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View Full Version : 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?



Chells
2011-01-24, 03:05 PM
I tossed a Headband of Intellect into game treasure. It ended up in the druid's hands. He was about to put it on when it occured to him that with a 3 intelegence he could teach his companion the rudiments of common. Any other player this might have been a seen as a great idea but the player in question already irritates the group with his companion antics (He's a good guy but doesn't know when enough is enough). So the whole table collectivelly groaned until it occured to them that a 3 INTcreature is not an animal any more and so cannot be a companion. I told them I'd hit the books and get back to them.

What this really made me realize is I need to talk to the druid and get him to stop monopolizing the table with jokes that the rest of the players can't be part of. I'll do that sometime this week but the actual question I'm still not sure about. So what's the verdict? Without the druid taking something like improved companion does the + to INT negate the animal companion bond?
Thanks

CapnCJ
2011-01-24, 03:07 PM
I once tried to put a hat on my dog. He knocked it off and started to eat it. Just sayin'.

Mordokai
2011-01-24, 03:11 PM
You're the DM. What you say, goes. Period, end of discussion.

It's not nice, but it's your right.

Squark
2011-01-24, 03:17 PM
I'd say that the temporary enhancement bonus won't allow the creature to actually learn anything, or at least that any progress made would be forgotten.


If the real problem here is the player, you need to deal with that. Don't approach the issue indirectly- just tell the guy you need to talk about his antics. I'm not saying you should be rude or critical or anything, but basing your decisions on the annoying antics of a player is a bad idea.

Waker
2011-01-24, 03:19 PM
I would rule that it is still an animal. The item only increases the intelligence for as long as it is worn. It's a bit more of a gray area were Fox's Cunning used with Permanency.

Greenish
2011-01-24, 03:21 PM
With a quick glance at the druid entry in SRD, I didn't see anything preventing them from keeping a companion with 3+ int. I'm probably missing something, but maybe it's just Awaken that has the specific language to prevent it (and the way Awaken is written makes it sound like it's the type change that disqualifies the recipient from remaining an AC).

You're the DM. What you say, goes. Period, end of discussion.That's not very helpful. :smallamused:

Callista
2011-01-24, 03:21 PM
Yes, I agree; the animal is still an animal, albeit with enhanced intelligence. If you were to increase the animal's INT with a Wish, that would be different. I agree that he would forget what he learned while he had the headband on if he were to remove it.

I don't see why being able to use Common to communicate with your animal companion would be a problem; wizards can communicate with their familiars, and that doesn't cause any issues, at least none that I'm aware of.

Besides, it will force your problem player to RP his animal companion, and more RP is a good thing.

Vladislav
2011-01-24, 03:21 PM
Once an animal companion gains Int 3+, it is no longer an animal, but a proper NPC under the control of the DM. As such, if the DM says, "your former companion gets smarter and decides he doesn't want to serve you anymore", he is within his rights to do so.

Unless a character has a feat or ability that specifically allows him to control another sentient creature (such as Paladin's mount), I'd say Int +3 means he (the creature) gets to make his own mind.

Callista
2011-01-24, 03:23 PM
He's had his own mind before, though. If he wants to stay an animal companion, why wouldn't he?

So here's the question: How well has that animal been treated while it was an animal companion? Would it want to stay?

WarKitty
2011-01-24, 03:23 PM
Yes, I agree; the animal is still an animal, albeit with enhanced intelligence. If you were to increase the animal's INT with a Wish, that would be different. I agree that he would forget what he learned while he had the headband on if he were to remove it.

I don't see why being able to use Common to communicate with your animal companion would be a problem; wizards can communicate with their familiars, and that doesn't cause any issues, at least none that I'm aware of.

Besides, it will force your problem player to RP his animal companion, and more RP is a good thing.

I wouldn't count on the more RP is good thing. If the problem is the player likes to be the center of attention, sometimes more RP just gives them an easy justification for it.

Mordokai
2011-01-24, 03:24 PM
That's not very helpful. :smallamused:

It helps, does it not? Yeah, it's the last way out, but if all else fails...

MammonAzrael
2011-01-24, 03:25 PM
I see this like Gunther from Futurama. As long as the headband is on, the the animal will have sentience. Though in this case the level of retardation may in fact make it less capable than when it only had instincts.

Actually, that is how I'd play it. Int 3 is so close to functionally incompetent and cannot be a valid character that granting it to a creature that previously was a purely animal intelligence is going to make it worse, as these new high brain functions make it behave differently, hesitate, ponder, question orders as bet it can, and so much more.

Also, yes, talk to your druid. Full-table groan antics need to be politely dealt with.

Greenish
2011-01-24, 03:31 PM
Int 3 … cannot be a valid characterYes it can. Below that, no, but int 3 is technically a playable character. In fact, WotC had a tip somewhere that when you've rolled poorly, you could just take half-orc for the strength and put the lowest score to int, since it can't go below 3.

