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SiuiS
2011-01-23, 10:56 PM
Need some advice, different perspectives.

Character was planned out to be a LN incarnate, And take almost the full progression of Necrocarnate. Because of feats allowable, I am able to enter the PrC at level 6 (incarnate5/necrocarnate1) instead of the usual level 8.

This means I would get all the stuff Necrocarnate is ragged on for one level earlier instead of one level later.

However, I was supposed to be the least optimized party member, specifically to let other players shine (I am ALWAYS de facto leader. Always). I end up with a half-fey warmage 1 and a psion3 (seer) who happens to have taken only 1 combat power. Ego whip is good, but it's all the character has. We have NO combat potential in a game where we were told 1)bring your A-game, because these are your opponents, and 2) SiuiS will not be carrying your weight, this time.

I have my character concept entirely worked out, but circumstances are pushing me more towards combat supremacy; the lesser variant of the batman. Or maybe it's just my natural tendencies, and I should fight the urge? I mean, I play the most awesome tactical character I can every game, and am purposefully playing against type (avoiding asymmetric warfare, magic abuses, generally trying to slog things out instead of crippling enemy action economy) and it's hard not to slip back into being The Wizard. The character herself isn't saying one way or another.
So; Should I drop Necrocarnate, and take full progression of Incarnate? I'd be stronger, have more non-DM being nice essentia, and better powers (Hope outsider telepathy @ 9th). Necrocarnate fits my theme of Law at any cost, and all our souls be darned, but is horribly suboptimal in play. I'm at an impasse.

For ease of decision-making-helping, all pertinent information below. WARNING. Very very long; I've spent three hours typing and formatting this.

Şrenoiğia, the Law (Thren-oh-EE-Th'eeyah)
LN female Tiefling incarnate 3 (tiefling ACL, LA bought off); Merciless (flaw; 1/2level+5 DC to accept surrender, 1/day can be forced to be merciless by DM or fellow player), music lover (flaw; -5 to all saves v. Music effects, cumulative -1/day spent without hearing music, capped at -10 by DM); stoic, 'dispassionate', depressed
Feats:
skill supremacy (spellcraft): +2 ranks(!)
*-having spent three centuries dealing with magic, 'ğia has a deeper understanding than normal of magical theory.

Necrocarnum acolyte: can use Necrocarnum despite alignment.*
*-good/evil are immaterial when there is only ZoolThe Law. Besides, the fluff on Necrocarnum (it's evil because we designers say so!) is... Dumb. So she ignores it.

Perceived Alignment: can 'pretend' alignment is one step different
*-'ğia deals frequently with devils (as archons get preachy and inevitable aren't conversational) and it colors her perceptions, and actions amongst devils. Allows access to [Evil] melds as well

Item Familiar: bonded item gives skill/XP bonus
*-'ğia's command pavilion is all she has left of the only consensual romance she's ever seen. It holds both sentimental value and hideous sway over her.
mechanics-to-RolePlay correlationcommand pavilion: modified/re-fluffed bag of holding II/portable hole. 5x5x7 tent (think camp shower) with hidden tapestries which open into extradimensional rooms; a bedroom, a storage room (usually stuffed with divans, cushions and a small table with flatware), an armory, and a treasury. Fits WBL through creation in backstory. The small touch of civilization that has kept Şrenoiğia sane throughout her campaigns. Adds a bit of oomph when dealing with enemies on the front lines, due to posh factor.

Equipment: scimitar (or incarnate weapon) large wooden shield (scarred by enemy attacks) modified thistledown/shadow-weave padded armor (ninja suit) and harness of scales (light armor, roughly equ. to chain shirt). Sleek, silent, and intimidating while providing full function. Fits snugly, enhancing curves while hiding muscle-ey soldier bulk.

Necrocarnum circlet: source of body guard, and method of severe punishment. Undead are considered to have not "aged" so a zombie who has been dead for less than one round can be slain days later and brought back with revivify. 'ğia considers this a forced form of community service, and will sentence guilty enemies to so much time as an unflagging obedient servant of Law. after their sentence is up, she will have them revived (Necrocarnum zombies retain intelligence, so have memories of their experiences).

