roguish babfail ToB gish with Knowledge Devotion

[begooler]

Starting a new campaign in Eberron at level 5. I'm filling the rogue/expert role. Any advice, loves, or hates on the following?

Human
swordsage 1/wizard 1/spelltheif 1/human paragon 2
Yes, I know, it has a BAB of 1.
Edit: BAB 3 with fractional BAB, normal for rogue.

Feats:
Education (lv1) (for purpose of my many swordage skillpoints at lvl 1 for knowledges)
Deadly Defense (lv1)
Knowledge Devotion (lv3)
Combat Expertise (wizard bonus)
Practiced Spellcaster (Human Paragon bonus)


My important role is to be skill monkey, which I have covered. On non-combat days (which we have many...) I will be using charm person, disguise self, detect thoughts when I get it etc.

The way I'm seeing typical combat working:
Cast Power Word Pain (or instead use first round to get a sneak attack in with a ray spell)
Cast Parching Touch (Sandstorm) (providing up to 5 touches)

Proceed to make attacks with Mighty Throw manuver which would entail:
Melee touch (discharging touch spell, dealing d6 dessication damage, con damage, d6 sneak attack, d6 deadly defense) then resolving trip attempt. Take attack of opportunity to make another touch when subject tries to stand from prone.

And when I don't have spells available I'd be using Sapphire Nightmare Blade and Clinging Shadow Strike manuvers with a rapier, adding knowledge devotion, deadly defense (assuming I can afford the attack penalty) and sneak attack.
Edit: Burning Blade, with regular melee attack roll in combination with Sapphire Nightmare Blade.

Another notable spell is summon undead 1, (to summon a skeletal cervidal) because its fun and scales well with caster level even if your spell progression is slow.

At level 6 I will be going into unseen seer and taking the master spelltheif feat, I also plan on picking up the last level of human paragon at a point, and another level of swordsage. Our party will probably all die of a mundane cause at around level 10.

Question 1) I know that Knowledge Devotion would apply to my attack rolls with touch spells, does it also apply to those damage rolls? It doesn't say just physical weapons.
Question 2) Manuvers + Touch Spells. What can you do with that?
Question 3) Good spells to borrow from the druid and cleric in the party via steal spell. (up to level 1 this level, level 2 spells next level.)

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Knowledge Devotion is one of my skill-monkey favourite feats. The bonus, as far as I know, does apply to touch spell damamge.

[Greenish]

Fractional BAB is your friend.

[Coidzor]

Entangle is a good spell to grab from a druid for a first level spell slot. If you're in an environment where you can use it.

[begooler]

Thanks!

Fractional BAB- will try to convince DM, but he may say no because it would also have to apply to other players, monsters etc. But thank you that will save me.

Entangle, not necessary since we already have a cleric/dragonfire adept which can 'entangle' enemies without affecting allies, which is magnificent.

We are having a milk and cookies session tonight to discuss backstory, motivation, and supplicate to DM so I'm trying to think of anything I'll need to request...

[Dead_Jester]

You definitely should need to ask your DM about letting fractionnal Bab and saves. Otherwise, the game doesn't make any sense. How could someone who is decently trained in combat (3/4 bab) in all his classes, never get a point of bab?

It also fixes the save progression, so you don't get characters with some uber saves and literally nothing in the others.

Also, I think your build is too spread out. It could work if you dropped Human Paragon, because as is, you lose too much raw power/more versatility for more skills, and the first is usually better than the second. And if you are only considering using one or two maneuvers, you could always get them with feats. Unless you want to keep the Swordsage at 1st level for the 6+int x6 skill points ...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ranger + Dungeonscape ACF gets Trapfinding without sacrificing BAB, plus you can use wands of ranger spells. Urban Ranger in UA/SRD can also be used if it would be more fitting.

IMO you should choose to either be a gish or be the party's skillmonkey, because they don't work very well together.

If you want to be a caster/skillmonkey, Illumian (Krau) Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus with Able Learner (Illumians are Humanoid (Human)) and Versatile Spellcaster (spend Beguiler slots to cast Wizard spells) works out rather well. Get Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler before 6th level and you'll get to put 10/10 UM spellcasting toward Wizard, so at level 15 you'll have 14th level Wizard and 8th level Beguiler spellcasting ability, at a higher caster level than your character level. With a high Int score and Able Learner you should be able to keep your ranks up in all the important skills.

