PDA

View Full Version : Tanking with AC 13 at level 15. Am I crazy?



mykelyk
2011-01-24, 07:15 AM
I've made a warblade for a 15 level game, AC 13.
Can I hope to tank with two 10ft-step each round, Wall of Blades and a Major Cloak of Displacement?

Full build here (http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=12345).

Innis Cabal
2011-01-24, 07:18 AM
How did you get such low AC in the first place?

fractal_uk
2011-01-24, 07:20 AM
Do you realise that a Major Cloak of Displacement only works for 15 rounds/day? The minor one is cheaper and better - it works all the time.

TheDarkDM
2011-01-24, 07:34 AM
Short answer? No.

The problem with this build is that you're relying on distance and miss chance to save you most of the time, with Wall of Blades as an emergency measure. But anything that poses a credible melee threat at that level will have a high enough attack bonus that it can seriously challenge your Wall of Blades, enough reach to probably get a full attack off on you, and have sufficient iterative attacks as to largely bypass a 40% miss chance. Then all you have is hit points (and a wasted maneuver should Wall of Blades fail) and 177 is not a great amount at level 15. Of course, this all depends on optimization level, but in my game I had a Duskblade of comparable level with a Cloak of Major Displacement, a ton of mobility spells, and an AC in the high 30's. AC is what saved him nine times out of ten, and even then he was the most frequent casualty in the game.

But I must echo Innis Cabal - how have you let your AC get so low?

Eldan
2011-01-24, 07:35 AM
Drop some of your other equipment. Get at least a mithral breastplate and a handful of +2 AC items. You are toast, like this.

Fortuna
2011-01-24, 07:38 AM
I do vaguely recall a build that deliberately got negative AC, and made it work. Probably back when I wandered the Wizards boards.

But without specifically taking advantage of it (and no, I don't recall how), you're crazy.

mykelyk
2011-01-24, 07:39 AM
Do you find that you trade blow for more than 15/rounds each day at level 15+?

How do I get a better AC?
How do I get a better miss chance (smoking enchantment is banned)?

The party is composed of a blasty psion, a dread necro and a rogue/assassin so buff are right out.

I have found that if I invest 20k money in AC (mythral full plate +2, deflection +1, natural armor +1, animated extreme shield +1) I get a speed malus and a sucky AC of 30.

Than I have no more money for miss chance...

How do you get a reasonable ac at high level without buff and wasting all your wbl?

Edit: If I invest 50k money in ac I get a result of 34 (mythral full plate +3, deflection +2, natural armor +2, animated extreme shield +2) it doesn't seems good to me.

TheDarkDM
2011-01-24, 08:15 AM
Not to undermine your build, but your party probably won't need a tank if your Dread Necro is played anywhere near that class' potential. If s/he's properly built, s/he's going to be carting around at least 300 HD of undead, and that can form one hell of a wall.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-24, 08:41 AM
You should have an average of level +20 AC to survive enemy iterative attacks.

Malbordeus
2011-01-24, 08:44 AM
yes your crazy, tanking is a thankless job.

in all honesty, ac isnt a major issue. its nice, but so many things ignore it. (touch/rays) i'd go for a ballance of defensive forms, a miss chance with a reasonable ac. maybe look into the costs of Permanency'd Blur spells, ring of darkhidden (whatever tis called, the one where you cant be seen with darkvision, fighting blind opponants is one of the better ways of avoiding being hit.) and a temporary HP buffer. possibly even a minor DR as well.


my 2cp anyway

Myth
2011-01-24, 09:01 AM
Your problems:

Low AC but you don't capitalize on it being low. AC is a "max it or leave it" kind of stat. You "leave it" if you are a Mineral Warrior Crusader or some such. You max it generally by being a decent Gish (Paladin/Sorcerer bulds tend to be best)

No battlefield control - you can't tank better than the mindless undead that will accompany you guys if you can't make the enemies hit you. Around level 15 they should be with high Int, flying, incorporeal, SLA/Su having things. Or Tier 1 casters who will completely own you.

Too much reliance on the "BAB vs AC" formula wheres at that level other things are more important.

Warror Skald is 3.0 and borked up 3.0 at that.

Cleave is a useless feat.

In short: Be a Crusader. Get decent Cha. Get Goad/Imperious Command/Never outnumbered. Read some guides for ToB melee, and Crusaders in particular.

