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FishAreWet
2011-01-25, 10:34 AM
http://img.booru.org/Grognard//images/18/17da92971da544fd899072b42291805203192c3a.jpghttp://img.booru.org/Grognard//images/13/bb4f0f32fe0397f93a6f36b2dbb9c604444fcb30.jpghttp://img.booru.org/Grognard//images/12/ce9ebf6b30c15992cff6851f88ff14a56bc2fd39.jpghttp://img.booru.org/Grognard//images/12/5b5b4cb00a658c78462cf15f45c878ba7075d484.jpg


Things really big. I've heard of a "parts" system where the head, arms, legs, wings each get their own turn. How does this work exactly? How do you handle hitting it with a sword? Should it even do damage?

Please note, I'm talking about high level games where you are actually fighting these creatures. Not dealing with them or ignoring them or going on a quest on top of them.

Vauron
2011-01-25, 11:24 AM
It isn't too complex, really. First, decide how many 'parts' you want to act. For Progenitus, I'd likely have each head be a part, and maybe the different heads could do different things, depending on if I want to spend the time making each unique. Each part has its own hp, actions, and possibly initiative. Have you ever played a video game where a boss had multiple points you needed to target? It isn't that hard to imagine, is it?

Kaje
2011-01-25, 11:28 AM
I played in a game of a completely different system where we battled a giant three-headed dog. Each of the heads was built as a separate monster, with individual initiative and abilities.

Urpriest
2011-01-25, 11:28 AM
IIRC some of the Elder Evils in Elder Evils are very very big. Atropus for example is the moon (or maybe just as big as the moon, not sure). So if you can look at a copy of that it might give you some ideas of how to handle this kind of thing.

flabort
2011-01-25, 11:33 AM
The top one looks like a hydra, and there already is a hydra, but...
damn, that is a huge hydra. the "normal" ones would look like ants next to that! :smalleek:

Vauron
2011-01-25, 11:37 AM
The top one looks like a hydra, and there already is a hydra, but...
damn, that is a huge hydra. the "normal" ones would look like ants next to that! :smalleek:

More to the point, its a gigantic Divine Hydra.

Keld Denar
2011-01-25, 11:40 AM
Pseudonatrual Paragon Divine Hydra?

*casts Summon Fax Celestis*

FatJose
2011-01-25, 12:02 PM
You would have to build this thing as a dungeon. At that size, you cant do damage to it in any way that wouldnt completely destroy any suspension of disbelief. Take the mountain, that giant could be an entire game map, with the creatures attempts at swiping off or crushing the pcs would be like traps. As the players travel they weaken the monster by attacking whatever weak points it has. Besides that, there isn't much else besides epic buffing the hell out of a warrior and having him/her duke it out with the monster Superman style.

I'm not sure but I think one of the MMs uses similar encounter rules for the Kraken.

randomhero00
2011-01-25, 12:11 PM
I think you could do it. Just do it without a battle map, be very descriptive (printing pictures works well here too).

As for stats, basically have multiple parts with temp HPs. Lots of temp hps. This represents its size. So if they say, "we'll focus on the foot first to try and topple him" then you'd have stats for that.

Such as
50 AC
20 DR
auto succeeds on saves
35 SR
2000 temp hps
1000 hps

Something like that, depending on how much dmg your group does. If they make it through the real hps, then his leg collapses. Describe it by what did the most damage. So if several wizards where doing the majority of damage with fire, you could say "The leg goes limp as its charred muscle can no longer support itself".

Also when they got through the temp hps, they'd have to deal with being stomped on or swallowed. As once youre through the temp hps it notices you. So probably each round there's a 40/60 chance of something like that, that the whole group needs to make reflex saves and are only allowed one move action or swift action before its insta death (assuming no contingencies and such). I just mean you wouldn't roll for damage, they'd be dead.

PretzelKing
2011-01-25, 12:14 PM
oh man, thats so awesome!! now im jealous, i wish our group got to tangle with something like that...

Aemoh87
2011-01-25, 12:29 PM
I agree with Fat Jose, the best way to do it isn't to assign it massive HP because frankly that is two easy (wizards see it as a joke) and boring. Turn the huge monster into a dungeon where they must fight off appendages, dodge trap like attacks, as well as face the difficulties in scaling such a beast. Then when they get to the "vulnerable" spot they whack until it dies. Then since your an evil DM just like you make them have to survive the massive monster collapsing and dying.

Also fun side quest, make them return to the corpse of the monster as a new dungeon!

senrath
2011-01-25, 01:08 PM
More to the point, its a gigantic Divine Hydra.

A gigantic Divine Hydra with Protection from everything.

DarkEternal
2011-01-25, 01:09 PM
I agree with Fat Jose, the best way to do it isn't to assign it massive HP because frankly that is two easy (wizards see it as a joke) and boring. Turn the huge monster into a dungeon where they must fight off appendages, dodge trap like attacks, as well as face the difficulties in scaling such a beast. Then when they get to the "vulnerable" spot they whack until it dies. Then since your an evil DM just like you make them have to survive the massive monster collapsing and dying.

Also fun side quest, make them return to the corpse of the monster as a new dungeon!

Which they will escape with one of the million teleport and teleport like spells in the scope of a single round.

Still, a nice idea.

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-25, 01:18 PM
I like the dungeon idea, reminds me of Titans in Scion.

How do you adjudicate things that ignore how big and tough something is?

Your basic save/lose, save/suck, save/die effects?

Sipex
2011-01-25, 01:32 PM
I would refer to video games and movies on this one.

Normally, when fighting something incredibly huge your characters resort to one of a few options:

1) Climb on it and hit it's weak point. For example, Legolas climbing the elephants and shooting them, point blank, in the head. Believable at smaller (but still huge) levels.

2) Match it's size with either a growth spell or something akin to a giant robot (ala Power Rangers). See also: Kratos.

3) Attack it section by section and require a final finishing blow from something advanced (ie: an artifact or a missle) to finish that section off. A good example of this is Final Fantasy 10 in the battle versus Sin.

FatJose
2011-01-25, 02:17 PM
I would refer to video games and movies on this one.


Yeah, you could youtube clips of Shadow of the Colossus...though I think the monsters in this situation are much, MUCH bigger from the examples given.

2xMachina
2011-01-25, 02:30 PM
Can anyone tell me what each picture is? I just recognize the hydra.

3rd may be a Terrasque, but icy.

NichG
2011-01-25, 02:54 PM
I like the dungeon idea, reminds me of Titans in Scion.

How do you adjudicate things that ignore how big and tough something is?

Your basic save/lose, save/suck, save/die effects?

In a campaign that I'm in, we regularly interact with very large creatures. For example, a biological starship. As such, there is a rule that all spells have a size limit in order to effect an entire creature, so you can't, say, cast Blade Brothers on the starship or even Teleport. You can still fireball their hide to do damage, and things like that, but they're basically immune to status effects from such spells so an Orb of Fire for instance would not provoke a save. I'm assuming weapon enchantments that provoke saves would have the same limits but it hasn't come up.

Its possible to research spells that do effect things at a much greater scale. The spell level modifier is +10 to convert any spell in such a way - so basically you need epic spells to even do so much as Grease such a thing.

On top of that they have bags of hitpoints. Once you shut down pretty much all 'effect the entire creature' spells, hitpoints actually do a decent job since you can't skip them as easily.

