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View Full Version : Which skills should there be in a skill list?



true_shinken
2011-01-24, 01:35 PM
I'm redesigning a game system and I wonder which skills are the most important?
The genre in question is shounen fighting manga, with a step in the seinen side (because it's a world where supernatural powers are actually factored in society structure - think hadouken-blasting law enforcers, China with the best military in the world, bouncers that can stretch their arms, etc).
The skills I think must be there are:

Acrobatics
Stealth
Occult Lore
Savoir-Faire - all social skills rolled into one
Computers
Mechanics
Drive/Pilot
Language

I'm taking suggestions.

Waker
2011-01-24, 01:53 PM
Perform (Histrionics) is required for whenever an important plot point is shown.

Thespianus
2011-01-24, 01:56 PM
I modify and add to your list:


Acrobatics
Stealth
Lore ( "Occult Lore" seems very specialized)
Savoir-Faire - all social skills rolled into one
Software (Computer skills)
Hardware (Mechanics and Electronics)
Drive/Pilot
Language
Economics (Coz money makes the world go around)


There was one skill system that I really liked, I just can't remember the game system. It might even have been something homebrewn, but skills were split into categories, and each category (say "Firearms" or "Movement") had subcategories ("Rifle", "Pistol", "Heavy Weapons" and "Climbing", "Acrobatics", "Stealth"), and each of those had one more subcategory ("Glock 22", "Desert Eagle", etc, "Rock Climbing", "Cat Buglary", etc)

With your skillpoints, you could buy ranks in each skill, and each subcategory, but for each sub category, you could only buy half of the ranks of the corresponding "parent" category.

The skills went to "10" (representing insanely hard task), so you could have 4 ranks in "Firearms", 2 ranks in "Pistol" and 1 rank in "Glock 22". If you wanted to get better at shooting your Glock after that, you had to buy ranks in "Firearms" to get to 5 and then 6, before you could get a 3 in "Pistol".

As I remember it, it worked pretty nicely. Also, the cost of each rank was the Rank squared, and for each successful use of the skill in a stressed situation, you recieved a few points that you could use to up any skill a little.

This turned out to work pretty nicely, but it might be a too large step from the skill list / skill system you're envisioning...

</rant>

valadil
2011-01-24, 02:03 PM
I recently came to the conclusion that I like smaller skill lists. The reason being, it feels really awesome when you think of a new way to use a skill. The fewer skills available, the more ways you'll be able to apply them. Contrast this with a system like GURPS where you'll try to use your computer engineer skill to use a ham radio and be told that you should have taken electronics operation: communications instead. The more skills there are, the more I feel like I get criticized for taking the wrong skills.

That said, I like detail too. I want to be able to represent a complete person on my character sheet. Rolling all the social skills into savoir-faire makes that difficult because a good story teller and a pathological liar end up with the same social skill. For that reason, I like specialization. Let savoir-faire be your social skill, but include options for gaining bonuses in deceit, reading people, music, etc.

Anyway I think my first paragraph is a pretty bold assertion and I'd like to hear if anyone has had a different experience.

PersonMan
2011-01-24, 02:09 PM
stuff


I think that sub-skills are a good idea-but I think they should cost less, not more. So you could have someone who can shoot very well with a pistol, but only has a basic grasp of other firearms, or someone who isn't quite as good with pistols, but is a pretty good shot all around.

ideasmith
2011-01-24, 02:13 PM
I would add:

Crafting (This might be combined with Mechanics.)
Knowledge (This might be combined with Occult Lore, Computers, and Language; or split into Scientific Lore and General Lore.)
Perception

ericgrau
2011-01-24, 02:15 PM
1. As-is the skills take an inordinate amount of time leveling up for a relatively minor part of the game.

2. Anything home-made should be even simpler, because balancing your own game is a nightmare otherwise.

Thus I will take your existing list and shrink it even further:

Agility: acrobatics, stealth, drive/pilot, etc.
Savoir-Faire: good
Books / knowledge / lore / world lore / ?name?: lore, economics (on large societal scale), history, linguistics, etc.
Electronics: software, hardware, electricity (e.g. simple wall power, flashlights, probably DC 5-10 here), robots, etc.
Mechanics: crafting, fixing, wrenching, plumbing, etc. Anything with forceful tools.

languages: not skills, you know them or you don't.