Get a spell storing weapon.

mykelyk
2011-01-24, 09:37 AM
I don't understand why lot's of people on this forum say that shock trooper is good, charging with shock trooper AC can go, and will go, into negative.

My defense are:
Tomb tainted soul and a dread necro means infinite out of combat healing and efficient in combat healing (harm).
I can make TWO TEN foot steps every round, so full-attack against me without pounce are basically impossible.
Dread necro minion + share pain means that my hp are nearly doubled.

The average to-hit of a single cr 15 monster is +26, my to-hit is +31, so my Wall of Blades will probably work.

I don't cause attack of opportunity when I move and I am pretty fast (80ft fly good) so if something bad happen I can probably run away.

I have dragonfire inspiration, so all the dread necro minions are very empowered by my presence.

I have yet to find a proof that my defense are bad.
Actually the only situation that look bad is when I'm against a lot of enemy that are alway charging me.

@Malbordeus: Thanks for the tips.
Problem is my DM love dispel so permanency is out of the list.
Ring of darkhidden: I need a way to get Darkvision first, an obscurity source second and a way to remain in budget :smallredface:.
Temporary HP: We have an item that cast Heroe's Feast once a day, have you any better way?

mykelyk
2011-01-24, 09:56 AM
Low AC but you don't capitalize on it being low. AC is a "max it or leave it" kind of stat. You "leave it" if you are a Mineral Warrior Crusader or some such. You max it generally by being a decent Gish (Paladin/Sorcerer bulds tend to be best)

I don't see how dr 8/adamantine at level 15 is competitive.
I don't see how a crusader can survive a full power attack of a dragon.
I see how you can survive when the enemy cannot full attack you.



No battlefield control - you can't tank better than the mindless undead that will accompany you guys if you can't make the enemies hit you. Around level 15 they should be with high Int, flying, incorporeal, SLA/Su having things. Or Tier 1 casters who will completely own you.

Tier 1 casters will always completely own us, thats are the rule of the game, I don't see how same minion could change the situation.
I have Disrupting Blow, Clarion Call and Covering Strike how I am now a battlefield controller?



Too much reliance on the "BAB vs AC" formula wheres at that level other things are more important.

Than what should I do? I want to play a supportive warblade.



Warror Skald is 3.0 and borked up 3.0 at that.

3.0 not updated is 3.5. Why is borked?



Cleave is a useless feat.

Warrior Skald prereq.



In short: Be a Crusader. Get decent Cha. Get Goad/Imperious Command/Never outnumbered. Read some guides for ToB melee, and Crusaders in particular.

I have just retired a level 15 dragonfire adept with +42 exactly to intimidate, imperious command, never outnumbered and a fearsome armor (move action intimidate, standard breath). I want to try something different. Killing incantatrix is not on my priority list.


Get a spell storing weapon.
For Vampiric Touch? Will do.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-24, 10:01 AM
I don't understand why lot's of people on this forum say that shock trooper is good, charging with shock trooper AC can go, and will go, into negative.It's good because you normally one-hit enemies, and dead enemies can't hit back (hopefully).

And if the spellcasters are doing their job right, there won't be any other enemy in the vicinity of the shock trooper to whack him with iterative attacks.

Urpriest
2011-01-24, 10:04 AM
3.0 not updated is 3.5. Why is borked?


It used the old rules for Bardic Music. Were it updated, it would lack the "you gain all forms of bardic music" qualifier because Bardic Music isn't just one ability, it's a series of abilities gained as levels progress. It's kind of like using Disciple of Dispater to stack crit range: it goes against the edition's design principles.

Anyway, I think you've been deceiving us. Do you actually want to tank, or do you want to be a melee support character? These are rather different concepts.

Myth
2011-01-24, 10:38 AM
I don't see how dr 8/adamantine at level 15 is competitive.
I don't see how a crusader can survive a full power attack of a dragon.
I see how you can survive when the enemy cannot full attack you.
DR8/adamantine will work versus 50% of the enemies (at least) who will physically harm you. Otherwise it would be DM fiat or a recurring villain. A Crusaer with his Delayed Damage Pool can do a better job at tanking overall.

You can't survive the full attack with PA of a Dragon either. Provided said Dragon is played to it's Int score and uses it's potent magics to strip you of your gear/mobility first. Not to mention that without any FoM it can just grapple you and tear you to shreds. (that could be a problem, figure out a way to get Freedom of Movement vs those Collosal things with a grapple score of +80).


