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Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 03:08 PM
I was tasked today with helping to improve the Rogue of a first-time player in our group. I would like to come up with a complete rebuild (keeping the general feel the same) and path of levels to take from now (level 11) to 20th level. Note: I'm not the DM for this, but he trusts me enough to let most reasonable things go.

He wants to focus mostly on combat ability, although still be able to act as an adequate skill monkey.

Here's what he has:

Human: Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4, using the Penetrating Strike ACF.

Str: 16 Int: 14
Dex: 18 Wis: 10
Con: 14 Cha: 12

Feats:
Human Bonus: Weapon Focus: Kukri
Level 1: TWF
Level 3: Daring Outlaw
Fighter 1: Dodge
Fighter 2:Mobility
Level 6: Imp TWF
Level 9: Craven
Fighter 4: Spring Attack
Craven and Penetrating Strike were suggested by me. He liked them so he wanted me to work on his character a bit.


Here's my plan for continuation (12-20):
- 1 level of Swordsage for Assassin's Stance + maneuvers that help trigger SA.
- Take Improved Initiative at 12 and Shadow Blade at 15
- Nightsong Enforcer the rest of the way.


Now, here's my plan for a rebuild:
- Silverbrow Human*
- Start with a few Rogue/Swashbuckler levels. Using Penetrating Strike and Arcane Stunt.
- Dip 2 levels into Totemist for Blink Shirt, Claws of the Wyrm, and Dragon Tail.
- Enter Telflammar Shadowlord for Shadowpounce and all those nice invisibility spells.
- Finish off with more Rogue levels, with enough Swashbuckler in there to give +16 BAB.

*Claws and Tail require Dragonblood subtype.

I would like some help on making this build, however. I would like to keep it relatively simple to play. I have a few questions about streamlining.

1) I chose the draconic soulmelds because they end up giving the most attacks, however this is at the expense of skillpoints. There is a soulmeld in Dragon 350 (Chaos Roc's Span) that gives 2 wing attacks for one meld, but they are reach weapons, making them hard to combine with TWF. Is there some way of making them nonreach so that I can do away with the draconic stuff(also, he's CN, so there's some flavor synnergy there)?

2) I would, ideally, like to have him keep the Blink Shirt permanently bound to his totem chakra so that he can Dim Door as a move action. Is there an easy way to get a reusable standard action teleport (aside from magic items/ easier to reuse than shadow hand teleports)?

3) In spite of the above comment, I know that Telfalmmar Shadowlord gains Shadow Jump, but there are a few issues with this.

First, there is almost always a shadow cast by something realistically (my appologies to the catgirls), unless it is 100% dark. Does this ability work all the time, with the limitation as flavor, rather than ruling?

Second, both Shadow Jump and Blink Shirt work like Dim Door, so you can't do anything after the teleport/full attack resolves. Is there a way to act after Dim Door?

EDIT:
4) What are people's thoughts on the Psychis Rogue variant and would it be able to trade away Danger Sense for Penetrating Strike?


We are meeting next Sunday, and I hope to have something to present to him by then.

Thank you.

Greenish
2011-01-24, 03:12 PM
What sources do you have available, and what level of optimization is called for?

Also, are you sure growing a tail and claws and teleporting around keeps the same "general feeling"?

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-24, 03:16 PM
What sources do you have available, and what level of optimization is called for?

Also, are you sure growing a tail and claws and teleporting around keeps the same "general feeling"?

While I agree with the tail and claws, the fact the original rogue has spring attack, it seems that this guy wanted some kind of mobile fighter that could dart through the battlefield and attack, while still being sneaky.

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 03:31 PM
What sources do you have available, and what level of optimization is called for?

Also, are you sure growing a tail and claws and teleporting around keeps the same "general feeling"?

Good point, I guess the natural attacks might remove the general feeling, I just wanted to try to get the most out of those full attacks. I'll run it by him and see what he thinks about those. I could easily use the Krenshar Mask and Lamia Belt for +4 to Hide, Move Silently, Jump, and Bluff.


While I agree with the tail and claws, the fact the original rogue has spring attack, it seems that this guy wanted some kind of mobile fighter that could dart through the battlefield and attack, while still being sneaky.

He will still have spring attack with the Shadowlord, and he already likes the idea of Shadow Hand Swordsage (we talked about this a bit). I just thought the Shadowlord would be a nice addition since it has a very similar feel.

Any WotC source plus Dragon Magazine is alright, but as I said, the DM is trusting me to be reasonable.

Our current party consists of:
- Cleric/Crusader/Bone Knight
- Warblade/Dervish
- Hellfire Glaivelock/Arcane Trickster (GitP helped me make this character too, our other newest player likes it a lot)
- Blaster Sorcerer/Abj Champ (considering Spellsword)
- The Rogue to be modified.

I think we're roughly in the tier 2-3 range.

Greenish
2011-01-24, 03:36 PM
Shadowlord's Shadow Pounce is fun, but the qualifications were annoying, I seem to recall.

Say, grabbing pounce from somewhere and taking Battle Jump would also allow full attacks after teleporting (or jumping really high, swordsage can deliver), you'd just have to teleport over the enemy. Can't have flight speed though. Might be tad strong with Craven, but then again the build would require you to not get flight or fear immunity to get the full benefit, and those are quite large weaknesses.