Same campaign, we've both fought such creatures on the outside (in which case they have multiple parts that can be targetted and, as a whole, gadzooks of hitpoints - 20000hp or 80000hp or whatever) and from the inside (in which case its more like navigating a dungeon, and once you find the heart or the brain and destroy it its over for the beasty).

Along these lines, we have a limit to the amount of healing even a True Ressurection can provide at 100hp/caster level, to avoid us killing a damaged bioship and resurrecting it as a form of healing.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-25, 02:55 PM
Which they will escape with one of the million teleport and teleport like spells in the scope of a single round.

Still, a nice idea.

Huh, what? *casts Apocalypse From the Sky*

Oh, look, damage dealt by area exposed. I can has xp?

Aemoh87
2011-01-25, 02:59 PM
Well with my dungeon idea you make the monster totally immune to damage except in vulnerable spots. It may not be exactly like the rule states but you have to do something to make it worth while. Also you need a higher level teleport to get off these monsters since dimension hop would just knock off a few dice of falling.

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-25, 03:20 PM
Generally if something has pile of HP, you try to get around the HP and disable it some other way. I am not a fan of 'anything but damage doesn't effect it because it is too big' as the solution.

Although I suppose anything that allows a save could automatically fail, all you'd need to give it is 'doesn't fail on a 1', and its piles of HD should makes its saves unfailable.

Is there anything that is a takedown that wouldn't do HP damage, and also doesn't allow a save?

On an unrelated note:

BESM handles really large things by requiring attacks to have to effect a minimum area based on the size of the thing in order to deal damage. You could incorporate that mechanic, although that penalizes non-magic users even more than they already are from not being magic users.

If you incorporated a similar mechanic into D&D. BESM of course is effects-based, so there really isn't the same dichotomy.

Karsh
2011-01-25, 03:29 PM
Is there anything that is a takedown that wouldn't do HP damage, and also doesn't allow a save?

Standard Tarrasque tactics. Summon Allips for strength damage.

EDIT: That actually isn't a bad idea. The square cube ratio should indicate that if you could draw down their strength enough, those things would collapse under their own weight. Maybe attacking muscles to do HP damage does STR damage to the creature in its entirety because it has functionally infinite HP?

DeltaEmil
2011-01-25, 03:33 PM
You mean wisdom drain (strength damage is a shadow thingy). Also, ability damage is useless against the Tarrasque, but ability drain is gold. Against practically everything, basically, except for undead.

Hmmm, an undead Tarrasque could solve this peculiar problem it normally faces. Or perhaps a clockwork-tarrasque?

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-25, 03:36 PM
The square cube ratio should indicate that...

Please, think of the catgirls!

You have to ignore square cube ratio in a fantasy setting with giant anything...

Karsh
2011-01-25, 03:44 PM
Please, think of the catgirls!

You have to ignore square cube ratio in a fantasy setting with giant anything...

Nonsense. Supernatural creatures have supernatural body composition that handwaves the fact that regular bone would shatter like glass under its own weight on that scale. We can go further to say that most of a Colossal+++ monster's strength is spent merely supporting its own weight and that the STR score that is used for attacks is actually more functionally just the force of gravity plus a little extra oomph from the big guys.

Hence why doing STR damage/drain (not even reducing to 0, just getting the max possible load below the creature's weight) would be an extremely effective way to kill something that big.

BiblioRook
2011-01-25, 03:47 PM
Hmm, kinda an unrelated side-point, but I would imagine a creature of that size would have alot of 'parasites' or smaller creatures living on it (or even living off it, as the host creature is their actual means of substance)
This probably would result in a symbiotic relationship in that the lessor creatures would act as a sort of natural security system, attacking other lesser creatures trying to attack the host.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-25, 03:53 PM
Something like The Hemo-Goblin (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Hemo-Goblin_%28New_Earth%29)... Man, that's one horrible pun from DC.

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-25, 03:54 PM
Supernatural creatures have supernatural body composition that handwaves the fact that regular bone would shatter like glass under its own weight on that scale. We can go further to say that most of a Colossal+++ monster's strength is spent merely supporting its own weight and that the STR score that is used for attacks is actually more functionally just the force of gravity plus a little extra oomph from the big guys.

Ok, is it the creature's supernatural composition that is holding up its weight, or its strength score? Does that mean a dragon in an AMF is actually a pile of goo, since it only works because of it's supernatural composition? What about a hill giant, which has no supernatural aspect to it at all?

In a typical D&D universe, things don't collapse under their own weight the way you would expect them to per laws of physics. So if you drained something's strength, it wouldn't collapse until it had its strength reduced to 0 - just like non-gimongous things.

grimbold
2011-01-25, 03:56 PM
Hmm, kinda an unrelated side-point, but I would imagine a creature of that size would have alot of 'parasites' or smaller creatures living on it (or even living off it, as the host creature is their actual means of substance)
This probably would result in a symbiotic relationship in that the lessor creatures would act as a sort of natural security system, attacking other lesser creatures trying to attack the host.

i must agree
it already happens with creatures like whales
it would make sense for it to happen with these creatures

Jair Barik
2011-01-25, 03:56 PM
A gigantic Divine Hydra with Protection from everything.

Just because of the sheer vagueness of progenitus it would be only fitting to give it a permanent Iron heart surge in effect on itself.

Czin
2011-01-25, 03:59 PM
IIRC some of the Elder Evils in Elder Evils are very very big. Atropus for example is the moon (or maybe just as big as the moon, not sure). So if you can look at a copy of that it might give you some ideas of how to handle this kind of thing.

Atropus is much smaller than the moon at only 700 miles in diameter. And you could only fight his aspect, who was "only" gargantuan.

Czin
2011-01-25, 04:03 PM
Huh, what? *casts Apocalypse From the Sky*

Oh, look, damage dealt by area exposed. I can has xp?

Casting time of one day=Perfect Assassin fodder.

Volos
2011-01-25, 04:03 PM
There was an adventure that one of my favorite DMs ran that was like this. But it was a walking castle / golem. So we could actually go inside of it and mess with the varrious parts. It wasn't so much that the thing itself was the monster but the guy controlling it wanted to take over the kingdom. We beat him, but the golem / castle / area thing almost ran over the city surrounding the royal palace. We were barely able to run it into the bay, causing tidal waves that still killed thousands and thousands of people. We felt helpless, but atleast it didn't unleash all that arcane enegery the BBEG stored into it to kill everyone. :smalleek:

Runestar
2011-01-25, 04:39 PM
Isn't jap anime replete with scenarios of normal-sized people slicing colossal monsters in half with a swing of their sword? :smalltongue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elufODBUmNU

Watch the part at 2:10 min. :smallbiggrin:

Kansaschaser
2011-01-25, 04:48 PM
I had the players encounter "landscape sized" monsters in my game. Here is how I adjucated the encounter.

1. The Monster was Immune to Death Effects and Mind Effects.

2. I chose a regular monster from the Monster Manual that had Fast Healing of at least 1.

3. I said X monster was 1,000 times normal size and it was rampaging across the land.

4. Any ammount of damage the player characters caused I divided by 1,000. So, if they did 2,000 damage in a localized area(such as the foot), the monster really only took 2 damage.

5. The players had to find an opening in the monster(through an open wound) and they had to travel through the monster's bloodstream. They fought the monsters immune system on their way to the monsters brain. I used oozes and slimes for the immune system.

6. They had to travel to the brain and destroy it to defeat the monster. This took two full game sessions. I used brain golems for the brain defenses.