Crystal masks: competence bonus items. Draconic warg Warmask (+2 intimidate, sense motive), smooth, mirrored opera style Diplomask (+2 diplomacy, bluff), sheer crystal (think soul calibur) half mask, with "wings" of crystal forming on bridge of nose, fanning over the eyes and flaring out over the ears (+2 listen, use magic device) for nights at the opera.
Back Story

300+ year old albino-esque tiefling with small, unicorn-style horns one inch long. Born to an erinyes and the Septarch of the Spiral Tower (a title held by the archfey of magic, and world's most premiere archmage) on the second layer of hell. As the father was expecting either a half-fey abomination, or some similar overly-templated unique creature, şrenoiğia's tiefling status left him unable to find the child before counter measures were taken by Dispater.
Dispater took 'ğia under his wing as insurance against the Septarch (one of two creature to enter into Nessus by force, and leave under their own power) and used her as an enforcer. Her training, magical talent and temperament led to 'ğia seeing law as necessary, and tyranny as the lesser evil of a choice between tyranny and anarchy.
During her first 50 years or so, 'ğia fell in with a wizard of some repute, who worked closely with Dispater's armies. The two became quick lovers, the wizard (whose name I have sadly forgotten- this guy showed up in a supplement, and I snatched it up because it jived with my current story) was infatuated by so naive a creature being part of Hell, and 'ğia had all sorts of fun with someone who didn't think baby-flesh was gourmet. Sadly, the wizard plotted a coup, and let it slip during pillow talk. The devastation wrought by such a rebellion would echo through Hell for years, and the power structure would be destroyed.
A week before the coup was to occur, a full quarter of Dispater's subjects were put to the sword, the wizard was found dead in his bed, his throat slit- and şrenoiğia received a Medal of Commendation on the steps of the Iron Tower.

Current Personality
'ğia has spent hundreds of years tearing down kind-hearted but weak governments, strengthening thieves guilds because they were the ruling authority in the community, assassinating benevolent and tyrannical dictators alike. Hundreds of years putting duty and Law before anything else, 'ğia now harbors a secret fear that she's too far beyond hope of a normal life. There is no old age for an immortal, no retirement, no love and no family to settle down with; she killed the only man to ever have loved her. Now, there is only an eternity of Duty, never relenting. 'ğia soldiers on, because doing her job covers up the worry, and when there is no hope left, Duty is all one has. The dark nights bring thoughts of the past, and 'ğia has turned to music to express herself.
'ğia is blunt and dispassionate. Unless agitation causes her facade to crack, she fights, negotiates and lives silently. She wears a collection of crystal masks as though they were veils, and feels uncomfortable with others being able to see her whole face. She will stand guard, fight or travel through everything from hurricanes to blizzards and sandstorms, seeing to safety only long enough to continue.
She has a rich inner world, orchestrated with beauty and precision, however. She adores music, it's composition and passions, and falls asleep to a small jeweled music box each night. Of course, this rarely shows, and 'ğia despairs of ever being understood as anything but an unfeeling automaton- most people view her outbursts of emotion as mockery, rather than genuine enthusiasm.
Code Of Conduct

I- deal fairly with everyone; both loop-holes and Good Faith are acceptable; using them to avoid obligation is not.

II- respect the laws and customs of all institutions that do not conflict with The Law. In cases of conflict, laws/customs take precedence as
Individual < kingdom < dominion < layer/planet < plane

III- when working as Arbitor, Enforcer or Executor, one can be exempt from laws and customs provided this exemption aids in arbitration, enforcement or execution of The Law.

IV- when acting as Founder, Mediator or Errator, local law and custom is to be observed within the functions of founding, mediating or editing said laws, Good Faith extended.