[Edit]: HiPS might also be appreciated. How about Ninja Spy? The climb bonus + Battle Jump opens a thematic combo, and the other abilities are quite cool.

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 03:47 PM
Shadowlord's Shadow Pounce is fun, but the qualifications were annoying, I seem to recall.

Say, grabbing pounce from somewhere and taking Battle Jump would also allow full attacks after teleporting (or jumping really high, swordsage can deliver), you'd just have to teleport over the enemy. Can't have flight speed though. Might be tad strong with Craven, but then again the build would require you to not get flight or fear immunity to get the full benefit, and those are quite large weaknesses.

[Edit]: HiPS might also be appreciated. How about Ninja Spy? The climb bonus + Battle Jump opens a thematic combo, and the other abilities are quite cool.

What exactly is Ninja Spy? Also, I was going to take the Arcane Stunt: Spiderclimb for Swashbuckler.

EDIT: Ok, would this scenario work: Use Blink Shirt to Teleport 10 feet above an enemy while you have the Child of Shadows stance active. Use the concealment granted to HiPS and Sneak Attack while Battle Jumping?

Greenish
2011-01-24, 03:54 PM
What exactly is Ninja Spy? Also, I was going to take the Arcane Stunt: Spiderclimb for Swashbuckler.A nifty, if not hugely powerful, PrC from OA. Gets you Poison Use, some SA, bunch of exotic weapon proficiencies, HiPS, Slow Fall, Water Walk, Slippery Mind, Thousand Faces, the ability to take 10 on Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble (and +10/+20 bonus to them) and other miscellaneous stuff over 10 levels.

[Edit]: Child of Shadows concealment doesn't allow for hiding, but if you have a decent version of HiPS, you don't need concealment.

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 04:00 PM
That's a really cool class. He can take Ninja-To proficiency to get that nice 19-29 crit range. It might be a better choice than Shadowlord, simply because it's not a prereq nightmare.

EDIT: It looks like the Ninja Spy has the decent form of HiPS, so that could work. Additionally, the skill bonus soulmelds would work excelently with this class. Now, can I still teleport and attack using Battle Jump without Shadow Pounce?

I always forget the Child of Shadows doesn't let you hide.

dextercorvia
2011-01-24, 04:06 PM
Since all Fighter is adding is the feats for Spring Attack, how about

Rogue3/Swashbuckler3/Swordsage2/Swashbuckler+12

Feats:

H:TWF
1:Wild Cohort
3:Craven
6:Daring Outlaw (He didn't qualify for it at 3, nor does he qualify for ITWF yet at 6)
9:Shadow Blade
12: ITWF
15: GTWF
18: ???

He can get ITWF from Gloves of the Balanced Hand, until he needs it as a prerequ for GTWF. The Cohort provides a Flanking buddy, which pairs nicely with Penetrating Strike.

I like the Totemist Rogue, but it is a very different feel.

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 04:13 PM
Since all Fighter is adding is the feats for Spring Attack, how about

Rogue3/Swashbuckler3/Swordsage2/Swashbuckler+12

Feats:

H:TWF
1:Wild Cohort
3:Craven
6:Daring Outlaw (He didn't qualify for it at 3, nor does he qualify for ITWF yet at 6)
9:Shadow Blade
12: ITWF
15: GTWF
18: ???

He can get ITWF from Gloves of the Balanced Hand, until he needs it as a prerequ for GTWF. The Cohort provides a Flanking buddy, which pairs nicely with Penetrating Strike.

I like the Totemist Rogue, but it is a very different feel.

I was thinking that we would downplay the barbaric nature of the totemist and think of it as similar to the Swordsage's non-magic magic. Also, seeing as we have 2 TWF players, I have convinced my DM to allow TWF to include ITWF and GTWF when their BAB would allow for the iteratives, rather than being a feat tax. Wild Cohot is nice, but the Dervish and him are already flanking buddies since they're the most mobile. You're right about Daring Outlaw, I misremembered the feat when I suggested it to him.

Thespianus
2011-01-24, 04:16 PM
Grabbing a 1 level dip in Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy-variant, maybe) to grab Pounce would help ALOT. Skip the Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack tree, drop Weapon Focus, grab Quick Draw, grab the Skill Tricks that uses Quick Draw and Sleight of Hand to get sneak attacks in the rounds you draw your hidden weapons. Grab some Swordsage levels as suggested, and.. well.. have fun? :)

Greenish
2011-01-24, 04:17 PM
That's a really cool class. He can take Ninja-To proficiency to get that nice 19-29 crit range. It might be a better choice than Shadowlord, simply because it's not a prereq nightmare.Needs DM ruling on the Slow Fall vs. Battle Jump interaction (the slow fall is the same type as monk's, only works next to a wall, and says you can slow you fall, not that it's automatically slowed).

So, putting it together, at least 1 level in barbarian for pounce, 3+ level in rogue (for half SA vs immune), a level or two in swordsage, maybe some totemist (on the other hand, maybe not).

Let's see… rogue1/barbarian*1/rogue+2/fighter**2/swordsage1/ninja spy4 is level 11, BAB 9, SA mere 3d6+11, Dex to damage, Dex to damage again vs. flat-footed, HiPS, pounce & assorted goodies. For teleportation the fighter levels could be replaced with totemist.