Doug Lampert
2011-01-25, 05:49 PM
I had the players encounter "landscape sized" monsters in my game. Here is how I adjucated the encounter.

1. The Monster was Immune to Death Effects and Mind Effects.

I'd simply declare that the monster is immune to all effects from a spell except HP damage unless the monster's center is within the range of the spell (obviously there's no line of effect, but we can still count range). If the monster is so big that only the big toe is in range of your death effect, then that death effect or ability drain or whatever simply isn't working on this monster.

This also scales for monsters that are "only" 500' tall or whatever, although you'll need a rule to let melee touch act as if it had a range of 30' for purposes of this rule only.

400'+40'/level is up to 1200' (non-epic), mile long monsters are simply immune to almost everything except damage and spells intended to do damage over enourmous distances unless you do somehow get inside them.

Letting an effect that doesn't have the range to reach ANY of the creature's vitals, even if the rest of the monster weren't in the way, do anything serious strikes me as silly, so simply don't allow it unless you get close to something vital.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-25, 05:52 PM
I'd simply declare that the monster is immune to all effects from a spell except HP damage unless the monster's center is within the range of the spell (obviously there's no line of effect, but we can still count range). If the monster is so big that only the big toe is in range of your death effect, then that death effect or ability drain or whatever simply isn't working on this monster.

This also scales for monsters that are "only" 500' tall or whatever, although you'll need a rule to let melee touch act as if it had a range of 30' for purposes of this rule only.

400'+40'/level is up to 1200' (non-epic), mile long monsters are simply immune to almost everything except damage and spells intended to do damage over enourmous distances unless you do somehow get inside them.

Letting an effect that doesn't have the range to reach ANY of the creature's vitals, even if the rest of the monster weren't in the way, do anything serious strikes me as silly, so simply don't allow it unless you get close to something vital.

Yeah, that's a good way of doing it too.

Also, in order to "travel" inside the monster, they had to have waterbreathing. If not, they would have drowned.

FishAreWet
2011-01-25, 06:05 PM
I don't want to play Magic School Bus, I want to play high level DnD. What do you guys suggest for FIGHTING the monsters?

LOTRfan
2011-01-25, 06:06 PM
I know that this is 3.5e, but if I were you I'd check out 4e's Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead. There is an adventure where you travel inside the dead body of a god, similar to what you want. It was a little on the weird side though (two death titans are living in the lungs? A black dracolich lives in the ears?).

Edit: Just read the post above me, never mind. Read the Kraken entry of the Monster Manual. That might help.

Czin
2011-01-25, 06:31 PM
I don't want to play Magic School Bus, I want to play high level DnD. What do you guys suggest for FIGHTING the monsters?

Pull a Jack Noir and unleash enough power to shatter the very planet/moon you are standing on. Let's see him survive that level of power. :smalltongue: But yeah, there would be a specific method to fighting HSH (Holy **** hueg) monsters. You'd need to strike multiple weak points for massive very little damage.

AslanCross
2011-01-25, 06:36 PM
The top one looks like a hydra, and there already is a hydra, but...
damn, that is a huge hydra. the "normal" ones would look like ants next to that! :smalleek:


DM: "So, a five-headed hydra rises up out of the Nameless Abyss."
Players: "...just five heads? That's like what, 5 HD tops?"
DM: "It also rises all the way to the stratosphere."
Players: :smalleek:

Yeah, Progenitus. Horrible divine hydra that, as per Magic:The Gathering mechanics, is almost impossible to kill.

By contrast, the aptly-named Apocalypse Hydra is actually quite a bit smaller.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xeOzo0Axgj0/TMTuI9vwYcI/AAAAAAAABKQ/WeZZIsbMU6c/s1600/img-jc_apocalypse_hydra.jpg
Anyway OP, I do suggest making it a dungeon. The Atropus that Ur-Priest mentioned above was actually planet-sized, but you end up fighting its Aspect (which is a Gargantuan monstrosity, but still to scale with the PCs).

Some of the Elder Evils are beyond comprehension in their true scale (The Leviathan ENCIRCLES THE PLANET), so you end up fighting their Aspects instead, which are still hundreds of feet in size, but more comprehensible. To the point, you fight the Leviathan Aspects inside a hundreds-of-feet-tall spine on the back of the real thing.

Czin
2011-01-25, 06:44 PM
DM: "So, a five-headed hydra rises up out of the Nameless Abyss."
Players: "...just five heads? That's like what, 5 HD tops?"
DM: "It also rises all the way to the stratosphere."
Players: :smalleek:

Yeah, Progenitus. Horrible divine hydra that, as per Magic:The Gathering mechanics, is almost impossible to kill.

By contrast, the aptly-named Apocalypse Hydra is actually quite a bit smaller.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xeOzo0Axgj0/TMTuI9vwYcI/AAAAAAAABKQ/WeZZIsbMU6c/s1600/img-jc_apocalypse_hydra.jpg
Anyway OP, I do suggest making it a dungeon. The Atropus that Ur-Priest mentioned above was actually planet-sized, but you end up fighting its Aspect (which is a Gargantuan monstrosity, but still to scale with the PCs).

Some of the Elder Evils are beyond comprehension in their true scale (The Leviathan ENCIRCLES THE PLANET), so you end up fighting their Aspects instead, which are still hundreds of feet in size, but more comprehensible. To the point, you fight the Leviathan Aspects inside a hundreds-of-feet-tall spine on the back of the real thing.

You also forget that you don't actually fight Sertrous in the flesh, just his Aspect; which is a CR 23 gribbly eldritch abomination which makes one really quail in fear at the thought of fighting his actual, fully powered form which is also probably absolutely gigantic, but fightabl so.

Then of course there's Pandorym, the mind shards? Cr 25 evil purple smog more than capable of TKO'ing an unprepared party, and it is explicitly stated that either Pandorym's mind or Body would be able to end the campaign through it's sheer power, while it was stated that a God's Avatar would be able to go head to head with the true leviathan; then it goes on to say that Pandorym once restored to it's full power would probably obliterate your campaign setting with minimal effort, one world at a time if it didn't head home, so Pandorym is unfightably powerful.

One clue about the actual Leviathan's size is the "Head is the size of a small kingdom" tidbit, if we were to go and put it's head as being as large as say, Spain and give the Leviathan Elasmosaurus proportions, it would definitely be big enough to encircle the earth, and so big that an apocalypse from the sky spell would do bugger all to it.

Mulletmanalive
2011-01-25, 07:12 PM
I was working on stats for a fully fledged Linnorm based on a description from some Norse saga or another. It consisted of a Colossal 2 head with a selection of about 15 colossal [long] segments trailing after it. It could only move in increments of tail because of it's lack of fine control...

The hit points were calculated for the head and then for each of the segments seperately and these were treated rather like "tanks" from this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125737) idea; one died every time the players managed to "kill" one and the body contracted a little. Once it was out, the idea was that it was going to be practically confrontable.

The downside is that this was built for a setting where giant mechs with naval cannon are common and it was supposed to be a match for a whole fleet. Might require Epic characters to be able to oppose it and even then, you're probably best Magic Schoolbussing it...

Urpriest
2011-01-25, 09:59 PM
I don't want to play Magic School Bus, I want to play high level DnD.

Why not? Now I want a Magic School Bus RPG. That would be sweet!