Tier 1 casters will always completely own us, thats are the rule of the game, I don't see how same minion could change the situation.
Quite. However getting better saves/mobility/a deadlier full attack/Mageslayer line of feats could be useful. Consider a Belt of Battle and Anklets of Translocation. This totaly depends on the metagame however. If your DM will throw big dumb brutes at you, who lack mobility, versatility or alternate attacks like casting, Su/SLAs, ability/energy drain etc. you can ignore this.


I have Disrupting Blow, Clarion Call and Covering Strike how I am now a battlefield controller?
1 - it's a minor disable for one enem. 2 - it's a buff for your allies. 3 - works only vs melee enemies and is situational. Mostly those who would provoke AOOs are sneaky types who have Tumble maxed anyway. Unless your DM throws someone with Thicket of Blades + Reach at your caster.

In short: no you are not a battlefield controller.


Than what should I do? I want to play a supportive warblade.
By all means play what you enjoy. Supportive is not a tank, as was pointed out.


3.0 not updated is 3.5. Why is borked? Urpriest explained that already.


I have just retired a level 15 dragonfire adept with +42 exactly to intimidate, imperious command, never outnumbered and a fearsome armor (move action intimidate, standard breath). I want to try something different. Killing incantatrix is not on my priority list.Heh well then you can play the build that makes you happy.


For Vampiric Touch? Will do.Among other things.

the clumsy bard
2011-01-24, 11:07 AM
The best defense is a good offense.

That being said you should have a higher ac. Depending on chance to stop things from hitting you is just plain wrong.

30 ac isn't great, but guess what its a lot better then 13!

As a warblade you should be able to pump out the pain using maneuvers, therefore killing anything that is going to try and hit you.

I also echo the comments made to the fact that the other casters should be killing things as well as well as the dread necromancer having fodder undead to soak damage and make walls.

Toliudar
2011-01-24, 11:24 AM
At this level, enough opponents will be bypassing illusions through some variation on true seeing that the displacement is not enough, on its own, to act as your defense. The 10' steps are indeed nice, but in addition to the chargers you mention, you may also want to take into account very large creatures (with reach 10' greater than yours), or situations where, tactically, there's no safe place to which to retreat 10'.

Not having some form of AC boost at this point would be some kind of character affectation - the guy who doesn't mind getting punched in the face, because it inspires him to fight harder. If that's what you're after, would Karmic Strike/Robilar's gambit work for you?

Coidzor
2011-01-24, 12:10 PM
I don't understand why lot's of people on this forum say that shock trooper is good, charging with shock trooper AC can go, and will go, into negative. It doesn't generally matter because anything you hit as a shocktrooper charger is going to be dead. Of course, in a party with bone-wall undead, benign transposition to both set up such a charger for another charge next round and then leave a zombie in the place of the charger to tear the face off of any other adjacent enemies would be pretty nice. And most melee types that go for shocktrooper have a wall of HP and a high enough AC that they're not completely naked with the penalty to AC.


I have yet to find a proof that my defense are bad.
Actually the only situation that look bad is when I'm against a lot of enemy that are alway charging me. You have AC 13 and had to ask how to increase it. That alone is worrisome about your defenses.

mykelyk
2011-01-24, 01:14 PM
It's good because you normally one-hit enemies, and dead enemies can't hit back (hopefully).

And if the spellcasters are doing their job right, there won't be any other enemy in the vicinity of the shock trooper to whack him with iterative attacks.

As far as I now Shock Trooper isn't enough to kill everything: Shock Trooper + Pounce + Leap Attack + others, kill everything that hit.

And if the DM has half a brain he will find thousand of way to stop the ubercharger.

But than why people recommend Shock Trooper even to people without Pounce and in party where there is no rocket tag yet?

mykelyk
2011-01-24, 01:42 PM
DR8/adamantine will work versus 50% of the enemies (at least) who will physically harm you. Otherwise it would be DM fiat or a recurring villain. A Crusaer with his Delayed Damage Pool can do a better job at tanking overall.

My point is that DR 8 is low when you have maneuvers that give you 30 and attack that do 50+ damage.
Assuming no buy off I would prefer being a crusader 15 than a mineral warrior crusader 14.
Assuming buy off, well free stuff is free stuff.



