Charisma and Spellcasting

[The Rugi]

Well, Charisma and special abilities in general, really. My friend asked me, "How does charisma affect your spells? What do you do, flirt with your spells before casting them?" and I really couldn't figure out a way to explain it. I said "force of personality," but I can't figure out how to explain what that really means either. You use your assertiveness to turn undead? You use your charm to smite evil? For someone who never played DnD before, it doesn't really work as an explanation. Can anyone help?

[linebackeru]

I think of it Indiana Jones-style: you don't know what you're doing, but you bluff your way into things working. Also explains the Use Magic Device skill.

[Scarlet-Devil]

I can't really come up with a good explanation at the moment, but my fellow players and I used to joke about this all the time. In one of my first games way back when, the guy playing the sorcerer would run his hands through his hair and make effeminate gestures every time he cast a spell; bloody hilarious :smallwink:.

Edit: My OCD is pissed that I used the word "hands" twice so close together in one sentence...

Edit: Just going to change that now :smallwink:.

[CapnCJ]

You just sort of persuade the magic to happen, and it does :smallsmile:

[SurlySeraph]

It's about how effectively you can express and impose your will. For arcane magic, it's telling the laws to sit down and shut up because you say so, and you're charismatic enough that they'll do it. For divine magic, it's how well you can channel and express your god's unerring awesomeness in the world.

[FMArthur]

I always assumed that it meant willpower when it said "force of personality" and it was just being arbitrary for the sake of game balance by saying that defensive Will was a completely different and separate thing.

[Chess435]

*runs hands through hair*



*waits*



Darn it! I guess my Charisma score is lousy. :smallannoyed:

[Re'ozul]

From the srd.

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

You cast by the power of awesome.
Basically you do not form the powers via scientific principles like a wizard, who shapes magic into spells by virtue of its own laws. Instead you basically bully and coerce magic to do what you want on the fly by sheer force of personality.

[Warlawk]

Frankly, I don't like it. I think all the explanations I've ever heard were just straight weak. So I stopped worry about it and just let it be. From what I've seen there just aren't good explanations so I'm not gonna sweat it.

Most of the descriptions seem to say that Cha based spellcasters have the power in their blood and use their "force of personality" to cast spells. What that sounds to me is like they wanted to say they use their "force of will" to cast spells, which actually kind of makes sense. Then the designers realized that Force of Will would be covered by Wisdom, not Cha and the whole thing just kinda got handwaved.

[elpollo]

The universe says that you can't generate fire at will. The universe says you can't make someone turn to jello. You convince the universe that it's wrong.

[Chess435]

:smallwink:Because you are made of win.

[AslanCross]

You flirt with the universe. It says "Sure, sweetheart. :smallwink:"

[Scarlet-Devil]

*runs hands through hair*



*waits*



Darn it! I guess my Charisma score is lousy. :smallannoyed:

Nonono! Only those born with the rare gift of draconic spunk can properly harness and bend the energies of the universe; sorcery is not for everybody, you see.

[Amnestic]

I refer you to the TVTropes page on being Hotblooded (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HotBlooded).

With the power of pure passion, reality itself becomes your whipping boy.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

You flirt with the universe. It says "Sure, sweetheart. :smallwink:"

thats how it works at the bar. +1

[mucat]

Think of your best math professor from college. Give the guy/gal a guitar, and plenty of time to learn to play it. The prof is probably a fast learner, and will likely get reasonably proficient with practice.

Now think of the person who reliably gives you the best advice of anyone you know. They get a guitar too, and I bet they have the perseverence and focus to get pretty good with it.

Now put them both on the stage with Jimi Hendrix. (Who, for purpose of this thought experiment, is not dead.) Listen to 'em for a little while.

Hendrix isn't more intelligent than the mathematician. He's not wiser than the guru. But damn, is he blowing them both off the stage.


The sorcerer makes magic like Hendrix plays that guitar. Part of what is meant by "force of personality" in this context, is that kind of pure, unstoppable talent.

[FMArthur]

AHA!


FORCE OF PERSONALITY
You have cultivated an unshakable belief in your self-worth. Your sense of self and purpose are so strong that they bolster your willpower.
Prerequisite: Cha 13.
Benefit: You add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Wisdom modifier) to Will saves against mind-affecting spells and abilities.

Thanks, Complete Adventurer. Your "force of personality" is your sense of self and purpose. I don't know if it should be more or less confusing that force of personality is what your Charisma represents and is simultaneously a feat you could take.