Iamyourking
2011-01-25, 10:58 PM
I would suggest taking a look at the Immortal's Handbook, as its introduction deals heavily with extremely large monsters. Admittedly, the largest thing in it is 'only' half a mile long; but the size rules are applicable for anything up to the size of the universe.

Essentially:
You are automatically flatfooted if your movement speed is less than half the enemy's reach

A creatures Hit Dice can be determined by dividing its largest dimension measured in feet (either height or length) by 2. If either the creatures width or depth equals its height/length then Hit Dice will be two-thirds height/length. If both the creatures width and depth equal its height/length then Hit Dice will equal height/length.
For instance, let's say that giant rock creature is 2 miles tall, 1 mile wide, and half a mile deep (Standard humanoid proportions). As such it would have 5280 HD and be size Macro-Large, giving it a -1024 to attack and AC, -44 to Hide, a +44 to grapple, a carrying capacity 2,048 times greater than a medium creature of equal strength, and a movement rate of 960 feet per round (Assuming that it would be rather slow for its size).

Space for bipeds is equal to two-thirds its height, rounded up to the nearest multiple of five, while reach is height rounded down to the nearest multiple of five.
Said rock beast would occupy a space of 7,040 feet, which is 1,408 squares, and have a reach of 10,560 feet, which is 2,112 squares

To take into account the square-cube law, every creature's strength must increase by +15 per size category; with 5 of that being used purely to support its weight, just to give an impression of how much its strength would have to be lowered before it would collapse under its own weight.
The rock beast's size gives a boost of 110 to its Strength, a penalty of 22 to its Dexterity, to a minimum of 10, a boost of 44 to its Constitution, and a boost of 67 to its natural armor (Since it is made of minerals it adds its HD to this). It adds a further +12 from being made of stone, so it has a Strength score of 132.

Base damage for a natural attack is determined by type of attack and size of attacker, with modifiers for disproportionately large attacking implements.
Since the creature's fists appear to be the same size in proportion to its body as a regular human, no modifier is needed. As such, it is a simple matter to consult the table and see that the Slam of a macro-large sized monster does 20d10 damage and its stomp does 60d10.

There aren't any rules for calculating its Challenge Rating; but I'd peg it at about 500 since its just a (very) big dumb beatstick. Add special abilities and the like to taste.

NichG
2011-01-26, 02:50 AM
I would suggest taking a look at the Immortal's Handbook, as its introduction deals heavily with extremely large monsters. Admittedly, the largest thing in it is 'only' half a mile long; but the size rules are applicable for anything up to the size of the universe.


Immortals Handbook math is the worst part of those books. It really doesn't scale well for actual play. A lot of the abilities are flavorful and mechanically interesting, but when a party ends up fighting something like 5000HD D&D's math just breaks down. Even after size penalties, thats still a minimum of +1000 to hit, so you might as well just say 'it hits'. Sometimes its just as simple as 'hey look it has Blasphemy!' or 'hey look its abilities' saves are based on 1/2 HD!'. You end up getting things that are either trivial to kill by someone that has the correct trick or set of tricks, or will just wipe the floor with things.

I think the most sensible way to deal with creatures this size is to segment them. Treat each 5ft cube as a separate entity or something.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-26, 09:41 AM
Casting time of one day=Perfect Assassin fodder.

Assassins the size of landscapes are rarely a problem.

And hell, there's always quicken.

Eldan
2011-01-26, 09:44 AM
I agree with Fat Jose, the best way to do it isn't to assign it massive HP because frankly that is two easy (wizards see it as a joke) and boring. Turn the huge monster into a dungeon where they must fight off appendages, dodge trap like attacks, as well as face the difficulties in scaling such a beast. Then when they get to the "vulnerable" spot they whack until it dies. Then since your an evil DM just like you make them have to survive the massive monster collapsing and dying.

Also fun side quest, make them return to the corpse of the monster as a new dungeon!

So, basically, Shadow of the Colossus.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-26, 09:46 AM
For effects that cannot target the entire creature, it is reasonable to ajudicate that it affects as much of the creature as is in range.

So, a death spell that only can reach his foot does in fact kill his foot, but not the rest of him. Segmented hp is also fairly reasonable.

This allows interesting battles without just outright banning everything but hp damage, which is frankly kind of boring.

potatocubed
2011-01-26, 10:15 AM
Assassins the size of landscapes are rarely a problem.

I dunno - who's going to suspect a surprise attack from a hill?

Flickerdart
2011-01-26, 10:30 AM
I dunno - who's going to suspect a surprise attack from a hill?
Nobody walks in high-level play. :smalltongue:

I imagine that Disintegrate-spam should be sufficient to whittle the creature down cube after cube after cube. Saw off a few limbs that way and it'll fall down.

Czin
2011-01-26, 12:14 PM
Assassins the size of landscapes are rarely a problem.

And hell, there's always quicken.

Assassins serving said landscape sized monsters and/or the guys who unleashed said monster are a problem, and quicken doesn't work on spells with a casting time longer than a full round action. Plus, that con drain and Cha damage you take for casting the spell is absolutely brutal, and I don't think that many clerics (including the party cleric) would want to cast heal or restoration on you after using AFtS. AFtS really just falls under awesome but impractical, it's nifty as hell (and is a lot better than those crappy massive AoE epic spells like dire winter in the ELH in terms of damage) but it penalizes the caster massively.

potatocubed
2011-01-26, 01:13 PM
Nobody walks in high-level play. :smalltongue:

Even more surprising, then, when the hill flies up to get you. :smalltongue:

Magesmiley
2011-01-26, 01:27 PM
There was an adventure that one of my favorite DMs ran that was like this. But it was a walking castle / golem. So we could actually go inside of it and mess with the varrious parts. It wasn't so much that the thing itself was the monster but the guy controlling it wanted to take over the kingdom. We beat him, but the golem / castle / area thing almost ran over the city surrounding the royal palace. We were barely able to run it into the bay, causing tidal waves that still killed thousands and thousands of people. We felt helpless, but atleast it didn't unleash all that arcane enegery the BBEG stored into it to kill everyone. :smalleek:

I'm pretty sure that you're thinking of CM4 Earthshaker!

Its an old D&D module designed for high-level characters. The Earthshaker is a massive (like 1700' tall if I recall) machine run by a clan of gnomes. An evil villain manages to take control of it and the players have to try and stop it. While its not technically a creature, it might be a good inspiration for the kind of adventure that the original poster is trying to run if he can get ahold of a copy of it.

2xMachina
2011-01-26, 01:29 PM
Even more surprising, then, when the hill flies up to get you. :smalltongue:

Even more surprising, then, when the hill teleports in to get you. :smalltongue:

randomhero00
2011-01-26, 01:43 PM
I don't want to play Magic School Bus, I want to play high level DnD. What do you guys suggest for FIGHTING the monsters?

Then I'd say only critical hits count. In other words a really really good shot that actually makes it through all the skin and armor. But that makes for boring play. Unless you are the type that has a huge crit range.

PS there's some good advice (more mech related but still) in this thread I started awhile ago
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8648402#post8648402

Fearan
2011-01-26, 01:54 PM
I don't want to play Magic School Bus, I want to play high level DnD. What do you guys suggest for FIGHTING the monsters?
Two words. Ice Assassin

VirOath
2011-01-26, 01:56 PM
Nobody walks in high-level play. :smalltongue:

I imagine that Disintegrate-spam should be sufficient to whittle the creature down cube after cube after cube. Saw off a few limbs that way and it'll fall down.

