Thinking about it a bit more, the Master Summoner could be interesting if you thought of the eidolon as more of a specialized mount - like a flying, burrowing horse that also has a +15 in sense motive, or whatever - and really ignored all the combat evolutions in favor of utility. Then, as long as you have about a minute to prepare, you could ditch your buddy and start bringing out a whole host of summoned creatures to fight with. (Of course, if you gave a wizard a minute to prepare, the battle would be over before it started, so this is still all quite relative on the "power" scale.) The main drawback would be that even with summons that last a minute per level and that cast with a standard action, you're still going to take several rounds to build up your army and buff them (and by that time, most battles are over).
evilbob
2011-06-05, 09:45 PM
each eidolon has the same base attack bonus and base saving throw bonuses
Right, but they still have to divide HD, which determines their BAB and saves. The above statement effectively becomes "as each other", as far as I can tell. So, at 11th level even if you have one eidolon with 7 HD and another with 2, they both have a +7 BAB and +5 good saves. But they don't have a +9 BAB and +6 good saves, like your standard, single 9 HD eidolon would. And if you're being more equitable, having two eidolons with a +5 BAB would be awful.
I guess you're reading it to mean that the eidolon's BAB and saves are dependent on the summoner's level instead of their HD? I'm sure that's a valid way to look at it but that's not how I read it. Anyone else have thoughts?
Further edit: this interpretation is held up by the example given.
Example: A 2nd-level broodmaster can summon two eidolons. Each eidolon has 1 Hit Dice, BAB +2, +3 on its two good saves and +0 on its bad save.In that case, the BAB is clearly not dependent on the HD.
That definitely helps them not be completely worthless, but you're also going to be dividing the effective HP, feats, and evolutions, which still means you're likely not to have two very powerful creatures. Gaining actions is nice, however.
Maybe if you focused on having two glass cannon pouncers that did as much damage as possible in round 1 (but had basically no defenses whatsoever)? That might work; in that case anything that lasted more than a round would likely mean you'd be falling back on your summoned creatures.
evilbob
2011-06-05, 10:12 PM
by 8th level you may be able to put together a small team of glass cannon pouncers
Actually, this probably isn't a good strategy either, since a level 9 Summon Master with the Superior Summoning feat could call 2-4 augmented lions in one round anyway, and they seem nearly as good (not to mention 2-4 the next round as well).
ajkkjjk52
2011-06-07, 10:45 PM
The synthesist looks really interesting to me, despite the fact that it looses the huge action-economy benefit to being a summoner.
It does have the advantage, though, of not having to worry about splitting items between you and your Eidolon.
The question that arises, though, is how feats work and other abilities work. If I have a martial weapon proficiency granted by my race or by multiclassing (not that I would) does my Eidolon-form also have this? What about something like dodge, or power attack? In other words, can I use both of our feats as a common pool when in the merged form?
ajkkjjk52
2011-06-07, 10:56 PM
Oh fail, I should have read that more closesly before posting.
The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own.
Also, it says you can "use your gear" while merged. Does that include passive items, like cloak of resistance? And what about light armor? Does your eidolon count as wearing that armor?
Infernalbargain
2011-06-08, 12:22 PM
The Evolutionist also seems weak: give up a bunch of moderately useful abilities in order to do something a single spell could do anyway? If it were at least something you could change from battle to battle it might be worth thinking about, but it still takes a whole day to swap things out? Only at 12th level does it become faster than the spell, but 1 minute vs. 1 hour is definitely not worth what you give up.
If you really sit down and think about transmogrify, having it as an SLA like that is fairly close to a solution button. You effectively have access to every single evolution at once. That also means that by proxy you have access to all the SLA's in the magic line of evolutions. Effectively you give up raw power for greater versatility.
GDark08
2011-06-12, 10:22 PM
I've got a 5th-level game with friends coming up soon and would really like to give the summoner a test-run. Only problem I'm facing right now is what to do with the eidolon. I understand much of the mechanics of it, but with everything that's available to do with it, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed. For a first-time summoner, what's a good, reliable build?
I will admit, I'm right now torn between just going weapon-wielder or that submitted dragon-like one.
Slipperychicken
2011-06-13, 07:26 AM
Can an eidolon have multiple natural weapons on the same limb set?
Ex. Eidolon has limbs(legs) with 1 claws, 1 slam, and 1 hooves on it.
Cieyrin
2011-06-13, 04:40 PM
I've got a 5th-level game with friends coming up soon and would really like to give the summoner a test-run. Only problem I'm facing right now is what to do with the eidolon. I understand much of the mechanics of it, but with everything that's available to do with it, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed. For a first-time summoner, what's a good, reliable build?
I will admit, I'm right now torn between just going weapon-wielder or that submitted dragon-like one.
Go with what you want to play. Dragon Rider seems like a lot of trouble to me, what with needing to Enlarge to even mount up. I'd lean more towards a Slugger or Pouncer, personally. The Nom-beast seems like a lot of fun, though. :3
Can an eidolon have multiple natural weapons on the same limb set?
Ex. Eidolon has limbs(legs) with 1 claws, 1 slam, and 1 hooves on it.
I think, given you have the option to replace natural attacks with other ones, that you're limited to one natural attack per set of limbs. Slam would seem to be an indication of that.
Starbuck_II
2011-06-13, 05:09 PM
Oh fail, I should have read that more closesly before posting.
Also, it says you can "use your gear" while merged. Does that include passive items, like cloak of resistance? And what about light armor? Does your eidolon count as wearing that armor?
Currently being debated on Pathfinder forums. 50% say you can wear armor because armor is your gear.
The other 50% say armor can't because it messes with eidolon connection according to APG.
Retech
2011-06-14, 11:16 AM
Doesn't enlarge person work only on humanoids? I thought Eidolons were outsiders.
CTrees
2011-06-14, 11:43 AM
Currently being debated on Pathfinder forums. 50% say you can wear armor because armor is your gear.
The other 50% say armor can't because it messes with eidolon connection according to APG.
I'm staying away from those forums, but as to "it messes with your connection to your eidolon," look at the APG. Eidolons can't wear armor, because it interferes with the connection to the summoner, but summoners can without interference (they even ignore spell failure in light armor - they were VERY MUCH intended to wear it). Nothing in the synthesist summoner description says anything to change that - if you put on armor, and then summon your eidolon, there's no mention of that suddenly interfering with the connection because you're closer (though putting on armor over the eidolon should still be out). To look at a different example, if you're wearing bracers of archery, and are a 7' tall half orc summoner, and then summon your medium, serpentine eidolon... even though you've become smaller, and no longer have limbs, you still gain that bonus, because nothing says you lose it just because your merged (in fact, the rules say exactly the opposite). Why should armor be different? (well, besides going "all my eidolon's bonuses are to NATURAL armor, and I'm wearing Celestial Armor for lolwtf total AC seeming "unfair" to some people)
Infernalbargain
2011-06-14, 03:19 PM
Doesn't enlarge person work only on humanoids? I thought Eidolons were outsiders.
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.
Share Spells FTW.
Retech
2011-06-14, 04:17 PM
Ah, thanks!
evilbob
2011-06-20, 02:41 PM
"An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind" - however, they can (and do) have an armor bonus, which "may be split between an armor bonus and a natural armor bonus, as decided by the summoner." Since this guide already advocates nicely for Mage Armor, it's probably a given that your eidolon's bonus is entirely natural armor.
So: is there any reason not to purchase Bracers of Armor for your eidolon? The only one I can think of is "because Mage Armor is cheap." It's definitely not worth it at low levels, but at higher levels you could have bracers of +8 AC that give more armor (and save a round of buffing). Item body slot issues may come into play, but are there many summoner-boosting items for the wrist slot?
(Given Craft Wondrous Item, you could even make them yourself.)
Akal Saris
2011-06-22, 09:09 PM
Here's a nifty pair of low-level builds I worked out using the new synthesist option:
Build 1: Pouncing Cat Rogue
Half-Elf Rogue 4/Summoner 1 [Progression R1, S1, R+3]
Encounter Fluff: You face half-elf woman in dark leathers, with a shadowy, translucent displacer beast twisting between her legs. She hisses and leaps forward, her blades and the shadowy beasts' claws extended!
