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View Full Version : PO with a Warblade//Factotum [3.5, Gestalt]



Essence_of_War
2011-01-24, 02:08 AM
I'm building a character for a gestalt game subject to the following conditions:

Conditions:
32 pt buy, 15th level, gestalt, LA/RHD off of one side, available base classes: Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Hexblade, Swashbuckler, Ninja, Scout, Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade, Factotum. Wound/Vitality variant, armour as DR, defense bonus, bell curve rolls, weapon groups. Most non-casting 3.5 content available if used responsibly (factotum's SLA's likely will be replaced).

Whew, quite a mouthful.

Planning to play a Draconic(+1 LA template) Human WB15//Factotum 14 LA 1
with the following stats(base->race->levels):
16 -> 18 -> 21
12
16 -> 18
14
10
8 -> 10

Feats:
Imp Initiative
Adaptive Style
Power Attack
Exotic Weapon Prof.
Imp. Bull Rush
Leap Attack
Shock Trooper
Combat Exp
Imp. Trip
Knockdown

I've got a pretty good idea on how to pick maneuvers from the WB handbook, I'm focusing on WR/DM with an IH splash to try to nab IHSurge as the rest of the team is very melee oriented.

Questions:
I sort of want to fit in combat reflexes and use an item to boost my dex so I can wear Mithril Plate, and get AoO, but I'm one feat short. Shave improved initiative for combat reflexes? Should I cut something else for Robilar's Gambit if I'm doing that? I feel like if I'm not doing a ton of tripping through knockdown that I'm not taking full advantage of my Brains over Brawn.

I've picked the feats for the charger line, but it isn't obvious to me that charging is really what I want to be doing. It seems like investing heavily in getting extra attacks and battlefield control through Robilar's Gambit and Knockdown is a better strategy. Although, considering I plan to use WRT a lot, I'm not even sure how I could get a better line of play than just dropping WRT each round for the first 3 rounds interlaced with Cunning Surges to refresh maneuvers.

Keld Denar
2011-01-24, 02:19 AM
I'd drop Adaptive Style if you need a feet. Its better for Swordsage's than Warblades or Crusaders. You'll generally have your set group of maneuvers readied, and if you get into a combat where a maneuver you don't have readied would be really helpful, you're generally better off using what you have and powering through it than burning a whole full round action to get it. Warblade's already have a great recovery mechanism where you can recover everything as a swift action, you don't need another.

mabriss lethe
2011-01-24, 02:41 AM
If PrCs are allowed, then I might suggest a 2 level dip on the factotum side into chameleon. The reason is for that tasty, tasty bonus feat that you can swap out every day. you have to take the feat Able learner so you take a crap feat and gain a flexible feat slot in return. Not a bad trade. Using Chameleon's Arcane focus (especially if the Factotum's SLAs are being replaced) you'll have access to second level wizard/sorcerer spells. Which nets you Heroics 1/day (more if you get second level pearls of power.) Heroics nets you a temporary feat from the fighter's list for 10 minutes/caster level. So you lose a feat to gain two feats.

You might choose to cut out Exotic Weapon Proficiency, since it quite often isn't worth the feat (with a few notable exceptions) That may or may not be viable, I have no idea what exotic weapon you're planning to use...On second thought, with the warblade's abilities in mind, EWP is a decent choice.

You won't necessarily need Improved Initiative. With your Int going to initiative thanks to Factotum, you'll already be pretty freaking quick on the draw. I'd ditch it.

You might nix adaptive style as well, if you're still feeling feat starved. It's nice, but not grand for a warblade. the warblade has a rather nice recovery mechanic and has so few maneuvers known that you'll be readying almost all of them anyway.

Essence_of_War
2011-01-24, 10:22 AM
Thanks for the advice guys, if I cut Imp Ini and Adaptive style that opens up Combat Expertise + Robilar's Gambit. As long as I've got some gloves of dex that should be pretty ballin :smallbiggrin:

I don't think I'll miss much with adaptive style either. I have so much fewer maneuvers known than a swordsage, that it looks like I can just ready my fave counters and still have several good strikes/WRT for the day.

Escheton
2011-01-24, 11:12 AM
Get fortification items/enchantments asap. 1 crit can kill you using this system. Tankbuild or not.

Essence_of_War
2011-01-24, 11:15 AM
I am very scared of crits, one of the reasons I like Factotum is the Cunning Dodge ability. I'm planning on buying the heaviest fortification armor that I can afford.