Next level (or the one after that) would be another one of swordsage for a stance (say, Assassin's Stance) and another maneuver.

*Spirit Lion Totem
** Hit and Run Tactics

[Edit]: Feats for the build above: Able Learner, Battle Jump, Weapon Finesse, Dodge, TWF, (free fighter feat), Shadow Blade, in order.

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 04:26 PM
Needs DM ruling on the Slow Fall vs. Battle Jump interaction (the slow fall is the same type as monk's, only works next to a wall, and says you can slow you fall, not that it's automatically slowed).

So, putting it together, at least 1 level in barbarian for pounce, 3+ level in rogue (for half SA vs immune), a level or two in swordsage, maybe some totemist (on the other hand, maybe not).

Let's see… rogue1/barbarian*1/rogue+2/fighter**2/swordsage1/ninja spy4 is level 11, BAB 9, SA mere 3d6+11, Dex to damage, Dex to damage again vs. flat-footed, HiPS, pounce & assorted goodies. For teleportation the fighter levels could be replaced with totemist.

Next level (or the one after that) would be another one of swordsage for a stance (say, Assassin's Stance) and another maneuver.

*Spirit Lion Totem
** Hit and Run Tactics

[Edit]: Feats for the build above: Able Learner, Battle Jump, Weapon Finesse, Dodge, TWF, (free fighter feat), Shadow Blade, in order.

This seems like exatly what he would want. The teleporting was simply for mobility increase, not a necessity. Where can I find Hit and Run Tactics?


To finish off all 20 levels I think something like: Swordsage 1/Ninja Spy 6/Rogue 2. His SA would be the same as if he continued Rogue/Swashbuckler from his current build. Thank you, I think this is what I'll recommend to him, sith just Swordsage/Ninja Spy for 12-20 if he doesn't want to change up everything.

Greenish
2011-01-24, 04:32 PM
This seems like exatly what he would want. The teleporting was simply for mobility increase, not a necessity. Where can I find Hit and Run Tactics?Drow of the Underdark, it's a fighter ACF that trades away heavy armour and tower shields for initiative boost and dex to damage vs. flat-footed.

Note though that the damage can get pretty high with a full attack with Craven bonus doubled and dex to damage (essentially) four times. Still, for enemies bigger than medium, jumping isn't going to trigger it for a while, and you have to hide. Oh, and the aforementioned no flight, no immunity to fear.

Just run it by your DM step by step, since it can provide pretty nifty burst damage when everything lines up.

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 04:33 PM
Just run it by your DM step by step, since it can provide pretty nifty burst damage when everything lines up.

I'll definately let the DM peek at it first. He should be able to match our Dervish for damage at this point. Thank you.

MeeposFire
2011-01-24, 04:34 PM
I always liked bullete boots for my totemist as they let you attack four times on a jump attack which is not bad on the move.

Greenish
2011-01-24, 04:41 PM
I'll definately let the DM peek at it first. He should be able to match our Dervish for damage at this point. Thank you.Oh, and he'll need to use Shadow Hand weapons, so daggers or short swords, unless the DM allows some of the exotic weapons count as such.

If he gets interested in poisons, Akalsaris has an excellent handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0).

[Edit]: Dropping Craven would reduce the damage output quite a bit, if that worries your DM, and would allow the poor character to finally partake in Heroes' Feast. :smalltongue:

Havelock
2011-01-24, 04:45 PM
Swashbuckler doesn't give much IMO. From a purely optimalization view:

Whisper gnome, dump Cha, STR at 10 (after adjustment) is fine. Dex, con, wis are prioritized, in that order. Debatably you could go with more STR than INT, depending on how you rank skill points.

Feats:
Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, TWF, Imp TWF, G TWF, Adaptive Style*, feat at LvL18 can be whatever.

*Assuming interpretation that you can refresh all manouvers as a standard action.

Penetrating Strike is a must have.
Stances, exclusively shadow hand ones.
Manouvers, good selections at lower levels, more obscure higher up:
1: sapphire nightmare blade, shadow blade technique, burning blade, moment of perfect mind, wolf fang strike, sudden leap.
2: cloak of deception, mountain hammer, action before thought
3: mind over body, soaring raptor strike

For weapons, try to get a pair of shadow hand organrippers.
Organripper appears in Sinister Spire, and is a +1 dagger that deals +1d6 sneak attack damage (it's slightly more situational iirc) for 1000GP extra, get the +1 discipline weapon property tied to shadow hand on them, which will trade +1 damage for +2 to hit (+1 ability that gives +3 when using shadow hand stance or manouvers=always).

You want to max out attacks per round and the bonus to hit, and try to set you up in flanking positions, or become invisible. Tiger Claw manouvers does the first, sudden leap let's you jump as a swift action so you can follow up with a full attack, wolf fang strike allows you to make two attacks with a standard action, further up you get dancing and angry mongoose. Island of blades makes flanking easy, cloak of deception makes you invisible for a round.

Obviously, take discipline focus from swordsage on shadow hand for a +1 to hit.