Scout and Synthesist Archetypes, Favored Class HP (Rogue, Summoner)
Eidolon: Quadruped
Evolutions: Pounce, Tentacle, Tentacle
Base Stats @5th: 7 Str, 7 Dex, 8 Con, 19 Int, 16 Wis, 16 Charisma
Eidolon-buffed stats: 14 Str, 14 Dex, 13 Con, 19 Int, 16 Wis, 16 Charisma
Feats:
1: Two-Weapon Fighting
1: Skill Focus (Perception - Half-Elf racial)
3: Multiattack
3: Toughness (Rogue 2: Combat Rogue)
5: Jaguar Pounce (Only works with eidolon out until 6th due to BAB issues)
5: Weapon Focus (Tentacle) (Rogue 4: Rogue Ability)
Gimmick: Has Bite, Tentacle, Tentacle, Mainhand, and Offhand attacks along with pounce. Rogue (Scout) 4 makes a foe that you charge flat-footed to your attack. Jaguar Pounce gives you Improved Critical on all charge attacks against flat-footed foes. So on every charge, you have 5 automatic sneak attacks for approximately 3d6+1 with a high crit range (15-20 with rapier and kukri, 19-20 for natural attacks). In addition, dumping physical stats means the character has a whopping +4 skills/level from Int, and solid THP each fight from the eidolon, as well as some utility spells from summoner and whatnot.
Build 2: Defensive Cobra Rogue
Human Rogue 3/Summoner 2 [Progression R1, S1, R1, S1, R1]
Fluff encounter: In the shadows, you barely make out the outline of a lean man, with a translucent snake wrapped around his body, ending with a cobra's hood fanning out from behind his head.,
Synthesist Archetype, Favored Class HP (Rogue)
Eidolon: Serpent
Evolutions (4): Natural Armor, Stat Increase (Dex), Tentacles
Base Stats @5th: 7 Str, 7 Dex, 8 Con, 19 Int, 16 Wis, 16 Charisma
Eidolon-buffed stats: 13 Str, 19 Dex, 14 Con, 19 Int, 16 Wis, 16 Charisma
Feats:
1: Two-Weapon Fighting
1: Toughness [Human]
3: Extra Evolution [Skilled: Acrobatics]
3: Weapon Finesse (Rogue 2: Finesse Rogue)
5: Multiattack
Gimmick: This character takes advantage of the "free stats" from synthesist, the shared temporary HP, and the natural armor boosts to become an extremely durable and high AC rogue.
Armor bonuses at 5th:
+1 Chain Shirt: 5 AC
Eidolon boosts: +2 natural, +2 from level 2, +2 from evolution for +6
Shield spell: +4
Dexterity bonus: +4
Total: AC 29, could be higher with +2 dex gloves, +2 armor, or fighting defensively
HP: +21 temporary HP from the eidolon, +5 HP from toughness, +3 HP from favored class, Con 8 becomes Con 14 with eidolon summoned for a rough average of 50 HP and 21 THP on top of that.
Attacks: Bite (10ft range), Tail slap, tentacle, mainhand and offhand for approximately 15d6+5/round with sneak attack.
MightyPirate
2011-06-24, 05:13 AM
Great builds, think I may use your pouncer myself.
Gonna substitute Multiweapon Fighting for Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack, Replace the tentacles with an extra set of arms. Who says fighting with multiple weapons has to be feat intensive?
Jaguar Pounce only works on the first melee attack of the charge sadly.
This build would benefit from Quick Draw the way I'm doing it and I may snag Enforcer as well, combo it with the Blade of Mercy trait or just pack saps. Multiweapon fighting frees up feats for things like Hellcat Stealth, Toughness, and maybe even Improved Initiative.
My Gm has told me that perception would be very important in his campaign so I'll try to max that out a bit (like I needed an excuse.) If he's easy on me I might be able to take Vigilant Eidolon and have it stack with Perception focus, a high Wis from dumping physicals, and half-elf racial bonus.
Summoner may not like to multiclass with others and synthesist may lose out on the extra actions, feats, and skills but it sure opens things up for the rogue. What other combos would be really good?
I'm thinking multiclassing with Pally could allow for some really nasty Smite Slinging, Holy Blender style. The bonus from Divine Grace is nice too.
I'm sold on the synthesist now. It takes the great taste that is summoner and makes it the great taste that goes with everything.
Paul H
2011-06-29, 06:35 PM
Hi
Did anyone mention the Synthesist?
You wear the Eidolon, granting you their bonuses.
Example:
Human Sythesist (for PFSDcampaign, 20 pt buy)
Str 12 Dex 13 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 18
Bipedal form. 2pts (Dex+2) 1pt (+2 Nat Armour).
So, effectively: Str 16 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 18
Nat Armour +4. BAB +1, Darkvision, Bonus 6HP. etc.
Check it out
Paul H
riddles
2011-06-30, 10:18 AM
I think the brood master is being slightly underated. While you are splitting the evolution bonuses, you maintain bab and save, so your 2 eidolons still hit as hard. Its much better when you can buy the large and huge evolutions as they apply to all your brood (albeit with smaller size increases)
I think you can get a lot of milage from it, though investing in craft wondrous item and (more importantly for me) craft wand to get your short duration low level buffs regularly is very important for the class
VladtheLad
2011-07-01, 06:39 AM
Does the synthetist's eidolon uses the summoners or its own saves?
Cieyrin
2011-07-01, 10:04 AM
Does the synthetist's eidolon uses the summoners or its own saves?
Given the way Shielded Meld is worded, I'm fairly sure the Synthetist keeps his saves, regardless of whether he's fused with his eidolon or not.
MightyPirate
2011-07-01, 11:40 AM
Well it doesn't specifically say which saves are used (on the SRD anyway) but I'd also say it's the summoner's because it pretty much spells out exactly what you get for fusing with the eidolon. You would however modify the summoner's saves but the eidolon's dex and con rather than the summoner's.
There are also a few other weird kinks in the fusion system, like not gaining the eidolon's speed or size. You still take advantage of their evolutions though. So a halfling synthesist would have a speed of 40 when fused with his eidolon that has 2 legs evolutions but would remain small sized even though his eidolon is medium sized. He wouldn't change size unless his eidolon also had the large evolution.
Larpus
2011-07-01, 12:57 PM
Man, does the Synthesist seem to suck...loss of one action in combat, possible loss of armor boosts, close to no way to benefit from Summon Monster and very possible uselessness if your Eidolon ever goes away.
Sounds fun for flavor (mecha pilot anyone?) or to make a rather nice gish, but the Eidolon having no feats or skills hurt it bad...really, other than thematic reasons I cannot see how this is even as good as the normal Summoner...
The other options seem overall nice, Broodmaster seems quite nice at lower level campaigns, Master Summoner sounds cool with a non-combat Eidolon (though I wish he had some feature that allowed him to have more evolutions to him or apply them to summons) and Evolutionist seems kinda meh, but still decent enough I guess? Still doesn't quite deliver the versatility it boasts to, unless I'm missing something...
The Glyphstone
2011-07-01, 01:01 PM
Man, does the Synthesist seem to suck...loss of one action in combat, possible loss of armor boosts, close to no way to benefit from Summon Monster and very possible uselessness if your Eidolon ever goes away.
Sounds fun for flavor (mecha pilot anyone?) or to make a rather nice gish, but the Eidolon having no feats or skills hurt it bad...really, other than thematic reasons I cannot see how this is even as good as the normal Summoner...
The other options seem overall nice, Broodmaster seems quite nice at lower level campaigns, Master Summoner sounds cool with a non-combat Eidolon (though I wish he had some feature that allowed him to have more evolutions to him or apply them to summons) and Evolutionist seems kinda meh, but still decent enough I guess? Still doesn't quite deliver the versatility it boasts to, unless I'm missing something...
Well, consider that one of the strengths of the 3.5 Druid was being able to dump your Physical stats into the dirt and still fight at full capacity while Wildshaped, and a Synthesist can do exactly that plus evolutions to customize his combat capability and the ability to self-buff himself, it's quite powerful.
Larpus
2011-07-01, 01:29 PM
Well, consider that one of the strengths of the 3.5 Druid was being able to dump your Physical stats into the dirt and still fight at full capacity while Wildshaped, and a Synthesist can do exactly that plus evolutions to customize his combat capability and the ability to self-buff himself, it's quite powerful.
Well, that is somewhat what I had in mind when I said he could be a decent gish.