[Yuki Akuma]

Many, many, many creatures use Charisma to modify the saving DCs of their offensive magial abilities.

Therefore, Charisma measures how good you are with innate magic.

Easy.

[Ajadea]

I saw the different types of spellcasting like this:

Int-based casters learn the way magic works and how to hijack it for their own purposes. Wis-based casters are granted their spells, and use their instincts to guide the magic to accomplish their goals and the goals of whatever grants their powers. Cha-based casters have a natural 'magic sense' and, coupled with their own firm knowledge of exactly who and what they are (I'm thinking the awakening scene in The Wee Free Men) they use that to tell the universe to shut up, sit down, and obey their whims.

[Mando Knight]

With the power of pure passion, reality itself becomes your whipping boy.
Proven fact.

If you're hotblooded enough, you can even ignore time, space, and interdimensional whatevers and just punch things with a drill-armed supergalactic robot.

[Cespenar]

There are three ways of Cha-based casting:

You lay out your arguments against the universe's, and you both come to a compromise.
You fast-talk the universe and send it away confused.
Or you put your foot on the ground, look the universe in the eye, and say, "My way, or the highway."

[Agrippa]

Its simple, you're a cosmic con artist. You lie to and sweet talk the universe enough until it bends over backwards and does as say.

[NichG]

If we assume that a universe with magic has some underlying animism that is called upon to power magical effects:

Intelligence is using study, mastery of complex interacting concepts in order to achieve an effect. It is 'figuring things out'. You learn that a bit of bat guano evokes the elemental energy of fire. Why? Who knows, but its a piece of information you can use.

Wisdom is intuitive understanding, realizing the way of things by giving them personalities, stories, etc, and seeking the story that makes sense, thus creating a way for something to happen. You realize that a rock wants to find its mother, and so if you dangle it from a thread and spin it you will find your way back to its origin.

Charisma: Its your story. You are the most important being in all reality. The energies of the universe do what you say because thats how your story goes, and you cannot be wrong.

[Urpriest]

AHA!



Thanks, Complete Adventurer. Your "force of personality" is your sense of self and purpose. I don't know if it should be more or less confusing that force of personality is what your Charisma represents and is simultaneously a feat you could take.

This actually makes a lot of sense. Compare the definition of an object: objects, and only objects, have zero Wis and Cha. If you have zero Wis you cannot perceive your surroundings. If you have zero Cha then you can't distinguish yourself from the rest of the world. So Cha measures your sense of self, your conviction that you are who you are. Wisdom usually applies to Will saves because it represents mental health, common sense, and self control. Lowercase will on the other hand, as in Nietzche's will to power, is covered by Charisma. So Charisma based casters use their sense of self to shape the world, and Charisma based turning and smiting comes from the person's conviction in the truth of their ideals.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

You cast by the power of awesome.

This is basically the explanation I've always gone with.

Ok, not quite, but something like it. See, you're telling the laws of the universe to shut up and sit down. What does this take? The way I can see it, you're either doing it by formula, rote memorization, that sort of thing. You've figured out the trick to make the universe behave in a certain way. This would be Int based casting. Cha based casting, on the other hand? You take your Ego and enforce its order on the workings of the universe. Like Urpriest says, it has certain parallels to Nietzsche's Will to Power.

Then there are the Wis based divine casters. In their case you are channeling the will of another, which requires a certain affinity with that other, not in the sense of familiarity, but being spiritually "in tune" with that other. Hence, you may be highly devout, and yet mundane (as is the case with most believers in most cases), or less devout, but magical (as is the case with the Archivist, in some cases) - you need to have more than belief to pull it off.

These are my thoughts, at least.

[Ialdabaoth]

It's all about self-confidence, which is entirely a Charisma thing.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Magic isn't supposed to make sense. Besides that, the mental stats are so blurry you could say Charisma represents anything.

[Acero]

Why CHarisma? Because you need pizazz when casting spells that require Somatic components. :smallbiggrin:

Advanced Jazz hands= Maximized Fireball :smalltongue:

[Warlawk]

Why CHarisma? Because you need pizazz when casting spells that require Somatic components. :smallbiggrin:

Advanced Jazz hands= Maximized Fireball :smalltongue:

That is so wrong, yet so very right.

BE AGGRESSIVE!
B-E AGGRESSIVE!
B-E A-G-G-R-E-S-S-I-V-E!

/shakes pompoms

[ericgrau]

Wizards tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up. Sorcerers offer the laws of physics cookies and tell them to wait over here for a minute :smallbiggrin:.