I'd generally be leaning towards 10-12 swordsage levels, perhaps rounding off rogue at 5, dipping warblade is a nice trick, getting ever awesome iron heart surge and allowing you to put some of the defensive things like mind over body in those readied slots. Also consider stopping rogue at 3 and continue with Assassin for more sneak attack. Strategically time martial artist levels so that you benefit from the fact that other levels improve your iniator level by 1/2.

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 04:46 PM
I always liked bullete boots for my totemist as they let you attack four times on a jump attack which is not bad on the move.

That's pretty cool, but I think I'll skip Totemist.


Oh, and he'll need to use Shadow Hand weapons, so daggers or short swords, unless the DM allows some of the exotic weapons count as such.

If he gets interested in poisons, Akalsaris has an excellent handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0).

We actually had a discussion about him wanting to use poisons but having a chance to poison himself. This is extremely relevant.

EDIT: I don't suppose that opponents are flat-footed when you drop onto them, are they? Or, is there a way to make this so?

Greenish
2011-01-24, 04:50 PM
We actually had a discussion about him wanting to use poisons but having a chance to poison himself. This is extremely relevant.Ninja Spy, as mentioned, gets Poison Use (= no change to poison yourself) at first level. :smallcool:


EDIT: I don't suppose that opponents are flat-footed when you drop onto them, are they? Or, is there a way to make this so?Win initiative, force balance checks, and a few other methods allow flat-footing enemies. Blurstrike (+2, MIC) gets it as a weapon property, for limited use.


[Edit]: Anyone remember what Leap of the Clouds was changed to in the 3.5 update? I've assumed it to become Leap of the Heavens (PHBII), but I just realized (yes, I'm slow) that OA update probably predates PHBII.

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 04:54 PM
Ninja Spy, as mentioned, gets Poison Use (= no change to poison yourself) at first level. :smallcool:
Win initiative, force balance checks, and a few other methods allow flat-footing enemies. Blurstrike (+2, MIC) gets it as a weapon property, for limited use.

Alright, the normal methods of making an opponent flatfooted should work. How does being above someone count for flanking, though?

Havelock
2011-01-24, 04:55 PM
Alright, the normal methods of making an opponent flatfooted should work. How does being above someone count for flanking, though?

island of blades. You just need to have you and an ally adjacent, being above is just fine, gives you bonus for higher ground, too.

Greenish
2011-01-24, 04:55 PM
Alright, the normal methods of making an opponent flatfooted should work. How does being above someone count for flanking, though?No idea, but hiding should allow SA.

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 05:01 PM
island of blades. You just need to have you and an ally adjacent, being above is just fine, gives you bonus for higher ground, too.


No idea, but hiding should allow SA.

Alright, I think this is all I needed. I'm off to put the finishing touches on this guy. I appreciate the quick and helpful responses.

Greenish
2011-01-24, 05:05 PM
Alright, I think this is all I needed. I'm off to put the finishing touches on this guy. I appreciate the quick and helpful responses.You'll want to check with your DM on what sort of action Battle Jump is, since technically you can activate it with a move action (jump), and get full attack at double damage twice a round.

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 05:42 PM
ToB advice

I was just looking back at the thread and I conpletely missed this post. This is roughly what I was thinking of for the SS levels, Shadowhand and Tiger Claw with Moment of Perfect Mind to boost his abysmal Will save. Thanks.


You'll want to check with your DM on what sort of action Battle Jump is, since technically you can activate it with a move action (jump), and get full attack at double damage twice a round.

Good Point, and it could be 3 full attacks with sudden leap.

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 08:03 PM
I have come up with a few more questions upon constructing the character.

- What are people's opinions on going for the Unarmed Swordsage variant for IUS, in order to be able to take Snap Kick for an extra attack w/o AoOs?

- How exactly do the Fukimi-bari work with SA? Does he just walk around with 3 in his mouth all day and get 3 SAs when he uses them on an elegible opponent? What type of action is it to reload your darts?

- When using a Kusari-Gama (which, according to DMG, can count as a spiked chain) when and what type of action is it to switch between double weapon and reach weapon?

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 09:34 PM
Ok, one last thing (I hope):

How are you supposed to use Battle Jump without teleportation or higher ground?

The DC to jump 5 feet above a medium creature(10' total) is 40, and you need at least 35 movement to do it in one round (unless you want a DC 80 check). 20 feet of running, 10 feet up, 5 feet down.

sonofzeal
2011-01-24, 09:38 PM
Ok, one last thing (I hope):

How are you supposed to use Battle Jump without teleportation or higher ground? The DC to jump 5 feet above a medium creature(10' total) is 40.
Martial Study: Leaping Dragon Stance. Not a +10 bonus on jump checks, but +10 FEET on any jump. That's an autosucceed for Battle Jump against a Medium creature.

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 09:40 PM
Martial Study: Leaping Dragon Stance. Not a +10 bonus on jump checks, but +10 FEET on any jump. That's an autosucceed for Battle Jump against a Medium creature.

Well, that would make invalidate Shadowblade, but I think it's worth it. Thanks.

dextercorvia
2011-01-24, 09:53 PM
Ok, one last thing (I hope):

How are you supposed to use Battle Jump without teleportation or higher ground?

The DC to jump 5 feet above a medium creature(10' total) is 40, and you need at least 35 movement to do it in one round (unless you want a DC 80 check). 20 feet of running, 10 feet up, 5 feet down.

