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Drakevarg
2011-01-25, 10:34 AM
...you have too much disposable income.

Alright, to the point: I'm setting up a low-magic campaign, and we're about halfway through CharGen (I'm the only one in the group who can do CharGen off the top of their head, so I'm pretty much walking everyone throught it. Add to that a character questionnare to make them actually think of who they're playing, and it goes pretty damn slow). But, an issue has already become apparent:

This setting has almost no magic items, alchemical doodads, or other trappings that make up the bulk of most player's expenses. At the same time, I've been leaving them with the same standard WBL. With nothing to spend it on, this results in such ridiculous extravegances as "The Bacon Wagon."

The Bacon Wagon is a pretty simple carrige-and-cart setup pulled by two light horses. It's carrying 100 pounds of bacon and twice that in salt (as preservatives). Why did they buy this? Because they bloody well can.

Now, I have no inherent problem with them buying ridiculous things. It's just that their supposed position in society really doesn't warrant that much disposable income. While I won't be an ass and take all of their stuff this time around, I'd like to minimize future occurances. The logical course of action would be to reduce the WBL for future characters. And there WILL be future characters, as I'm sure those of you who have read my threads before know.

So, my question to the Playground is: in a setting functionally devoid of magic items, alchemical equipment, and similar gear, what would be a more appropriate WBL? The players are starting at level 3, which in this setting is equivalent to the average professional soldier.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-25, 10:45 AM
Assuming you've already compensated for the math problems that always rear their heads in low-magic, you could probably get away with NPC WBL.

Urpriest
2011-01-25, 10:49 AM
There's essentially nothing you would buy with WBL in a low-magic setting. NPC WBL might work for level 3, but it would get pretty ridiculous after that. I'd say don't even use a WBL table. There's no reason for characters in a low magic setting to get more wealthy as they level. Give them wages appropriate to the tasks they perform and the monsters they kill. There are rules for mercenaries in, I believe, the DMG II, which might give some idea of what appropriate wages for higher level characters would be.

Drakevarg
2011-01-25, 10:50 AM
Assuming you've already compensated for the math problems that always rear their heads in low-magic, you could probably get away with NPC WBL.

Actually, looking at the two lists, I've been inadvertantly giving my PCs NPC WBL anyway. But since it's only a 200gp difference at 3rd level, it doesn't hurt too badly in a normal setting and solves nothing in this setting.

As for the math-y problems, what do you mean, other than the whole bit with what should be an easy encounter being made nigh-impossible because the system assumes you can shoot fire out out your ass by then? That part is solved by having supernatural opponents being as rare as supernatural items.


There's essentially nothing you would buy with WBL in a low-magic setting. NPC WBL might work for level 3, but it would get pretty ridiculous after that. I'd say don't even use a WBL table. There's no reason for characters in a low magic setting to get more wealthy as they level. Give them wages appropriate to the tasks they perform and the monsters they kill. There are rules for mercenaries in, I believe, the DMG II, which might give some idea of what appropriate wages for higher level characters would be.

Unfortunately, I don't own DMG II. As for WBL, I only ever use it during CharGen. Everything from that point on is simply whatever seemed an appropriate paycheck for the task at hand.

MickJay
2011-01-25, 10:54 AM
Let them buy/invest in things that are status symbols, or long term investments. Let them buy land, or allow them to organize settlement of unclaimed land (both allow for various plot hooks). Let them buy titles, with alloted castle and problems. Let them build their own fortress. Let them build the most lavish temple the world has seen (and possibly even reward them for that with the Deity's favour). Let them build a ridiculously large dungeon, and stash whatever funds they have left at the end of it. Inviting a dragon to sleep on their loot is optional. Let them build (and fill with artwork) the most prestigious art gallery in the largest country's capital. Let them start some organization, a school, or spy network. Or, if they don't fancy large scale investments, allow them to gold plate all of their equipment. Let them stud their armors with gems. They can also donate the money to some just cause, for a massive reputation boost and possibly a debt of gratitude.

Edit: since they're still low level, let them just stash the money in some bank, for a small interest.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-25, 10:55 AM
Actually, looking at the two lists, I've been inadvertantly giving my PCs NPC WBL anyway. But since it's only a 200gp difference at 3rd level, it doesn't hurt too badly in a normal setting and solves nothing in this setting.

