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Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-24, 02:28 AM
As mentioned earlier (in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184428) I'm designing a swordsage/warlock character, and it looks like I'll be joining a new, low-level campaign, so I may have the opportunity to try her out soon :smallbiggrin:.

I was having a little trouble deciding on what level 1 maneuvers to pick though, but I thought Wolf Fang Strike looked pretty cool, if only really useful as a mobile (combined with move action) attack. The same kind've goes for the Hideous Blow invocation; since taking both would probably be redundant, which would you recommend, and why?

Keld Denar
2011-01-24, 02:40 AM
Hideous Blow...blows...hideously. It provokes, if you try to use it in melee, and thats about all you need to know.

So, the correct answer to that question is ANYTHING but Hideous Blow.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-24, 02:51 AM
Hideous Blow...blows...hideously. It provokes, if you try to use it in melee, and thats about all you need to know.

So, the correct answer to that question is ANYTHING but Hideous Blow.

Nonono, Hideous Blow isn't as bad as all that; it does not provoke attacks of opportunity, for one thing: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19520666/Warlock_Faq_by_Rich_Baker.

mabriss lethe
2011-01-24, 02:51 AM
seconding Keld Denar. Hideous Blow is a terrible invocation. You have to be in melee range to use it, it provokes attacks of opportunity when you do use it, and on top of that, it's not a touch attack, but a standard melee attack roll.

You're far better off using your invocation for either defense or utility. Baleful utterance is never a bad choice for utility/debuff. Entropic warding is a decent defensive choice at low levels. Darkness can be useful if you've got access to Drow of the Underdark and the tasty Darkness sla feats inside.

EDIT TO ADD: From Complete Arcane

A warlock’s invocations are spell-like abilities; using an
invocation is therefore a standard action that provokes attacks
of opportunity

From CA errata:

Invocations and Eldritch Blast: Eldritch blast is an
invocation. Other invocations provide a warlock with
the ability to modify his eldritch blast or add new
eldritch attacks.

From the strictest of RAW, HB does provoke, even if the designers didn't realize it to begin with. If your DM lets it slide, hey, go for it. It still has the downside of requiring a standard action (which would allow boosts, but no strikes via ToM material) Many of those same boosts would still be viable with Eldritch glaive, which gives you reach and can be used in a manner that grants you multiple attacks per round once your BAB is high enough.

Cadian 9th
2011-01-24, 03:37 AM
Wolf Fang Strike gives you 2 attacks, Hideous blow gives you one stronger attack. I'd rather Wolf Fang Strike, to be honest. More attack = less chances to stuff up and fail to contribute.

Kuma Kode
2011-01-24, 03:48 AM
Nonono, Hideous Blow isn't as bad as all that; it does not provoke attacks of opportunity, for one thing: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19520666/Warlock_Faq_by_Rich_Baker. By RAW, there is nothing at all in Hideous Blow's description that mentions it is any different than normal invocations, which provoke attacks of opportunity. Also, while I have seen the post you linked to, the FAQ says

Does hideous blow provoke an attack of opportunity?
Yes. As a spell-like ability, using hideous blow provokes
attacks of opportunity just as any other spell-like ability would.
A warlock who relies on this invocation should consider
investing ranks in the Concentration skill so that he can use it
defensively.
Note that the act of using the invocation, not the act of
making the attack, draws the attack of opportunity, since the
warlock delivering hideous blow is considered “armed” (just
like a spellcaster delivering a touch spell).

true_shinken
2011-01-24, 06:41 AM
Dude, forget about Hideous Blow. It sucks.
Eldritch Claw is so much better.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-24, 11:26 AM
By RAW, there is nothing at all in Hideous Blow's description that mentions it is any different than normal invocations, which provoke attacks of opportunity. Also, while I have seen the post you linked to, the FAQ says

By RAW, there is not, but in the link I provided Rich Baker (the writer of the class) answers:
Q: Does using Hideous Blow in melee provoke an attack of oppertunity?

A: Hideous Blow does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Andy Collins will clarify that in an upcoming Sage Advice.

It was intended to be a clear exception to the standard rules for invocations.


Wolf Fang Strike gives you 2 attacks, Hideous blow gives you one stronger attack. I'd rather Wolf Fang Strike, to be honest. More attack = less chances to stuff up and fail to contribute.

True, and if I could use Improved trip with an unarmed attack as part of WFS, then it would be this cool leg-sweeping kick/stab combo, like you might see in a Soul Calibur game, and that would be awesome. Is there any reason you can't trip as part of WFS?

On the other hand, Hideous Blow is more powerful (depending of course on how many warlock levels are taken); if you think of it as a scaling, low-level 'strike' which is made more versatile by potential eldritch essences, and can be further empowered by metamagic, it suddenly doesn't look quite as bad, ne?

Edit:
Dude, forget about Hideous Blow. It sucks.
Eldritch Claw is so much better.