You can't survive the full attack with PA of a Dragon either. Provided said Dragon is played to it's Int score and uses it's potent magics to strip you of your gear/mobility first. Not to mention that without any FoM it can just grapple you and tear you to shreds. (that could be a problem, figure out a way to get Freedom of Movement vs those Collosal things with a grapple score of +80).
Yes magic > mundane, this is why I am in a party with 3 caster (psion, dread, assassin) and this is why we, sometimes, manage to kill the big magic lizards.



Quite. However getting better saves/mobility/a deadlier full attack/Mageslayer line of feats could be useful. Consider a Belt of Battle and Anklets of Translocation. This totaly depends on the metagame however. If your DM will throw big dumb brutes at you, who lack mobility, versatility or alternate attacks like casting, Su/SLAs, ability/energy drain etc. you can ignore this.
Uhm. I though I had good saves, mobility.
Belt of Battle is on the list of the things to buy, but my DM thinks is underpriced, he is asking an opinion in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10224882#post10224882)(please tell him that should cost 3k):smalltongue:.
IMHO to be a good mageslayer you need a good dispel first and a strong ranged attack second. The psion is a good mageslayer.



1 - it's a minor disable for one enem. 2 - it's a buff for your allies. 3 - works only vs melee enemies and is situational. Mostly those who would provoke AOOs are sneaky types who have Tumble maxed anyway. Unless your DM throws someone with Thicket of Blades + Reach at your caster.

In short: no you are not a battlefield controller.

1 - that allow an easier flanking for the assassin.
2 - that allow my allies to move around the battlefield for a better positioning.
3 - many brute have low will save, however I will drop this next level for White Raven Hammer.

I think I can reshape the battlefield (the assassin is having a very bad time succeeding at sneak attacking, I want to change that).




By all means play what you enjoy. Supportive is not a tank, as was pointed out.

Urpriest explained that already.

I will answer him in the next post.




Among other things.
Where can I find other good spell to deliver? Eternal wand of something?

ericgrau
2011-01-24, 01:46 PM
The issue with the major cloak isn't just the 15 rounds, but also the standard action activation. You're vulnerable in round 1, and you didn't get to attack for a round.

Shock trooper gets recommended for cheesy goodness. Personally I wouldn't actually play with it and your group may have its own opinions... or soon gain them if you try it. Or ya a lot of DMs stop you from reaching the baddy at all instead.

It's also a lot of trouble simply to match AC. Assuming shock trooper gets disallowed, you can get 75+% miss chance simply by dividing your AC among 4-5 cheap items. 55+% without a shield. But without shock trooper power attack loses a lot of oomph. Lost AB really hurts your overall damage output. Sometimes PA even makes your damage go down. In such cases getting hit 1/4 of the time instead of 1/2 the time, taking half as much damage, is often worth the minor loss of 2-3 + 1/2 your strength modifier to damage. Though sometimes foes might have low AC, your AB might be buffed up the wazoo, at very low levels before bonus damage you need every point you can get, etc., so it depends. All this is moot if you get shocktrooper of course, well except when you're not attacking.

Hmm 19+5(armor)+1(ioun stone)+2(ring)+2(amulet)=29 which is par for your level, maybe enough for 50% miss chance. Cost is 25k+5k+8k+8k=46k. Hmm, against a lot of melee heavy foes of your level you need a shield for ~55-60%, and that only gives 30%. It's a lot better on the secondary attacks though; 80% and 55%, or more, unlike displacement which stays the same. So you're finally at the level where miss chance might actually be worth it... if it didn't eat a whopping action to pull off 50%. As said that's why the 20% minor cloak for 20k is better... and that's not saying much.

mykelyk
2011-01-24, 01:59 PM
It used the old rules for Bardic Music. Were it updated, it would lack the "you gain all forms of bardic music" qualifier because Bardic Music isn't just one ability, it's a series of abilities gained as levels progress. It's kind of like using Disciple of Dispater to stack crit range: it goes against the edition's design principles.


Uhm you are right. I think a conversion to 3.5 should change that to only give me the bardic music of a first level bard. However if I take a level of bard instead I would lose a point of BAB but I would gain two feats (drop poet and cleave), I think is balanced.



Anyway, I think you've been deceiving us. Do you actually want to tank, or do you want to be a melee support character? These are rather different concepts.
The DM loves to slaughter the minions of the Dread Necro, last fight we fought I think two Sunfly Swarm: first round 10 undeads, second round 2.