It wouldn't fail it's save. Remember, it offers a fort save, and even if it's failed then it's only 2d6/CL. The size and area of the damage would be about the same as a paper cut.

I do recommend the highly suggested "Make a dungeon out of it", take Gears Of War 2, the giant worm, play it something similar.

Mordokai
2011-01-26, 02:04 PM
IIRC some of the Elder Evils in Elder Evils are very very big. Atropus for example is the moon (or maybe just as big as the moon, not sure). So if you can look at a copy of that it might give you some ideas of how to handle this kind of thing.

I believe Leviathan is actually quite a lot bigger than Atropus, at least if memory serves. The damn thing is said to be as big as entire Material plane.

2xMachina
2011-01-26, 02:06 PM
Vorpal weapon. Bam! The head slides off.

randomhero00
2011-01-26, 02:08 PM
Vorpal weapon. Bam! The head slides off.

Doesn't work against such big beings. They're always immune.

2xMachina
2011-01-26, 02:14 PM
Vorpal

This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.)

A Nat 20 (and confirm hit) always cut off the head. It's just the matter of them walking around headless and alive.

Czin
2011-01-26, 02:21 PM
I believe Leviathan is actually quite a lot bigger than Atropus, at least if memory serves. The damn thing is said to be as big as entire Material plane.

The primary planet =/= The whole of the material plane in the big three settings (Greyhawk, Faerun, and Eberron). In any case, the Leviathan is much longer than Atropus, Oerth is about 8,021.5 miles in diameter at the equator (incidentally making it slightly larger than the earth which is 7,926.41 at the equator). The Equator of the Earth is about 24,860.2 miles across (as in, if you went around the world and hugged the ground throughout the entire journey you would travel 24,860.2 miles, solid objects that may be in the way not included), so I'd say that Oerth's equator is about 25,000 miles across too. But it's somewhat obvious that the leviathan does not perfectly circle around Oerth at the equator, since there are continents in the way, so I'd say the leviathan's body snakes around these continents, probably adding a lot more length, so I would say that it's at the very least 28,000 miles long.

Meanwhile, Atropus who is only 700 miles in diameter, is completely and utterly dwarfed by the moon, which is 2160 miles in diameter. I think it would be fair to say that unless the leviathan was abnormally skinny, the Leviathan would dwarf the giant floating undead head in space. If the Leviathan's form is like a plesiosaur's (which it is) it would be able to stick it's head outside of the atmosphere by raising it's neck. And the Elder Evils book is not exaggerating in the slightest when it states that even the smallest movements the Leviathan makes would have devastating effects, something this big would be able to cause tsunamis by just blinking; never mind actually moving.

Czin
2011-01-26, 02:22 PM
A Nat 20 (and confirm hit) always cut off the head. It's just the matter of them walking around headless and alive.

Then you get hit by the falling head which instantly kills you and your party. Besides, I think most sane DMs would add a special clause rendering a medium creature's (or even a plain old colossal creature's) vorpal weapons ineffective against creatures of the scale that we are discussing.

2xMachina
2011-01-26, 02:26 PM
I posted that cause I thought the idea of a headless landscape monster walking around was hilarious

Not to mention, the gigantic head falling down from the sky.

Czin
2011-01-26, 02:31 PM
I posted that cause I thought the idea of a headless landscape monster walking around was hilarious

Not to mention, the gigantic head falling down from the sky.

A head that would impact the ground, and likely your party with a tremendous amount of force and probably kill them instantly, and that's before we even discuss the rest of the body. "Was crushed under the head of a slain monster" is not exactly the most dignified thing to have on one's tombstone.

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-26, 02:31 PM
Now I want to run a game all about fighting humongous monsters, especially since one of my players is a big Godzilla fan.

Probably wouldn't work; they aren't fans of the really high level part of the game.

Sipex
2011-01-26, 02:34 PM
I would allow vorpal weapons but with a caveat.

You have to be close enough to the creature's neck to cut it's head off. None of this crazy "I slash it's leg! 20! 20 confirmed! No head!"

2xMachina
2011-01-26, 02:34 PM
A head that would impact the ground, and likely your party with a tremendous amount of force and probably kill them instantly, and that's before we even discuss the rest of the body. "Was crushed under the head of a slain monster" is not exactly the most dignified thing to have on one's tombstone.

Still hilarious. Head falls, everyone dies!

Czin
2011-01-26, 02:39 PM
I would allow vorpal weapons but with a caveat.

You have to be close enough to the creature's neck to cut it's head off. None of this crazy "I slash it's leg! 20! 20 confirmed! No head!"

I have difficulty imagining how a 4 foot long blade decapitates something whose neck is 40 feet thick.

Eldariel
2011-01-26, 02:42 PM
DM: "So, a five-headed hydra rises up out of the Nameless Abyss."
Players: "...just five heads? That's like what, 5 HD tops?"
DM: "It also rises all the way to the stratosphere."
Players: :smalleek:

Yeah, Progenitus. Horrible divine hydra that, as per Magic:The Gathering mechanics, is almost impossible to kill.

Just invoke O-Kagachi (http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2953/finaljudgment.jpg):
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5728/finaljudgmentcard.jpg

randomhero00
2011-01-26, 02:44 PM
I have difficulty imagining how a 4 foot long blade decapitates something whose neck is 40 feet thick.

+1

All really big creatures have always been immune to vorpal.

Sipex
2011-01-26, 02:56 PM
Have they? I wasn't aware of this.

I was thinking something like a very 'cinematic-style' decapitation where your guy shoves his blade in and pulls off a nifty trick to swing the entire circumference of the beast's neck.

Might require an acrobatics check too then.

Czin
2011-01-26, 03:01 PM
Have they? I wasn't aware of this.

I was thinking something like a very 'cinematic-style' decapitation where your guy shoves his blade in and pulls off a nifty trick to swing the entire circumference of the beast's neck.

Might require an acrobatics check too then.

You'd at best slice through 8 feet of flesh/bone/skin/crystal/whatever the hell composes the neck. So you'd still need something like a storm giant's greatsword (21 feet long, since a greatsword's blade is typically about as long as the weilder is tall) to pull off that trick. For a straight up decapitation...well, you better start praying that those Int 6 mountain giants over there are smart enough to make you a greatsword.

randomhero00
2011-01-26, 03:03 PM
Have they? I wasn't aware of this.

I was thinking something like a very 'cinematic-style' decapitation where your guy shoves his blade in and pulls off a nifty trick to swing the entire circumference of the beast's neck.

Might require an acrobatics check too then.

If you really wanted to allow vorpal i'd suggest roleplaying it out as severing his spinal cord (not actually fully beheading).

flabort
2011-01-26, 03:14 PM
The sword's magic activates, pulling the character up into the sky as the blade rockets towards the enemy's neck. Once the sword reaches neck level, it makes a humongous slash, that doesn't even touch the beast. However, the forty foot laser-blade that shoots out of the sword does. Boom, instant decapitation, Head falls, party dies, fighter lands on the head, the sole survivor (if he can soak the fall damage).

Sipex
2011-01-26, 03:23 PM
If you really wanted to allow vorpal i'd suggest roleplaying it out as severing his spinal cord (not actually fully beheading).

Good point.

PersonMan
2011-01-26, 03:25 PM
The sword's magic activates, pulling the character up into the sky as the blade rockets towards the enemy's neck. Once the sword reaches neck level, it makes a humongous slash, that doesn't even touch the beast. However, the forty foot laser-blade that shoots out of the sword does. Boom, instant decapitation, Head falls, party dies, fighter lands on the head, the sole survivor (if he can soak the fall damage).