A Human with the Quick Trait, Fast Movement from Barbarian or Wildshape Ranger, Celerity Domain Ability (through planar touchstone if necessary) gives a base speed of 60' which equates to a +12 to the jump check. Shape Soulmeld: Landshark boots (among others) give bonuses to Jump Checks.

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 09:58 PM
A Human with the Quick Trait, Fast Movement from Barbarian or Wildshape Ranger, Celerity Domain Ability (through planar touchstone if necessary) gives a base speed of 60' which equates to a +12 to the jump check. Shape Soulmeld: Landshark boots (among others) give bonuses to Jump Checks.

That's a respectable speed, however the Barbarian's Fast Movement would be replaced by Pounce, or that makes the Battle Jump useless. The rest helps.

dextercorvia
2011-01-24, 10:04 PM
That's a respectable speed, however the Barbarian's Fast Movement would be replaced by Pounce, or that makes the Battle Jump useless. The rest helps.

You can get it from Wildshape Ranger. You can get more from Fist of the Forest...I can't remember how much off the top of my head.

Elric VIII
2011-01-24, 10:12 PM
You can get it from Wildshape Ranger. You can get more from Fist of the Forest...I can't remember how much off the top of my head.

Just 10ft each. I'm not sure if I can fit Fist of the Forest in, either mechanically or flavor-wise, but ranger should work.

dextercorvia
2011-01-24, 11:16 PM
A one level totemist dip can net you +8 - +10 to jump checks fairly easily. Landshark Boots and Krenshar Mask are each +4 +2/ess to Jump Checks (competence). Manticore Belt and Pegasus Cloak are +2 enhancements to Jump Checks.

Dragonborn with the Wings Aspect get +10 (racial) to jump checks.

The Horse Totem Barbarian gets the Run feat at second level, and is compatible with the Spirit Lion Totem.

Leaping Dragon Stance was already mentioned, but it also lets you treat all jumps as running jumps, which may fit with Leap of the Heavens for an additional +5.

Elric VIII
2011-01-25, 01:29 AM
Alright, here's my final build:
He's basically Samurai Jack, traning in various styles of fighting to become a master.


1 Rogue 1: Craven, TWF, Quick Trait
2 Barbarian 1: Spirit Lion Totem
3 Rogue 2: Dodge
4 Rogue 3: Penetrating Strike
5 Swordsage 1: Unarmed Swordsage
6 Swashbuckler 1: Martial Stance: Leaping Dragon, Arcane Stunt (Jump)
7 Fighter 1: Sneak Attack Variant, Hit and Run ACF
8 Ninja Spy 1: EWP (Kusari-gama)
9 Ninja Spy 2: Desert Wind Dodge (replace Dodge for Battle Jump)
10 Ninja Spy 3: EWP (Fukimi-Bari)
11 Ninja Spy 4: -
12 Ninja Spy 5: Snap Kick
13 Ninja Spy 6: EWP (blowgun)
14 Ninja Spy 7: -
15 Ninja Spy 8: Extra Readied Maneuver
16 Rogue 4: -
17 Rogue 5: -
18 Rogue 6: Martial Study (Danging Mongoose)
19 Rogue 7:
20: Swordsage 2: (Raging Mongoose)


I have some more questions:
- Can a Warblade recover maneuvers on a charge attack?

- Would it be better to switch to feat-based fighter to switch out Snap Kick, Extra Readied Maneuver, and the level of Swashbuckler for Shock Trooper and its prereqs?

Greenish
2011-01-25, 10:41 AM
Well, that would make invalidate Shadowblade, but I think it's worth it.Leap of the Heavens, a PHBII feat, also allows standing jumps without doubling the DC. No bonus to the check for standing jumps though. Ninja Spy might even have that as a class feature, I haven't seen how they updated the Leap of the Clouds to 3.5 (since the 3.0 version doesn't do anything due revised rules).

Falling is a free action that doesn't eat your movement.

Now, a 11th level rogue should be able to afford Boots of Striding and Springing combined with Boots of Agile Leaping (MIC). So your check result is 14 (ranks) + 4 (speed) + 5 (boots) +6 (or more, dex) + 10 (ninja spy class feature) + 10 (take 10) = 49 before seriously investing in it.


Alright, here's my final build:
He's basically Samurai Jack, traning in various styles of fighting to become a master.


1 Rogue 1: Craven, TWF, Quick Trait
2 Barbarian 1: Spirit Lion Totem
3 Rogue 2: Dodge
4 Rogue 3: Penetrating Strike
5 Swordsage 1: Unarmed Swordsage
6 Swashbuckler 1: Martial Stance: Leaping Dragon, Arcane Stunt (Jump)
7 Fighter 1: Sneak Attack Variant, Hit and Run ACF
8 Ninja Spy 1: EWP (Kusari-gama)
9 Ninja Spy 2: Desert Wind Dodge (replace Dodge for Battle Jump)
10 Ninja Spy 3: EWP (Fukimi-Bari)
11 Ninja Spy 4: -
12 Ninja Spy 5: Snap Kick
13 Ninja Spy 6: EWP (blowgun)
14 Ninja Spy 7: -
15 Ninja Spy 8: Extra Readied Maneuver
16 Rogue 4: -
17 Rogue 5: -
18 Rogue 6: Martial Study (Danging Mongoose)
19 Rogue 7:
20: Swordsage 2: (Raging Mongoose)
Battle Jump is 1st level only, so you'll have to swap them around. The Swashbuckler level seems extraneous, and you could delay taking Swordsage to get higher level maneuvers. : No, you wouldn't want to do that, you'll want HiPS.