MeeposFire
2011-01-24, 03:32 PM
Remember that there is more to learning a language than just intelligence and even at 3 int it would take a human a long time to learn a language at adulthood (and if they do not know a language at all it can be nearly impossible as evidenced by the times we have found people with no language and trying to teach them language is extremely difficult). Further most animals lack the ability to speak even if they have the intelligence.

Callista
2011-01-24, 03:34 PM
Yes it can. Below that, no, but int 3 is technically a playable character. In fact, WotC had a tip somewhere that when you've rolled poorly, you could just take half-orc for the strength and put the lowest score to int, since it can't go below 3.Yup, you can play INT 3. It's an RP challenge, but it's possible--it just means you're in the lowest half-percent of the population as far as intelligence goes. In the Real World, many people in that group can take care of themselves, live either on their own or with family/spouse, and hold unskilled jobs. So it's not as big a problem as you might think--though, mechanically, you're going to have serious skill point issues.

Yeah, it would take a while to teach the animal Common... still, I think it's a cool idea and I still wouldn't forbid it.

Mordokai
2011-01-24, 03:37 PM
...--though, mechanically, you're going to have serious skill point issues.

Nah, not really. INT 3 half orc fighter has the same number of skill points as INT 8 half orc fighter and the latter is significantly brighter than the former.

gbprime
2011-01-24, 03:39 PM
You'd have to name him Algernon, though. :smallamused:

Chells
2011-01-24, 03:39 PM
Once an animal companion gains Int 3+, it is no longer an animal, but a proper NPC under the control of the DM. As such, if the DM says, "your former companion gets smarter and decides he doesn't want to serve you anymore", he is within his rights to do so.

Unless a character has a feat or ability that specifically allows him to control another sentient creature (such as Paladin's mount), I'd say Int +3 means he (the creature) gets to make his own mind.

Interesting. Hadn't thought about the creature becoming NPC AND sticking around. Actually he has been treated well by the druid. The rest of the party at times takes out their frustrations with the way the druid behaves on the creature but nothing horrible. So in my eyes that as long as the headband is on the animal he is my job to play. No headband and I'll keep letting the druid run him (though even before the headband I ran the animal when appropriate).


Besides, it will force your problem player to RP his animal companion, and more RP is a good thing.
Callista Role-playing is a great thing but as WarKitty pointed out the player really does command the spotlight way too often. He can burn through 20 minutes of stupid animal tricks already I can easily see that time doubling if the druid and animal could converse at the same time.

I realize that I need to fix the root problem which is the player's behavior but until I saw this fight building it really hadn't seemed quite so bad.

Keld Denar
2011-01-24, 03:43 PM
Its been stated, but I'll flesh it out a bit more. An animal with an Int score of 3+ ceases to be an animal and becomes a Magical Beast. Magical Beasts are not valid targets for ACs without special dispensation, so the animal can, and should, leave the PC.

Plus, you can then get into all kinds of fun moral debates about sapience. Technically, taking off the hat would DESTROY the creatures sapience. From certain points of view, this is the same as killing the creature.

Have fun with that little can of worms...:smallcool:

Waker
2011-01-24, 03:44 PM
Well, bear in mind that even if the animal is smarter, it doesn't actually entitle them to speech. Sure, the Druid could use Speak to Animals, but he could have done that before.

Crow
2011-01-24, 03:44 PM
I once tried to put a hat on my dog. He knocked it off and started to eat it. Just sayin'.

This here. For the lolz.

Chells
2011-01-24, 03:45 PM
Plus, you can then get into all kinds of fun moral debates about sapience. Technically, taking off the hat would DESTROY the creatures sapience. From certain points of view, this is the same as killing the creature.

Have fun with that little can of worms...:smallcool:

Oh that is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Coidzor
2011-01-24, 03:48 PM
So the whole table collectivelly groaned until it occured to them that a 3 INTcreature is not an animal any more and so cannot be a companion.

Err, no. The type doesn't change simply by the intelligence being boosted, otherwise fox's cunning would be a massive debuff to a druid's animal companion, taking off all of those extra HD.

It's entirely up to you whether the animal companion bond is dissolved in such a way, but any ruling would be homebrew since the rules just don't address it.

Now, giving it sapience with an Int of 4, 6, or 8 would definitely have it make sense for it to take on more NPC characteristics... I don't think one could just order such an animal companion into committing obvious suicide without bluffing or otherwise convincing it that it wasn't suicide or was somehow worth it. I believe raising its intelligence would by RAW have handle animal stop affecting it, if I'm remembering correctly. But this is just personal feelings/recollections rather than explicit RAW.


The Handle Animal Guide has some thoughts on the matter of animals in general and a bit about animal companions as well. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10396.0)

I believe as well that a relatively common thing is for DM's to decide to just have such NPCs decide to leave the druid's company or become cohorts and houserule it to fit the leadership scheme.