I was also considering maybe a contingent greater stoneskin spell that will trigger on "a critical hit". Is that a legitimate trigger? I think crits will luckily be much more rare considering we're using the bell curve system.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-24, 11:21 AM
If PrCs are allowed, then I might suggest a 2 level dip on the factotum side into chameleon. The reason is for that tasty, tasty bonus feat that you can swap out every day. you have to take the feat Able learner so you take a crap feat and gain a flexible feat slot in return. Not a bad trade. Using Chameleon's Arcane focus (especially if the Factotum's SLAs are being replaced) you'll have access to second level wizard/sorcerer spells. Which nets you Heroics 1/day (more if you get second level pearls of power.) Heroics nets you a temporary feat from the fighter's list for 10 minutes/caster level. So you lose a feat to gain two feats.


It's very doubtful that if all casting classes are banned, down to the Factotum's SLAs, that the DM will allow a Chameleon for picking up Arcane/Divine Focus.

OP: As noted, nix Imp. Init and Adaptive Style. If you're Shocktroopering, you definitely want to pick up Robilar's Gambit, and grab Combat Reflexes with your other now-open feat slot.

Escheton
2011-01-24, 11:24 AM
The threat range of nat 20(the most common form) is 16-18. Which is still pretty high if you ask me.
19-20 and becomes 15-18, 18-20 and 17-20 becomes 14-18. With 15-20 being 13-18
Especially seeing the wound variant cuts down all crit mods to x2, enhancing threat range.

I would not be suprised if you have a nigh-lethal crit against you each session. DR or not.

Essence_of_War
2011-01-24, 11:51 AM
Oh wow. For some reason I thought that a 20 would map to an 18, a 19-20 to a 17-18 etc.

Yeah...I need the highest fortification armor I can afford. I think between fortification and cunning dodge, I should be mostly out of the woods, as long as I keep open enough IPs to negate damage in a bad situation.

Thanks for the advice on the feat swap everyone. I'm going to post a tentative equipment/maneuver list, I'd continue to appreciate comments.

Keld Denar
2011-01-24, 12:18 PM
If you use the rules from the A&EG, you can get total fortification for a mear 36,000g on a set of Bracers of Armor. The armor bonus won't stack with your existing armor bonus, but the fortification effect is really what you are going for.

Otherwise, there's a gem in the Draconomnomnomnomicon, but you'll have to pay for the spellcasting services of a wizard to get a Limited Wish to implant the gem in your skin.

Alternatively, play a Changeling, and swap one of those Factotum levels for a level of Warshaper (CWar). As long as you look different from yourself, you'll be able to make yourself immune to crits and SA all day long.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-24, 02:51 PM
"Most non-casting 3.5 content available if used responsibly" probably wouldn't include Factotum Warshaper cheese.

Draconic is extremely weak, but I would definitely take a worthwhile level adjustment in this game, preferably something that provides survivability or sustainability. Since spellcasting is out the window, healing will be hard to come by apart from Devoted Spirit. Shadow Creature in Lords of Madness grants Fast Healing 2, Evasion, Shadow Blend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadowMastiff.htm), and a lot of other useful benefits for only a +2 LA. Mineral Warrior (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) is a +1 LA that grants DR 8/Adamantine, natural armor, a burrow speed, and some decent ability score bonuses, it's usually worth taking for a combat-focused character. Half-Dragon would be better than Draconic, especially if you get the feat Dragon Breath in Races of the Dragon, so you can use your breath attack every 1d4 rounds instead of only 1/day. If you start out with a large size race, such as Half-Ogre in Races of Destiny (+2 LA), you'll get wings and a fly speed from Half-Dragon.

I'm just wondering what threat range a Kaorti Resin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) Scimitar would have under vitality and wounds. It gets a x4 crit, so that normally goes to 18-20, but it already has 18-20... The usual 20/x4 gets improved by two numbers to hit 18-20, so would it get taken to a 16-20 natural threat range? Would the Keen property then make it 11-20?