There's always the you can still be good at X while being bad at Y arguments. But, ya, short of making 200 skills you can't satisfy that logic and it's easier to keep things simple. I'd also strongly recommend low flat DCs for most things. Think of the level 1 characters first; if that means high level characters can auto-succeed, then good! That makes it much easier for people to be good at multiple things without gimping themselves horribly.

And don't follow through with the 3e complication of allowing a million things to boost everything. Allow maybe nice tools for a +2, or perhaps nothing at all, and end it there. Screw +X feats. Then you'll know exactly what modifiers to expect, what a level X PC's chance of success will be (remember, depending on the task 100% or 0% can be ok), etc. Then you won't be surprised when someone gets a +20 from using a dozen different +1 to +2 sources and breaks your system, or when some other poor PC only has 1-2 sources and doesn't understand why he can't keep up with any of your challenges.

Darrin
2011-01-24, 02:39 PM
I'm taking suggestions.

Don't forget:

Basket-Weaving
Boot-licking
Make Howitzer from Toaster
Marital Arts
Running in High Heels
Screaming
Spurious Logic
Urination

J.Gellert
2011-01-24, 02:41 PM
Perception, obviously.

As for the social skills, I'm thinking it's important to the genre to keep Sense Motive. Otherwise, roll it into Perception.

Thespianus
2011-01-24, 02:51 PM
I think that sub-skills are a good idea-but I think they should cost less, not more.

I failed at explaining. The subskills did cost less, in a way.

Say you have 64 skill points to spend on the Firearms skill tree. You can either say "Give me 8 ranks in Firearms" and pay 8x8 = 64 skill points. You now have 8 ranks in firearms, a very good all around value, but not awesome. Also, very expensive.

Or, you can say "Give me 6 ranks in "Firearm", 3 ranks in "Rifle" and 1 rank in "M-16". This costs you 6x6 + 3x3 + 1x1 = 50 skill points. You now have 10 ranks in M-16. You are AWESOME at M16.

But you're not that great with pistols and artillery ( only 6 ranks)

Basically, the subskills represent specialization. If you pick "M16" and "Glock 22" as your favorite weapons, you can buy yourself 10 ranks in each (6-3-1) (cost 56 skill points) and spend the remaining 8 on 2 ranks in both "Grenade Launcher" and "Howizer" (2x2 + 2x2 )

Your skill tree would look like this:


Firearms: 6
Pistol: 3 (Total 9 )
Glock-22: 1 (Total 10)
Rifle: 3 (Total 9)
M-16: 1 (Total 10)
Howizers: 2 (Total 8)
-
Grenade Launchers: 2 (Total 8)

Or you could have the more general skill:

Firearms: 8

Does this make sense?

Comet
2011-01-24, 02:51 PM
Cooking needs to figure in there, somehow. Restoring strength through food is an age-old tradition of hot-blooded fighting types the world over. Especially in Japan. Itadakimasu.

Maybe a catch-all crafting skill, including cooking, mechanics, basketweaving and so forth?

Another thing: some systems have a meditation skill that grants you some bonuses of mental clarity (or even spiritual/physical strength) if you can stop and collect your thoughts through rituals or training or such. It could be a skill or a separate mechanic, but I still thought it was worth mentioning.

true_shinken
2011-01-24, 02:54 PM
languages: not skills, you know them or you don't.

I'm having languages like this - you have to spend X points to know a language, and it costs more points to know languages that differ more from your native language.
For example, if your native language is portuguese, spanish would cost 1 point, english 2 points and japanese 3 points.

Flickerdart
2011-01-24, 02:55 PM
Gun
More gun

ericgrau
2011-01-24, 02:56 PM
Perception, obviously.

As for the social skills, I'm thinking it's important to the genre to keep Sense Motive. Otherwise, roll it into Perception.