What this really made me realize is I need to talk to the druid and get him to stop monopolizing the table with jokes that the rest of the players can't be part of.

This seems to be a separate issue that needs to be dealt with if it's aggravating the rest of the group, yes.


An animal with an Int score of 3+ ceases to be an animal and becomes a Magical Beast.

Your justification for this? Considering that it's not being achieved with the Awaken spell.


It helps, does it not? Yeah, it's the last way out, but if all else fails...

Not for coming to a conclusion one way or the other, no.

Stanlee
2011-01-24, 03:58 PM
It would still be an animal, sure, but I think at that point while it were to wear that headband it acts more like a natural beast or something like that.

If the animal were to become sentient, and it choose to stay with the group it should have its own initiative, not have to listen to the druid, no more empathic link or any of that stuff. Think about it. The premise of a man and his beast is a symbiotic relationship that they rely on each other. Dogs, in real life, have evolved to show emotion in in their facial features to communicate with humans because the humans can do things for them they they are not intelligent to do for themselves, like go to Walmart and get them a treat.

Now if that animal were smart enough to learn on their own and begin to understand the world as we do, then their desire to follow us would be second to them trying to figure it out themselves, no matter how difficult or impossible it would be. Think of small children of mentally challenged individuals. If they have the mental capacity to survive on their own, they will try to do what they think is the best course of action.

Bottom line, you would have to share the XP with it and I don't think anyone in the group would want that.

Moginheden
2011-01-24, 03:59 PM
I'd say the creature is now under DM control as an NPC. It can learn a language and even gain class levels as any character can. (2 skill points per language. with an int of 3 that means 2 levels to get a single one, likely common.)

If the headband is removed all class levels and associated bonuses, (like languages) are disabled, but not removed. If it gains enough int to qualify for class levels again it gets them back.

I'd let it keep all the bonuses it got from being an animal companion up to the point it became sentient, but these count as a racial level adjustment, so leveling up in a class will take a while.

If for example both it and the druid level up then the headband is removed, it would become an animal companion again with all it's benefits from the druid's level reduced by one and all class benefits lost.

While it's an NPC without a language the druid can still order it like he did as a companion... but it might not do as it's told.

Greenish
2011-01-24, 04:00 PM
Your justification for this? Considering that it's not being achieved with the Awaken spell.Ah, missed it the first time. It's in the entry for Animal type: "no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal".

Coidzor
2011-01-24, 04:07 PM
Ah, missed it the first time. It's in the entry for Animal type: "no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal".

Oh, goody, a typeless creature.

Chells
2011-01-24, 04:35 PM
Ah, missed it the first time. It's in the entry for Animal type: "no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal".

That is exactly the rule the other players were quoting to prove that it couldn't be an ANIMAL companion anymore.

As for EXP would it just be a cohort and so no EXP loss to the other players?

Granted what I am beginning to realize is that the person who is most likely going to be affected by a stupid +2 abilty buff item is me for crying out loud. Who would have thought a basic game item could possibly generate me having to roleplay a full time NPC. This is why I outlawed leadership. I have enough to do DMing the game without playing a character too. Ok I'm done bitching. Sorry about that.

Vladislav
2011-01-24, 04:39 PM
As for EXP would it just be a cohort and so no EXP loss to the other players?It can only be a cohort if the Druid has the Leadership feat. You can't just gain a cohort willy-nilly. Normally, it'd just be an NPC who gets his share of XP.

Innis Cabal
2011-01-24, 04:43 PM
Once an animal companion gains Int 3+, it is no longer an animal, but a proper NPC under the control of the DM. As such, if the DM says, "your former companion gets smarter and decides he doesn't want to serve you anymore", he is within his rights to do so.

Unless a character has a feat or ability that specifically allows him to control another sentient creature (such as Paladin's mount), I'd say Int +3 means he (the creature) gets to make his own mind.

There is of course no rule that directly states that. What exactly does it's type become then? And how does it change the type of the creature by having an int of 3? Does it become a humanoid under some mysterious power? It's not a magical creature to be certain.

Mastikator
2011-01-24, 04:44 PM
Maybe the animal can start taking character levels and be a PC and fellow adventurer?:smallbiggrin:

notagain111
2011-01-24, 04:53 PM
In my mind, the best RAW example to help with this discussion is found in the Pathfinder rules for the druid's animal companion.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions

Every 4 HD, an Animal companion gets an ability boost, just like a PC. There are no restrictions on this, so you could in theory pick Int.

Relevant rule here:
If an animal companion increases its Intelligence to 10 or higher, it gains bonus skill ranks as normal. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can purchase ranks in any skill.

So by the rules, you could naturally bump your companion's Int to 3 and spend a skill rank in Linguistics (Think decipher script, speak language from 3.5 mashed together) to teach the animal a language. It then by the rules be able to understand the language it has been taught both written and spoken, but whether the animal is physically capable of speaking in the language is still questionable, based on the animal chosen.