As for the math-y problems, what do you mean, other than the whole bit with what should be an easy encounter being made nigh-impossible because the system assumes you can shoot fire out out your ass by then? That part is solved by having supernatural opponents being as rare as supernatural items.

Well, shooting fire out your ass, yes, but even mundane high-level monsters are calculated assuming the players will be sporting appropriate +whatever bonuses to their stats/weapons.


Let them buy/invest in things that are status symbols, or long term investments. Let them buy land, or allow them to organize settlement of unclaimed land (both allow for various plot hooks). Let them buy titles, with alloted castle and problems. Let them build their own fortress. Let them build the most lavish temple the world has seen (and possibly even reward them for that with the Deity's favour). Let them build a ridiculously large dungeon, and stash whatever funds they have left at the end of it. Inviting a dragon to sleep on their loot is optional. Let them build (and fill with artwork) the most prestigious art gallery in the largest country's capital. Let them start some organization, a school, or spy network. Or, if they don't fancy large scale investments, allow them to gold plate all of their equipment. Let them stud their armors with gems. They can also donate the money to some just cause, for a massive reputation boost and possibly a debt of gratitude.

Edit: since they're still low level, let them just stash the money in some bank, for a small interest.

This, on the other hand, might be a good idea. Unless you keep them in barely enough cash to be fed/clothed/repaired, they will be building up a significant surplus. Make sure they have RP-related money sinks to take advantage of if they want, and they'll love you.

Radar
2011-01-25, 10:55 AM
Without magical items, there is little they can do with all the money, so it's kind of pointless to give that much out, unless your players want to impersonate Scrooge McDuck and swim in their gold coin pool.

On the other hand, there has to be incentive for PCs to risk their lives, so there has to be an alternative to wealth. Maybe make favors a valid form of payment - you do this work for me and I'll do a work for you, when you're in a pinch. Socially important quests would definetly rise PCs social status as well. It's not that tangible, but it does feel good to be respected in a given community - for one, town guards will greet you with "Welcome back to X, sir!" instead of "What do you have in that cart?". Being fameous and liked can be very helpful in many situations.

Coidzor
2011-01-25, 10:57 AM
Or have a small army of meatshield hirelings. As that's about the only mechanically beneficial use of gold if you went with that plan of having weeks of downtime necessary to heal from a single fight and then rushing them off to another fight immediately afterwards.

Drakevarg
2011-01-25, 10:58 AM
Let them buy/invest in things that are status symbols, or long term investments. Let them buy land, or allow them to organize settlement of unclaimed land (both allow for various plot hooks). Let them buy titles, with alloted castle and problems. Let them build their own fortress. Let them build the most lavish temple the world has seen (and possibly even reward them for that with the Deity's favour). Let them build a ridiculously large dungeon, and stash whatever funds they have left at the end of it. Inviting a dragon to sleep on their loot is optional. Let them build (and fill with artwork) the most prestigious art gallery in the largest country's capital. Let them start some organization, a school, or spy network. Or, if they don't fancy large scale investments, allow them to gold plate all of their equipment. Let them stud their armors with gems. They can also donate the money to some just cause, for a massive reputation boost and possibly a debt of gratitude.

...They're peasants. One of them is the son of a mildly well-off merchant.


Edit: since they're still low level, let them just stash the money in some bank, for a small interest.

They live in a crude expy of Viking-era Sweden. WHAT banks?


Well, shooting fire out your ass, yes, but even mundane high-level monsters are calculated assuming the players will be sporting appropriate +whatever bonuses to their stats/weapons.

Well, for +Whatever I've got the Mundane Weapon Modifier homebrew I came up with, but I intentionally don't want that stuff to be available to the rank-and-file.


This, on the other hand, might be a good idea. Unless you keep them in barely enough cash to be fed/clothed/repaired, they will be building up a significant surplus. Make sure they have RP-related money sinks to take advantage of if they want, and they'll love you.

The aforementioned merchant's son is trying to establish a criminal empire, so there's that.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-25, 11:00 AM
...They're peasants. One of them is the son of a mildly well-off merchant.