If this is how it worked by RAW, I'd think that "Vorpal" is just a word in an old, forgotten language for "absolutely absurdly awesome".

VirOath
2011-01-26, 03:48 PM
The sword's magic activates, pulling the character up into the sky as the blade rockets towards the enemy's neck. Once the sword reaches neck level, it makes a humongous slash, that doesn't even touch the beast. However, the forty foot laser-blade that shoots out of the sword does. Boom, instant decapitation, Head falls, party dies, fighter lands on the head, the sole survivor (if he can soak the fall damage).

At that level, not a problem. Since falling damage caps at 20d6 for distance. It's the weight portion of the equation that isn't restricted.

AslanCross
2011-01-26, 07:47 PM
Just invoke O-Kagachi (http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2953/finaljudgment.jpg):
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5728/finaljudgmentcard.jpg

The solution to a horrible elder evil hydra: Another horrible elder evil hydra.

(I found it kind of ridiculous how they plotkilled O-Kagachi in the Saviors of Kamigawa book, though. :smallsigh:)

Analytica
2011-01-26, 08:04 PM
I think there should be epic ToB maneuvers for this type of battle. I picture it looking like in the Slayers anime, where the Big Dumb Swordsman with the Very Magic Sword basically leaps 50-100 metres into the air to slice of parts of the monster that are wider than the edge of the blade, then lands with no trouble. If I knew the ToB system better, I would try to develop something like that... swordcuts that severs mountaintops or splits city walls, that kind of thing, combined with impossible mobility like running up along the side of the Godzilla-thing to reach its neck...

AslanCross
2011-01-26, 08:25 PM
I think there should be epic ToB maneuvers for this type of battle. I picture it looking like in the Slayers anime, where the Big Dumb Swordsman with the Very Magic Sword basically leaps 50-100 metres into the air to slice of parts of the monster that are wider than the edge of the blade, then lands with no trouble. If I knew the ToB system better, I would try to develop something like that... swordcuts that severs mountaintops or splits city walls, that kind of thing, combined with impossible mobility like running up along the side of the Godzilla-thing to reach its neck...

One actually need not look to anime for that.

Western legends have examples of cutting mountains down (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caladbolg) and other ridiculous things:


Dying Moment Of Awesome: First of all, none of the Saracens killed Roland. He died of an aneurysm, because he blew his horn too hard when sounding a summons to Charlemagne, and his brains started to leak out his ears. Then, after mourning over his fallen comrades, Roland staggers towards Spain, tries to destroy his holy sword Durandal and ends up carving a huge cleft in the canyon wall, kills one last Saracen by smashing his horn into his head, then dies with his face turned towards Spain, and the angels Michael and Gabriel come personally to escort him to heaven.

Heck, the Song of Roland one sounds like Fist of the North Star.

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-26, 09:04 PM
Took a stab at a Titanic template:

For the Truly Massive:

Titanic:

This template can be applied to any creature that is larger than Colossal size.

The creature gains the following traits/qualities:

Oblivious:
A creature of this size is so large it doesn't tend to notice smaller creatures at all. It does not get an automatic spot or listen check to notice any creature 5 or more size categories smaller than it, even after being attacked.

Hide:
A creature of this size has skin so thick that it blocks line of effect to the creature. In order to effect it in any way, its hide must first be breached.

A creature's hide is considered to be an unattended object (unless the creature has become aware of its enemies, see oblivious), with HP and hardness appropriate to whatever material most closely matches the creature's hide (usually leather, stone, or iron).

Its hide is one foot thick per size category above colossal. Each 5' square of the creature's space must be breached seperately, but in order to effect the creature, you only need to be able to attack a single 5' square that is breached.

Any fast healing or regeneration or magical healing the creature receives applies to the creature's real HP first, then any leftover is divided as evenly as possible between any damaged sections of hide.

Augmented Health:
The creature gains additional HPs equal to its size categories above colossal, times its constitution score.

In addition, any regeneration, fast healing, or magical healing the creature possesses or receives is doubled (in the usual D&D sense of x2 + x2 = x3) for every size category above colossal.

Massive Strikes:
The creature is not able to gain the benefit from sneak attack or critical hits against creatures 5 or more size categories smaller than it. Instead, it always deals double damage against such foes per size category above colossal (doubled in the D&D fashion of x2+x2 = x3).

Weak Point:
The creature may have one or more weak points, such as the eyes. These weak points have HP and hardness equal to its hide, but in addition to breaching its hide and thus allowing the creature itself to be targetted, there is an additional benefit appropriate to the weak point (for example, blindness for the eyes).

The creature instinctively protects its weak points when they are attacked, so they are always considered 'attended', even if the creature hasn't noticed its enemies yet.

Czin
2011-01-26, 09:08 PM
Took a stab at a Titanic template:

For the Truly Massive:

Titanic:

This template can be applied to any creature that is larger than Colossal size.

The creature gains the following traits/qualities:

Oblivious: A creature of this size is so large it doesn't tend to notice smaller creatures at all. It does not get an automatic spot or listen check to notice any creature 5 or more size categories smaller than it, even after being attacked.

Hide:
A creature of this size has skin so thick that it blocks line of effect to the creature. In order to effect it in any way, its hide must first be breached.

A creature's hide is considered to be an unattended object (unless the creature has become aware of its enemies, see oblivious), with HP and hardness appropriate to whatever material most closely matches the creature's hide (usually leather, stone, or iron).

Its hide is one foot thick per size category above colossal. Each 5' square of the creature's space must be breached seperately, but in order to effect the creature, you only need to be able to attack a single 5' square that is breached.

Any fast healing or regeneration or magical healing the creature receives applies to the creature's real HP first, then any leftover is divided as evenly as possible between any damaged sections of hide.

Augmented Health:
The creature gains additional HPs equal to its size categories above colossal, times its constitution score.

In addition, any regeneration, fast healing, or magical healing the creature possesses or receives is doubled (in the usual D&D sense of x2 + x2 = x3) for every size category above colossal.

Massive Strikes:
The creature is not able to gain the benefit from sneak attack or critical hits against creatures 5 or more size categories smaller than it. Instead, it always deals double damage against such foes.

Only double damage? :smalltongue:

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-26, 09:10 PM
That was supposed to be double per size category above colossal. Corrected.

I am going to try running this.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185032

NichG
2011-01-26, 11:53 PM
Speaking of ToB: Death Mark + that Leviathan blows the Locate City bomb out of the water (assuming you logically extend the table). Fireball twice the size of the creature's reach...

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-27, 12:14 AM
So I'm thinking all the 'per size category above colossal' should be 'per 5 size categories above colossal' instead.

2xMachina
2011-01-27, 07:38 AM
Imagine this:

While fighting gigantic hydra
Player 1: Yes, Nat 20!, Confirm crit! :smallbiggrin:
DM: That's a Vorpal weapon right? It losses a head
Player 1: Yay!
DM: You notice your surrounding is darkening. :smallamused:
Player 1: Huh? Why? I look up. :smallconfused:
DM: You see something up there, and it's getting bigger.
Player 1: Err... Oh, crap.
Player 2: :smalleek: I teleport us out.