For a ToB Gish you should probably use Warblade or even Crusader instead of Swordsage, to get better BAB and combat maneuvers. Go with a standard high BAB/high casting JPM/Abjurant Champion build, you'll be a lot better off. Maybe pick up Leadership if you have to get a trapmonkey, don't gimp your character over getting pigeonholed into that role.

[grarrrg]

You definitely should need to ask your DM about letting fractionnal Bab and saves. Otherwise, the game doesn't make any sense.

It's theoretically possible to build an "All Dip" 20 level char that would have 0-Bab, and +40 Will Save if you DON'T use fractionals.

(maybe not precisely 0 and 40, but very close)

Fractionals are your friend.

[begooler]

Thanks again for the advice.
I like the beguiler/wizard/UM build mentioned a lot, particularly the sneaky way of casting lots of wizard spells and in light armor. It's not quite the character I'm going for but it might be the next one I play. Also, it wouldn't be possible in this campaign, because the DM decided Illumians didn't fit into the setting and able learner happens to be the only feat in an any of the Races/Complete books that he doesn't allow, just because of personal prejudice.

The dip in spellthief is for Master Spelltheif, in order to wear light armor. Trapfinding itself is not actually important with our DM. Knowledges and social skills end up being really critical however.

Warblade would be nice for the BAB, however, the point of the adept dip was for the skill points at first level (which end up in the knowledges, both important for being the expert and for knowledge devotion.) Also, many of the maneuvers this character would be interested in are swordsage only.

Abjurant Champion and/or JPM are already definite considerations, the only thing about the former is having to take Combat Casting. What I really like about JPM with the knowledge devotion is that they get a bonus to knowledges at first level.

I'm interested in knowing if anyone has used a character that used touch spells in combination with maneuvers, also if there are suggestions for good low level spells that scale really well with caster level. (My CL is the same as my HD even though my actual spell progression is slow.)

[dextercorvia]

If you are only taking Swordsage for skills at first level, you know the Beguiler gets the same number right? And he actually has all the knowledge skills in class, so you can get 4 ranks in those off the bat, instead of paying for cross class and still only having 2 ranks.

You can use a touch spell with a strike if you are holding the charge from a previous round. But unless you have two Standard actions or can quicken your spell, you can't cast a touch spell, and initiate a strike in the same round.

Beguiler1/Wizard1/Spellthief1/Wizard+2/UlitmateMagusX

isn't awful. You get Master Spellthief. If you take Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler, you will only lose two levels of Wizard casting, so if you continue that after UM, you will get Nines.

[begooler]

Okay, I'm going to roll up a UM on the side possibly for the next character in this campaign, since we've been making them pretty disposable.

There is actually quite a large difference between swordsage and beguiler's skills at first level, because swordsages, for whatever odd reason multiply skills by 6. (With an int score of 18 and being human, this gives me 64 skill points at first level.) Knowledges are class skills from the Education feat.

I'm not concerned about getting 9th level spells since the character may not last that long. I am thinking about adding a level of beguiler and a couple UM to get more out of the lower level spells that I will have.

Thanks for the build advice, but I really want to know what fun things could be done with the build given. Could I redirect this thread to the following questions?:
-Level 1 and 2 wizard spells fun to use in combination with maneuvers, such as mighty throw, etc. Not necessarily even for, power, just inventive. In or out of combat.
-Above question, applied to level one druid and cleric spells. (borrowed from allies with steal spell)

[grarrrg]

There is actually quite a large difference between swordsage and beguiler's skills at first level, because swordsages, for whatever odd reason multiply skills by 6. (With an int score of 18 and being human, this gives me 64 skill points at first level.) Knowledges are class skills from the Education feat.

It's common thought that the "x6 at first level" on Swordsage is a typo, as that would make it the ONLY class EVER to NOT have x4.

I would like to direct you to the ToB errata but....

[absolmorph]

It's common thought that the "x6 at first level" on Swordsage is a typo, as that would make it the ONLY class EVER to NOT have x4.

I would like to direct you to the ToB errata but....
Oh, come on.
It's just too awesome to take away. Seriously.

[begooler]

I thought it might have been the first time I read it, then I added up the skill points of swordsages that are rolled out in the book and they confirm the same thing. So even if it is, its a consistent typo. DM agrees with it, so I wouldn't pass up the 20 extra skill points!