They live in a crude expy of Viking-era Sweden. WHAT banks?

They're peasants now. Assuming they don't all get eaten by your tentacled horrors from beyond time and space (or is that a different setting?), they'll eventually get famous and powerful. Right around the same time they'll have built their cash reserves to the levels that he's describing.

Coidzor
2011-01-25, 11:01 AM
Come to think of it, they might create the medieval banking system.
Edit: it would go hand in hand with inventing the concept of a criminal empire.


They live in a crude expy of Viking-era Sweden. WHAT banks?

The aforementioned merchant's son is trying to establish a criminal empire, so there's that.

So you're saying banks are too far-fetched but a criminal empire isn't? :smallconfused:

Drakevarg
2011-01-25, 11:02 AM
Or have a small army of meatshield hirelings. As that's about the only mechanically beneficial use of gold if you went with that plan of having weeks of downtime necessary to heal from a single fight and then rushing them off to another fight immediately afterwards.

They do have a roadie... (They're traveling musicians.)


They're peasants now. Assuming they don't all get eaten by your tentacled horrors from beyond time and space (or is that a different setting?), they'll eventually get famous and powerful. Right around the same time they'll have built their cash reserves to the levels that he's describing.

The tentacled horrors you're thinking of are from a different setting. This one has them too, but they're less common and FAR less prone to spontaneously popping into existance mid-fight.


So you're saying banks are too far-fetched but a criminal empire isn't? :smallconfused:

Depends on what you're thinking of when you say "criminal empire." I'm just referring to a network of assassins, smugglers, and general-ne'er-do-wellers.

Coidzor
2011-01-25, 11:04 AM
They do have a roadie... (They're traveling musicians.)

:smallconfused: I thought you just said they were mercenaries.

Wait. Merc bards!? I love it! :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2011-01-25, 11:05 AM
Then NPC wealth for chargen and plot-related payouts should be all you need, really.

Urpriest
2011-01-25, 11:14 AM
Unfortunately, I don't own DMG II. As for WBL, I only ever use it during CharGen. Everything from that point on is simply whatever seemed an appropriate paycheck for the task at hand.

Ok, that makes things simpler. You still don't need WBL per se. There are some mundane items that a character can't get at first level, so I'd go for following the WBL tables for character creation until the character runs out of relevant (key word relevant) mundane items to buy.

A brief calculation:

Let's take the mostly costly class to equip for combat, a mounted fighter. Let's give him all the best, since eventually a normal character can afford all the best. So he's got perhaps two masterwork melee weapons (lance and sword for example) for 600gp, a masterwork ranged weapon for perhaps as much as 800gp (mighty composite), masterwork full plate for 1650gp, a masterwork shield for 150gp, his 400gp warhorse, and its masterwork barding for perhaps as much as 6,000gp if he springs for full plate, which he probably wouldn't. Call it 3,000gp instead. This all adds up to just under 7,000gp. So I'd advise following WBL until 4th or 5th level, and them stopping there.

Yes, this is bacon wagon territory. It's important to remember that equipping a mounted knight was an expensive endeavor. The kind of people who had the resources to go about adventuring and being mercenaries were generally either the very top of the middle class or the cast off members of the nobility. These people could afford bacon wagons. As long as it doesn't go from bacon wagons to armies of mules I think you're safe.

Drakevarg
2011-01-25, 11:14 AM
:smallconfused: I thought you just said they were mercenaries.

Wait. Merc bards!? I love it! :smallbiggrin:

Did I? When?

Here's a quick rundown of the party so far:

Skoll, Warlock/Rogue. Nothing much on his background. Drummer for the band.
??, Warlock. Skoll's brother. No background yet. Probably the band's singer.
??, Rogue. No background yet. Bassist.
Nuance Pavot, Rogue. Son of a well-off merchant, commited patricide for inherentance. Turned his hometown into a wretched hive of scum and villainy and is trying to set up a franchise in ****ty-frozen-Viking-land. Violinist and manager for the band.
Rovhal Smartairoven, Warrior/Warlock. Ex-military, discovered his arcane potential by accidentally melting a fellow trainee's chest in a sparring match. Has a price on his head, since magi aren't well-liked in this setting. Burned his family inside their home when they disowned him for being a mage. Guitarist for the band.