Later,
DM: Two heads regrow from the stump, as you can't reach the stump to deal damage to it.
Player: Crap!
Player 2: Don't you dare use your Vorpal weapon anymore! :smallmad:

Even later,
DM: It dies.
Players: Yay!
DM: You notice your surrounding is darkening. :smalltongue:
Players: OOC (NOOOooooo!) :smalleek:
IC: We look up.
DM: You see the whole body falling down. In your direction. :smallcool:

Mordokai
2011-01-27, 07:48 AM
Took a stab at a Titanic template:

For the Truly Massive:

Titanic:

When I first read this, I somehow envisioned a creature encased in Titanic, the ship :smallbiggrin:

Myth
2011-01-27, 10:04 AM
Celerity > Quickened Teleport > Irresistible Dance as Su (you're an Arcane Dweomerkeeper). No save, no SR. Much laughing.

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-27, 10:20 AM
It occurs to me, something to keep in mind when trying to stat one of these monstrosities is that the apparent size of the creature is very likely double its actual space.

For example, a Colossal dragon has a space of 30', and a reach of 20' (30' with its bite). Which means its limbs can stretch out 20'-30' past its space, so it is much bigger than just its space.

Another example: I calculated Progenitus as appearing 40,000 ft tall (based on the average height of clouds). So it's space is probably only 20-30,000ft.

Sipex
2011-01-27, 10:24 AM
When you're fighting something the size of a mountain you tend to care a lot less about space, flanking and whether or not it's in the optimal position for an area attack. Your battle tactics whittle down to "I am aiming at it" or "I am not aiming at it."

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-27, 10:38 AM
I'm more referring to building it, determining its size modifiers to things (a system which breaks much past Colossal).

Sipex
2011-01-27, 10:46 AM
Ah, DM perspective.

I run 4th so I'm not 100% familiar with 3.5 in this regard but it sounds pretty generic and the general consensus seems to be 'wing it' so I can still contribute.

Myth
2011-01-27, 11:05 AM
Ah, DM perspective.

I run 4th so I'm not 100% familiar with 3.5 in this regard but it sounds pretty generic and the general consensus seems to be 'wing it' so I can still contribute.

You seem to be the only regular (that i've noticed) who feels comfortable explaining how it's done in 4E. How is it done in 4E then? I mean, the whole giant huge monster scenario. How are the players expected to take it down if they don't have the same magical oomph?

Sipex
2011-01-27, 11:08 AM
The few enemies who exist near that size have it done with a bag of hitpoints and possibly some mild DR :(

4e relies on the hope that you're not sending your players against landmass sized enemies until epic tier where they're expected to have the abilities necessary to battle gods so you can sort of roll it off as 'Oh, you're just so awesome now.'

I don't really agree with this philosophy which is kind of why I'm here, a lot of the ideas being thrown around can be adjusted to any system.

edit: I will also add the caveat that, at least in my experiece, 4e doesn't have any pre-printed monsters who are much larger than the a Titan or Terrasque. I'm still a bit iffy about monsters that big being taken out by medium sized PCs but it's at least plausible when you compare it to monsters of these magnitudes.

Myth
2011-01-27, 11:17 AM
In 3.5 I'd just say "magic, magic, magic" and solve the problem (if I were a PC). Does 4E actually have Epic levels equivalent to those of 3.5? Any equivalent to Epic Spellcasting? That's always good for some fun.

Sipex
2011-01-27, 11:22 AM
4e has a default of 30 levels instead of the 20 which 3.5 has. Thing is, 4e's levels already include Epic play (each tier of 10 levels is called something different, level 21-30 is Epic).

Unfortunately no, we don't have anything akin to the Epic Spellcasting system 3.5 has, Epic rules have been re-worked in 4e. How it works is every class has level 21-30 powers/rituals/feats they can use but on top of that when you hit level 21 you are given a choice of (now multiple) Epic Destinies which are sort of like Templates from 3.5 if I understand it right. You apply this destiny to your character which priovides a lot of bonuses (destinies are usually available to all classes but some are limited to a certain power source, like divine) both passive and active.

Doug Lampert
2011-01-27, 11:35 AM
In 3.5 I'd just say "magic, magic, magic" and solve the problem (if I were a PC). Does 4E actually have Epic levels equivalent to those of 3.5? Any equivalent to Epic Spellcasting? That's always good for some fun.

There's NOTHING in 4th ed that approaches even vaguely the utterly stupidly borked broken mass of suck which is 3.x Epic Magic.

PCs are expected to go from level 1-30, and 21-30 are considered Epic, but that epic is built into the system rather than being obviously horribly broken (and since 4th ed gets errata the less obvious but still broken bits tend to get fixed).

That said, the 4th ed power curve is MUCH flatter than 3rd, and the ballance is MUCH MUCH MUCH better (all 4th ed classes are tier 3 by 3rd ed standards).

If we assume the respective DMGs are correct (Hah!) then:

In 3.x an ordinary townsman is CR 1/2, and after level 2 every 2 levels doubles power. Thus a level 20 PC is worth about 512 level 2 PCs, 1024 level 1 PCs, and 2048 ordinary guys.

In 4th ed an ordinary townsman is a level 2 minion, a level 1 PC is worth roughly 10 of them in a fight (5 is patrol, and probably overrated at that). But after that it is +4 levels doubles power. And thus a level 30 PC is worth about 128 level 2 PCs, 160 level 1 PCs, or 1600 ordinary guys.

Scaled to 3rd edition, using the "townsman standard"
4th ed level 1 ~= level 3 or 4 in third ed.
4th ed level 5 ~= level 5 or 6 in third ed.
4th ed level 9 ~= level 7 or 8 in third ed.
...
4th ed level 21 (nominally epic) ~= level 13 or 14 in third ed.
4th ed level 30 (capstone) ~= level 18 in third ed.

So no, 4th edition doesn't have anything reasonably comparable to 3rd ed epic. It tops out at about the power level of a moderately optimized level 18 bard in 3rd edition.

Edit: Something wrong with my math, it should be closer to level 19 at the top end. But the basic still holds, you reach a peak which is comparable to the highest powered non-broken characters in 3rd ed, but not 3rd ed epic.

DougL

Sipex
2011-01-27, 11:42 AM
While Doug is being a bit harsh his math is pretty solid and does a good job of laying out the power level differences across levels.

Myth
2011-01-27, 11:54 AM
Nobody is arguing that Epic spells are broken :smallsmile: But they tend to do the job whenver mountain-sized-monster-slaying is concerned.

That or Irresistible Dance as I said previously.

Czin
2011-01-27, 01:31 PM
Nobody is arguing that Epic spells are broken :smallsmile: But they tend to do the job whenver mountain-sized-monster-slaying is concerned.

That or Irresistible Dance as I said previously.

I think that Irresistible Dance counts as a mind affecting...effect, so if it's immune to mind effects then...well, that's what plan B is for no?

Orbin Dules
2011-01-27, 02:07 PM
I have one word with how to deal with Progenitus: Pongify.

TurtleKing
2011-01-27, 02:56 PM
If something like Progenitus was sent at me in one homebrew setting I have played in my Thigardo Prinny Deity of Legend would have something to say about it. His notable exploits are: killing another deity, stopping a powerful Elf Psion from undoing time, raising a layer of Abyss to Celestia purifing it in the process, helping to spirit away the last of a dying race to rehabilitate and recover, and go to war against a greater deity as a demigod and holding his own.

Gideon Falcon
2011-01-27, 06:38 PM
So, the first one is a Magic: the gathering monster, so what are the other 3?