At no point does it ever state that if the animal has a higher than animal intelligence score (Read: Greater than 2) it no longer becomes a companion.

Coidzor
2011-01-24, 05:02 PM
Re: the Type issue. I'd say that the RAI is fairly clear that it's a reminder of the natural abilities of such a creature, whereas magic and magic items are clearly outside of the realm of a creature's natural abilities. Further, without explicitly changing something's type or having something laid down to govern such a change, a creature remains its original Type. But, in the end it's ultimately a matter of DM adjudication rather than being clear-cut by RAW.
It can only be a cohort if the Druid has the Leadership feat. You can't just gain a cohort willy-nilly. Normally, it'd just be an NPC who gets his share of XP.

Well, certainly not without DM approval, but, then, DM approval is a prerequisite for leadership anyway. And a not-inconsequential camp considers it something that shouldn't be a feat anyway.

But, yeah, if leadership is banned then remind him of this and let him know that it's a no-go for that reason.

And in the future, discourage him from taking minion master classes if he's going to cause issues with them and you can't work that out.

Stanlee
2011-01-24, 05:03 PM
Maybe the animal can start taking character levels and be a PC and fellow adventurer?:smallbiggrin:

Likewise, it should also take part of the party EXP.

Fitz10019
2011-01-25, 07:11 AM
It becomes an NPC Magical Beast. Check the entry on the Celestial Lion, Int 3 and it's type is Magical Beast/Augmented Animal. I think this is pretty clear.

Czin
2011-01-25, 07:13 AM
I'd rule that it would remain your animal companion, but you would have to treat it much more like an equal than you did before. If it did gain any class levels; I'd also rule that the class levels would remain if it were to enter an anti-magic field but it wouldn't know how to use them unless you trained it to do so without the band.

hewhosaysfish
2011-01-25, 07:34 AM
It's not a magical creature to be certain.
Why not?
It's magical, being magically intelligent.
It's a creature.

Coidzor
2011-01-25, 07:50 AM
Why not?
It's magical, being magically intelligent.
It's a creature.

Because it's type would change based upon the application and removal of spells and a magic item that don't specify anything about type change and the types and subtypes specify nothing about an animal's type changing to magical beast except with the application of specific templates.

So, if you take the animals can't have an int greater than 2 as prohibitive rather than proscriptive for the creation of new creatures, you're still creating rules when you change its type to Magical Beast. The most you could say without making new rules is that it somehow loses its type, which just gets borked real fast, and even then is kinda skirting the bit about making up new rules in the first place by the possibility of having a Typeless creature..

But everything you can do in regards to it is houseruling because the rules don't really cover it.

MonkeyBusiness
2011-01-25, 08:06 AM
Did anyone else think of Buddy from Up when they read this?

Giving the animal companion intellect (no matter how low) might actually solve the problem of the druid dominating roleplaying with his critter. As an NPC with a rudimentary grasp of language the other players will be able to interact with the critter as well. It also puts the situation more under the control of the DM.

One fun idea: with a toddler-like intellect, an animal companion (or whatever we're calling it now) might repeat things it's heard players say at inappropriate times. It is also very likely to say exactly what it thinks. Diplomacy defenestrates at about this time.

.

Zherog
2011-01-25, 10:37 AM
It becomes an NPC Magical Beast. Check the entry on the Celestial Lion, Int 3 and it's type is Magical Beast/Augmented Animal. I think this is pretty clear.

Of course a celestial lion is a magical beast. The template does this:


Size and Type: Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged. Size is unchanged. Celestial creatures encountered on the Material Plane have the extraplanar subtype.

The template explicitly changes the lion to a magical beast, not the Intelligence score.

Urpriest
2011-01-25, 10:42 AM
Animals can't have Int 3+ according to the type description in the MM. However, that type description doesn't say that they become magical beasts when their Int increases. It simply says that "no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal".

Let's think about Int 1-2. Creatures with Int 1 or 2 cannot be played as player characters. They generally get no starting languages, and have no culture, limited tool use, etc. Skills like Handle Animal reference such creatures in general without reference to type, and certain types are restricted to Int 1-2. While some types are restricted to Int 1-2 and some to Int -, none are restricted to any other Int range. Thus, Int 1 and 2 are qualitatively different from other Int scores.

Look at the nonabilities. Nonabilities behave as if they were a score of zero, but with certain qualitative differences. Unlike a hypothetical natural score of zero, it is impossible to raise a nonability to another score. Clearly the point of this is to prevent a quantitative boost from altering the qualitative category.

My suggestion is that Int 1 and 2 (acquired naturally through type) should follow the same rules. For design consistency we should read the animal type's restriction to Int < 3 as akin to a nonability. Animals have Int <3. Giving them Fox's Cunning or a Headband of Intellect cannot change that, because Int 1-2 is a qualitative range. So the Headband does nothing.