I have some more questions:
- Can a Warblade recover maneuvers on a charge attack?

- Would it be better to switch to feat-based fighter to switch out Snap Kick, Extra Readied Maneuver, and the level of Swashbuckler for Shock Trooper and its prereqs?-Yes, a swift action and an attack are all that's required.

-I used feat fighter, largely to fit in Able Learner because I'm too lazy to go calculating skills otherwise. I wouldn't go for shock trooper, since to benefit from it, you need to be either bull rushing or power attacking, and the build will do neither (all shadow hand weapons except spiked chain are light). Snap Kick would be pretty nifty.

Elric VIII
2011-01-25, 11:20 AM
Leap of the Heavens, a PHBII feat, also allows standing jumps without doubling the DC. No bonus to the check for standing jumps though. Ninja Spy might even have that as a class feature, I haven't seen how they updated the Leap of the Clouds to 3.5 (since the 3.0 version doesn't do anything due revised rules).

-I used feat fighter, largely to fit in Able Learner because I'm too lazy to go calculating skills otherwise. I wouldn't go for shock trooper, since to benefit from it, you need to be either bull rushing or power attacking, and the build will do neither (all shadow hand weapons except spiked chain are light). Snap Kick would be pretty nifty.

- I think I'm looking at the old version of Ninja Spy, because I'm looking at an actual book. Would I find the updated version in the WotC errata?

- I was thinking that Ninja Spy gets EWP (Kusari-Gama) which says it counts as a spiked chain in DMG. I would use the OA one that can be reach or double, rather than the 1H reach weapon version.

- I thought Kusari-Gama, Power Attack, Battle Jump, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper gives me x3 PA bonus and x2 total damage. Does this end up being (weapon + 1.5*Str)*2 + (PA bonus)*4?

Greenish
2011-01-25, 11:36 AM
- I was thinking that Ninja Spy gets EWP (Kusari-Gama) which says it counts as a spiked chain in DMG. I would use the OA one that can be reach or double, rather than the 1H reach weapon version.DMG just says that it gets tripping, disarm bonus and finessability like a spiked chain.

[Edit]: With OA Kusari-Gama and those standard charger feats, he'd never want to TWF. Besides, he hardly needs that kind of damage to keep up.

Elric VIII
2011-01-25, 04:58 PM
DMG just says that it gets tripping, disarm bonus and finessability like a spiked chain.

[Edit]: With OA Kusari-Gama and those standard charger feats, he'd never want to TWF. Besides, he hardly needs that kind of damage to keep up.

Yeah, I tend to agree. I juast wanted to explore the option.

I do like the flavor of Snap Kick better. This way he can rely on his SA more. Plus, personally, I like the flavor it's acquiring with regards to being a weapons master. I think that I'm going to focus mostly on Tiger Claw, to make this character rely solely on what may be described as physical prowess, ratehr than Shadow Hand's invisibility/teleporting. Sudden Leap + Battle Jump is still very good.

Although, with regards to the Battle Jump's damage multiplication, does it function like a critical hit (double base damage/Str bonus/Craven, but not SA)?

dextercorvia
2011-01-25, 04:59 PM
To my knowledge, SA never gets multiplied. I'm fairly certain that the RC makes that explicit, but I'm AFB.

Elric VIII
2011-01-25, 05:36 PM
To my knowledge, SA never gets multiplied. I'm fairly certain that the RC makes that explicit, but I'm AFB.

I'm sorry, RC? I am not sure what that is (although I probobly should).

So, as a finishing touch I'm looking into Skill Tricks. Some of them are quite good, and flavorful, for this character. I just would like to know,can I find any in books other than Complete Scoundrel?

dextercorvia
2011-01-25, 05:37 PM
Rules Compendium

Greenish
2011-01-25, 05:39 PM
Although, with regards to the Battle Jump's damage multiplication, does it function like a critical hit (double base damage/Str bonus/Craven, but not SA)?Pretty much, yeah. Static modifiers (almost) always get multiplied, while +XdY doesn't.

RC stands for Rules Compendium.

Thespianus
2011-01-26, 08:21 AM
So, as a finishing touch I'm looking into Skill Tricks. Some of them are quite good, and flavorful, for this character. I just would like to know,can I find any in books other than Complete Scoundrel?

No, I think they are completely limited to Complete Scoundrel, unless there were more Skill Tricks published in Dragon Magazine. I haven't seen anything like that mentioned anywhere though

JaronK
2011-01-26, 12:41 PM
It seems to me like this guy wants a mobile int based stealth warrior type and wants to bypass sneak attack immunity, so why not Factotum 8/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Warblade 1? Use Quickrazors for Iaijutsu Focus, thus letting you "sneak attack" anything, increase the damage with Assassin's Stance when that will work, and use maneuvers to be more mobile (plus getting extra standard actions will be great with maneuvers). Just keep adding more Warblade after this. Plus then you can take the +10' to jump stance and use Battle Jump to your heart's content.