I think perception gets misused too much as if it were eyesight and hearing itself and could be intentionally left out. In 3e 90% of perception was supposed to be for noticing hiding things or things actively trying to be quiet; whereas DMs tend to use it 90% of the time for something else entirely. "Noticing hiding things" is a bit too narrow for a super simple skill system I think. Instead, if something's there and it's not foggy/hiding/etc. then the PCs see it. If it is foggy and out of the visible range or etc. they don't. Remember if it's hiding it needs something to hide behind, so PCs could still find it (with automatic success) by looking behind behind everything, shining lights in dark corners, etc. Likewise monsters would only find hiding PCs if they were suspicious. Now instead of the typical train wrecks where parties can never hide because one of them rolls low, they can do so until one of them leaves evidence of their presence and causes baddies to start looking behind things. Btw 3e solves this with the overcomplicated method of giving gigantic extra bonuses to hide if you're a good optimizer, which no one ever understands hence the train wrecks. This would be a very bad idea for a simple system. Just say you automatically see things unless hiding, then you automatically don't, unless you check behind the bush, then you automatically do. Simple, no minute spent rolling perception checks every 5 minutes.

Oh and since stealth is in agility (or its own skill by the OP) you simply make it a low flat DC to hide. If you fail you are in plain sight b/c your gun is sticking out around the corner or whatever stupid reason. Hence the low DC, heck make it DC 5. Excessively clunky guys still fail, but no more train-wrecks. Now you can have entire parties sneaking around a la movies.

I'd roll sense motive into general social skills.

true_shinken
2011-01-24, 03:02 PM
I think perception gets misused too much as if it were eyesight and hearing itself and could be intentionally left out.
You make a fair point, but in any setting with ninjas, Stealth/Perception are simply needed.

ericgrau
2011-01-24, 03:03 PM
Hence the alternate methods in the long-winded paragraph. Making sure you leave no bodies, no combat noise, etc. to attract suspicion is still a ton of fun. Or heck they do get suspicious, and do search the bushes but now you're behind the dojo.

The typical result in 3e is ok 1 guy fails his roll, hiding never works, 90% of players don't know how to get the +15, ninjas can't exist. Also since DMs overuse 3e spot everyone and his great aunt has ranks in it.

Thespianus
2011-01-24, 03:05 PM
Gun
More gun

The game system may have been called Guns, Guns, Guns.

I'm not making this up. ;)

*google*

Ah, it was a weapon design system, not a game in it self: http://www.amazon.com/3G3-Guns-Weapon-design-any/dp/0943891191

Totally Guy
2011-01-24, 03:19 PM
Most Bizarre skill list ever:

Breaking: Breaking reduces the rating of tech or interface through hacking or sabotage.
Cultivation: Cultivation creates old-world technology.
Ephemera: Ephemera infl uences short-term memories through art, music or philosophy.
Flood/Bleeding: Flood/bleeding hacks the brain to alter, remove or implant long-term memories.
Ghosting: Ghosting allows you to duck sensors and security so you can move unseen on the station.
Mobbing: Mobbing creates new and repairs burned-out interface.
Negotiation: Negotiation is used to form binding contracts through the ancient art of deal-making.
Printing: Printing creates tech using matter printers.
Recycling: Recycling repairs burned-out or broken tech and creates new tech by merging extant pieces.
Shaping: Shapers manipulate others through subtle use of body language.
Social Engineering: Social engineering is used to force another character through verbal cues and misdirection to do or reveal what he otherwise would not.
Switching: Switchers swap identities of users in the Aggregate.
Thin Slicing: Thin slicing is used to determine the value or validity of information through gut reaction assessments or cool-hunting.
Wetwork: Wetwork damages or destroys bodies and temporarily removes a user from play while his body is repaired or regrown.


I love this long ol' skill list:


Administrator
Apiarist (Bee keeper)
Archivist
Armorer
Baker
Boatcrafter
Brewer
Carpenter
Cartographer
Cook
Deceiver
Fighter
Glazier
Haggler
Harvester
Healer
Hunter
Instructor
Insectrist
Labourer
Lorekeeper
Militarist
Miller
Orator
Pathfinder
Persuader
Potter
Scientist
Scout
Smith
Stonemason
Survivalist
Weather Watcher
Weaver
Knowledge Skills

Which games are these from? :smalltongue:

Lord Vampyre
2011-01-24, 03:37 PM
Honestly, I preferred the skill list from Tales from the Floating Vagabond.