As an aside, there are no rules to prevent animal companions from learning languages. While they do not have starting languages from Int (regardless of Int score/boosts) and there is rules precedent for not allowing them to speak, nothing stops them from spending skill points to understand a language.

ka_bna
2011-01-25, 11:35 AM
So by the rules, you could naturally bump your companion's Int to 3 and spend a skill rank in Linguistics (Think decipher script, speak language from 3.5 mashed together) to teach the animal a language. It then by the rules be able to understand the language it has been taught both written and spoken, but whether the animal is physically capable of speaking in the language is still questionable, based on the animal chosen.

At no point does it ever state that if the animal has a higher than animal intelligence score (Read: Greater than 2) it no longer becomes a companion.
Not that it matters for RAW or RAI, but in my game I did this: I upgraded an AC dog from int 2 to int 3 and gave him a pearl of speech, Common (MIC). Not that it has said anything helpful, but it was just for fun:smalltongue:
Also, in my game, we still treat it as an animal companion.

Chilingsworth
2011-01-25, 12:06 PM
Simpelist thing might be to say that the headband is made for something with a humanoid head. Unless the AC is a primate or somesuch, the item just falls off before it can take effect. EDIT: Also, note that even if the headband could stay on, the AC would still get the same number of skill points it got per HD without it. items and spells don't increase skillpoints, with the exception of tomes and wish spells (i.e. inherent bonuses)

Fouredged Sword
2011-01-25, 12:36 PM
Enhancement bonuses don't grant skillpoints. Learning a language is a skillpoint cost, so I would rule no if this was on my table. Let the dog act very smart, for a dog, and learn an extra 6 tricks while wearing the headband.

Coidzor
2011-01-25, 01:12 PM
Enhancement bonuses don't grant skillpoints. Learning a language is a skillpoint cost, so I would rule no if this was on my table. Let the dog act very smart, for a dog, and learn an extra 6 tricks while wearing the headband.

What about when it gains new HD and due to its intellect can choose how to allocate its skill points?

jseah
2011-01-25, 02:11 PM
That's actually a pretty cool concept / character goal.

A *really* long lived druid takes on an animal companion and gives it a headband and takes it out on training/leveling until it has gained enough stat points to get 3 int. Then he lets it go it's own way and picks another AC.

His goal is to slowly raise the general intelligence of a type of animal in the area in an attempt to get them recognized as a proto-civilization to avoid the industrial nation next door from encroaching on their natural habitat.

Or to pick a more environmentalist view, to raise the intelligence of nature in general so it can *fight back!*...

^^ Could be both a player and a BBEG. I shall co-op it for my own use.

EDIT: a more disturbing thought.

If Int3 animals can take levels, they can take *druid* levels.
Potentially, an Int3 Dog with druid levels can recruit its own children as ACs then use the same trick via self-crafted headbands to propagate the line... >.>

Curmudgeon
2011-01-25, 02:28 PM
What this really made me realize is I need to talk to the druid and get him to stop monopolizing the table with jokes that the rest of the players can't be part of.
It takes more than one person to make a joke. And you are running the animal companion.

This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures as appropriate for its kind. There's nothing there that dictates control of the animal other than to accompany the Druid. All animal companion actions are always up to the DM. The animal knows a certain number of tricks, and the Druid must always make a Handle Animal check to get the animal to perform the trick. For that matter, any character can get the animal to perform a trick with Handle Animal, including other PCs. The only restriction is that the animal won't harm or abandon the Druid.

If you've been letting the Druid run the animal companion as another character, you've been screwing up.

MeeposFire
2011-01-25, 04:42 PM
What about when it gains new HD and due to its intellect can choose how to allocate its skill points?

Does your wizard get more skill points for wearing the headband? In games I have been in you did not get extra skill points unless the boost was permanent.

ka_bna
2011-01-25, 04:47 PM
EDIT: a more disturbing thought.

If Int3 animals can take levels, they can take *druid* levels.
Potentially, an Int3 Dog with druid levels can recruit its own children as ACs then use the same trick via self-crafted headbands to propagate the line... >.>
Only problem might be its life-span. You can only level by killing cats so far. Or is there a spell that gets a dog a longer lifespan? (Awaken doesn't do it (which is one of the drawbacks), and I'm not counting reincarnate)

Tavar
2011-01-25, 04:49 PM
Does your wizard get more skill points for wearing the headband? In games I have been in you did not get extra skill points unless the boost was permanent.

Right, but any being gains a HD, they gain at least 1 skill point as well. Which they could then spend on, say, Speak Language(probably can't actually speak it, as that's physiological, but they could then understand it).

begooler
2011-01-25, 04:54 PM
Is a PC with intelligence damage or drain that brings him down below 3 INT no longer a PC?

Edit:
Okay, fun times. Attack his intelligence. Make him the animal's companion for a day. The animal has to roll a handle stupid human check to push him to cast spells.