DarthCyberWolf
2011-01-25, 11:16 AM
Give them a reason to get a ship and go out on the water. There's your money sink...:smallamused:

The Glyphstone
2011-01-25, 11:17 AM
3 Warlocks? Yeah, they'll be fairly powerful actually, and probably not terribly item-dependent either.

Keld Denar
2011-01-25, 11:19 AM
Dethklok? Sounds like it!

Also, I don't know how they aquired that much bacon, but this is what they need to do with it (http://gizmodo.com/5651532/bacon-kevin-bacon-statue).

Urpriest
2011-01-25, 11:20 AM
Wait this is a Viking society? In that case replace the horse stuff and full plate in my above argument with a 10,000gp longship. Makes my point a bit stronger even.

randomhero00
2011-01-25, 11:21 AM
You're players just aren't be creative/roleplay enough. I think you should keep standard WBL. But make them think how to use it. With no magic at all, that means storying wealth is a lot harder (because of no extra dimensional spaces to put it in) eventually they'll need to hire security guards. Cause a giant pile of money would be stolen a lot easier without magic. Plus you can't carry all that weight around with you. So eventually your players will need to diversify.

Then that might lead them to buy/creating a bank for everyone. With top security.

Then don't forget housing and such. Surely at least one of your players would love a castle fully staffed and defended with a ton of land surrounding it with serfs and peasants?

Basically no magic means medieval times with scary monsters. Think about what medieval nobles spent their money on, then go from there. For instance bribes might be a lot higher, especially a noble.

They could buy their way into becoming nobles and have some automatic clout over the land.

These are just off the top of my head. There is so much you can spend money on even if you aren't using magic. Just think realistic rather than optimized.

They'd have hobbies, like one might love raising and breaking horses. That'd likey need to be done on a ranch, + purebreeding horses = lots of gold to accomplish.

Oh and not to mention vehicles of all kinds. Nice coaches, ships, whatever is in your campaign.

Remind them that there characters are played like real people. They aren't rampaging, thieving, homicidal homeless dudes.

Pisha
2011-01-25, 11:30 AM
Um. What do people in the real world do when they have too much money?

In several of the systems I play in, there's an option to spend points to make your character wealthier than the norm. Most people prefer to buy cool powers instead, but there's always that one guy who understands that ridiculous amounts of cash is a power in itself. (To quote from Jekyll: "You can kill a lion. That's cool. We can buy the friggin' zoo.")

Money is power. Money is influence. Money is prestige. Money is entering a town and knowing that everyone admires your armor, your clothing, your horse. Money is never having to worry about whether he'll be ok with you marrying his daughter. Money is knowing what's happening halfway across the world, because you're financing a spy network. Money is buying out an entire marketplace, to trap a suspected traitor in a lie. Money is having the king ask you for a loan when he has to raise an army (and if you think that's an exaggeration, read history.)

Money can't do everything. But it can do a lot.

So yeah, lower the amount they get per level, at least at the lower levels. But being an adventurer means something. In a campaign with no magic, at higher levels it can mean ludicrous amounts of gold. And your players should take a minute to think about what that amount of gold can do - BESIDES buying bacon wagons!

Drakevarg
2011-01-25, 11:33 AM
Um. What do people in the real world do when they have too much money?

Buy bacon wagons, really. Only in real life it's a hummer filled with bacon instead.


(To quote from Jekyll: "You can kill a lion. That's cool. We can buy the friggin' zoo.")

I loved that show.


Dethklok? Sounds like it!

Quite. Skoll's player even compared Nuance Pavot to Charles Ofdensen.

Halloween Jack
2011-01-25, 12:03 PM
You can either find ways for them to spend their gold on kingdom building, or you can give them less liquid assets and more exotic treasure they can't spend.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-25, 12:12 PM
You're players just aren't be creative/roleplay enough. I think you should keep standard WBL. But make them think how to use it. With no magic at all, that means storying wealth is a lot harder (because of no extra dimensional spaces to put it in) eventually they'll need to hire security guards. Cause a giant pile of money would be stolen a lot easier without magic. Plus you can't carry all that weight around with you. So eventually your players will need to diversify.

Then that might lead them to buy/creating a bank for everyone. With top security.