JaronK

Thespianus
2011-01-26, 03:39 PM
Plus then you can take the +10' to jump stance and use Battle Jump to your heart's content.

How do you use Battle Jump unless you are jumping down on an opponent?

It doesn't seem like the feat would allow you to stand on the ground, level with the opponent, jump into the air and then fall back down again, so how do you use it "to your heart's content"? :smallsmile:

(I'm reading the Battle Jump feat from Unapproachable East, by the way. Maybe there's a new version?)

Greenish
2011-01-26, 04:13 PM
How do you use Battle Jump unless you are jumping down on an opponent?

It doesn't seem like the feat would allow you to stand on the ground, level with the opponent, jump into the air and then fall back down again, so how do you use it "to your heart's content"?Why wouldn't it? You just have to jump high enough.

Elric VIII
2011-01-26, 04:26 PM
It seems to me like this guy wants a mobile int based stealth warrior type and wants to bypass sneak attack immunity, so why not Factotum 8/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Warblade 1? Use Quickrazors for Iaijutsu Focus, thus letting you "sneak attack" anything, increase the damage with Assassin's Stance when that will work, and use maneuvers to be more mobile (plus getting extra standard actions will be great with maneuvers). Just keep adding more Warblade after this. Plus then you can take the +10' to jump stance and use Battle Jump to your heart's content.

JaronK

I did, in fact, consider this. The problem was that I have never played a factotum (although I keep meaning to), nor has anyone else in our group. I am not confident in my abilities to help him play the class well.


How do you use Battle Jump unless you are jumping down on an opponent?

It doesn't seem like the feat would allow you to stand on the ground, level with the opponent, jump into the air and then fall back down again, so how do you use it "to your heart's content"? :smallsmile:

(I'm reading the Battle Jump feat from Unapproachable East, by the way. Maybe there's a new version?)

I figured it would be running up to an opponent then jumping, falling as a free action.

Jump up, then slash down.

Thespianus
2011-01-27, 03:57 AM
Why wouldn't it? You just have to jump high enough.
Because the feat talks about "jumping down" (and explicitly mentions that you can't use the feat while, for example, flying)

As a DM I would allow it, because melee characters need cool things and the Battle Jump image is *cool*.

However, if a DM would argue that you can't launch yourself downwards forcefully when jumping from the same height as the target, I would see his point.

Greenish
2011-01-27, 02:48 PM
Because the feat talks about "jumping down"The feat says that "[y]ou can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent". You don't have to jump down, you just have to drop from 5' above the enemy. How you got there is your own business.

(and explicitly mentions that you can't use the feat while, for example, flying)It says that you "have to hurl yourself down on your foe", which is why flying or slow fall would negate it. However, if you jump up, you're going to come crashing down, and there's nothing you can do to it, so you can use the feat.

Elric VIII
2011-01-27, 03:00 PM
At some point in an arc, your upward acceleration and downward acceleration will exactly cancel. After that you begin to fall.

Standing on something then dropping down is just starting at the point at which the two accelerations cancel (with the supporting surface acting as the upward force).

Also, is it possible to have fly spell on you, hover 20 feet above your opponent, then dismiss the fly spell in order to fall and use battle jump?

Curmudgeon
2011-01-27, 07:33 PM
Also, is it possible to have fly spell on you, hover 20 feet above your opponent, then dismiss the fly spell in order to fall and use battle jump?
No.
If the Duration line ends with "(D)," you can dismiss the spell at will. You must be within range of the spell’s effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell’s verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture. Dismissing a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You wouldn't have the full-round action needed, so you couldn't execute a charge to Battle Jump.

Elric VIII
2011-01-28, 12:14 AM
No. You wouldn't have the full-round action needed, so you couldn't execute a charge to Battle Jump.

Oh, I thought just falling on them allowed you to consider it a charge. Does this mean that you can't jump on someone, activate Battle Jump, then use swift action Sudden Leap to do it again?

Curmudgeon
2011-01-28, 12:28 AM
Oh, I thought just falling on them allowed you to consider it a charge.
Yes, it does. That doesn't change any of the other charge requirements, though.
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Charging is still a full-round action. You can't charge if you don't have line of sight to your target. You must move in a straight line (so you fail to charge if you change direction due to wind). You fail to charge if there are obstacles between you and your target (flying creatures, for example). You also fail to charge if you've already taken a 5' step in the round.

You don't get free actions from Battle Jump ─ just a new, useful option.

MeeposFire
2011-01-28, 12:31 AM
No. You wouldn't have the full-round action needed, so you couldn't execute a charge to Battle Jump.

To be honest battle jump does not list an action type to be used. In fact by the nature of jumping or dropping in general you would normally have to use at least a move action to use battle jump in a normal situation which would not allow a charge in the first place (charging requires a full round action unless you are slowed). Since this is the case by a reading of the feat you would have to say that battle jump has no particular action type which while sounding stupid appears to be correct.

Thespianus
2011-01-28, 01:46 AM
The feat says that "[y]ou can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent". You don't have to jump down, you just have to drop from 5' above the enemy. How you got there is your own business.
Fair enough. It might me cool, then, and it makes it a less situational feat :)

Greenish
2011-01-28, 03:15 AM
You wouldn't have the full-round action needed, so you couldn't execute a charge to Battle Jump.I would contest that reading. The first line of Battle Jump reads "[y]ou can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent", which I read as removing the need for 10' of movement or full round action.