V- use of force is to commensurate with the situation, group or individual requiring said use. The established clause of the Continuum of Force is to be followed with exceptions of escalation, de-escalation, prejudice and provable motive.
*-i: Compliance
A- verbal control permissible
*-ii: Passive Resistance
A- verbal control permissible
B- Minor physical control as required
C- non-lethal actions and constraint of local law/custom mandatory
*-iii: Active Resistance
A- force permissible
B- compliance acquisition (restraint, pain response, hostages) permissible as needed
C- accountability to local authority mandatory
*-iv: Beligierent (harassment)
A- combat action as necessary
B- pacification as required
C- spectators to be assessed via continuum
** -a: accomplices detained as Belligerents
** -b: spectators & bystanders detained as passive Resistance
*-v: Belligierent (lethal)
A- lethal force as necessary
B- collateral damage as required
C- accountability to local authority to be considered on individual basis
D- spectators to be assessed via continuum
E- arena of engagement secured as necessary

In cases where it is made clear that the presence of the Enforcer/Executor constrains but does not stop unLawful activity, or where premeditation and/or continued interference with execution of Duty is indicated by Belligerents, local law and custom may be suspended, allowing the Enforcer/Executor to detain, judge and execute Belligerents accordingly.

---
As an example of the CoC in action;
The characters ('Ğia included) were illegally captured by slavers. *'Ğia is required to act at level 4 of the continuum with prejudice- belligerents have indicated that they not only intend to continue their illegal activities but will actively oppose*'Ğia as Enforcer and Executor of Law, and may be killed with impunity in combat or potential combat situations. Their organization sits at level 5, with Prejudice, as it seeks to supplant the law of the land through slavery and brigandry, and will kill to maintain position without holding authority to do so.

However, the slaves were purchased (legally) and any damage or escape attempt must consider the buyer as innocent, and provide reparations accordingly, as he falls at level 1- compliance. He is not at fault for purchasing slaves (a lawful, regulated activity) nor for being fooled into purchasing 'hot' goods, and his investment should be protected.
On Depression and Duty
I have nothing to look forward to. Nothing.
At all.

I am immortal. When you grow old, have children, wither and die I will be here. When your grandchildren's grandchildren wither and die, unless killed I will be here. Take a moment to think of what that's like. There is no old age, there is no peace. No retirement. For as long as I live, I fight.
Sometimes I get depressed. Who doesn't? Everyone toils. Sure it gets to me sometimes. The horror of my life, all I've done, I will do. It sinks in and I despair. Sometimes I wonder why I bother. Why don't I just kill myself? Well, get killed. Try to do something I know I won't succeed at- dying passively isn't something I can see myself doing- and paying that most ultimate of tolls?

Death? No. Death is just as bad. Worse. When I die, I will find myself Aware for thirty seconds to five minutes. My soul's light, beckoning as a beacon, will draw them to me. I will be harvested, harnessed. My 'body' and mind, heart and soul, all of it. I will be torn down to extremes, to nothingness, and fastened into a cold metal suit, wherein forever I shall travel and toil, setting right injustice and enforcing cosmic law. I will be Inevitable.
But this is a demotion. Do you see? Now, alive and well, living; breathing. I breathe in, I breathe out. We are sitting together, you and I.
And I do nothing. See, I have will. Freedom. Freedom is a lie, but it's my lie. Were I to die, nothing about what I do would change. I would be no longer the soldier, but a soldier's tool. Unable to act on my own. No, death has no reward for me.

Or perchance I have stepped once too many times down that dark road, travelled the Path Sinister. My soul would await flagellation and pain, everything stripped from me. Like a horse, I would be broken, and then remoulded into something else, something worse. Hell is big on irony- I would probably be a messenger, a courier or courtier, and still not fulfill my purpose. Another eternity watching my work crumble in back rooms and opium dens.

Or the biggest joke of all. Maybe there is a Greater Good after all, and I can sit on the slopes of heaven, bathing in it's light until the passion is burned from my eyes and my Will is rent from my soul. Always smiling, never blinking, I would travel the world as a spent casing, an empty shell punishing all who are not like me. One mind, one heart, one Good; an ineffable and dispensable winged slave to an institution I despise.
No, this is my heaven, this is my reward. Here, I can take a break. A concert overnight. A week at sea. Drinks with... well, acquaintances. The bleary fugue of a long march, driving out pain and pleasure alike.
Sure, I lose hope sometimes. I despair. But when there is no hope, there is still my Duty. I've got a job to do, and that job doesn't give a damn how I feel, what I've done, who I've loved. It cares about completion, and I'll be damned if I'll give it the satisfaction and a chance to sneer at me.

rayne_dragon
2011-01-23, 11:13 PM
Should I drop Necrocarnate, and take full progression of Incarnate?