Kuma Kode
2011-01-25, 05:15 PM
Does your wizard get more skill points for wearing the headband? In games I have been in you did not get extra skill points unless the boost was permanent. This is correct. Only permanent bonuses actually grant skill point increases. Essentially, temporary things can't create permanent benefits. Since the animal would be temporarily enhanced, its type would not change and its would not otherwise be able to have any permanent benefits.


Right, but any being gains a HD, they gain at least 1 skill point as well. Which they could then spend on, say, Speak Language(probably can't actually speak it, as that's physiological, but they could then understand it). Though it's not RAW, in reality a creature must have both a brain capable of handling speech and exposure to a language at an early age. Humans are hard-wired to be able to speak, but if we somehow miss the window for learning it as infants, we lose that capability. Causal relationships between sounds and events can be learned, but that is a pale imitation of actual language, and is something animals already have.

For example, my cat will stop what he's doing and hurry away if I snap "QUIT" at him. This doesn't mean he understands what the word means, it just means he can form a relationship between the sound and the ensuing behavior.

Furthermore, some monsters are specifically marked as being unable to learn or understand language, despite having an intelligence score greater than 2. Indicating that creatures can be wired in different ways despite having similar intelligence scores.

I would say that even if the animal gets smarter, it doesn't suddenly become human-like in its thinking. It may be smarter, but its brain is still wired in the same way, just more efficiently. If it couldn't learn language before, it can't now, hence why the Awaken spell exists. It actually rewires an animal to have human-like thoughts, otherwise the same could be achieved with a Fox's Cunning.

Coidzor
2011-01-25, 05:36 PM
Though it's not RAW

Exactly, it's not RAW, very little of this discussion truly is. My post was in response to his post to show his oversight in the realm of the skillpoints acquired via acquisition of new HD.

MeeposFire
2011-01-25, 10:53 PM
Exactly, it's not RAW, very little of this discussion truly is. My post was in response to his post to show his oversight in the realm of the skillpoints acquired via acquisition of new HD.

Except you don't since it is not a permanent boost in intelligence.

Coidzor
2011-01-25, 11:01 PM
Except you don't since it is not a permanent boost in intelligence.

Just making sure, we are on the same page about what we're talking about, right?

Tavar
2011-01-25, 11:22 PM
Except you don't since it is not a permanent boost in intelligence.

So....a level 6 fighter, upon reaching level 7, doesn't gain skill points?

That's new.

Innis Cabal
2011-01-26, 12:06 AM
So....a level 6 fighter, upon reaching level 7, doesn't gain skill points?

That's new.

No one is saying that. Since leveling to 7 is permanent outside of level drain or loss, which is a unique rule and you lose spell points because of it and other things to boot, you gain skill points. Slipping a X of intelligence + Y does not because it isn't a permanent source.


THE SRD

Animal Type
An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture.

Features
An animal has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

8-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric).
Good Fortitude and Reflex saves (certain animals have different good saves, for instance dire animals have good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves).
Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
Low-light vision.
Alignment: Always neutral.
Treasure: None.
Proficient with its natural weapons only. A noncombative herbivore uses its natural weapons as a secondary attack. Such attacks are made with a -5 penalty on the creature’s attack rolls, and the animal receives only ½ its Strength modifier as a damage adjustment.
Proficient with no armor unless trained for war.
Animals eat, sleep, and breathe.

That's what an animal is. It does say no creature with an int of 3 or higher can be an animal. It doesn't say what it becomes if it gets more.


The SRD again

Magical Beast Type
Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2. Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits.

Features
A magical beast has the following features.

10-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
A magical beast possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
Proficient with its natural weapons only.
Proficient with no armor.
Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe.

It states a magical animal can have an int of 3 or more. Also note that a Magical Beast also gains darkvision and a higher hit die. Does the companion get these on wearing the head band? No? Then it's not a magical animal.


Is the companion an animal? No. What is it? RAW doesn't say. Also, people are asuming that once you get a higher int score you become as smart as a human but really...that doesn't make sense. The companion isn't going to get any other abilities added on to it just because it's smarter. It won't get the knowledge of reading for being Int 7+. It remains an animal, just one that's better at understanding your commands.

Fizban
2011-01-26, 12:16 AM
Animals can't have Int 3+ according to the type description in the MM. However, that type description doesn't say that they become magical beasts when their Int increases. It simply says that "no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal".

Let's think about Int 1-2. Creatures with Int 1 or 2 cannot be played as player characters. They generally get no starting languages, and have no culture, limited tool use, etc. Skills like Handle Animal reference such creatures in general without reference to type, and certain types are restricted to Int 1-2. While some types are restricted to Int 1-2 and some to Int -, none are restricted to any other Int range. Thus, Int 1 and 2 are qualitatively different from other Int scores.