So what I wanted to ask is if I could tank in an emergency situation, and I think I can.
If I wanted to do a real tank I would just take Elusive Reflexes on a warforged juggernaut crusader and laugh.

Keld Denar
2011-01-24, 02:21 PM
Don't forget that penalties to AB persist through your turn. If you dump your AB to PA in a given round, and then try to counter with Wall of Blades, you'll find that wall to be woefully short.

Plus, I'm gonna echo what Toliudor stated. All outsiders you fight at that ECL will ALL have True Seeing up. All the time. Period. A lot of non-outsiders you'll encounter may also have it up. Relying on it exclusively is a good way to get deadified.

mykelyk
2011-01-24, 02:56 PM
The issue with the major cloak isn't just the 15 rounds, but also the standard action activation. You're vulnerable in round 1, and you didn't get to attack for a round.

Shock trooper gets recommended for cheesy goodness. Personally I wouldn't actually play with it and your group may have its own opinions... or soon gain them if you try it. Or ya a lot of DMs stop you from reaching the baddy at all instead.

It's also a lot of trouble simply to match AC. Assuming shock trooper gets disallowed, you can get 75+% miss chance simply by dividing your AC among 4-5 cheap items. 55+% without a shield. But without shock trooper power attack loses a lot of oomph. Lost AB really hurts your overall damage output. Sometimes PA even makes your damage go down. In such cases getting hit 1/4 of the time instead of 1/2 the time, taking half as much damage, is often worth the minor loss of 2-3 + 1/2 your strength modifier to damage. Though sometimes foes might have low AC, your AB might be buffed up the wazoo, at very low levels before bonus damage you need every point you can get, etc., so it depends. All this is moot if you get shocktrooper of course, well except when you're not attacking.

Hmm 19+5(armor)+1(ioun stone)+2(ring)+2(amulet)=29 which is par for your level, maybe enough for 50% miss chance. Cost is 25k+5k+8k+8k=46k. Hmm, against a lot of melee heavy foes of your level you need a shield for ~55-60%, and that only gives 30%. It's a lot better on the secondary attacks though; 80% and 55%, or more, unlike displacement which stays the same. So you're finally at the level where miss chance might actually be worth it... if it didn't eat a whopping action to pull off 50%. As said that's why the 20% minor cloak for 20k is better... and that's not saying much.

Ioun stone? It's a trap!
From SRD: "Ioun stones have AC 24, 10 hit points, and hardness 5".
They are not on you! First fireball, ooze or AoE attack and 5000k go to the wind.

About activation: the wearer can divide up as she sees fit.
Example:
1 - I wake and activate the cloak as std action.
2 - I see fit to stop now at 0 round consumed.
3 - When I see fit to resume (not an action) he restart.
Else it would be completely useless.

About attack:
An average cr 15 monster have a to-hit of +26 and his full attack look like that:
+26/+21/+21/+21/+21
Assuming AC = 10 + 3(dex) + 12(Mythral fullplate+4) + 2(ring) + 2(amulet) = 29
This for an expenditure of: 10500 + 16000 + 8000 + 8000 = 42500.
For a less than 50% chance of missing on any the attack. But will stop him to power attack too much.
The problem is: what in the next levels?
I will keep spending more and more to keep up.

At level 20?
AC = 10 + 3(dex) + 13(Mythral fullplate+5) + 5(ring) + 5(amulet) + animated extreme shield +5 = 42
10500 + 25000 + 50000 + 50000 + 98000 = 232500
So with having no AC in fact I am gaining in the long term 232.500 - 50.000 = 182.500 gp extra and so I can buy a Starmantle and a ring of evasion.

If you start pushing money in AC you can't stop o you have just wasted all the ones before.

About shocktrooper:
It's boring, repetitive and too easy to break.

mykelyk
2011-01-24, 03:07 PM
Don't forget that penalties to AB persist through your turn. If you dump your AB to PA in a given round, and then try to counter with Wall of Blades, you'll find that wall to be woefully short.

Plus, I'm gonna echo what Toliudor stated. All outsiders you fight at that ECL will ALL have True Seeing up. All the time. Period. A lot of non-outsiders you'll encounter may also have it up. Relying on it exclusively is a good way to get deadified.

Than give me a way to get a good armor class without wasting all my money on it.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-24, 03:09 PM
Ioun stone? It's a trap!
From SRD: "Ioun stones have AC 24, 10 hit points, and hardness 5".
They are not on you! First fireball, ooze or AoE attack and 5000k go to the wind.