Then don't forget housing and such. Surely at least one of your players would love a castle fully staffed and defended with a ton of land surrounding it with serfs and peasants?

Basically no magic means medieval times with scary monsters. Think about what medieval nobles spent their money on, then go from there. For instance bribes might be a lot higher, especially a noble.

They could buy their way into becoming nobles and have some automatic clout over the land.

These are just off the top of my head. There is so much you can spend money on even if you aren't using magic. Just think realistic rather than optimized.

They'd have hobbies, like one might love raising and breaking horses. That'd likey need to be done on a ranch, + purebreeding horses = lots of gold to accomplish.

Oh and not to mention vehicles of all kinds. Nice coaches, ships, whatever is in your campaign.

Remind them that there characters are played like real people. They aren't rampaging, thieving, homicidal homeless dudes.

No, they're people who like bacon. Which makes them awesome people.:smallcool:

randomhero00
2011-01-25, 12:19 PM
Oh ya, PS, just because there's low magic, doesn't mean there has to be *no* magic. For instance, have them find a relic (make it a major fight or puzzle and they attune with it) that does something sillyish like, make the ground fertile for a 100 miles around, year long. Which means food could be made 4x as much if they decided to be a kingdom. It might make them think outside the box.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-25, 12:49 PM
...you have too much disposable income.


Wrong. You then have 1600 strips of bacon, which is awesome.

There is no such thing as too much bacon.

gbprime
2011-01-25, 01:32 PM
One of the recent PC's I played was a peasant. (Started out as Expert, which was significantly underpowered, grew to a Fighter/Expert, then later retrained to Fighter/Factotum.) He spent time doing all the lowly things the Paladin needed done (horse grooming, etc, etc) but carried his own weight in combat.

When we got back from the first long excursion, the Paladin cut him in for a full share of the loot. (RP-wise, he was expecting his 2 silver pieces per day wage.) Suddenly faced with having 6,000 gp, this 4th level peasant did the only sensible thing. Upgrade his armor and weapons? Heck no. That's more money than his entire extended family saw in a decade!

No, with the Paladin's noble contacts, he bought over a hundred acres of land for his family, supplies for a new barn, more livestock, and a cash reserve to hire on some extra farmhands. His papa was a LAND OWNER now! :smallbiggrin:

Pisha
2011-01-25, 02:25 PM
No, with the Paladin's noble contacts, he bought over a hundred acres of land for his family, supplies for a new barn, more livestock, and a cash reserve to hire on some extra farmhands. His papa was a LAND OWNER now!

That is awesome.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-25, 02:34 PM
This setting has almost no magic items, alchemical doodads, or other trappings that make up the bulk of most player's expenses. At the same time, I've been leaving them with the same standard WBL. With nothing to spend it on, this results in such ridiculous extravegances as "The Bacon Wagon."


Why no Alchemy?

Tyndmyr
2011-01-25, 03:43 PM
Honestly, if I was fabulously rich, and had nothing massively expensive available to buy, I too would see people following me around with a cart of bacon, keeping me in a constantly supply of tasty bacon to be a very reasonable expenditure.

And, on a serious note, taking extra supplies with you is...prudent. Good quality supplies? More realistic than the people with giant piles of money who sleep in the muck and eat trail rations every day. I *love* seeing players get into purchasing things for more than mechanical value.

Asheram
2011-01-25, 04:53 PM
Let them buy/invest in things that are status symbols, or long term investments. Let them buy land, or allow them to organize settlement of unclaimed land (both allow for various plot hooks). Let them buy titles, with alloted castle and problems. Let them build their own fortress. Let them build the most lavish temple the world has seen (and possibly even reward them for that with the Deity's favour). Let them build a ridiculously large dungeon, and stash whatever funds they have left at the end of it. Inviting a dragon to sleep on their loot is optional. Let them build (and fill with artwork) the most prestigious art gallery in the largest country's capital. Let them start some organization, a school, or spy network. Or, if they don't fancy large scale investments, allow them to gold plate all of their equipment. Let them stud their armors with gems. They can also donate the money to some just cause, for a massive reputation boost and possibly a debt of gratitude.

Edit: since they're still low level, let them just stash the money in some bank, for a small interest.