Look at the nonabilities. Nonabilities behave as if they were a score of zero, but with certain qualitative differences. Unlike a hypothetical natural score of zero, it is impossible to raise a nonability to another score. Clearly the point of this is to prevent a quantitative boost from altering the qualitative category.

My suggestion is that Int 1 and 2 (acquired naturally through type) should follow the same rules. For design consistency we should read the animal type's restriction to Int < 3 as akin to a nonability. Animals have Int <3. Giving them Fox's Cunning or a Headband of Intellect cannot change that, because Int 1-2 is a qualitative range. So the Headband does nothing.

As an aside, there are no rules to prevent animal companions from learning languages. While they do not have starting languages from Int (regardless of Int score/boosts) and there is rules precedent for not allowing them to speak, nothing stops them from spending skill points to understand a language.
Dude, you are amazing with the logic thing.

Guys, Urpriest just rocked this thread. His solution follows the letter of the rules while giving a more consistent answer than any others so far, and it doesn't even make any more work for the DM. Answering with "it doesn't work" is always an option, but this option makes perfect sense.

Next time I have a logic problem, I'm calling Urpriest :smallwink:

Tavar
2011-01-26, 12:47 AM
No one is saying that.
Except, MeeposFire is saying exactly that. Here's the following quote chain.


Does your wizard get more skill points for wearing the headband? In games I have been in you did not get extra skill points unless the boost was permanent.


Right, but any being gains a HD, they gain at least 1 skill point as well. Which they could then spend on, say, Speak Language(probably can't actually speak it, as that's physiological, but they could then understand it).


Except you don't since it is not a permanent boost in intelligence.


Just making sure, we are on the same page about what we're talking about, right?

We are saying that, when the animal gains a level, it gets a skill point. This skill point isn't due to magic, or anything, besides the fact that all creatures gain at least 1 skill point upon gaining a level. It could spends this skill point in Speak Language.

MeeposFire says you don't, because...?

Innis Cabal
2011-01-26, 01:13 AM
Except, MeeposFire is saying exactly that. Here's the following quote chain.


We are saying that, when the animal gains a level, it gets a skill point. This skill point isn't due to magic, or anything, besides the fact that all creatures gain at least 1 skill point upon gaining a level. It could spends this skill point in Speak Language.

MeeposFire says you don't, because...?

I see what he said. I think there's a misunderstanding going on here. Forgive me.


Dude, you are amazing with the logic thing.

Guys, Urpriest just rocked this thread. His solution follows the letter of the rules while giving a more consistent answer than any others so far, and it doesn't even make any more work for the DM. Answering with "it doesn't work" is always an option, but this option makes perfect sense.

Next time I have a logic problem, I'm calling Urpriest :smallwink:

Except it doesn't make sense. It's not a non-ability like an Ability Score -. It's ability Score 2. Which means it has an int score. The int score of 1 or 2 isn't qualitative of anything, any type can have an int score in that range if it can -HAVE- an int score. Animals just can't go higher then 2, which doesn't make it any more special or different a rule as a regular old ability score.

You'll note that having no int, thus claimed as a "non-ability" has a term associated with it each time. The term us used across the board for creatures with those same missing stats. An animal does not have such a term to it. It just has the rule it can't go above int 1 or 2. Stating the headband or any other method that would raise it's int score un-usable makes literaly no sense on the basis that it doesn't have an int score for the effective purpose.

If anything, the real answer to this by any RAW standing is it gains Augmented as it's subtype.


Augmented Subtype
A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

I think this sums it up nicely. The type of the Animal changes because it no longer has an int of 2. But it's still an animal, merely...oh my yes..augmented.

Coidzor
2011-01-26, 02:17 AM
Dude, you are amazing with the logic thing.

Guys, Urpriest just rocked this thread. His solution follows the letter of the rules while giving a more consistent answer than any others so far, and it doesn't even make any more work for the DM. Answering with "it doesn't work" is always an option, but this option makes perfect sense.

It does have a certain elegance, yes. :smallsmile:


Next time I have a logic problem, I'm calling Urpriest :smallwink:

I am suddenly reminded of an old avatar I ran into on some forum or another with a little cartoon Dr. Doom with a text bubble saying "Doom has come to solve your pitiful moral quandary."

And so I am now imagining Urpriest's avatar stroking its chin with evil cunning. It is brilliant.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-26, 02:42 AM
Wouldn't it be easier to simply handle the animal as slightly more intelligent? Like, almost Flipper or Lassie-smart. As long as the intelligence increase isn't permanent, they don't change type nor do they gain any other subtype.

Ionizer
2011-01-26, 03:20 AM
It takes more than one person to make a joke. And you are running the animal companion.
There's nothing there that dictates control of the animal other than to accompany the Druid. All animal companion actions are always up to the DM. The animal knows a certain number of tricks, and the Druid must always make a Handle Animal check to get the animal to perform the trick. For that matter, any character can get the animal to perform a trick with Handle Animal, including other PCs. The only restriction is that the animal won't harm or abandon the Druid.