Elric VIII
2011-01-28, 12:17 PM
To be honest battle jump does not list an action type to be used. In fact by the nature of jumping or dropping in general you would normally have to use at least a move action to use battle jump in a normal situation which would not allow a charge in the first place (charging requires a full round action unless you are slowed). Since this is the case by a reading of the feat you would have to say that battle jump has no particular action type which while sounding stupid appears to be correct.


I would contest that reading. The first line of Battle Jump reads "[y]ou can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent", which I read as removing the need for 10' of movement or full round action.

This was my interpretation as well, however that get's into the territory of having 2 move action jumps to give 2 full attacks. While it seems reasonable to allow dismissing a spell (or more likely having an ally dismiss his spell that was on you) jumping wice for 2 attacks might be over the top. Would jumping while threatened count as AoO provoking movement?

EDIT: Grammar.

Keld Denar
2011-01-28, 12:20 PM
Yes. Moving while doing anything that isn't tumbling is AoO provoking. If you pass through someone's threatened space while jumping over them, you'd provoke an AoO just the same as if you had tango'd around them.

MeeposFire
2011-01-28, 03:48 PM
This was my interpretation as well, however that get's into the territory of having 2 move action jumps to give 2 full attacks. While it seems reasonable to allow dismissing a spell (or more likely having an ally dismiss his spell that was on you) jumping wice for 2 attacks might be over the top. Would jumping while threatened count as AoO provoking movement?

EDIT: Grammar.

Yea that is the problem with the RAW. Now was a fullround action RAI? I cannot say as I am sure they did not think about multiple full action attacks in a round when they wrote the feat. In addition I do not think they thought the feat through very well as making it a full round action makes it very difficult to ever use the feat and would certainly require a rewrite of the feat.

dextercorvia
2011-01-28, 03:51 PM
I think that RAI is that you can combine the jump with the attack as a FRA like a charge, even though the movement is different than in a standard charge.

Elric VIII
2011-01-29, 01:55 AM
I think the best thing to do in this case would be to not recommend the Sudden Leap maneuver and to simply give it the Dim Door clause that prevents additional actions after its use.

MeeposFire
2011-01-29, 01:59 AM
I think that RAI is that you can combine the jump with the attack as a FRA like a charge, even though the movement is different than in a standard charge.

The most common way of getting the attack without actually having a huge jump check is to drop from above (a ledge or the like). What then? I use a move action to jump and then bam feat is in progress. I can rule that it takes a standard action but that would not be spelled out and so is probably a houserule. Not that it is a bad houserule mind you but still it shows the problems they had in writing mechanics.

Elric VIII
2011-01-29, 02:03 AM
The most common way of getting the attack without actually having a huge jump check is to drop from above (a ledge or the like). What then? I use a move action to jump and then bam feat is in progress. I can rule that it takes a standard action but that would not be spelled out and so is probably a houserule. Not that it is a bad houserule mind you but still it shows the problems they had in writing mechanics.

I know what you mean. I bet this would be a great feat, as written, on the Monk that isn't proficient with unarmed strikes.:smallbiggrin:

MeeposFire
2011-01-29, 02:19 AM
I know what you mean. I bet this would be a great feat, as written, on the Monk that isn't proficient with unarmed strikes.:smallbiggrin:

I was going to argue that but I looked and humanoids are possibly the only type in the game that is not automatically proficient with their own natural weapons by RAW. A giant on the other hand is proficient with its own natural weapons and so could be argued whether they are proficient with unarmed strikes (which are natural weapons in that they are not manufactured and follow rules based on that but they are treated like manufactured weapons in other way such as on full attacks and it is not clear where proficiency applies). So as far as I can tell humanoid monks are not proficient despite my thoughts of finding the loophole.

Elric VIII
2011-01-29, 02:28 AM
I was going to argue that but I looked and humanoids are possibly the only type in the game that is not automatically proficient with their own natural weapons by RAW. A giant on the other hand is proficient with its own natural weapons and so could be argued whether they are proficient with unarmed strikes (which are natural weapons in that they are not manufactured and follow rules based on that but they are treated like manufactured weapons in other way such as on full attacks and it is not clear where proficiency applies). So as far as I can tell humanoid monks are not proficient despite my thoughts of finding the loophole.

That's actually interesting. It's a large oversight, rather than just a Monk typo.

MeeposFire
2011-01-29, 02:31 AM
That's actually interesting. It's a large oversight, rather than just a Monk typo.

It could be easily avoided if they just have made improved unarmed strike also count as proficiency with unarmed strike among its other benefits. It would have made perfect sense.

Elric VIII
2011-01-29, 02:34 AM
It could be easily avoided if they just have made improved unarmed strike also count as proficiency with unarmed strike among its other benefits. It would have made perfect sense.

Agreed.

I at least hope that it is houseruled that way for Monks. Although it might be fun to watch the player squirm.

MeeposFire
2011-01-29, 03:07 AM
Agreed.

I at least hope that it is houseruled that way for Monks. Although it might be fun to watch the player squirm.

Just for a moment then give it to him one way or the other.:smallcool: