Fathers in OoTS

[Ronan]

So, the last comic showed it up, Elan's dad as evil, and Haley's kinda stubborn, but hey, I can be judgeing(?) before the right time (not native english speaker)

Roy's dad is clearly very egocentric, as is the father to no one, but clearly father figure Lord Shojo.

I'm kinda seeing a pattern here, are these fathers tend to mind ther own businesses a little more than they should?

Discuss

[Kewangji]

Roy's grandfather is not selfish, though he's a father.

[cheezewizz2000]

I can't link to the relevant tropes, but I think it's kind of a staple of fantasy litrature that fathers are often an obstacle to be overcome.

Edit: Here is is. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AbusiveParents) Eugene even gets a mention

Edit edit: Pretty much all of the parent tropes. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheParentTrope)

[Morquard]

Roy's grandfather is not selfish, though he's a father.
I don't know, we never saw that relationship from the son-perspective, just his own, and then after we already disliked Eugene.
However he seemed to have treated Eugene for wanting to become a wizard instead of a fighter, much like Eugene treated Roy for being a fighter instead of a wizard.

[Innis Cabal]

We did see their relationship from Eugene's viewpoint in Start of Darkness. His father wanted him to go fishing with him and Eugene refused so he could read. He was pretty dismissive of his father and his hobbies. And we can see how he felt about him being a warrior on how he treats his son.

[Wrecan]

Elan and Roy's dads are jerks (if not outright evil), but Durkon seems to have had no problems with his ancestors (presumably including his dad) and Haley's dad, despite being a thief, seems to have been a pretty typical father's attitudes. Haley loved her dad enough to go out of her way to try to ransom/rescue him.

We know nothing about V or Belkar's dads.

[Scarlet Knight]

Samantha the bandit queen's father loved her, even though she was evil and rotten.

Daigo looks to be a good father-to-be.

[EmperorSarda]

Samantha the bandit queen's father loved her, even though she was evil and rotten.

He still knocked her out when she was low on hit points.

[JonestheSpy]

As I've mentioned before, there is a strong theme of missing fathers throughout the story. And yes, the theme of the Absent Father, and the finding of the father and possible reconciliation/conflict from that meeting can be found in stories throughout history, from Theseus to Arthur to Luke Skywalker.

The whole plot was originally propelled by Roy's attempt to please/show-up/rescue his dead father's spirit. Eugene was always emotionally absent, and Roy is still trying to deal with that. Interestingly, Roy made a big step forward in that regard while dead, both from deciding not to sink to his dad's emotional level any more and through meeting his grandfather, who acts as a real paternal figure.

Haley was largely motivated by amassing enough loot to ransom er father, and Elan's family background spurred the Linear Guild plotlines. We're seeing all the story about Elan and Haley's missing fathers and the results of their reunions right now.

Durkon is currently in exile from his fathers. He comes from a strongly paternal culture, and his 'spiritual father', his high priest, sent him into permanent exile. We know from the Oracle that he'll only be returning postumously, but the very fact that he'll be laid to rest with his male ancestors made him weep for joy.

Belkar is a little psycho with no family, but has been largely tamed and taught how to behave without betraying his nature by the paternal-figure spiritual teacher Shojo (a la Gandalf, Ben Kenobi, Merlin, etc).

And in Start of Darkness we see how Redcloak gets so messed up when both his real family and his spiritual father (the former Bearer) are taken from him in one brutal swoop, leaving a stricken young man to implement a world-shaking Plan on his own.

EDIT: Almost forgot Varsuvius. Though with elves the entire father/mother thing is ambiguous, V is the actual missing parent in this case, leaving behind his family so that she can seek arcane mastery at first, then to keep them safe during the quest to save the world.

[calar]

One thing I would like to point out is the comparison between Tarquin and Ian. Both seem enamored with their children and refuse to believe that they are anything but the main character. Despite this they remain on opposite sides of the alignment spectrum. As for Eugene, who actually is the father of the real main character, he consistently makes fun of Roy and degrades him for not living up to standards. Just food for thought.

[ken]

<< snip>>

Durkon is currently in exile from his fathers. He comes from a strongly paternal culture, and his 'spiritual father', his high priest, sent him into permanent exile. We know from the Oracle that he'll only be returning postumously, but the very fact that he'll be laid to rest with his male ancestors made him weep for joy.

<<snip>>


Side note...
In http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html
Durkon's question was:
"How will I finally be returnin' to my beloved dwarven homelands?"
Answer: Posthumously

This does not rule out returning more than once (or returning while alive). just that the FINAL return will be posthumously...

[Dvandemon]

Knowing the Oracle that is the likely conclusion leaving a lot of room for ambiguity.
:durkon::I'm home! And yet I'm not dead?

[adrejer]

I do not see how the argument can be made that Shojo was egocentric as all he did was for the betterment of his people. He faked senility to keep the death squats of his fellow noblemen away and thus be able to be an effective leader and thus be able to make the decisions that he thought was best for his people.
Yes he lied to an order of paladins but that was only because he did not want their oath of noninterference to threaten his people or the rest of the world for that matter.

[Swordpriest]

Side note...
In http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html
Durkon's question was:
"How will I finally be returnin' to my beloved dwarven homelands?"
Answer: Posthumously

This does not rule out returning more than once (or returning while alive). just that the FINAL return will be posthumously...

Very interesting point. So he could return multiple times, so long as he eventually dies abroad and his remains are brought back to the dwarven homelands.

[Jay R]

Samantha the bandit queen's father loved her, even though she was evil and rotten.

But he didn't buy her that pony (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html) she asked for when she was eight.

[Gift Jeraff]

We do know a bit about V's parents: They are both rangers and V did not seem to enjoy the same thing as them (loathed camping (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html)).

Also worth noting that Redcloak's biological father seems to have died before Redcloak's story begins. If you wanna go further into this supposed "father theme," perhaps that could explain why he so easily became a slave to the Dark One's will.

Now I do not think there is an overarching theme of fatherhood in the whole story, but I do think there is one in the MitD's story: note how he is always around father figures of sorts (Right-Eye, Redcloak, Xykon, O-Chul, arguably the roaches) and he remembers a dad from his past.

[Innis Cabal]

Durkon is currently in exile from his fathers. He comes from a strongly paternal culture, and his 'spiritual father', his high priest, sent him into permanent exile. We know from the Oracle that he'll only be returning postumously, but the very fact that he'll be laid to rest with his male ancestors made him weep for joy.

This is pure conjecture and you hammering things in where there really isn't any reason or need to. We're not really given to much insight on this fact in the Origin of the PC's...let alone through the comic. He wants to return home because he misses home. Not because he misses his father.


Belkar is a little psycho with no family, but has been largely tamed and taught how to behave without betraying his nature by the paternal-figure spiritual teacher Shojo (a la Gandalf, Ben Kenobi, Merlin, etc).

We don't know that to even make conjecture. I do believe he mentions family at least once but I can't recall where. Either way, we really can't make any assumptions on Belkar's family or lack there off.


And in Start of Darkness we see how Redcloak gets so messed up when both his real family and his spiritual father (the former Bearer) are taken from him in one brutal swoop, leaving a stricken young man to implement a world-shaking Plan on his own.

He was messed up by this yes, but his plan isn't based around the loss of his parents. It's based around the urging of his God.


EDIT: Almost forgot Varsuvius. Though with elves the entire father/mother thing is ambiguous, V is the actual missing parent in this case, leaving behind his family so that she can seek arcane mastery at first, then to keep them safe during the quest to save the world.

He's not the missing parent in any sense really. I suspect he wasn't a parent in the first place if any indication of how he treats his mate is a clue. I suspect he was more a teacher then a "parent" figure but really that's just conjecture on my end and we really have no base to judge it off of.

The point is, of the six party members there is little to no statement on how they felt about their fathers/mothers/family. We can make guesses but really it's just trying to hammer everyone in to a single trope point so that it fits. Which it more or less really doesn't.


We do know a bit about V's parents: They are both rangers and V did not seem to enjoy the same thing as them (loathed camping (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html)).

He never says they're rangers. He just says they took him camping and he hated it.

[Gift Jeraff]

He never says they're rangers. He just says they took him camping and he hated it.
Origins says they're rangers, if I remember correctly.

[Innis Cabal]

Ah, I don't have that book on hand so if it does then I retract my claim.

[Deliverance]

We don't know that to even make conjecture. I do believe he mentions family at least once but I can't recall where. Either way, we really can't make any assumptions on Belkar's family or lack there off.

The few times he mentions his family that I recall, he refers to the female members:
#165 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html) - "Aunt Judy, is that you?" to the sorceress
#476 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html) - "Mama Bitterleaf's Secret +2 Circumstance Bonus Ingredient"

Used as jokes, which is the Belkster's way, it is nevertheless safe to say that his Aunt Judy must have left a lasting impression on him given the circumstances. :smallbiggrin:

I have to agree with you: The idea that Belkar has no family to speak of or lacked a father figure until Lord Shojo stepped in is entirely unsupported by the story. Belkar is simply too self-centered a character for us to know him well enough to judge.

[Innis Cabal]

It is also unsupported that he saw Lord Shojo as a father figure. It's never said ever. He just said he liked Shojo because he made paladin's clean up after his cat.

[Nimrod's Son]

Origins says they're rangers, if I remember correctly.
Yes, it does. "Born to ranger parents more than a century ago in the Great Elven Forest..."

[Innis Cabal]

Then I stand corrected on that piece. The others still stand as valid.

[SPoD]

I think we can safely limit the father-issues to the human members of OOTS and still have a valid theme. After all, the nonhuman members come from radically different societies where parental roles are likely very different. I don't think we need to do Oracle-style mental gymnastics to make V, Durkon, and Belkar fit the mold.

And while Shojo doesn't fit with Belkar particularly well for the Absent/Bad Father Theme, he fits with Miko perfectly. Learning about the betrayal of her father figure is what sent her careening over the edge.

So, yeah: Stick with the major human characters, and case for an intentional theme is pretty strong.

[Winged789]

Roy's mom= Nice lady, early separation from family due to death.
Roy's dad= Kind of an ass, does little to support his son's personal interests, etc.

Haley's mom= Wanted better life for her family, untimely separation from family due to death.
Haley's dad= Kind of an ass, has little interests in opinions other then his own, can't be reasoned with etc.

Elan's mom= Seems nice, works with little children, lost contact with one son due to unreconcileable differences with the forces of evil.
Elan's dad=evil to the core, not only does he not support his Elan but, he intends to either kill him or use him to become famous, etc.

The closest thing we have as an exception to this off the top of my head is V and V's mate, which seeing as V may in fact be male and seems to be the neglectful crazy-person in the relationship would only go on supporting this.

[Swordpriest]

Yes -- at this point, you could put it to music and sing it. :smallbiggrin: Because it's an old, familiar tune ....

[Winged789]

It makes me wonder what the Bitterleafs are like, though so far all the best examples of this behavior are coming from human families, so the trend may not apply.

[Kurald Galain]

Elan's dad=evil to the core, not only does he not support his Elan but, he intends to either kill him or use him to become famous, etc.
If Tarquin had intended to kill Elan, Elan would be dead by now.

Frankly, we don't really know all that much about Haley's or Elan's mom, and most of what we know about Roy's mom is from her afterlife.

[Scarlet Knight]

It's a shame, the most loving family are the kobolds: Yik Yik & Yok Yok.

[Squark]

To be fair, kobolds are fairly family oriented in the traditional setting... sort of. Being considered a role model by a child is every kobold's dream, but they don't make much of individual families, since considering how much mating goes on in a warren, it's nigh-impossible to tell who the father is, and females lay their eggs in a communal area where Kobold Nurses (Mammilian terminology aside) take care of all the eggs and children. So most kobolds really don't know who their parents actually are (but they can smell that they're related to another kobold, which is how they avoid incest).


That being said, Rich seems to have created his own culture for Kobolds, so this doesn't seem to be the case in OoTS

[Winged789]

If Tarquin had intended to kill Elan, Elan would be dead by now.

Frankly, we don't really know all that much about Haley's or Elan's mom, and most of what we know about Roy's mom is from her afterlife.

correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that in the following link that he intends to either eventually defeat his son, and get to rule forever, or be killed, and live forever in the infamy of his story. he even goes as far as to say that he has not killed him yet because he wants the drama to build, and that if Elan forces it he will let him off with a wound so that they can have a real showdown down the road. At the very best even assuming that he wanted the story but had not intention of harming Elan, he is still a maniacal dictator manipulating rulers and offspring alike.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html

true we don't know very much about any of the three parents, except a little about how people seem to have viewed them Roy seemed to like his mom, and she DID get into heaven, Elan's mom raised a child to be one of the kindest, well meaning beings in OOtS, even while his twin brother was the opposite, and Haley's Mom while we know little of her is still not deliberately shown to be an ass, which is more then could be said for any of the fathers shown so far.

[Scarlet Knight]

He still knocked her out when she was low on hit points.

"Spare the rod , spoil the bandit Queen " as they always say.

[Swordpriest]

It's a shame, the most loving family are the kobolds: Yik Yik & Yok Yok.

Good point. :smallfrown: "He was a good father...." "But an even better fashion accessory!"

[Paseo H]

Yeah, I was just about to post on this myself, at least the father side of the equation.

On a personal note, I think Roy's father is the most maddening character in the series. He might not be nearly pure evil like Xykon or Tarquin, but he still seems to have no redeeming qualities, and seems to be powered by being a complete and utter Jerkass to Roy.

[Hydro]

Also reminds me of that bandit-lord bickering with his sorcerous daughter.

I don't think V is a bad parent though, just a neglectful one. When V's kids are adventuring-age I'll bet V won't have too much trouble reconnecting with them (assuming they can get past hating his/her guts).

Also, Tarquin is actually remarkably nonjudgmental and a pretty nice guy to his son. He's just also really, really evil. But can you imagine if he was that evil AND shared, say, Eugine's cantankerous attitude with respect to his son making different choices from him?

[Forum Staff]

Two threads regarding parenting themes in the comic have been merged.

Please avoid starting new threads on the same subject as an existing thread.

[Paseo H]

Also reminds me of that bandit-lord bickering with his sorcerous daughter.

I don't think V is a bad parent though, just a neglectful one. When V's kids are adventuring-age I'll bet V won't have too much trouble reconnecting with them (assuming they can get past hating his/her guts).

Also, Tarquin is actually remarkably nonjudgmental and a pretty nice guy to his son. He's just also really, really evil. But can you imagine if he was that evil AND shared, say, Eugine's cantankerous attitude with respect to his son making different choices from him?

Well, the thing of that is, you expect evil people to be mean and difficult.

Eugene is supposed to be Lawful Good, right?

Sorry, but I'm a firm believer in that Good Should Be Nice.

[Kurald Galain]

Sorry, but I'm a firm believer in that Good Should Be Nice.
And yet, OOTS has plenty of examples to the contrary, the most obvious being Miko.

[Themrys]

Also reminds me of that bandit-lord bickering with his sorcerous daughter.

I don't think V is a bad parent though, just a neglectful one. When V's kids are adventuring-age I'll bet V won't have too much trouble reconnecting with them (assuming they can get past hating his/her guts).

Also, Tarquin is actually remarkably nonjudgmental and a pretty nice guy to his son. He's just also really, really evil. But can you imagine if he was that evil AND shared, say, Eugine's cantankerous attitude with respect to his son making different choices from him?

Well...what do we have...

Tarquin: Probably a good father (we don't know how he treated Nale...maybe he learned something), but evil person.

Eugene: Horrible father, but (probably) good alignmentwise...maybe rather neutral. (I am not sure where treating anyone like he treats Roy falls on the good side of the alignment chart)

Ian: Good-ish father (he raised Haley never to trust anyone, but being the paranoid person he is, he couldn't have done otherwise without feeling neglectful), probably good-ish person.


Ian wins.


Regarding V (whom I don't count as father because we officially don't know hir sex)...well, s/he probably doesn't intend to harm hir adopted offspring emotionally, in which regard s/he is better than Eugene, but let's look at what V has done:
-left the family for a long time, and without even writing letters
-left the children and Inky when they were badly wounded, only asking if their injuries were life-threatening.
-accepted the divorce without even trying to get some right to see the children or anything.

V probably doesn't know/realize how this will affect the children, who now probably feel worthless, since "other parent" doesn't seem to care about them at all...but does this make hir a better parent?

Ian may have raised Haley to be a comepletely paranoid person, but he did show he cared about her. Which is very important for a child.



Oh, and let's not forget Elan's mother who never told him who his father was and that he had a twin brother. This lack of knowledge could have killed him.

[Haruki-kun]

Well, the thing of that is, you expect evil people to be mean and difficult.

Eugene is supposed to be Lawful Good, right?

Sorry, but I'm a firm believer in that Good Should Be Nice.

Miko was Lawful Good, too, though...

[Themrys]

Miko was Lawful Good, too, though...

Yes, but Miko didn't go out of her way to harm someone. She didn't make an effort to be nice, but did she ever do something as outright and unnecessary mean as Eugene did when he gave Roy all those books about "Your body was made into a bone golem" ?
And Miko would have delivered the message about V's pact with evil...although that may be more a question of lawful or not. (One could interpret it as Eugene not caring whether V went to hell or not as long as Xykon was defeated, though.)

[Kurald Galain]

Yes, but Miko didn't go out of her way to harm someone. She didn't make an effort to be nice, but did she ever do something as outright and unnecessary mean as Eugene did when he gave Roy all those books about "Your body was made into a bone golem" ?

Actually, an interesting question is what would happen if an oathspirit like Eugene changes alignment while in the afterlife.