[kme]

If you still haven't started this campaign I would suggest you to change this character drastically. Why? Because you will, to put it plainly, completely suck.

Starting a new campaign in Eberron at level 5. I'm filling the rogue/expert role. Any advice, loves, or hates on the following?

Human
swordsage 1/wizard 1/spelltheif 1/human paragon 2
Yes, I know, it has a BAB of 1.

Feats:
Education (lv1) (for purpose of my many swordage skillpoints at lvl 1 for knowledges)
Deadly Defense (lv1)
Knowledge Devotion (lv3)
Combat Expertise (wizard bonus)
Practiced Spellcaster (Human Paragon bonus) First, you are forced to take two feats purely to alleviate the problems of your build (education and practiced spellcaster). Now, even with your abysmal BAB you still take deadly defense (which requires -4 to hit for fighting defensively). Combat expertise lowers your attack even further. I presume you took it to use it instead of fighting defensively to trigger Deadly defense but you won't be able to do that until you gain at least two levels (if you planned to take unseen seer next) due to having only 1 BAB.
Knowledge devotion is your only decent feat.
My important role is to be skill monkey, which I have covered. On non-combat days (which we have many...) I will be using charm person, disguise self, detect thoughts when I get it etc. This is your only saving grace but note that you may just as well end up less useful then a UMD rogue or a normal wizard depending on situation.
The way I'm seeing typical combat working:
Cast Power Word Pain (or instead use first round to get a sneak attack in with a ray spell)
Cast Parching Touch (Sandstorm) (providing up to 5 touches)
Power Word Pain is less useful than it seems. You are already level 5, that means you can use it to kill a mook over a 5 rounds, if someone else finishes that mook earlier you may end up with a spell that dealt less damage then magic missile. Any boss or solo monster will probably have more than 50 hp.
Parching touch is simply a bad spell, worse even than chill touch as it cannot be used for panicking undead. Plus, with your bad attack you won't be able to hit even against a touch AC.
Proceed to make attacks with Mighty Throw manuver which would entail:
Melee touch (discharging touch spell, dealing d6 dessication damage, con damage, d6 sneak attack, d6 deadly defense) then resolving trip attempt. Take attack of opportunity to make another touch when subject tries to stand from prone. I suppose you could get your parching touch damage when using mighty throw but you won't get SA or DD damage as you don't deal any damage on trip attempts. Also, you still have to make a melee touch attack first.
And when I don't have spells available I'd be using Sapphire Nightmare Blade and Clinging Shadow Strike manuvers with a rapier, adding knowledge devotion, deadly defense (assuming I can afford the attack penalty) and sneak attack. What is your STR? If it isn't 18 you simply won't hit, even with 18 it will be too low. Knowledge devotion probably isn't enough to make a difference. Clinging Shadow Strike doesn't do anything to increase your chance to hit and Sapphire Nightmare Blade is usable only once per combat and it isn't anything special either.

Another notable spell is summon undead 1, (to summon a skeletal cervidal) because its fun and scales well with caster level even if your spell progression is slow.

At level 6 I will be going into unseen seer and taking the master spelltheif feat, I also plan on picking up the last level of human paragon at a point, and another level of swordsage. Our party will probably all die of a mundane cause at around level 10.

Question 1) I know that Knowledge Devotion would apply to my attack rolls with touch spells, does it also apply to those damage rolls? It doesn't say just physical weapons.
Question 2) Manuvers + Touch Spells. What can you do with that?
Question 3) Good spells to borrow from the druid and cleric in the party via steal spell. (up to level 1 this level, level 2 spells next level.)

My suggestion is to change your build to "spellthief, rogue or swordsage 4/wizard 1" or "spellthief, rogue or swordsage 1/wizard 4". Then continue with unseen seer as you planned.

For feats, change them all except for knowledge devotion or possibly practiced spellcaster if you take the first route (many spells don't get much better with greater CL). What you pick will depend on your build but some basic choices would be weapon finesse, craven and staggering strike or you can focus more on the casting side with metamagic feats (invisible spell may be nice for you, metamagic school focus is also great).

[Greenish]

I thought it might have been the first time I read it, then I added up the skill points of swordsages that are rolled out in the book and they confirm the same thing.Looking at the swordsage starting package, it appears that the human bonus is only quadrupled, while the rest is multiplied by six.