Where did you hear Ioun stones aren't on you? They float above your head. They are slotless but they are equipment. So no affected by area unless roll a 1.

Instead of/in addition a Major Cloak of Displacement buy a Shroud of the Night. That grants 5 rounds of Dancing Shadows aka "True Displacement" (remember normal displacement has a exception that you can be targeted).
True Displacement has no exception: meaning you are hidden from targeted spells.
Look at False Displacement aka Displacement spell:
However, unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally

Dancing Shadows is actual total Concealment meaning you are prevented from being targeted for 5 rounds.

ericgrau
2011-01-24, 03:12 PM
Ioun stone? It's a trap!
From SRD: "Ioun stones have AC 24, 10 hit points, and hardness 5".
They are not on you! First fireball, ooze or AoE attack and 5000k go to the wind.
By RAW your equipment is only damaged on a natural 1 on your reflex save. Even then it gets another save, and only 1 item gets hit, for which your cloak has priority. You could say the ioun stone is vulnerable b/c it's "not held", but I find that kinda silly similar to drowning to heal yourself. EDIT: ninja'd.

As for the rest, you want to compare to a CR 13 monster not CR 15. 4 CR 13 monsters is a "difficult" EL 17 encounter. 4 CR 15's might tpk a 4 man party, depending on optimization, luck, etc. Ya, you are at the borderline level where 50% for 50k might be worth it, except that standard action to activate is horribly painful. Maybe you could hunt for other methods that work as a swift at least, though that still hurts when surprised, true seeing-ed, etc. Still would be nice 80% of the time if you can find one.

Keld Denar
2011-01-24, 03:16 PM
About activation: the wearer can divide up as she sees fit.
Example:
1 - I wake and activate the cloak as std action.
2 - I see fit to stop now at 0 round consumed.
3 - When I see fit to resume (not an action) he restart.
Else it would be completely useless.

Bolded text is correct. The real way it works, is that it requires a standard action to activate and a standard action to deactivate. Period. Activating a command word item is a standard action unless otherwise specified. Since its not specified otherwise, thats the way it is.

The "divided up as you see fit" text means that once you deactivate it, any remaining duration is conserved. Contrast to something like a Figuring of Wonderous Power, which, when activated and then dismissed, can't be reactivated for the remaining duration unless you use another usage/day (or week, by item). Thats why people state that the greater cloak is BAD.

Plus, as I said...True Seeing is an issue.

A Ring of Blinking might be a better idea? If you have Pierce Magical Concealment, you'll be able to ignore your own miss chance. That'd give you 50% miss chance vs most things, and 20% miss chance even against things with True Sight. Only drawback is that you have to activate it every 7 rounds, which could be awkward in combat.

mykelyk
2011-01-24, 03:30 PM
By RAW your equipment is only damaged on a natural 1 on your reflex save. Even then it gets another save, and only 1 item gets hit, for which your cloak has priority. You could say the ioun stone is vulnerable b/c it's "not held", but I find that kinda silly similar to drowning to heal yourself. EDIT: ninja'd.

As for the rest, you want to compare to a CR 13 monster not CR 15. 4 CR 13 monsters is a "difficult" EL 17 encounter. 4 CR 15's might tpk a 4 man party, depending on optimization, luck, etc. Ya, you are at the borderline level where 50% for 50k might be worth it, except that standard action to activate is horribly painful. Maybe you could hunt for other methods that work as a swift at least, though that still hurts when surprised, true seeing-ed, etc. Still would be nice 80% of the time if you can find one.
If it is a standard action to RESUME than is indeed worthless.
My DM has said that because we are optimized and the cr has no meaning at high level he lower the cr of all creature by 2 by default. So no.

Btw what do you do if you cannot use a fullplate? Arcane spell failure for example.

Keld Denar
2011-01-24, 03:35 PM
Wow...thats...rough. Good luck if you ever face a even CR outsider then. Blasphemy lock incoming!

Coidzor
2011-01-24, 04:03 PM
About shocktrooper:
It's boring, repetitive and too easy to break.

So why did you bring it up in the first place? :smallconfused:

mykelyk
2011-01-24, 04:11 PM
Wow...thats...rough. Good luck if you ever face a even CR outsider then. Blasphemy lock incoming!