[yldenfrei]

That is so wrong, yet so very right.

BE AGGRESSIVE!
B-E AGGRESSIVE!
B-E A-G-G-R-E-S-S-I-V-E!

/shakes pompoms

And I have assuredly damned my soul by singing to that cheer out loud IRL. :smallsigh:

I remember being told that the bard's arcane spells are powered by their passions, while sorcerer spells are powered by their bloodlines. In any case it is something that cannot be explained through mechanical (INT) means. I'd like to think of it INT spells as BS courses while CHA spells are BA courses.

It is also the reason why wizards hate sorcerers so. Because by the laws of magic, it shouldn't happen.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

It's very simple. Charisma is Plot PowerTM.

Diplomacy and Leadership? PCs' Charisma-based ability to order people around because they're important and the NPCs aren't.

Monster save DCs? Based on Charisma because the higher Charisma creatures are more plot-important and therefore more of an impediment to the PCs.

Paladins adding Cha to saves (and AC, through an ACF)? Literal Charisma-based plot armor.

Bardic music, marshal auras, and suchlike? Charisma-based plot significance (and thus survivability, effectiveness, etc.) rubbing off on others based on the character's own plot significance.

Use Magic Device? Important characters' Charisma-based ability to always inherit/"acquire" etc. the best stuff, MacGuffins especially.

Sorcerer casting? Charisma-based casting because the major protagonists and major antagonists always have the coolest abilities.

Makes perfect sense, doesn't it? :smallcool:

[Psyren]

...draconic spunk...

Ewww... :smallfrown:

[Heliomance]

This question is why I've essentially merged the wizard and sorcerer classes into one class which has sorcerer casting but based off Int.

However, the fey do still get to cast from Charisma. For them, magic isn't a matter of study, it's an intrinsic part of what they are. They are magic, and magic is them. They have an enormous presence in the fabric of magic, and can bend it just by virtue of being fey.

[Yuki Akuma]

Magic is an intrinsic part of what Sorcerers are, too.

[monkey3]

I think of Barney Stimpson (How I met your mother). He is low int and wis, but a high chr. I can imagine him in a world with magic using his chr to make the girls come to him.

[Crow]

However, the fey do still get to cast from Charisma. For them, magic isn't a matter of study, it's an intrinsic part of what they are. They are magic, and magic is them. They have an enormous presence in the fabric of magic, and can bend it just by virtue of being fey.

...and you just described how sorcerers use charisma.

[Psyren]

This question is why I've essentially merged the wizard and sorcerer classes into one class which has sorcerer casting but based off Int.

Way ahead of you (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) :smalltongue:

[Scarlet-Devil]

Ewww... :smallfrown:

*Cough*Cough* I believe we're thinking of different definitions :smallyuk::smallredface:.

[Psyren]

*Cough*Cough* I believe we're thinking of different definitions :smallyuk::smallredface:.

And yet they both fit the context :smallwink:

[randomhero00]

Personally I've always hated charisma for casting (except maybe enchantment) but the way I think of it as, is your force of will vs the universe. Those with wills strong enough, and have magic talent, can shape the universe at their will. Now this will is different from a will save, which is specific to your own head. In other words a player may have a strong will in bending the universe but be weak at defending against it.

Like being inside your own head on guard vs being out there, absent minded and willing things outside yourself (i.e. you'd have less attention to pay to your own will inside).

edit: and in DnD terms, bending the universe to your will is harder than bending someone else to your will. Hence the charisma. As its even easier to bend someone else, than the entire universal physics.

[Heliomance]

...and you just described how sorcerers use charisma.
Except... humans don't. The fey are, near enough, literally made of magic. Humans really aren't. Oh, sure, you can spout stuff about distant ancestors and suchlike, but they're still human. Maybe they've got a little extra in them, but it's really not much. A fraction of a fraction of a drop of actual magic in their veins. I might allow a half-fey to cast with charisma, but not much less than that. Fey have such a big magic presence because it forms their very beings. Humans are made of flesh and blood and bone.

[Scarlet-Devil]

And yet they both fit the context :smallwink:

All too true :smallamused:.

[Coidzor]

Except... humans don't. The fey are, near enough, literally made of magic. Humans really aren't. Oh, sure, you can spout stuff about distant ancestors and suchlike, but they're still human. Maybe they've got a little extra in them, but it's really not much. A fraction of a fraction of a drop of actual magic in their veins. I might allow a half-fey to cast with charisma, but not much less than that. Fey have such a big magic presence because it forms their very beings. Humans are made of flesh and blood and bone.