Essence_of_War
2011-01-24, 05:49 PM
Updated build: Half-Ogre Half-Dragon Factotum 11//WB15

Base->HalfOgre->HalfDragon->StatUps->items
16 -> 22 -> 30 -> 33 -> 37
12 -> 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 14
16 -> 18 -> 20 -> 20 -> 20
14 -> 12 -> 14 -> 14 -> 18
10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 10
8 -> 6 -> 8 -> 8 -> 8

Feats:
Power Attack
Exotic Weapon Prof.
Imp. Bull Rush
Leap Attack
Shock Trooper
Combat Exp
Imp. Trip
Knockdown
Combat Reflexes
(taking Robilar's Gambit at next opportunity)

Maneuvers:
1 - Moment of Perfect Mind (DM, Counter) ;
2 - Wall of Blades (IH, Counter); Emerald Razor (DM, strike)
3 - WRTactics (WR, Boost) ; IHSurge
4 - Lightning Recovery (IH, counter); RNBlade (DM, strike)
5 -
6 - Order Forged from Chaos (WR) ; Manticore Parry (IH, counter)
7 - Swarming Assault (WR, strike) ; Finishing Move (IH, Boost)
8 - WRHammer (WR,strike)

Maneuvers Readied:
Wall of Blades (IH, Counter)
Moment of Perfect Mind (DM, Counter)
WRTactics (WR, Boost)
Order Forged from Chaos (WR)
WRHammer (WR,strike)
Swarming Assault (WR, strike)

Stances:
Hunter's Sense, Punishing Stance, Press the Advantage

Equipment:
3x +4 items (str, int, dex) = 48k
Cloak of Resistance +5 = 25k
+1 Mithril Full Plate Armor, Soulfire + Moderate Fortification (total +8(49k), +9k(mithril) +1k (full plate) = 74k
Shirt of Continuous Lesser Vigor (1x1x2kx4) = 8k
+4 Adamantine Spiked Chain = 35k
Heward's Handy Haversack = 2k
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 = 2k
Ring of Deflection +1 = 2k
Ring of Sustenance = 2.5k
Steadfast Boots = 1.4k

Mundane Items to fill the haversack.

Attack with spiked chain looks like +15+4+14 = +33 at 2d4+4+19 damage
On a LA+PA+Heedless Charge, we get +35 and 2d4+4+19+(30*3) = 2d4+103

AC looks like: 10+(8 racial) + 9 (armor) +2 (dex) - 1 (size) + 1 + 1 = 30, not abysmal, but quite dangerous against the iteratives of big toughs. Reach, size, knockdown, and excellent trip mods, + press the advantage makes it likely that I can keep big dumbies locked-down though.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-24, 06:23 PM
Half-Dragon Half-Ogre is LA +5, you only have it occupying four levels.

I'd go Warblade 1/ Fighter 2/ Warblade+, and use the Dungeoncrasher ACF. That way you can have a 3rd level stance, I'd replace Punishing with Absolute Steel. With the bonus feat you pick up you can shuffle some stuff around to get Knockback from Races of Stone. Hit someone, Knockdown, Knockback, and if you're flying above them you can Dungeoncrasher them against the ground. If you're not flying your AoOs will knock an opponent prone and knock them back, so they'll have to spend a move action to get up and another move action to get back into melee effectively wasting an enemy's turn with every AoO you make.

begooler
2011-01-24, 06:48 PM
If you think the DM is going to want to substitute your casting ability, why not suggest you get to use the spell slots for more maneuvers readied, or better yet, the ability to learn extra maneuvers.

Tael
2011-01-24, 07:11 PM
Remember, this is 3d6, so there is only a 1 in 216 chance of you getting a nat 18. A Crit range of 18-16 actually has a 4.7% chance of critting on a given roll, which is actually lower than 20's 5% chance. 18-15 is still a lower chance, with a 9.3% chance of occurring in stead of a 10% chance. At 18-14 you are finally getting 1.2% percent ahead of d20 with a 16.2% chance instead of 15%, but 13-20 is down to only 0.9% ahead of d20's static 25% chance.

tl;dr: Bell curve is actually less likely to crit unless you have a really high crit weapon, but even then, it's only 1% more.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-24, 09:32 PM
If you want to go all-out, you could drop Factotum and go LA +5/ War Hulk 10 next to Warblade. That would be another +20 Strength, you can throw boulders so that they tumble over multiple opponents at once, and every attack you make hits every opponent you threaten. Get three attacks/round, hit everything within reach three times. Drop one opponent, your cleave attack hits everything you threaten. Someone provokes an AoO, your swing hits everything you threaten.

Essence_of_War
2011-01-24, 10:01 PM
Biff,
I had actually considered the Warhulk plan earlier, but I thought that the factotum would help me play nicely with a group by helping to spam maneuvers like WRT or Order from Chaos.


Begooler,
I'm trying to swap Arcane Dilettante for additional maneuvers readied/known in some combination.

Endarire
2011-01-24, 10:38 PM
Consider Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon). You're highly mobile, very damaging, and versatile in your build. Just take Battle Jump and Leap of the Heavens.

Ask your DM if you can use psionic feats. If so, Up the Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls) is tremendous!