If you've been letting the Druid run the animal companion as another character, you've been screwing up.


Came in to post something like this, except that Druids can Handle their Companions as a Free Action (with no stated limit, instead of a Move Action as normal), so essentially, you auto-succeed if you want your Companion to perform a trick it knows since the DC is only 10. If you need it to do something else, it's a move action (instead of a Full-Round Action as normal) to "Push" it at DC 25.

Essentially, a Druid can make an Animal Companion perform any trick it knows simply by spouting the command 20 times (Talking is a Free Action :smallwink:), but trying to force it do something (anything) else takes about 3 seconds and is much harder.

If the Druid is making the Animal Companion flank with the Rogue (without teaching it the Assist Attack trick from CAdv) or doing something else it's not explicitly trained to do, then he has to spend actions to do it. Also, you might want to make sure he spent the extra trick slot for the Companion to be able to attack stuff other than humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants and other animals. Otherwise, having Fido attack that Mind Flayer (or Owlbear, or Dragon...or about 75% of the Monster Manual) will require Druidy McTreeHugger to spend actions (possibly every turn, unless you rule that the animal companion continues it's previous order until given a different order or forced to retreat) that might not succeed.

But yeah, unless actively performing a trick, the DM is in control of the Animal Companion. Although, making sure the Companion knows the Heel trick can alleviate this, if the Druid makes sure to keep issuing the command at regular intervals. "Yea, we'd like to buy some--Heel--Rations and then the cleric needs 4 scrolls of--Heel--Lesser Restoration." "Yes, my liege, well slay--Heel--the dragon for you. The village will be--Heel--safe soon."

Urpriest
2011-01-26, 01:37 PM
Dude, you are amazing with the logic thing.

Guys, Urpriest just rocked this thread. His solution follows the letter of the rules while giving a more consistent answer than any others so far, and it doesn't even make any more work for the DM. Answering with "it doesn't work" is always an option, but this option makes perfect sense.

Next time I have a logic problem, I'm calling Urpriest :smallwink:

Ok if I sig some of this? I figure I'd better get on the ego-sig train while it's in the station.

MeeposFire
2011-01-26, 10:56 PM
Except, MeeposFire is saying exactly that. Here's the following quote chain.


We are saying that, when the animal gains a level, it gets a skill point. This skill point isn't due to magic, or anything, besides the fact that all creatures gain at least 1 skill point upon gaining a level. It could spends this skill point in Speak Language.

MeeposFire says you don't, because...?

I was actually talking about how you do not get extra skill points for being an animal and I was confusing the topic of the conversation. I did not receive the note that the conversation was using the normal single skill point to buy a rank in speak language (though note you need two)

I was just looking around for the rules of learning a language in game and looking in the speak language skill and there were no restrictions on intelligence level. Further the only rule about language with animals was a blurb at the top saying that they have no innate capacity for language. On top of that being that an animal only gets two skill points and so therefor unless you gave them 1+ books of intelligence and a +6 intelligence item they cannot get enough skill points to ever pick up a language. Lastly there is nothing I could find that says any change in intelligence dealing with animals would allow them to pick up a language explicitly by RAW (I can rationalize why it should but I have yet to see it spelled out).

Frog Dragon
2011-01-27, 02:55 AM
Speak Language is a skill. Two points in it earns you a language. Animals gain skill points. Assuming the animal has int 2 as a base, by 8HD, it can have int 4 and a single language.

MeeposFire
2011-01-27, 03:01 AM
Speak Language is a skill. Two points in it earns you a language. Animals gain skill points. Assuming the animal has int 2 as a base, by 8HD, it can have int 4 and a single language.

So you are saying it therefor can speak by RAW? Not arguing with you since outside of a little blurb saying "animals have no innate capacity for language" there is nothing I have seen that says an animal cannot pick up the speak language skill and thus learn how to speak.

Frog Dragon
2011-01-27, 03:04 AM
Innate Capacity can simply be taken to mean that they don't start with any languages. Which they don't. By RAW, it seems to me that an animal could learn a language. Maybe even speak it, if you want to throw all common sense to the wind.

MeeposFire
2011-01-27, 05:00 AM
Excellent then we are in agreement then.

Kylarra
2011-01-27, 09:06 AM
I thought we were already throwing all common sense to the wind once we started to play a fantasy game with magic involved? :smalltongue:

ShriekingDrake
2011-01-28, 10:15 AM
For what it's worth: in 2 of my groups, we play that an animal's intelligence just can't be raised outside Awakening and Wish (and its ilk). So, if you cast Chasing Perfecting on your Fleshraker Animal Companion, he'd not get a boost to intelligence, despite what the spell says, because, we've deemed that an Animal as a target just won't take that boost, even if Dex, Cha, and the other stats go up.