However, the problem I see is that unlike a Druid he can't really use some of his class abilities, especially Summon Monster (biggest problem being no option to trade it for something else like couple feats or more spells) and also, if memory serves me right, the druid gets some of the animals' feats for free, not to mention better spell versatility.
I guess that what really spoils it to me is not being able to trade Summon Monster for something else.
EDIT: Like a Mr.Hyde Alchemist can trade his bombs for sneak attack if he wants to.
The Glyphstone
2011-07-01, 01:54 PM
Summon Monster sucks though, so it's really not much of a loss overall; at the levels you get it, what you can summon is grossly unable to contribute to the typical combat you'll be in - and PF stripped away all the non-combat monsters from the Summon lists, so it's not worth utility either.
Larpus
2011-07-01, 02:10 PM
Summon Monster sucks though, so it's really not much of a loss overall; at the levels you get it, what you can summon is grossly unable to contribute to the typical combat you'll be in - and PF stripped away all the non-combat monsters from the Summon lists, so it's not worth utility either.
Really? No utility monsters?
That sure is a bummer, even more reason to have an Archetype that changes it for something else, bonus points if it's something also useful when you have your Eidolon out, like extra spells, more known spells, couple more evolution points or the such.
Another thing that really makes it stink for my nose is to not be able to separate from the Eidolon 'till lvl16, which also strikes me as odd that the normal Summoner can't fuse with it 'till such level.
I mean, it's not all that incredibly awesome of a feature (in the case of fusing it even makes you somewhat weaker), don't really see why is it so late in the levels, it's really not too much like the Druid who could change to a wide range of creatures with many different uses, it's closer to a more customizable, overall stronger, but also more static Animal Companion instead.
Anyway, my point is not that the Archetype totally sucks, but that it sucks compared to the base class who can achieve as much as the Archetype and even more. It might be more invaluable in point-buy games, but I still think that straight Summoner works better (after all, it's not that hard to remove yourself from combat when you're not attacking).
EDIT: Also, it got me thinking: what happens to the Eidolon when you separate from it? I mean, it says that the Eidolon has no feats or skills of itself, so it's nearly completely moronic? Or does it keep your feats/skills?
Reverent-One
2011-07-01, 05:55 PM
Summon Monster sucks though, so it's really not much of a loss overall; at the levels you get it, what you can summon is grossly unable to contribute to the typical combat you'll be in - and PF stripped away all the non-combat monsters from the Summon lists, so it's not worth utility either.
Wait, what? Did PF nerf the combat capabilities of Summon Monster too? And what non-combat monsters did PF lose?
Cieyrin
2011-07-01, 06:41 PM
Wait, what? Did PF nerf the combat capabilities of Summon Monster too? And what non-combat monsters did PF lose?
I know they lost Unicorn but I'm not sure what else got the axe.
Blisstake
2011-07-01, 07:09 PM
Summon Monster still seems very solid to me :smallconfused: I tended not to use it in 3.5 due to its potential to get out of control, but after playing a PF conjurer, it sure felt pretty powerful.
MightyPirate
2011-07-01, 07:18 PM
Well the main use I see for synthesist so far is the awesome dipability it rends to the class as Akal Saris demonstrated. Easy access to AC bonus, pounce, and multiattack/multiweapon fighting is great for pretty much any meleer.
You do lose the extra actions for casting while you're fused but on the other hand: smart monsters go for the caster. Having an eidolon wrapped around you does make you substantially less squishy and you don't even have to wait for Life Bond at 14th level. Personally most games I play in don't even go that high and having a great big hp cushion on my arcane caster makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
Not being able to cast summon monster does hurt a bit but really it's not all that different from a regular summoner. Use it as a back up when your eidolon isn't ripping things to pieces. It's a great secondary tactic but it doesn't run the show.
I may need some enlightening on summon monster though, I thought it was more versatile than summon nature's ally? I never really played any kind of caster before pathfinder (I was always sorta sucked into the skill monkey role) so I can't compare. My pathfinder druid didn't really smoke any encounters with summoning but it was usually good enough to finish the encounter pretty easily without need any other spells.
Drothmal
2011-07-02, 05:10 AM
There are also a few other weird kinks in the fusion system, like not gaining the eidolon's speed or size. You still take advantage of their evolutions though. So a halfling synthesist would have a speed of 40 when fused with his eidolon that has 2 legs evolutions but would remain small sized even though his eidolon is medium sized. He wouldn't change size unless his eidolon also had the large evolution.
Emphasis mine.
But when the syntehsist takes the large evolution, it becomes large no matter what the original size was, right?
Floeter
2011-07-02, 11:02 PM
I really do think your missing a lot of the nuisances of the different summoner flavor.
- Broodmaster: Gain two Eidolon. It sucks that you have to split everything between the two, but you could pimp out one and use the second as his flanking buddy or as your utility monkey. Keep one around with the AC and hitpoints while the second is built for misc actions, like gun running.
- Synthesist: My mind just boggles at this class. If this wasn't pathfinder, I would proclaim it broken and put it to rest far away from the PCs. I do see this as being awesome for multiclassing but can definitely work on its own as well.
At first level you get d10+con bonus HP, a potential +2 natural AC, and a +2 to one ability (any ability including your own Int). You could be starting with 18 hitpoints+2xcon, Barbarian, how are those apples. Anyone wants this, but....
- Barbarian Evolutions: +2 stats, +2 Nat Armor, Energy attacks, pounce, rend
- Fighter Evolutions: +2 Stats, +2 nat armor, Resistance, Push
- Monk Evolutions (wow!): Reach, +2 nat armor, Energy attacks, Skill bonus, climb
- Rogue: Skill bonuses (Stealth, atheletic, etc), Climb (base speed), pounce, poison
To draw from a literary source. I see this ability kind of like Leto from dune and the sand trouts.
Larpus
2011-07-03, 12:32 AM
Thinking about it again, the Broodmaster looks less useful, I mean, sure, you can make a skilldolon and a punchdolon for yourself, however a normal Summoner can make a skillpunchdolon that is as strong as both combined.
So other than the ability to pick a lock and fight at the same time, the Broodmaster is at a disadvantage, not a big disadvantage, but still disadvantage.
Honestly I'd preferred if he lost all Summon Monsters and a slight cut in Evo points (lose 1/4 or so) and be able to have 2 different Eidolons, but still only calling 1 at a time, however given a minute to prepare and call the Eidolon you can now have a very nice utilitydolon and a very nice punchdolon.
Master Summoner really does seem to pay too big of a price to do what he does, at half everything his Eidolon is pretty crappy...hell, the thing has the BAB of a freaking Wizard, you make a better fighter than it does!
And I still can't fully wrap my mind around the rules for when the Synthesist finally separates from the Eidolon...I'm hoping it's just bad wording so the Eidolon does have feats and skills as normal, just can't access them while merged (which is all the time until they separate).
VladtheLad
2011-07-03, 07:25 AM
The synthetist is a power house.
-His items benefit both him and the eidolon. (extremely useful if the dm doesn't allow for custom items, like a vest of resistance)
-He can dump his physical stats. (Str should still be 13 for power attack though.)
-The summoner always benefits from shield ally.
-His eidolon uses the summoner's will save(increased from shield ally) making it really difficult to banish. Added to that, due to gaining the eidolons stats and the shield ally bonus the summoner will have higher saves.
-The summoner benefits from the eidolons huge natural armor bonus and good dexterity bonus. This results in very high ac.
-Synthetist is the only way the summoner can benefit from ability increase.
-Can use his buffs more freely since he doesn't have an extra person to worry about.
-Certain evolutions like Frightfull Presence and Incorporeal form work better for the synthetist.
In short the synthetist looses the ability to both inflict damage and cast a spell in the same round, but gains a huge defensive boost and staying power. I think its worth it.
Here is a semi optimized 11th level build:
( Tabs seem to be lost in the post, how can I bring them back?)