2xMachina
2011-01-28, 12:05 AM
So, the first one is a Magic: the gathering monster, so what are the other 3?

Yes, I'm also interested in knowing what they are.

Zombimode
2011-01-28, 03:10 AM
I have one word with how to deal with Progenitus: Pongify.

Pongify: Destroy target creature. [...]

Try again.

TurtleKing
2011-01-28, 05:05 AM
I'm curious in how would you deal with some of the Elder Evils in a modern/futuristic campaign. Would it be any different in where you have space ships fire at Atropus? What about the Leviathan? The Hulks of Zoretha almost sound like they should be or at least in a Spelljammer setting.

While we are at this what Elder Evils and the like would you create. If need be can create another thread for this topic. For instance one of mine would be an corrupted positive energy rampant growth version of Atropus originating from the Positive Energy Plane. Basically Twisted Life and Apalling Fecundity signs together for this one.

Czin
2011-01-28, 05:31 AM
I'm curious in how would you deal with some of the Elder Evils in a modern/futuristic campaign. Would it be any different in where you have space ships fire at Atropus? What about the Leviathan? The Hulks of Zoretha almost sound like they should be or at least in a Spelljammer setting.

While we are at this what Elder Evils and the like would you create. If need be can create another thread for this topic. For instance one of mine would be an corrupted positive energy rampant growth version of Atropus originating from the Positive Energy Plane. Basically Twisted Life and Apalling Fecundity signs together for this one.

I think that you could destroy Atropus with spaceship fire since he's far away from any innocents, but you wouldn't be able to destroy the Leviathan without sterilizing your own planet, and if you don't hit it hard enough; it will just wake up and destroy your planet any way.

The Hulks of Zoretha are just a small group of colonists for their species. So in a spell jammer setting you could fight armies of the Hulks of Zoretha who presumably live on well... Zoretha.

Any way I always thought that Ragnorra was the positive energy version of Atropus, by the overwhelming stage of her sign the end result is largely the same; everyone who dies rises again as a monster though Ragnorra's sign raises people as Lovecraftian Abominations instead of Necromancer Zombies while Atropus's sign raises everything that was previously dead as long as the remains were somewhat usable (sucks to be a reanimated fossil encased in 1000 feet of solid rock.)

TurtleKing
2011-01-28, 05:40 AM
Oh had not read that far yet in the book yet about Ragnorra.

For my campaign setting being a Grand Tippyverse I could see the Leviathan being a denizen of the Elemental Plane of Water using one of the oceans as its portal to come through. It ends up swallowing whole one of the many moons orbiting around the planet. The planet is about the size of Jupiter so the overall scale is in theory kept. Considering the Leviathan can encircle the planet this means it is math...math...math....LONG. Likely I will have the Leviathan just orbit the planet through this best way to show off its size.

FelixG
2011-01-28, 06:54 AM
Oh had not read that far yet in the book yet about Ragnorra.

For my campaign setting being a Grand Tippyverse I could see the Leviathan being a denizen of the Elemental Plane of Water using one of the oceans as its portal to come through. It ends up swallowing whole one of the many moons orbiting around the planet. The planet is about the size of Jupiter so the overall scale is in theory kept. Considering the Leviathan can encircle the planet this means it is math...math...math....LONG. Likely I will have the Leviathan just orbit the planet through this best way to show off its size.

Have the Laviathin attack Atropis :smallbiggrin:

Czin
2011-01-28, 07:19 AM
Have the Laviathin attack Atropis :smallbiggrin:

It's genius, the Leviathan would crush Atropus between it's jaws, then it would choke to death on the crunched up pieces!

PersonMan
2011-01-28, 08:16 AM
(sucks to be a reanimated fossil encased in 1000 feet of solid rock.)

Hmmm...Does it say that the undead become re-dead once Atropus is gone? Otherwise, that could be an interesting plot hook..."Thousands of years ago, a giant undead head nearly killed everyone. Now a horde of fossils he reanimated are digging themselves up from the earth!"

Czin
2011-01-28, 08:19 AM
Hmmm...Does it say that the undead become re-dead once Atropus is gone? Otherwise, that could be an interesting plot hook..."Thousands of years ago, a giant undead head nearly killed everyone. Now a horde of fossils he reanimated are digging themselves up from the earth!"

If the aspect of Atropus is slain (thus forcing Atropus to retreat) all undead animated by Atropus across the universe collapse, lifeless. If he leaves of his own accord, they remain animated.

Slipperychicken
2011-01-28, 08:46 AM
Am I missing something, or wouldn't these bigger-than-planet/moon-sized creatures just need to use one or two of the ~100s of feats they'd get from their extreme number of levels to get Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered?

Then they could burn standard actions to demoralize once they realized the PCs weren't dying from the default death laser/bite/claw/slam routine (might only need one or two of their limb/pieces seeing as you gave each one different initiatives and all), and use the +9,004 intimidate modifier from their (absurd) size to keep the PCs cowering for the whole fight while Mr. Planet Eater does whatever he does with his remaining actions/unused limbs to slap them silly. You could fluff it as the PCs being so scared of this thing that they spend the whole combat sh**ing themselves rather than taking actions.

Unless, of course, these PCs got immunity to fear/mind affecting... Which they really should have done a long time ago

pilvento
2011-01-28, 09:11 AM
U can also try to play it in a more "cinematic way" (refering to videogames as most of you did) instead of a normal encounter where most of thwer skills can be kinda useles since this mosnters (i think) can tear a terraske apart. make them, clim, jump, run over the monsters body to dodge atacks like bites or tail sweeps, the can also make ref saving trows, and use their AC from time to time for more targeted attaks like rays or if ur monster can trow spikes. then as they reach diferent parts of the monster they can damage its weak spots. in the end play a normal enconter in the table vs the main head and 2 arms...

Knaight
2011-01-28, 10:18 AM
Given how big these really are, restricting normal weaponry entirely is fair, as with normal spells. Situations like these are examples of where one would bring in extremely over-sized siege weaponry, relativistic kill weaponry, and other such. By the time medium sized creatures are fighting these, its needs to be that epic. At the very lowest end, something akin to mining tunnels through mountains needs to be employed.

Benejeseret
2011-01-28, 10:22 AM
+1 Cookie of Valour to whoever can explain the source of those other pics. I really like the mountain one and would like to know where it's from.


Likewise, does anyone else have similar massive monsters pics. They are inspiring and I'd love to have more.

Czin
2011-01-28, 11:35 AM
+1 Cookie of Valour to whoever can explain the source of those other pics. I really like the mountain one and would like to know where it's from.


Likewise, does anyone else have similar massive monsters pics. They are inspiring and I'd love to have more.

In response to the bolded part I shall provide you with this.

http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2055/1152935647620xc2.jpg
An Warlord Class Titan of the Imperium of Man.

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs36/i/2009/330/0/d/fenrir_fenris_by_ArtisticCrusade.jpg
Fenris, son of Loki and destined killer of odin. For comparison a longship is usually 50-100 feet long.

http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l390/hikarinet/37-2.jpg
Jormungandr, the world serpent.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1wa0nVG2_8E/TPbRp94K_2I/AAAAAAAAAvI/Hhv9RpRRMZs/s1600/leviathan.jpg
Spoilered image is a picture of a decidedly lovecraftian interpretation of the Leviathan.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100510171505/howtotrainyourdragon/images/8/87/Zz0d02f6ff.jpg
The unnamed giant dragon from how to train your dragon.