Fancy that.

[begooler]

First, you are forced to take two feats purely to alleviate the problems of your build (education and practiced spellcaster). Now, even with your abysmal BAB you still take deadly defense (which requires -4 to hit for fighting defensively). Combat expertise lowers your attack even further. I presume you took it to use it instead of fighting defensively to trigger Deadly defense but you won't be able to do that until you gain at least two levels (if you planned to take unseen seer next) due to having only 1 BAB.


BAB of 3, STR +2, weapon focus +1, mwk weapon +1 =7
Plus, typically would get flanking +2, an average of +2 or +3 Knowledge Devotion, and an additional +3 STR from Fist of Stone.
With an attack bonus of anywhere between 10-15 I think it will usually be okay to take the combat expertise penalty, though yes, there would situations where I couldn't.
Edit: Touch attacks of course wouldn't have the mwk or WF, but they'd be touch attacks.

Craven is a really nice feat, but is it listed in any books that are not specific to FR?

[kme]

Hm, the fractional BAB is allowed and I also forgot about the free weapon focus from swordsage. That is nice and yes, fist of stone would be much better then parching touch.

I would still ditch the combat expertise and deadly defense. +2 to AC is not much and the bonus damage is only 3.5 on average. This comes with the drawback that you must use finesseable weapons and you can't use those with two hands effectively (except for spiked chain). Change your weapon to a falchion or greatsword. This will boost your damage without reducing your attack and most importantly won't cost you any feats. If you boost your strength or add power attack, the damage will be even greater.

Craven is in champions of ruin. It's a FR book so it's out then.

[begooler]

Okay, I guess I can be convinced of a TH weapon, but I'm sure there's going to be a point I need a free hand and regret it...

Going TH Power Attack one attack option I have is:
Burning Blade maneuver + Full Attack Action with Power Attack + the slam from fist of stone.

Okay, so how would one rule on this: does a slam attack discharge a held touch? What part of the body is actually used for that? And if so, does the precision damage that you would normally be able to add (SA and KD) to either slam or touch get to apply to both of them when they are used at the same time?

[Greenish]

Okay, I guess I can be convinced of a TH weapon, but I'm sure there's going to be a point I need a free hand and regret it...You need a free hand, you take your other hand off the two-hander, a free action. You want to smash something again, you grab the weapon with the free hand, a free action.


Going TH Power Attack one attack option I have is:
Burning Blade maneuver + Full Attack Action with Power Attack + the slam from fist of stone.If your DM rules that slam doesn't require hands, sure.


Okay, so how would one rule on this: does a slam attack discharge a held touch?Yes, as a natural attack it would.

What part of the body is actually used for that?"Appendage" of undefined nature. There's no RAW, but deconstructing monster stat blocks has lead some to conclude that you need a free hand to slam, if you have hands.

And if so, does the precision damage that you would normally be able to add (SA and KD) to either slam or touch get to apply to both of them when they are used at the same time?One attack roll, SA once. You skip the touch attack to deliver the spell with your slam.

[begooler]

I now have a free feat (must be one that can be taken at 1st level with no casting and no BAB OR a fighter bonus with no more than BAB 1) and a new weapon style to choose. The style doesn't mean anything about what maneuvers I would be focusing on, I just need one of them from that school.

1) Style: Stone Dragon. Weapon: Greatsword. Feat: Improved Unarmed Strike
Stone Dragon gives weapon focus to unarmed strike as well as greatsword.
I carry around a big heavy sword, but I'm not defenseless when grappled or when attending the type of social event to which one doesn't bring a greatsword.

2) Style: Diamond Mind. Weapon: Katana. Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard sword.
(Subobtimal because taking a feat just to be proficient with a one handed weapon, that I'm normally going to use two handed anyway.)
I power attack whenever possible, but I've still got a free hand to climb up a ladder, hold a magic item, or stroke DM's anime bone.

3) Style: Shadow Hand. Weapon: Spiked Chain. Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain.
eh... its so cheesy.

4) Style: Pick One. Weapon: Pick one, possibly a 1H weapon that can be used with 2H. Feat: Adaptive Style.


Edit: Went with a falchion, and took Extend Spell to make good use of level one spell Critical Strike, and to later be able to persist several buffs.