:smallconfused: Well, that doesn't really counteract the rules themselves and that humans are capable of having innate magical talent or spark within themselves as a feature of a respectable number of settings in fantasy. Not yours of course, but we could hardly really know that much about yours.

[Yuki Akuma]

Except... humans don't. The fey are, near enough, literally made of magic. Humans really aren't. Oh, sure, you can spout stuff about distant ancestors and suchlike, but they're still human. Maybe they've got a little extra in them, but it's really not much. A fraction of a fraction of a drop of actual magic in their veins. I might allow a half-fey to cast with charisma, but not much less than that. Fey have such a big magic presence because it forms their very beings. Humans are made of flesh and blood and bone.

Nothing about fey in vanilla 3.5 D&D hints that they're 'made' of magic. Magical? Sure, most of them. But some don't really have any magic to speak of.

And Sorcerers do have innate magical power. It's part of the class. That's why they use Charisma.

This may not be true in your setting but we're not talking about your setting.

[Telonius]

My take on it... Birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim, sorcerers gotta call down arcane fury. It's just who they are. When they're most truly being themselves, that's when the magic happens. The truly high-charisma people don't fake it or work at it. They're awesome because they're awesome. It's not that they're warping the universe to their will. The universe wants to warp itself to their will, they're just supplying the spark.

[Chess435]

All too true :smallamused:.

I take it I don't have that...............gift, if that's what you want to call it. :smallconfused:

[erikun]

Silly answer: Charisma is the James T. Kirk school of spellcasting. You just smile and talk haltingly until the universe bends to accomidate your ego. :smalltongue:

Serious answer: Charisma spellcasting involves using your strength of willpower, depth of determination, and forcefulness of your personality to allow any natural magical abilities you possess to take shape and affect the world. Mind you, this doesn't have anything to do with actual charisma, but 3.5e has hijacked the Charisma stat to represent those aspects of personality.

[DragonSinged]

The thing that kind of bothers me about the whole thing is that, unless you have taken a specific feat that says otherwise, that super-charismatic sorcerer, being all innately sly, sweet-talking the universe to make her bend to his whims because he's got the touch, he's got the powah? Being all, "Hey baby, want to immolate my enemies? Yeah? Of course you do." That guy with the magic in his blood?

That guy?

Yeah, he still needs to throw some bat poop at his enemies when he wants to cast Fireball.





How does that make sense?

[Chess435]

Eschew Materials = Win!

PF sorcerers get it for free. :smallsmile:

[Heliomance]

Nothing about fey in vanilla 3.5 D&D hints that they're 'made' of magic. Magical? Sure, most of them. But some don't really have any magic to speak of.

And Sorcerers do have innate magical power. It's part of the class. That's why they use Charisma.

This may not be true in your setting but we're not talking about your setting.

Yeah, okay I'm injecting some of my own setting's flavour into my argument. But sorcerers are still just everyday human beings (or elves, or gnomes, or...). There's some suggestion that they may have a tiny drop of fey or draconic blood in them. Or then again, they might not. The mortal races aren't inherently magical (except for gnomes, a little tiny bit). Charisma, as evidenced by its use in SLAs, is the stat used to determine your inherent, integral power. Fey have that power. Maybe dragons have it. Mortals don't.

[Crow]

Yeah, okay I'm injecting some of my own setting's flavour into my argument. But sorcerers are still just everyday human beings (or elves, or gnomes, or...). There's some suggestion that they may have a tiny drop of fey or draconic blood in them. Or then again, they might not. The mortal races aren't inherently magical (except for gnomes, a little tiny bit). Charisma, as evidenced by its use in SLAs, is the stat used to determine your inherent, integral power. Fey have that power. Maybe dragons have it. Mortals don't.

But sorcerers aren't everyday human beings. Otherwise they'd be commoners. Whatever it is about them, they are able to innately manipulate the world of magic.

[TheGeckoKing]

I always thought that Arcane CHA Casters just believe they can do magic, and with a great-grandpa like Deathscale the Skyeater, Barbarus the Angel-Eater, or Kakazoo the Mad Fae, the catalyst of slightly magical blood actually makes it possible.

Think Iron Heart Surge swapped in reverse. Instead of "NO, THIS SILLY SUN ENDS NOW.", it's "HEY! REALITY! GET OVER HERE AND BLOW UP SOME GOBLINS."

Either that, since Intimidate is a CHA based skill, his DNA/Blood is just making Intimidate rolls for him against reality.