Skills like: Swing long pointy thing, and Swing long pointy thing with panache.

Then for guns you had: gun, big gun, OMG gun, and don't point that thing at my planet.

Kerrin
2011-01-24, 03:50 PM
There was one skill system that I really liked, I just can't remember the game system. It might even have been something homebrewn, but skills were split into categories, and each category (say "Firearms" or "Movement") had subcategories ("Rifle", "Pistol", "Heavy Weapons" and "Climbing", "Acrobatics", "Stealth"), and each of those had one more subcategory ("Glock 22", "Desert Eagle", etc, "Rock Climbing", "Cat Buglary", etc)
If I recall correctly, the game Top Secret had a multi-tiered skill system akin to this - though it's been a lot of years since I looked at that game and would have to dig up my copy at home to be sure.

icefractal
2011-01-24, 04:29 PM
Which games are these from?
For the first one, I'm going to guess: FreeMarket

No idea on the second.

Totally Guy
2011-01-24, 04:54 PM
For the first one, I'm going to guess: FreeMarket

No idea on the second.

Yeah.

But I must confess that for the second one I changed a skill that would have made it obvious.

The skill should read: Loremouse

erikun
2011-01-24, 07:57 PM
Um... huh? Which system are you looking at modifying the skill list? 4e? M&M? WoD? Or are you creating your own from scratch?

For a wuxia/Street Fighter style game, I would think that these skills would be necessary to cover.

Melee Fighting/Fisticuffs
Ranged Combat/Sniping
Chi Generation
Detection (both spotting enemies and sensing power levels)
Evasion
Mental Combat
Brute Strength/Physical Dexterity/Resilience
Tactics/Intelligence
Persuasion/Diplomancy
Speed
Animal Handling/Mounted Combat

From there, you would also want to consider how to apply knowledge, languages, and wealth. Skills aren't necessary - you can simply say "you know X" for anything important - but you can still use 'tiers' of knowledge. Knowing how to forge nails isn't the same as knowing how to forge swords, after all.

I liked the idea of a Gastronomy skill, to determine how much you can eat, how fast you can eat it, and how quickly you can process food into recoverable energy. :smallredface: It seems rather appropriate for the genre.

LibraryOgre
2011-01-24, 08:08 PM
Don't forget:

Basket-Weaving
Boot-licking
Make Howitzer from Toaster
Marital Arts
Running in High Heels
Screaming
Spurious Logic
Urination

Looks like you've played HoL. ;-)

Seriously, though, I think Thespianus's list is good, but I would remove language, making it instead a trait (e.g. "Linguist") instead of a skill.

Myth
2011-01-24, 09:06 PM
Character Optimization, obviously. Max it.

true_shinken
2011-01-25, 03:22 PM
Um... huh? Which system are you looking at modifying the skill list? 4e? M&M? WoD? Or are you creating your own from scratch?
I'm creating it from scratch.


For a wuxia/Street Fighter style game, I would think that these skills would be necessary to cover.
Combat will not be resolved by skills. There is a Technique attribute, and you use this plus some other attribute (Strenght for brutal/grappling moves, Agility for acrobatic move, Intelligence for precision moves, Guile for dirty tricks, etc) plus maneuver's accuracy modifier plus 2d6 to get the maneuver's accuracy. The defender does a similar roll for his defensive maneuver.


From there, you would also want to consider how to apply knowledge, languages, and wealth. Skills aren't necessary - you can simply say "you know X" for anything important - but you can still use 'tiers' of knowledge. Knowing how to forge nails isn't the same as knowing how to forge swords, after all.
I'll have a broad category called 'abilities'.
An ability can be proficiency with a sword, knowing specific stuff, etc. Basically, abilities are stuff I can't fill under other stuff. :smalltongue:


I liked the idea of a Gastronomy skill, to determine how much you can eat, how fast you can eat it, and how quickly you can process food into recoverable energy. :smallredface: It seems rather appropriate for the genre.
I'll add this as an advantage or trait. :smallwink:

Chess435
2011-01-25, 03:29 PM
Profession (Therapist)

I let one of my players take ranks in it.