For example, tying up an angel in order to manifest at the Azure City trial is clearly not a lawful act; and refusing to scry for Roy is clearly not a good act.

[Themrys]

Actually, an interesting question is what would happen if an oathspirit like Eugene changes alignment while in the afterlife.


I guess being an oathspirit only keeps you from the good afterlife variants?
(Otherwise, you could do this in order to not go to hell when you just did something horrible before a sudden death, but get time to change alignment in afterlife)

I think some kind of punishment would be fair...then again, the D&D afterlife isn't exactly what I'd call fair...

[Hydro]

Regarding V (whom I don't count as father because we officially don't know hir sex)...well, s/he probably doesn't intend to harm hir adopted offspring emotionally, in which regard s/he is better than Eugene, but let's look at what V has done:
-left the family for a long time, and without even writing letters
-left the children and Inky when they were badly wounded, only asking if their injuries were life-threatening.
-accepted the divorce without even trying to get some right to see the children or anything.

V probably doesn't know/realize how this will affect the children, who now probably feel worthless, since "other parent" doesn't seem to care about them at all...but does this make hir a better parent?

Ian may have raised Haley to be a comepletely paranoid person, but he did show he cared about her. Which is very important for a child.

This is a matter of my personal convictions, but I think that not being there is better than being there and doing a bad job. In the former case, other family members or mentor figures can fill in; in the latter case, you're doing direct harm.

I definitely think that V did the right thing by not fighting the divorce, but others may feel differently. I'm just explaining how I could say "not a bad parent, just neglectful", because I realize in hindsight how that might not compute to some. :)

[goodyarn]

One thing I would like to point out is the comparison between Tarquin and Ian. Both seem enamored with their children and refuse to believe that they are anything but the main character. Despite this they remain on opposite sides of the alignment spectrum.

Comparing Tarquin and Ian is fascinating.

Tarquin has tried to help OOTS in their quest (offering magic items), and remains the Order's best hope of finding Girard.

Ian is literally sitting on the ground with arms folded while Hailey points out that now she is going to have to go save the world without his help.

Ian doesn't even believe Hailey's quest is a real quest, while Tarquin deduces that Elan's quest must be of great importance.

More evidence from the Giant that "good" doesn't necessarily mean "ally" and "evil" doesn't necessarily mean "foe."

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm just explaining how I could say "not a bad parent, just neglectful", because I realize in hindsight how that might not compute to some. :)
Eugene's gravestone sums it up rather nicely: "Master wizard, devoted husband, passable father."

[Themrys]

This is a matter of my personal convictions, but I think that not being there is better than being there and doing a bad job. In the former case, other family members or mentor figures can fill in; in the latter case, you're doing direct harm.

I definitely think that V did the right thing by not fighting the divorce, but others may feel differently. I'm just explaining how I could say "not a bad parent, just neglectful", because I realize in hindsight how that might not compute to some. :)


Well, there are bad parents and there are worse parents. And V might be a better parent if s/he visited the family more often. While Eugene probably was a better parent far away from home and children.


I agree that V did the right thing not fighting the divorce, but a letter or something which explains hir reasons would be nice.
V's mate doesn't know that V wants to come home and beg forgiveness. V's problem is that s/he doesn't understand the emotional needs of others. Probably, s/he thinks they are better off thinking s/he doesn't care, in case s/he is killed. I don't think this is the case, though.

[TreesOfDeath]

I dont think its intenitonal, and as other posters suggested, its a staple of stories. Also RuleOfDrama, parents have to either be jerkasses or dead.

That said, Redcloak seemed to have a loving family, SOD SPOILER[spoiler:Righteye seemed a pretty decent father], Xykon's parents didn't appear do anything worse than try to discpline a socpiaphtic brat with super powers (I sooo wish that when Roy confront Xykon, Xykon qouted Mbison "What is it with you heroes anyway? I killed me fater to and you dont hear me whining about it"), Samntha's dad was genereally quite loving (to the point of spoiling her), and still cared about her even after what had happened, Im guessing Durkon's parents are fairly normal good dwarf parents.
V seemed decent to

In Ian's defense, think of where he grew up. That backstabbing hell hole where trusting anyone was an easy way to get screwed over or die. I'm betting we'll find out a traitor was invovled in the death of Haley's mom, thereby driving Ian insanely paranoid. And crazy paranoid aisde, he seems a fairly loving father.

Now... in Shojos offence, he could have been a bit nicer and more open with Miko, though shes crazy stubborn, cant have been easy to work with, and both national sercuity and the fate of reality was at stake. And he did try.