Synthesist 11 Stats:Normal / Fused with Eidolon
Class-Levels: Summoner 11
Race: Half elf, arcane training (use spell completion items as if one level higher), dual minded (iron will)
Favored class bonus extra evolution ponts
Feats:
1st Resilient eidolon, iron will
3rd Power attack
5th Vigilant eidolon
7th Craft (…)
9th Greater fortitude
11th Improved initiative
(13th Extend spell
15th Expanded arcana
17th Quicken spell
19th expanded arcana)
Items: 82 k
Spent 81,5
Remain 1,5k
• Armor: +3 mithral chain shirt. 10k
• Belts: belt of physical perfection+2 16k
• Headband: headband of mental superiority +2 16k
• Neck: Amulet of Natural armor +1 2k
• Ring (up to two): deflection+2 8k, ring of counterspells 4k:
• Shoulders: cloak of resistance +3 9k
+2 mithral buckler 5k
Hewards handy haversack 2,5 k
rod of extend lesser 3k=3k
Grapplers mask 5k (may grapple and bull rush without provoking aop)
Ability Scores 20 point buy
Total Base Racial Magic Inherent Levels
Str 15 13 2
Dex 13 11 2
Con 14 12 2
Str 30 14 8(size) 2 4 2
Dex 20 14 -2(size) 2 4+2evolution
Con 19 13 4 2
Int 14 12 2
Wis 14 12 2
Cha 22 16 2 2 2
Could dump physicals completely, str 10 dex 9 con10 would allowth the pc to start with a base charisma 18. I don’t like it though and you would loose power attack.
Perception:
Initiative:+1/+5 dex+4 I.Initiative=+5/+9
Perception:+23/+31, low light vision, darkvision 60 ft
Offense
Full attack:
Reach:5 feet bite, 10 feet claws
Full attack: 4 claws +19 (1d8+10) bite +19 (1d8+10)
Full attack(greater magical fang): 4 claws +21 (1d8+12) bite +21 (1d8+12)
+heroism 4 claws +23 (1d8+14) bite +23 (1d8+14)
+ power attack 4 claws +20 (1d8+20) bite +20 (1d8+20)
Also has Rend.
Defense:
Hp: 11d8+22/44con=75/97?, Eidolon Hp: 9d10+45=99/108?
Ac:10+ 4armor+ 3 dex+ 2 deflection+5 enchant ment+1 amulet+1shield= 26
10+2base na+2 large na-1 lage size+5dex+8 natural armor+4 natural armor evolution+2 deflection+1amulet+5 enchantment+2 shielded meld=40
44(with mage armor)
46(with shield)
Saves
Total Base Ability Misc Magic Shielded Meld
Fort +11/14 +3 +2/+4 +2 +3 +2
Reflex +7/13 +3 +1/+5 +3 +2
Will +14/14 +7 +2 +2 +3 +2
Immune to sleep, +2 vs enchantments, evasion, devotion
Skills 44
Total Ranks Ability Favored other
Use magical device 20 3 6 3+8skilled
Perception 23/31 11 2+2elf+8skilled+8vigilant
Spellcraft 15 11 1 3
Fly 12/14 6 3/5 3
Linguistics 12 6 3 3
Ride 7/9 1 3/5 3
Handle animal 10 1 6 3
Arcana 7 1 3 3
Nature 7 1 3 3
Planes 9 3 3 3
Languages: Common, Auran, Terran, Aquan, Infernal, Celestial, Abyssal
Summon monster VI 9 times per day.
Spells:
1st 7 Mage armor, shield,reduce person, protection from evil, enlarge person, grease
2nd 6 cushioning bands, Resist energy, Summon eidolon, Invisibility, glitterdust
3rd 5 Invisibility greater, magic fang greater, dimension door, Heroism
4th 3 Overland flight, Evolution surge greater, Teleport
Ussualy buffs himself with mage armor, heroism, overland flight, magic fang greater(extended) and cushioning bands.
If a fight is imminent casts shield.
Evolution surge, Improved invisibility, Protection from evil, resist energy and enlarge/reduce person are casted depending on the situation.
once per day dimension door as spell like ability
Concetration:11+6=17
Eidolon: Quadruped
Evolutions: 17 points
large 4 points
improved natural attack (claws) 1 point
claws*2 2points
pounce 1 points
rend 2 points
skilled(perception) 1point (transfered to synthetist)
reach(claws) 1 point
skilled(umd) 1 point (transfered to synthetist)
ability increase (dexterity) 2 points
natural armor 3 points
MightyPirate
2011-07-03, 11:35 AM
But when the syntehsist takes the large evolution, it becomes large no matter what the original size was, right?
Far as I can tell, though it apparently doesn't change the racial trait of "slow speed" since that's listed separately from the racial size. Even so this can be pretty cool with a permanently reduce personed halfing or gnome.
1. Carry tiny summoner in backpack
2. Throw backpack at enemy just as the summoner finishes eidolon summoning ritual.
3. ????
4. Profit.
And I still can't fully wrap my mind around the rules for when the Synthesist finally separates from the Eidolon...I'm hoping it's just bad wording so the Eidolon does have feats and skills as normal, just can't access them while merged (which is all the time until they separate).
Let me emphasis here for ya:
Split Forms (Su): At 16th level, as a swift action, the synthesist and his fused eidolon can split into two creatures: the synthesist and the eidolon. Both have the same evolutions. The synthesist emerges in a square adjacent to the eidolon if possible. All effects and spells currently targeting the fused synthesist-eidolon affect both the synthesist and the eidolon.
The synthesist can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to his summoner level. He can end this effect at any time as a full-round action. For the duration of this effect, the eidolon functions as a normal eidolon of the summoner’s class level. This ability replaces merge forms.
Really it's still not a great ability if you dumped your physicals.
The synthetist is a power house.
-snip-
-He can dump his physical stats. (Str should still be 13 for power attack though.)
-snip-
-His eidolon uses the summoner's will save(increased from shield ally) making it really difficult to banish. Added to that, due to gaining the eidolons stats and the shield ally bonus the summoner will have higher saves.
-snip-
-Synthetist is the only way the summoner can benefit from ability increase.
-snip-
Please excuse the snipage.
The summoner doesn't need 13 strength if the eidolon has at least that much. Having less just means he can't power attack when not fused. Akal Saris took a few feats in his builds that can only be used while fused with the eidolon and I believe the passage on feat prerequisites backs this up.
Synthesist saves are pretty underwhelming actually. Shield ally helps but you use the summoner's saves, giving you a good will but pretty poor everything else. Reflex improves a little as you gain summon levels but your fort will pretty much always be sub-standard.
How does a synthesist benefit from ability increase? You'd pretty much have to put the points into mental stats. Full synthesists get eidolon bonus str/dex but this can become a small problem for dippers.
Reverent-One
2011-07-03, 01:54 PM
Thinking about it again, the Broodmaster looks less useful, I mean, sure, you can make a skilldolon and a punchdolon for yourself, however a normal Summoner can make a skillpunchdolon that is as strong as both combined.
So other than the ability to pick a lock and fight at the same time, the Broodmaster is at a disadvantage, not a big disadvantage, but still disadvantage.
Honestly I'd preferred if he lost all Summon Monsters and a slight cut in Evo points (lose 1/4 or so) and be able to have 2 different Eidolons, but still only calling 1 at a time, however given a minute to prepare and call the Eidolon you can now have a very nice utilitydolon and a very nice punchdolon.
The broodmaster, while having weaker eidolons, does gain an advantage, specifically action advantage. Potentially more attacks and more chances to crit, more creatures for the enemy to concern themselves with, more AoOs, give one or both UMD and you can have more spellcasting, ect. Haven't built one or seen one in play yet, so I don't know if the action economy makes up for the weaker stats, but it has potential.
Master Summoner really does seem to pay too big of a price to do what he does, at half everything his Eidolon is pretty crappy...hell, the thing has the BAB of a freaking Wizard, you make a better fighter than it does!
The same could be said for Summoned monsters in general. From the first page of this guide, the Constrictor Snake and the Auroch are listed as noteworthy summons for combat purposes, but both only have a +2 BAB, also no better than a wizard would for the level they can be summoned. The Eidolon becomes a customizable Summon Monster creature you can have around permanently, though you might not want to since not having it out means you can use your standard action Summon Monster ability as many times as you want.
VladtheLad
2011-07-03, 02:21 PM
1) I think you do need 13 strength.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats
Prerequisite: A minimum ability score, another feat or feats, a minimum base attack bonus, a minimum number of ranks in one or more skills, or anything else required in order to take the feat. This entry is absent if a feat has no prerequisite. A feat may have more than one prerequisite.
2)Synthetist saves are pretty good not compared to the eidolons but compared to the normal summoner. Also the key here is that the synthetist will have higher will save than the eidolon, especially if its a quadruped.