From my understanding you've been told not to optimize and to play against your type, so since Necrocarnate fits your character better anyways, you should stick with it, no matter how suboptimal you think the class and party are.

big teej
2011-01-23, 11:47 PM
From my understanding you've been told not to optimize and to play against your type, so since Necrocarnate fits your character better anyways, you should stick with it, no matter how suboptimal you think the class and party are.

+1

if you're trying not to optimize (or intentionally crippling yourself) and you KNOW what the less optimal choice is

ye should take it.

also
IMHO, if there are two options for your character concept, and option A fits PERFECT but is less optimal than option B which fits 'good, but nowhere near as divinely perfect as option A'

you should pick option A
faith to concept trumps optimization.
every.
time.*



*this is simply my personal stance, and by no means the 'correct one'

Zaq
2011-01-23, 11:55 PM
Topic be damned, I applaud your choice of using both a thorn and an eth in your name. Most classy.

That said, I think that your best bet is honestly going to be to talk to your fellow players. Try very hard not to get preachy and all "god, your characters suck" on them, but explain your concerns and why you're worried. If you're worried that you might not be able to do so in a nonpreachy manner, ask your GM to help you out and back you up. It sounds like your party is threatening to force you out of what you want to do just to save their skins . . . so see if you can't arrange it so that their skins need less saving.

Edit: I might add that you should consider changing this topic's title. I came in here expecting to roll my eyes at some good old-fashioned "I don't think this is Stormwind, but and I'm right, so how do you do it?" I'm quite pleasantly surprised at what you [I]are talking about, but right now the title makes it sound like optimization and RP are at odds with each other (when really, it's your party's lack of optimization that's the problem). Just a thought.

Escheton
2011-01-24, 12:43 AM
It seems your fellow player are catering to their own personality too much. While it is obvious that their own character will not fare well as an adventurer. And in a game where they are to bring their (combat-) A game they ought to build more dashing(combat capable) characters. Be it outside their comfortzone or not.
They (probably)chose not to because they are used to being bailed out.

As such I recommend you talk to the dm and have everything go normally.
Followed by the inevitable reroll when your party gets slaughtered.
Then either restart with the same character you had at the tpk, and have your fellow players reroll. Or make a fallguy character for the tpk, then roll this one when your fellow players are more likely to build survivable characters.
I advice making that full incarnate first, male.
Then reroll the thiefling goth necro.

SiuiS
2011-01-24, 06:23 AM
Using the Eth and thorn was a way to play off of
A) having an ear for music, and as such, sounds
B) reflect the torturously precise nature of infernal as a language
C) sigh and labourously correct my fellow party members when they inevitably mispronounce the name. And make a point of forgiving them, since they're so young and all ;)

I've thought about the answers and y'all are right- the way is clear. Stick to Necrocarnate. Unless doing so would be inorganic, of course.
We haven't played since I got my 3rd class level (party member who was ambushed has had to work, so we took 2 weeks off), and I'm less certain we are screwed. Running numbers, I think I just inherently want to dominate, though I promised myself (and the DM) I wouldn't.
3rd level boosted my essential cap, grants incarnum radiance, and an additional 5-10 HPs. I can now reliably tank if I want to survive, myself, and still let the rest of the party die if they deserve it (then revive them of course). Coupled with the Psion taking expanded knowledge: touch of health (via retraining) and the warmage doing 2 dice of damage with spells now, we should be ok. Every fight will almost kill someone, but that should just make it exhilarating.

Thanks all, I really appreciate the feedback. And I'll consider a different title ;P

ajkkjjk52
2011-01-24, 12:15 PM
faith to concept trumps optimization.
every.
time.


Amen. This should be the first sentence of every character-building guide.