It's really only better if you're making multiple attacks though; as a single, mobile attack, hideous blow could easily be better if you're using a weapon instead, particularly if the weapon has some nice magical abilities of it's own (imagine something awesome, like walking up to the troll warlord and saying: "I draw my greatsword as I approach and smite the beast with a Stygian Hellfire Blow!"). Plus there's the fact that Eldritch Claws is third party, which unfortunately means that DMs are less likely to accept it.

true_shinken
2011-01-24, 11:35 AM
On the other hand, Hideous Blow is more powerful
Don't take hideous blow. Take eldritch glaive. That means you have a reason to actually have 2 weapons for WFS... and you get the surprise effect.
"He only has two weapons. I'll stay 10-ft away from him and avoid full-attack!"
*VOOOOOOOM* (Eldritch glaives sounds like lightsabers, that's a scientifically proven fact) *VOOOOOM*
"Oh, damn. He nearly killed me. Nevermind, I'll charge, that's just some Warlock-y thing, he can't get attacks of opportunity-"
*VOOOOOOOM*
Melee Warlock: "It's almost beneath me."

Tael
2011-01-24, 12:14 PM
With Hideous Blow you get:

1 and only 1 attack
The attack provokes AoO's by RAW
The attack is not a touch attack


With Eldritch Glaive you get:

As many attacks as you can get with your BAB
Not only does your attack not provoke, but you also threaten
The attacks are all touch attacks


Now let's see, I wonder which one...

Also, Eldritch Claw is my personal favorite, as it is even more awesome looking than the Glaive, and kicks ass with Beast Strike. And if you can get your DM to ignore the AoO from the Hideous Blow, you can get them to allow Eldritch Claws.

Sucrose
2011-01-24, 12:29 PM
I would personally strongly recommend Wolf Fang Strike. Hideous Blow isn't much better than it at low levels (if, indeed, it's better at all), and, unlike Wolf Fang Strike, cannot be ditched for something more powerful as you level up. I'd second the recommendation to use your invocation for utility or defense, but also suggest that you look into mobility, with the Spider Climb invocation. The ability to traverse a dungeon upside down should not be overlooked.:smallwink:

Kuma Kode
2011-01-24, 12:52 PM
...and, unlike Wolf Fang Strike, cannot be ditched for something more powerful as you level up... Invocations cannot be swapped for something of a higher grade, no, but they can be swapped. Once hideous blow becomes a liability (if it isn't already), you can swap it for something else, possibly the spiderwalking invocation or something with greater utility at higher levels than lower, such as See the Unseen.

true_shinken
2011-01-24, 12:52 PM
Hideous Blow isn't much better than it at low levels (if, indeed, it's better at all), and, unlike Wolf Fang Strike, cannot be ditched for something more powerful as you level up.
Well, that much is untrue. Yeah, Hideous Blow blows goats for pocket change, but you can swap it at level 6, like any other least invocation.

Sucrose
2011-01-24, 01:02 PM
Invocations cannot be swapped for something of a higher grade, no, but they can be swapped. Once hideous blow becomes a liability (if it isn't already), you can swap it for something else, possibly the spiderwalking invocation or something with greater utility at higher levels than lower, such as See the Unseen.

Huh. Really? Guess it's been a while since I played a Warlock. Still, I do continue to recommend Wolf Fang Strike, for the more valid reasons others have already stated, and because it opens up the excellent Sudden Leap maneuver for first-level acquisition.

true_shinken
2011-01-24, 01:24 PM
Huh. Really? Guess it's been a while since I played a Warlock. Still, I do continue to recommend Wolf Fang Strike, for the more valid reasons others have already stated, and because it opens up the excellent Sudden Leap maneuver for first-level acquisition.

Repeat after me, here we go: Sudden Leap is all shades of awesome!

MeeposFire
2011-01-24, 02:27 PM
Sudden Leap is all shades of awesome!

Hey stop that!

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-24, 05:41 PM
Huh. Really? Guess it's been a while since I played a Warlock. Still, I do continue to recommend Wolf Fang Strike, for the more valid reasons others have already stated, and because it opens up the excellent Sudden Leap maneuver for first-level acquisition.

Woah woah woah! You're telling me you have to take a strike to take boosts (currently AFB)? Awhoops... (this is my first time playing a ToB character)

If that's true then I guess I have my answer right there, but answer me this: can you use special combat maneuvers (trip, disarm, etc) with the attacks granted by Wolf Fang Strike?

tyckspoon
2011-01-24, 06:03 PM
True, and if I could use Improved trip with an unarmed attack as part of WFS, then it would be this cool leg-sweeping kick/stab combo, like you might see in a Soul Calibur game, and that would be awesome. Is there any reason you can't trip as part of WFS?


Wolf Fang Strike lets you make an attack with 2 weapons. A trip attempt can be subbed in for any normal attack. Seems pretty straightforward to me- yes, you can trip.


Woah woah woah! You're telling me you have to take a strike to take boosts (currently AFB)? Awhoops... (this is my first time playing a ToB character)

No- Sudden Leap has a prerequisite of 'One Tiger Claw maneuver', which would be satisfied by also taking Wolf Fang Strike. Its status as a boost is irrelevant.