Then again thinking about it perhaps they are even better than an eidolon's, considering the synthetist would have more items, hit dice and higher wisdom than the eidolon. Again wether custom items are allowed is very important.
Also I wouldn't call +14/13/14 with evasion and +4 vs enchantment at level 11 underwhelming. Especially when most of the time you will have heroism on making them +16/15/16.
3) The synthetist benefits from ability increase because he gains his eidolon's evolutions. Aspect and greater aspect don't allow the summoner gaining ability increase.
So the correct statement would be that the synthetist can indirectly benefit from ability increase while the summoner can't.
Drothmal
2011-07-03, 03:15 PM
I'm not understanding why dipping synthesist would be any good.... When you have the eidolon summoned, you use the Eidolon's BAB, right? So unless you keep taking levels on summoner (and MAYBE dipping on OTHER classes), you won't be able to hit....
Don't get me wrong, I think the syntesist is awesome and powerful. But I see this class as being one you have to stick with it once you take it if you plan to go over lvl 4-5
I saw some builds that use rogue and synthesists, and while I think they are interesting, they are good for NPC enemies, I don't see them playing well for a PC, but I could be wrong...
MightyPirate
2011-07-03, 04:29 PM
1)Eh, I just assumed that the prerequisite is met because you're using the eidolon's stats at pretty much every point where you could conceivably level up and therefore take feats.
Prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.
If you want to nitpick that then I suppose your should remember that synthesists can't actually take resilient eidolon or vigilant eidolon as they don't meet the prereqs. You give up your eidolon class feature for "fused eidolon."
2)On closer inspection of the saves you're not only right but perhaps more right than you've been saying.
Fort= 3 Base, at least 3 Con, 4 from your magic items, +4 from shielded meld, +2 Great Fortitude= 15 minimum (assumes all eidolon stat increases go to str as they should)
Refl= 3 Base, 4 from Dex, again you have 4 from magic items, +4 shielded meld= 15
Will= 7 Base, Probably +2 From Wis, 4 from magic items, +4 shielded meld, +2 Iron Will= 19 and it's +6 against enchantments thanks to devotion and elf racial bonus.
You Heroism brings this to 17, 17, 21. I'm impressed. That and shielded meld can't be lost due to paralysis, stunning, and grappling like shield ally can.
3) I think I'm confused between Summoner Level ability increase, Eidolon Special ability increase, and evolution ability increase. My concern was that you can't put ability increase due to level into your physical stats. This isn't really a problem for strait sythesist who can use the Charisma boost but it can be problematic for multiclassing. As for getting the evolution ability increase on the summoner, that is a nice perk.
I think about the BAB in the same terms I think about a monk's flurry of blows. You use the eidolon's BAB for synthesist levels only and any other class adds on. The BAB for a synthesis 1/fighter 2 is 3 and the flurrying bab of a monk 1/fighter 2 is also 3, not 1.
Lady Serpentine
2011-07-03, 06:02 PM
Well, I'm making a Mount-type Eidolon for a Summoner NPC, and since it's quite different from yours, I'm interested to see what you think of it:
Base Form: Quadruped
Evolutions*: Bite, Limbs (legs) (3), Improved Damage (Claws), Claws (3), Trample, Grab (Bite), Swallow Whole, Mount, Head (3), Gore (3), Limbs (arms) (3), Slam, Improved Natural Armor, Tail, Sting, Energy Attacks (Acid), Breath Weapon (Acid)
Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Lance), Two Weapon Fighting**, Power Attack
*I specifically chose not to go with the Large evolution, as the rider is a Gnome and this lets him act as indoor cavalry.
**At 6th level (the level of the Eidolon in question), the Str/Dex bonus is +2. Therefore, it has at least a 14 Dex, but might have a 15. As such, I have assumed that it can take the feat, as it may be able to but the score isn't listed.
Larpus
2011-07-04, 02:13 AM
Let me emphasis here for ya:
Oh, sorry, I totally glazed over that part of the text.
Btw, while making a build for an Eidolon here (so I don't stall the game at every level up), I stumbled across the Energy Attacks description:
An eidolon’s attacks become charged with energy.
Pick one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. All of the eidolon’s natural attacks deal 1d6 points of energy damage of the chosen type on a successful hit. The summoner must be at least 5th level before selecting this evolution.
Up to now I always thought it worked just like weapons with elemental augmentations, dealing +1d6 of the chosen energy type (so a claw would deal 1d4+1d6), but the wording seems to suggest the damage is instead changed to 1d6 of energy damage (the claw would deal 1d6 energy instead of 1d4 or 1d4+1d6).
That is not the case, right?
Paul H
2011-07-04, 05:52 AM
Hi
I read it that the attack gains (adds) the energy damage.
My PFS Synthesist is now lvl 2. Awesome melee with her Heirloom Gt Sword.
At 1st lvl I put her 3 points into +2 Dex/+2 Nat Armour.
At 2nd lvl I've given her +2 Dex/+2 Con (She gained +2 Nat armour at 2nd lvl anyway).
I took Str 12 Dex 13 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 18 on 20 pt build so I could take Dodge at 1st lvl. Increasing Str at 4th lvl, so Pwr Attack at 5th.
(She's a Taldor female dancer, with a harem suit for her 'day job' when not adventuring)!
Thanks
Paul H
VladtheLad
2011-07-05, 04:51 AM
1)Eh, I just assumed that the prerequisite is met because you're using the eidolon's stats at pretty much every point where you could conceivably level up and therefore take feats.
If you want to nitpick that then I suppose your should remember that synthesists can't actually take resilient eidolon or vigilant eidolon as they don't meet the prereqs. You give up your eidolon class feature for "fused eidolon.".
I am more of a "spirits of the rules" person. Getting feats without meeting the prereqs annoys me. Also it just makes "sense" that resilient/vigilant eidolon works with eidolon meld. By RAW you are right though.
Now we should get in a RAW vs RAI debate and derail the thread. :smallbiggrin:
Even if you nitpick resilient eidolon and vigilant eidolon there is always extra evolution to replace them with. Not as useful, but still pretty good. With two extra evolutions I would propably grab tremorsense or charisma ability increase. Or even flight and choose to learn baleful polymorph instead of overland flight.
2)On closer inspection of the saves you're not only right but perhaps more right than you've been saying.
Fort= 3 Base, at least 3 Con, 4 from your magic items, +4 from shielded meld, +2 Great Fortitude= 15 minimum (assumes all eidolon stat increases go to str as they should)
Refl= 3 Base, 4 from Dex, again you have 4 from magic items, +4 shielded meld= 15
Will= 7 Base, Probably +2 From Wis, 4 from magic items, +4 shielded meld, +2 Iron Will= 19 and it's +6 against enchantments thanks to devotion and elf racial bonus.
You Heroism brings this to 17, 17, 21. I'm impressed. That and shielded meld can't be lost due to paralysis, stunning, and grappling like shield ally can.
Shielded Meld grants a +4 bonus at level 12, my build is level 11. Thats why there is a 2 point difference.
3) I think I'm confused between Summoner Level ability increase, Eidolon Special ability increase, and evolution ability increase. My concern was that you can't put ability increase due to level into your physical stats. This isn't really a problem for strait sythesist who can use the Charisma boost but it can be problematic for multiclassing. As for getting the evolution ability increase on the summoner, that is a nice perk.
Now I am also confused. :P
I just meant the nice perk part. In retrospect it only really matters with charisma.
Cyspero
2011-07-10, 08:51 PM
If I have a charge of an unused touch spell (acid splash for instance) can I pass that charge to my Eidolon (using share spells) so it discharges on someone it attacks? My thinking is that with Share Spells i can target my Eidolon even if it were a spell of target "you". One way of looking at ranged touch spells and charges is you are casting the charge on "you" then trying to discharge it on someone else with a touch attack. Thoughts?
"Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."
"Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells."
acid_ninja
2011-07-10, 09:33 PM
There's a target line on the spell description and that's what determines what spells can be shared or not. For example:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shield
Has a target of 'you' so share spells works with it but acid splash:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/acid-splash
doesn't say target: you so it won't work. The ability is there so you can cast self-only buffs on your eidolon
Celebrochan
2011-07-13, 02:23 PM
Can you use the Sythesist Archtype combined with the Reach evolution to cast touch spells with reach?