Well, last encounter we fought in a space of in game 10 minutes:
- 2 Sunfly Swarm
- a pixie rogue psythief (I think, she stole pp and buff)
- 8 Avorial
- a 15th level Divine Metamagic Quicken Cleric with Divine Spell Power and a Bead of Karma :smalleek:, with a deva I think and some kind of paladin, everybody with a range from 6 to 15 active buff.

My dragonfire adept used his last trick, a shapechange scroll that was dragging around by 4 levels to turn in a Overseer and reflect the cleric's divine spell powered dispell on himself, that removed his immunity to cold and so the psion killed him.

I'm now removing the dragonfire and adding Marchosias.

Any idea how to get high AC at low cost?

Toliudar
2011-01-24, 04:17 PM
Btw what do you do if you cannot use a fullplate? Arcane spell failure for example.

I believe that the mithril breastplate was mentioned as a starting point.

Or, as mentioned earlier, find ways to make other people hitting you a virtue. Karmic Strike, the BoED version of the Retributive Amulet, and so on.

mykelyk
2011-01-24, 04:19 PM
So why did you bring it up in the first place? :smallconfused:

I don't use it for the reasons explained before.
I asked why if low AC is such a big deal so many people on this forum give such praise to it.

Low AC because of no armor = bad, you will die, get an armor.
Raging, Frenzying, charging, using full shock trooper = -2 -4 -2 -15 = malus of 23 to AC, but somehow this is ok, because you have lot of hp and miss chance will save you.

:smallconfused:

mykelyk
2011-01-24, 04:22 PM
I believe that the mithril breastplate was mentioned as a starting point.

Or, as mentioned earlier, find ways to make other people hitting you a virtue. Karmic Strike, the BoED version of the Retributive Amulet, and so on.

Robilar's gambit is my 18 level feat.
Too late too few?

Just read BoED Retributive Amulet: don't you think is a bit too strong? I mean basically I get half melee damage and the enemy get the other half, no save no nothing.

Ozymandias
2011-01-24, 04:28 PM
Low AC because of no armor = bad, you will die, get an armor.
Raging, Frenzying, charging, using full shock trooper = -2 -4 -2 -15 = malus of 23 to AC, but somehow this is ok, because you have lot of hp and miss chance will save you.


Shock Trooper isn't useful for a tank. You're asking advice for tanking, ostensibly, so no one recommended it to you, and your issues with it aren't even germane for that reason.

It's good for what it is good for because the best way of ensuring your opponent can't hit your AC is if they are unable to make attacks, viz., dead.

Czin
2011-01-24, 04:29 PM
I don't use it for the reasons explained before.
I asked why if low AC is such a big deal so many people on this forum give such praise to it.

Low AC because of no armor = bad, you will die, get an armor.
Raging, Frenzying, charging, using full shock trooper = -2 -4 -2 -15 = malus of 23 to AC, but somehow this is ok, because you have lot of hp and miss chance will save you.

:smallconfused:

If I understand, the Shock trooper build works on the assumption that you will manage to kill everyone before they can react. It is one of those all or nothing builds since all the enemies that can target you must be dead before the next round or else you will be a very sorry adventurer. If the enemy can get reinforcements within the round and they are able to attack you; in all likelihood you are going to be dead without the intervention of your other party members. And as said before, the Shock trooper build is not a good build for tanks, whose purpose is to absorb damage and keep enemies away from the squishier members of your party, a shock trooper build is a purely offensive thing as using it for any other purpose is a waste of it. Whenever you are not going for a rocket tag build, you should always try to make your AC as high as you possibly can because AC plays a very large factor it keeping you from being dead. As a tank you are expected to keep a certain few stats as high as you can possibly make them, your hit point count, your armor class, and your saves, if any of these are low then you my good sir are not a good tank.

TheDarkDM
2011-01-24, 04:31 PM
As an aside, you seem to want to buff the Dread Necro's undead with your bard abilities. To do this, you must take the Dirge feat from Libris Mortis - otherwise, undead are unaffected by Bardic Music.

Keld Denar
2011-01-24, 04:35 PM
To do this, you must take the Dirge feat from Libris Mortis

Its actually Requiem, not Dirge. It does do exactly what you mentioned though...just adding clarity.

mykelyk
2011-01-24, 04:38 PM
Shock Trooper isn't useful for a tank. You're asking advice for tanking, ostensibly, so no one recommended it to you, and your issues with it aren't even germane for that reason.

It's good for what it is good for because the best way of ensuring your opponent can't hit your AC is if they are unable to make attacks, viz., dead.