[Coidzor]

Mortals don't.

You're missing the part where the point of sorcerers is that they do. Which is why you got rid of them in your setting because you felt it was impossible or should be in your settting or whatever your reason was.

[Frozen_Feet]

A while back, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181723) I produced two different explanations. One had a Cha-caster basically wooing or intimidating manifestations of natural laws; the other had them smash the internal machinery of the universe with their mind to make it do what they want.

Really, if you're ever watched Bleach, Cha-based magic is easy to write off as Spiritual Pressure of sorts. If your ego is this big, it'll leave a lasting mark on the spiritual plane.

Also, I can't fathom why Sorcerers can't be Cha-casters because "humans aren't this or that". There's no imperative for a Sorcerer to be human. Furthermore, in D&D, faeries and dragons, the ones who do have an intimate connection to magic, are some of the most fertile creatures in all of fantasy, and regularly have off-spring with so-called mortals. I don't see what's wrong with "your ancestor was a dragon/faerie/God/" explanation.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yeah, okay I'm injecting some of my own setting's flavour into my argument. But sorcerers are still just everyday human beings (or elves, or gnomes, or...). There's some suggestion that they may have a tiny drop of fey or draconic blood in them. Or then again, they might not. The mortal races aren't inherently magical (except for gnomes, a little tiny bit). Charisma, as evidenced by its use in SLAs, is the stat used to determine your inherent, integral power. Fey have that power. Maybe dragons have it. Mortals don't.

The fact is that Sorcerers are in fact innately magical creatures, mortal or not.

Most fey are mortal too! They just live for a very long time in most cases.

Magical beasts are mortal as well.

Also the mortal races were created by gods. How do you get 'completely mundane' from 'literally created by deities'?

[Orzel]

A wizard learns to make a gun, builds one, and shoots a goblin the the face.

A cleric begs a divine being for a gun, in granted a gun, and shoots a goblin in the face.

A sorcerer thinks real hard, awakens his magic blood , turns his right hand into a gun, and shoots a goblin in the face.


Magic is made of up formulas. You do X, Y, and Z in order and a frog appears. The problem is X Y and Z are not common stuff. X is like say "Unga Bunga." Y is "tap your middle fingers together 4 times". Z is "Think of a red frog".

You normally will never be tapping your thumbs and thinking of red frogs while saying "Unga Bunga". This is while wizards study so much. They have to figure out what random crap, when done together, creates a magical effect.

Clerics cheat and beg divine beings to do the random crap for them.

Sorcerers cheat too. If they think hard enough, their internal magical power does half the work for them. They just gotta say "Unga Bunga" and focus their willpower real hard. That external focus is Charisma.

[Urpriest]

The thing that kind of bothers me about the whole thing is that, unless you have taken a specific feat that says otherwise, that super-charismatic sorcerer, being all innately sly, sweet-talking the universe to make her bend to his whims because he's got the touch, he's got the powah? Being all, "Hey baby, want to immolate my enemies? Yeah? Of course you do." That guy with the magic in his blood?

That guy?

Yeah, he still needs to throw some bat poop at his enemies when he wants to cast Fireball.





How does that make sense?

In my view, this is the difference between Sorcerors and, for example, Psions:

Psionic classes impose their will/focus/sense of self on the world, and the world magically complies. Sorcerors also impose their sense of self on the world, but they do so not by wishing for direct results, but by casting preexisting spells.

Basically, spells are part of who a Sorceror is. It might take years of research for a Wizard to figure out the words and components necessary for a new spell. The Sorceror? It's part of who he is. The Wizard can tell you all kinds of interesting reasons why fireballs need bat guano. The Sorceror just looks at you blankly and asks, "Why wouldn't it need bat guano? Isn't it obvious? I thought everybody just knew these things." As a Sorceror, magical incantations are simply the behavior that makes the most sense, and their self confidence is what allows them to carry these behaviors through.

[Nero24200]

I think Charisma spellcasting was really made as a mechanical choice rather than a fluff one. Let's be honset, even with spellcasting tied to charisma it's still seen heavily as a dump stat - So what happens when we take the spellcasting away as well?

[Heliomance]

Charisma has more synergy available to it than any other stat. Go look up the X stat to Y bonus thread, and see just how many things you can get charisma to - some of them twice.

[Psyren]

That guy?

Yeah, he still needs to throw some bat poop at his enemies when he wants to cast Fireball.




How does that make sense?

I actually agree, and Pathfinder fixed that - Sorcerers get Eschew Materials for free.