Cieyrin
2011-07-13, 07:36 PM
Can you use the Sythesist Archtype combined with the Reach evolution to cast touch spells with reach?
Touch goes by your regular reach, so yes, you could.
FaveDave
2011-07-16, 10:11 PM
Nice guide.
{Scrubbed}
Please remove those damned "spoiler" buttons and improve the readability by 1 billion per cent.
They serve no purpose. There is no spoiler factor BECAUSE WE ARE HERE TO READ ABOUT SUMMONERS.
Duh.
MeeposFire
2011-07-16, 10:25 PM
Nice guide.
{Scrubbed}
Please remove those damned "spoiler" buttons and improve the readability by 1 billion per cent.
They serve no purpose. There is no spoiler factor BECAUSE WE ARE HERE TO READ ABOUT SUMMONERS.
Duh.
Spoilers are used to increase the ease of reading. Without spoilers you would have walls of text and you would have to navigate it all in order to find what you want. With the spoilers you can just find the section that fits what you want to find and look without looking at everything at once.
Larpus
2011-07-25, 02:49 AM
Hey everyone, I got sort of a big question here: exactly how in hell does the Half-Elf +1/4 Evo points ability work?
I mean, from the wording of favored class bonuses, the Half-Elf Summoner receives +1/4 of this current Evo points every level, which makes it look something like this:
Lvl01 - 03+01=04
Lvl02 - 05+01=06
Lvl03 - 07+01=08
Lvl04 - 10+02=12
Lvl05 - 13+03=16
Lvl06 - 17+04=21
Lvl07 - 22+05=27
Lvl08 - 28+07=35
Lvl09 - 37+09=46
Lvl10 - 47+11=58
However that simply cannot be right, I mean, this guy has over 3 times the amount of Evo points that a Summoner from another race could have.
Another possibility is that it only considers the base number, without the extras, so it looks like this:
Lvl01 - 03+01=04
Lvl02 - 04+01+01=06
Lvl03 - 05+02+01=08
Lvl04 - 07+03+01=11
Lvl05 - 08+04+02=14
Lvl06 - 09+06+02=17
Lvl07 - 10+08+02=20
Lvl08 - 11+10+02=23
Lvl09 - 13+12+03=28
Lvl10 - 14+15+03=32
That's more acceptable, but he still has over twice what a Summoner is supposed to.
And there's the possibility that it only applies once, but if that's the case it's a pretty lame and useless favored class bonus and you'd be better off grabbing either extra HP or Skills until level 10 or so.
So anyway, how in hell does it work?
Curious
2011-07-25, 02:57 AM
*Facepalm*
You receive one quarter of an evolution point a level, as in 1 every 4 levels.
:smallsigh:
Larpus
2011-07-25, 07:20 AM
*Facepalm*
You receive one quarter of an evolution point a level, as in 1 every 4 levels.
:smallsigh:
Oh.
Well that does make much more sense.
I locked myself out of this answer 'cus I thought to myself "that can't be, you can't have 1/4 extra point".
Thanks for clearing that up.
Sylivin
2011-07-27, 05:32 PM
Question on how long an Eidolon stays alive and active.
According to the text:
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score.
Does the Eidolon fall unconscious at 0 or does it continue to fight until negative Con score and is then unsummoned unless the summoner sacrifices his own hit points via Life Link?
Edit: Oh, and thanks for the awesome guide! Made a killer centauresque build to start with, but at low levels that -5 to attack is crazy killer. So probably doing some kind of crazy pouncer instead and switch once I hit large evo. ;)
Cieyrin
2011-07-27, 08:10 PM
Does the Eidolon fall unconscious at 0 or does it continue to fight until negative Con score and is then unsummoned unless the summoner sacrifices his own hit points via Life Link?
It appears that it would fall unconscious unless it has Diehard or some other shenanigan, like PCs. I don't see any text to suggest otherwise, though. It's kinda weird that it does have that text if they're just gonna be a lump of meat to take cover behind when they drop to negatives...
Tvtyrant
2011-07-27, 08:23 PM
Would having a ton of tails be altogether worse then a ton of limbs? The tails are cheaper and the sting ability is as good as the claws. It doesn't get Rend or Rake, but having 1.5 the normal number of attacks seems to even it out.
Sylivin
2011-07-27, 08:32 PM
Remember that you get 2 claws for 1 evo point. So you end up with 2 primary attacks for 3 points. Meanwhile it costs 2 points for a stinger upgrade (1 for tail, 1 for stinger). So it ends up costing 4 points for 2 primary attacks if you go the tail route. Plus with the bonus of rend... tends to be better over all to go with claws both for evo point useage and overall damage per round.
Tvtyrant
2011-07-27, 08:36 PM
Remember that you get 2 claws for 1 evo point. So you end up with 2 primary attacks for 3 points. Meanwhile it costs 2 points for a stinger upgrade (1 for tail, 1 for stinger). So it ends up costing 4 points for 2 primary attacks if you go the tail route. Plus with the bonus of rend... tends to be better over all to go with claws both for evo point useage and overall damage per round.
I would argue that you get 5 points for 3 primary attacks with the tail; tail slap and the stinger do not cancel each other. But I take your point.
IthroZada
2011-07-28, 01:06 AM
Remember that you get 2 claws for 1 evo point. So you end up with 2 primary attacks for 3 points. Meanwhile it costs 2 points for a stinger upgrade (1 for tail, 1 for stinger). So it ends up costing 4 points for 2 primary attacks if you go the tail route. Plus with the bonus of rend... tends to be better over all to go with claws both for evo point useage and overall damage per round.
You aren't adding in the costs of having enough limbs for all those attacks. So, claws are cheaper until you've used up your current number of limbs.
TwylyghT
2011-07-28, 03:24 AM
I find my self amused by the thought of a ranged mounted build, mounted archery on yourself, and a mountable eidolon, plus arms, dodge, mobility, and shot on the run. With some added legs it could be a real chore chasing you down.
Also, if a medium summoner merges with a small eidolon, do you get Kuato from Total Recall?
Now for a more serious change in direction, I notice that starting at level 12, your eidolon has fallen 3 levels behind you at 9 HD to your 12, now being that it certainly has a higher INT than 3, and you certainly have a high CHA, could you designate the eidolon as a cohort with the Leadership feat and earn it some class levels up to the usual 2 below your own? If allowed to work that could certainly help the multiclass issues the class faces.
Sylivin
2011-07-28, 08:56 AM
You aren't adding in the costs of having enough limbs for all those attacks. So, claws are cheaper until you've used up your current number of limbs.
Eh? Limbs are 2 points and claws are 1, so you get 2 primary attacks for 3 points. Am I missing something?
Larpus
2011-07-28, 09:02 AM
I would argue that you get 5 points for 3 primary attacks with the tail; tail slap and the stinger do not cancel each other. But I take your point.
Are you sure?
I thought there was a rule somewhere saying that each set of limbs (arms, legs, tail, head, etc) only got one (two in the case of arms and legs) attack per round, regardless of how many natural weapons are there, but I can't seem to be able to find it.
Otherwise you can also add Slam to arms and get 3 attacks for 4 evos.
Tvtyrant
2011-07-28, 04:04 PM
Are you sure?
I thought there was a rule somewhere saying that each set of limbs (arms, legs, tail, head, etc) only got one (two in the case of arms and legs) attack per round, regardless of how many natural weapons are there, but I can't seem to be able to find it.
Otherwise you can also add Slam to arms and get 3 attacks for 4 evos.
Except that slams explicitly say you can't do that, the tail attacks don't. There might be a general rule, but someone would have to post a link to it.
IthroZada
2011-07-28, 06:46 PM
Eh? Limbs are 2 points and claws are 1, so you get 2 primary attacks for 3 points. Am I missing something?
I for some reason thought that you gained one limb at a time, instead of a pair. So, I am incorrect.
Cieyrin
2011-07-28, 08:41 PM
Double post.
You can delete posts from the edit button, y'know.
IthroZada
2011-07-28, 08:50 PM
You can delete posts from the edit button, y'know.
I know now.
Tvtyrant
2011-07-28, 09:02 PM
Seeing as how this is the summoners handbook, what tier would a summoner be if it were a 3.5 class? I think bottom 2 or upper 3 (really goes from 3 to 2 with upper level spells IMO, Gate for instance) but I could be wrong.