What's the meaning of tanking?
To tank means doing two things well: grow aggro, hard to kill.

Being a high damage dealer grow aggro, if the enemy doesn't stop you they are dead.
Being under dispacement, with 8 mirror image around you make you hard to kill.
So yes you can tank with shocktrooper.

TheDarkDM
2011-01-24, 04:39 PM
Its actually Requiem, not Dirge. It does do exactly what you mentioned though...just adding clarity.

Oops, got confused with Dirgesinger, the undead bard.

mykelyk
2011-01-24, 04:39 PM
As an aside, you seem to want to buff the Dread Necro's undead with your bard abilities. To do this, you must take the Dirge feat from Libris Mortis - otherwise, undead are unaffected by Bardic Music.
Dragonfire inspiration is mind-affecting?

TheDarkDM
2011-01-24, 04:42 PM
Dragonfire inspiration is mind-affecting?

Dragonfire Inspiration is an affect tacked on to Bardic Music, not a separate ability. So, yes, treat the rules for Dragonfire Inspiration as the same as Bardic Music as far as affecting undead goes..

Keld Denar
2011-01-24, 04:42 PM
All bardic music is [Mind Affecting], yes. Or at least all the music a standard bard gets. Some PrCs like Seeker of the Song have non-[Mind Affecting] music, but...yea...

Toliudar
2011-01-24, 04:52 PM
Just read BoED Retributive Amulet: don't you think is a bit too strong? I mean basically I get half melee damage and the enemy get the other half, no save no nothing.

Now I'm confused. Your DM seems to be encouraging you to optimize, and you've created a thread asking for assistance in surviving as a front-liner with a very low AC, or very cheap ways to raise that AC to the point where it will matter. Retributive Amulet would be one way to do the former - it increases your damage input, although with the long-term effect of making you a much less attractive melee target. Note that it also does nothing for ranged attacks or status effects, so it would only be a part of the solution for you.

TheDarkDM
2011-01-24, 04:58 PM
Well, to be fair his DM seems to have a strange idea of what an optimized party entails if he considers a party that includes a Dread Necro that goes for masses of undead and an Assassin as "optimized".

But I do agree that if mykelyk's DM is going to treat them as super-op, he should use every tool at his disposal.

Thurbane
2011-01-24, 08:29 PM
Repeating what has already been said here, but if you want to tank with a lousy AC, load up on "retaliatory" effects - Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Fire Shield, Ring of Retaliation etc.

You'll also want DR and Fast Healing if at all possible.

A miss chance wouldn't hurt either.

Endarire
2011-01-24, 11:04 PM
Consider these important factors (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10191457&postcount=86).

You should expect intelligent casters to cast a spell or two each round, with the great possibility of you being fully affected. Having such low AC is asking for trouble, but there is hope.

1: Don't get heavy armor. Ever. It's a waste of money and the AC it grants its overly expensive. Get a Mithril Chain Shirt, a MW Dastana (Oriental Adventures 76) and a MW Chahar-aina (Oriental Adventures 76). You'll have 6 armor AC instead of 8, but 3 magic item slots.

Make each of these items +1. You'll have 9 armor AC.

Preferably, find a way to get magic vestment cast on your gear, the higher AC bonus, the better. Taking Leadership for a Cleric is a great, if your DM allows it.

2: Get an item of continuous shield for 3K. It's +4 shield AC and blocks magic missiles.

3: Remember that true seeing and Blindsight negate your cloak's miss chance.

4: Get a Psychoactive Skin of Proteus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalitems.htm#skinofProteus) for 84K. Turn into something 7HD or less with a tremendous natural AC bonus.

For example, an Annis Hag (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hag.htm) has +10 natural AC. If you're an Outsider, you can get ludicrously high AC boosts from this. See Ravid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm) and Dwarf Ancestor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=3). All these forms have at least +10 natural AC.

5: Don't try to tank. Tanking relies on stupid creatures who want to kill the Big Mean Man instead of the Squishy Wizard. At this level, intelligent opponents know you're coming and, logically, would separate the party and kill one member at a time. Also, the Wizard (Dread Necromancer) ain't so squishy. He has the same wealth by level as you and can use said Skin of Proteus or other means to become similarly uber in the physical department.

Dread Necromancers get planar binding, letting them use Outsiders for days at a time. These called creatures are probably better at being a Big Mean Man than you. What makes you special?