Sylivin
2011-07-28, 10:03 PM
Considering they can also create their own planes now as well I'd guess around 2.
Qing Guang
2011-08-04, 10:25 PM
What was the final consensus on the Broodmaster?
I've decided one of my two major boss NPCs will be a Summoner, and I was considering having him be a Broodmaster. At the very least it would give the party more to focus on, but if it gimps him I'd rather go with the vanilla Summoner.
Curious
2011-08-04, 11:55 PM
What was the final consensus on the Broodmaster?
I've decided one of my two major boss NPCs will be a Summoner, and I was considering having him be a Broodmaster. At the very least it would give the party more to focus on, but if it gimps him I'd rather go with the vanilla Summoner.
If you want lots of minions, it's probably better to go with the Summon Monster option rather than Broodmaster.
Cieyrin
2011-08-07, 10:15 AM
What was the final consensus on the Broodmaster?
I've decided one of my two major boss NPCs will be a Summoner, and I was considering having him be a Broodmaster. At the very least it would give the party more to focus on, but if it gimps him I'd rather go with the vanilla Summoner.
Master Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/master-summoner) works better for having a swarm for creatures, as Broodmaster's Eidolons are overly gimped. It would have worked better as having multiple Eidolons with an effective Summoner level penalty. But, them's the breaks.
Starbuck_II
2011-08-10, 02:50 PM
FAQ reversed ruling:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obe
Now you no longer limited with manufactored attacks (by BAb/Haste/etc) by Nat Attack limit by Eidolon level when fused.
Curious
2011-08-10, 03:01 PM
Seeing as how this is the summoners handbook, what tier would a summoner be if it were a 3.5 class? I think bottom 2 or upper 3 (really goes from 3 to 2 with upper level spells IMO, Gate for instance) but I could be wrong.
As you said, probably at the upper end of tier 3 for the early levels, and then rocketing into tier 2 when higher level spells are engaged.
CTrees
2011-08-10, 03:01 PM
Well, that's how I figured it worked, anyway.
However, the Synthesist gains the bonuses from the Skilled evolution? Friggin' sweet! +8 to one skill check (especially at low levels) is HUGE
Also, I don't think the way the Synthesist is worded should mean that he can't use (say) a chain shirt as well (and I've gone in depth on this argument), but the FAQ certain puts a firm "no" on that. Which is probably good (I'm going to think of it as errata). The much happier "clarification" (errata) is BAB for a synthesist - it stacks with other classes! That's awesome, and makes synthesist dips soooooo much better.
Appreciate this link!
MeeposFire
2011-08-10, 03:31 PM
FAQ reversed ruling:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obe
Now you no longer limited with manufactored attacks (by BAb/Haste/etc) by Nat Attack limit by Eidolon level when fused.
Took them long enough.
WildPyre
2011-08-10, 05:31 PM
Master Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/master-summoner) works better for having a swarm for creatures, as Broodmaster's Eidolons are overly gimped. It would have worked better as having multiple Eidolons with an effective Summoner level penalty. But, them's the breaks.
I fail to see how Master Summoner is good for anything. Having your Eidolon at 1/2 the level of normal in place of getting to use one instance of your Summon Monster ability? Congrats you just gimped your big class feature for something you could have done with a wand, scroll, or by simply casting the spell yourself like normal.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't justify losing Shield Ally and half your Eidolon's levels to get a single casting of Summon Monster (Gate if you're high enough) through your Summon Monster class ability.
Reverent-One
2011-08-10, 06:54 PM
Master Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/master-summoner) works better for having a swarm for creatures, as Broodmaster's Eidolons are overly gimped. It would have worked better as having multiple Eidolons with an effective Summoner level penalty. But, them's the breaks.
What effective summoner level penalty would you think is appropriate?
FAQ reversed ruling:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obe
Now you no longer limited with manufactored attacks (by BAb/Haste/etc) by Nat Attack limit by Eidolon level when fused.
They also confirmed you do not get the bonus from the armor the summoner wears.
I fail to see how Master Summoner is good for anything. Having your Eidolon at 1/2 the level of normal in place of getting to use one instance of your Summon Monster ability? Congrats you just gimped your big class feature for something you could have done with a wand, scroll, or by simply casting the spell yourself like normal.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't justify losing Shield Ally and half your Eidolon's levels to get a single casting of Summon Monster (Gate if you're high enough) through your Summon Monster class ability.
You seem to be missing the fact that you can have multiple castings of the Summon Monster Class ability up with the master summoner archetype.
WildPyre
2011-08-10, 07:02 PM
You seem to be missing the fact that you can have multiple castings of the Summon Monster Class ability up with the master summoner archetype.
Hmm I'd say that only works when your Eidolon isn't out but at half it's level, you may as well put baby in the corner.
Seems like it would be good in the end game when you can gate in crazy powerful stuff, but early and mid game I think I'd still rather have the Eidolon at full powered murder machine.
Reverent-One
2011-08-10, 07:04 PM
Hmm I'd say that only works when your Eidolon isn't out but at half it's level, you may as well put baby in the corner.
That is correct.
Seems like it would be good in the end game when you can gate in crazy powerful stuff, but early and mid game I think I'd still rather have the Eidolon at full powered murder machine.
Still, if you're specifically looking for someone with a swarm of summons, the Master Summoner does a decent job at that.
WildPyre
2011-08-10, 07:16 PM
That is correct.
*sighs and face palms*
Yes if you take that out of context of the rest of the sentence you look very clever for pointing out that I said something obvious... though if you read it in context you'll realize I was indicating that it's drawback was actually moot and not helpful to my stance at all.
If it helps your comprehension any better feel free to replace "I'd say" with "I'd point out"
MeeposFire
2011-08-10, 07:27 PM
They also reversed the share spells problem I mentioned in another thread. So enlarge is back for the synthesists because as I said in another thread they were making stuff up when they said it did not work.
Reverent-One
2011-08-10, 07:52 PM
*sighs and face palms*
Yes if you take that out of context of the rest of the sentence you look very clever for pointing out that I said something obvious... though if you read it in context you'll realize I was indicating that it's drawback was actually moot and not helpful to my stance at all.
If it helps your comprehension any better feel free to replace "I'd say" with "I'd point out"
I was merely confirming your reading of the rules, and wasn't intent on changing the context of the message. You would be right to say "I'd point out" rather than "I'd say", though since the latter implies at least a little bit of uncertainty.
Cieyrin
2011-08-10, 08:01 PM
Hmm I'd say that only works when your Eidolon isn't out but at half it's level, you may as well put baby in the corner.
Seems like it would be good in the end game when you can gate in crazy powerful stuff, but early and mid game I think I'd still rather have the Eidolon at full powered murder machine.
Also note that, at least at first level, a Master Summoner is more powerful than a regular, as they have a min effective level of 1, so they have a full strength Eidilon + the ability to summon support for it.
Also note that a Master Summoner will probably have their Eidilon be less melee monster and more skill monkey/archer/mount with style. Think of it as an assistant/bodyguard while you send fodder in to deal with your problems.
As for Broodmaster, it depends on the number of eidilons you have out but i think for 2, a -2 effective Summoner level (min lvl 1) should work and then scale by 1 per extra eidilon you have out. I can't say how effective that is without playtesting it, that's just my gut impression.
Larpus
2011-08-11, 01:45 PM
Also note that a Master Summoner will probably have their Eidilon be less melee monster and more skill monkey/archer/mount with style. Think of it as an assistant/bodyguard while you send fodder in to deal with your problems.
As for Broodmaster, it depends on the number of eidilons you have out but i think for 2, a -2 effective Summoner level (min lvl 1) should work and then scale by 1 per extra eidilon you have out. I can't say how effective that is without playtesting it, that's just my gut impression.
The Broodmaster can have some interesting combinations and ways to be used, still I don't see any way it'll be better than a full Eidolon, except for the action economy of picking the lock and fighting at the same time.
But Master Summoner looks quite bad at any level other than 1st. Even if he makes an skilldolon, the thing will have few ranks due to its half-everything deal, it can act as a minor meatshield, but don't forget that the Summoner entry doesn't mention that the Eidolon follows any and every order from you regardless of dangers to itself, so the DM can actually say that it won't obey you until you can beat Viridian's Gym and claim the earth badge.
Even so, it'll be quite squishy (squishier than you) and the progression will hurt bad if you're starting at the low levels (your Eidolon only ups a level at character level 4); seeing how the Summoner class is developed around the Eidolon feature, severing it in half without a significant plus somewhere else is not worth it for me, feels like a Bard who gives up half his Bardic Music versatility and power just so he can punch and play the guitar at once.
CTrees
2011-08-11, 02:22 PM
don't forget that the Summoner entry doesn't mention that the Eidolon follows any and every order from you regardless of dangers to itself, so the DM can actually say that it won't obey you until you can beat Viridian's Gym and claim the earth badge.
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except...
Summoned, not called. Summoned creatures follow any and every order (that they understand/are capable of) from you, regardless of the dangers to themselves.
Starbuck_II
2011-08-11, 02:23 PM
But Master Summoner looks quite bad at any level other than 1st. Even if he makes an skilldolon, the thing will have few ranks due to its half-everything deal, it can act as a minor meatshield, but don't forget that the Summoner entry doesn't mention that the Eidolon follows any and every order from you regardless of dangers to itself, so the DM can actually say that it won't obey you until you can beat Viridian's Gym and claim the earth badge.
That isn't how pokemon works.
If the monster is traded and if it is equal your character level: it might disobey. The badges get around this issue.
But a Master Summoners Eidolon is 1/2 level thus it will never disobey if using pokemon rules.
Cieyrin
2011-08-11, 02:56 PM
The Broodmaster can have some interesting combinations and ways to be used, still I don't see any way it'll be better than a full Eidolon, except for the action economy of picking the lock and fighting at the same time.
But Master Summoner looks quite bad at any level other than 1st. Even if he makes an skilldolon, the thing will have few ranks due to its half-everything deal, it can act as a minor meatshield, but don't forget that the Summoner entry doesn't mention that the Eidolon follows any and every order from you regardless of dangers to itself, so the DM can actually say that it won't obey you until you can beat Viridian's Gym and claim the earth badge.
Even so, it'll be quite squishy (squishier than you) and the progression will hurt bad if you're starting at the low levels (your Eidolon only ups a level at character level 4); seeing how the Summoner class is developed around the Eidolon feature, severing it in half without a significant plus somewhere else is not worth it for me, feels like a Bard who gives up half his Bardic Music versatility and power just so he can punch and play the guitar at once.
Master Summoner is still better than Broodmaster, if only b/c the monsters that are out aren't sharing resources to the detriment of all.
As for the Skilldolon, it's not about the ranks, it's the Skilled Evolution which gives +8 to a skill. Pump mental stats and when they do get levels, they should get a fairly well-rounded number of skills.
Larpus
2011-08-12, 09:52 AM
Did not know that difference between "summoned" and "called", that is nice to know, I've been scared of summoner-types all this time over nothing! Everyone always said how hard it was to bid the critters into doing what you want them to do and all that.
Master Summoner is still better than Broodmaster, if only b/c the monsters that are out aren't sharing resources to the detriment of all.
That depends on whether or not a Broodmaster is forced to split the resources equally, if not maybe there are some nice things to be done with it, possibly on par with Master Summoner because the skilldolon will have full skill ranks.
Though I do agree that until proper math and builds are made it does look like the worse option.
As for the Skilldolon, it's not about the ranks, it's the Skilled Evolution which gives +8 to a skill. Pump mental stats and when they do get levels, they should get a fairly well-rounded number of skills.
Indeed, they do get a nice bonus, at least in the lower levels, but I still believe that a normal Summoner can do it better overall, since it's not hard to make a punchdolon also be a skilldolon or, if you want to do that, rely 100% on Summons for battle and build a 100% skilldolon that only gets summoned when needed.
Zejety
2011-08-17, 05:28 PM
Thank you, your guide really helps me a lot.
But I can't find the "Improved Bite" evolution you suggest for the Chomper.
Do you refer to taking Bite a second time? If yes, what's the point? Doesn't the chomper use 1½ his STR anyway because he only has one natural attack?
WildPyre
2011-08-17, 05:43 PM
Thank you, your guide really helps me a lot.
But I can't find the "Improved Bite" evolution you suggest for the Chomper.
Do you refer to taking Bite a second time? If yes, what's the point? Doesn't the chomper use 1½ his STR anyway because he only has one natural attack?
Maybe it's supposed to be the "Improved Damage" evolution applied to Bite?
Zejety
2011-08-17, 06:16 PM
Maybe it's supposed to be the "Improved Damage" evolution applied to Bite?
Evolutions: Bite, Improved Bite, Improved Damage (Bite), Reach (Bite), Ability Increase (Strength), Trip (Bite), Poison (Bite)
emphasize mine
Nope =(
It's been so long since I wrote it I can't remember what it was originally supposed to be. Probably just a typo.
Catharsis
2011-08-18, 09:59 AM
Good stuff.
I've been thinking of using the Master Summoner archetype, using several summons at once and keeping the (weakened) eidolon as basically a well-defended orbital radar platform, maybe with a wand of magic missile in hand so it can make itself useful.
Is that approach inferior to the regular full-eidolon approach?
Paul H
2011-08-23, 11:45 AM
Hi
First I want to thank the OP for what is obvously a major piece of work, but have they considered the Synthesist (yet)?
Synthesists use brute force as apposed to fighters' tactical training, but are still very powerful.
I'm using one in the PFS campaign. Might have missed a trick in not giving my character Str 13 at 1st lvl. (Human Synthesist 2, Str 12 Dex 13 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 18), but I'll sort that out at 4th lvl. (Taking Pwr Attack at 5th).
Current Evo's Dex & Con, (for Str 17 Dex 15 Con 15), using Gt Sword (Heirloom).
Debating which is best:
1) Synthesist 5/Ninja xxx,
2) Synthesist xxxx
3) Synthesist 5/Oracle 1/Synthesist xxx
Both will have extra arms, so Pwr Attack with 2 weapons each round.
Option 1 grants new weapon profs, can use ki points for special stuff
Option 2 grants full caster levels, better Evo's, but limited to simple weapons (plus the Gt Sword)
Option 3 (Battle Mystery) allows some extra spells, inc (CLW), plus Wpn profs in Martial Wpns, so could wield 2 Gt Swords.
What do people think?
Remember, characters 'retire' at 12th lvl in PFS.
Thanks
Paul H
Gnaeus
2011-08-23, 12:37 PM
I second this. I would also like to see more analysis of the Synthesist. It looks like a good tier 3 melee option, but I'm not sure how it would play.
Sarone
2011-08-23, 01:13 PM
Are you saying you and your Eidolon wielding greatswords?
Paul H
2011-08-23, 02:03 PM
Hi
First - I don't understand what people mean by Tier xx. Can anyone help us out?
Here's a suggestion:
Human Synthesist
Str 13 Dex 13 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 18
1) Dodge, Toughness. EVO (Dex, Nat AC) [Str 16 Dex 14 Con 13 Nat AC 4] Traits; Heirloom Wpn (Gt Sword)
2) EVO (Dex Con) [Str 17 Dex 15 Con 15 Nat AC 4]
3) Pwr ATtack. EVO (Dex, Con, Nat AC) [Str 17, Dex 15, Con 15, Nat AC +6]
4) +1 Cha: EVO (Dex, Con, Extra Arms, Nat AC)
5) Arcane Strike. EVO (Dex, Con, Extra Arms, Flight) [Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16*, Nat AC +6] *Inc +1 for lvl.
6) EVO (Dex, Con, Extra Arms, Flight, Nat AC) [Nat +8]
7) Wpn Prof Nodachi. EVO (Dex, Con, Extra Arms x2, Flight) [Str 19, Dex 17, Nat AC +8]
8) +1 Cha. EVO (Dex, Con, Extra Arms x2, Flight, Nat AC) [Nat AC +10]
9) Cleave. EVO (Dex, Con, Extra Arms x3, Flight, Nat AC)
10) EVO (Dex, Con, Extra Arms x3, Flight, Gills, Swim) [Str 20, Dex 18, Con 17, Nat AC +10]
Items in () are Evolutions. Those in [] are net results.
At Lvl 10 you have 4 Attacks w/Nodachi's, Base AC 25, 161HP (93 Synth + 68 Eidolon, using PFS format).
Thanks
Paul H
Edit: @ Sarone, No - I 'wear' Eidolon, the Eidolon 'wields' Gt Sword.
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