When you've got too much disposable income on hand? That's when you break out the Stronghold Builders Guidebook

Drakevarg
2011-01-26, 08:08 AM
Honestly, if I was fabulously rich, and had nothing massively expensive available to buy, I too would see people following me around with a cart of bacon, keeping me in a constantly supply of tasty bacon to be a very reasonable expenditure.

See, the problem is that they're not supposed to be fabulously rich. By my setting's rules, they should have as much monetary value as your average soldier. Which should mean enough for weapons, armor, a small home, and maybe some livestock.


Why no Alchemy?

I never liked alchemy to begin with, for starters. And you shouldn't be able to buy napalm at the corner store.

Coidzor
2011-01-26, 09:15 AM
See, the problem is that they're not supposed to be fabulously rich. By my setting's rules, they should have as much monetary value as your average soldier. Which should mean enough for weapons, armor, a small home, and maybe some livestock.

Owned? Then, yeah, if they could liquify all of their assets perfectly (which is what WBL generally is) then yeah, they could afford a wagon filled with bacon. Homes are expensive.

Seems like you want to figure out a standard kit with some flex room for different armor and weapon choices and then tie the rest of their starting wealth into pre-existing things, like a stake in a trading vessel or their own boat that they're still partially paying off the benefactor who helped them acquire it or sommat.

bokodasu
2011-01-26, 09:24 AM
I never liked alchemy to begin with, for starters. And you shouldn't be able to buy napalm at the corner store.

Wait, what? I mean, yes you'd have to buy the ingredients and make it, but the corner store does sell them.

But if you want to insist that that's modern and shouldn't be in a D&D setting, google "greek fire" - they had flaming arrows in like 800BCE, and large-scale stuff by... 400BCE, iirc.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-26, 09:30 AM
See, the problem is that they're not supposed to be fabulously rich. By my setting's rules, they should have as much monetary value as your average soldier. Which should mean enough for weapons, armor, a small home, and maybe some livestock.


Bacon is hella cheaper than a home.



I never liked alchemy to begin with, for starters. And you shouldn't be able to buy napalm at the corner store.

Weapons being restricted and not available like any other product is a modern thing. Coupla hundred years ago, if you had the cash and wanted a warship fully kitted out with cannon, you just bought it. You could generally buy any weapon a government would use in the times that D&D was loosely based off. The exceptions are mostly things like enslaved people and occupied territories in war. It's not unreasonable to assume that weapons are fairly widely available in D&D.

Acanous
2011-01-26, 09:51 AM
Up the cost of things. In a non magic world, shipping is harder, there aren't as many schools, trades are more secretive, masterwork things are exponentially more expensive.

Follow the DMG guidelines for pricing of goods when trade is difficult or blocked. Double or triple item price will really eat gold, and gives the PCs a darned good reason to guard a merchant caravan.
If the merchants are being harassed by bandits, it'll drive prices up.

Drakevarg
2011-01-26, 11:19 AM
Bacon is hella cheaper than a home.

200 lbs of salt, which is what they're using to preserve all that bacon, costs exactly as much as the average peasant's home.


Weapons being restricted and not available like any other product is a modern thing. Coupla hundred years ago, if you had the cash and wanted a warship fully kitted out with cannon, you just bought it. You could generally buy any weapon a government would use in the times that D&D was loosely based off. The exceptions are mostly things like enslaved people and occupied territories in war. It's not unreasonable to assume that weapons are fairly widely available in D&D.

Either way, I find alchemy fundamentally aesthetically displeasing. Greek fire, maybe, if you had people who knew how to make it. And people who know how to make it will not be commonplace in a frozen backwater hellhole.

Similar matter with my mundane weapon modifiers. The average hoodlum should not be able to afford a masterwork sword, let alone one made out of titanium or thunderbolt iron.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-26, 11:25 AM
200 lbs of salt, which is what they're using to preserve all that bacon, costs exactly as much as the average peasant's home.


You don't need 200 lbs of salt to preserve 80 lbs of bacon.

D&D is, again, not the system you apparently want. It is designed with some fundamental differences in it from what you're looking for. Players in it are expected to amass a decent pile of wealth, and mundane items are...generally trivial in price, and the mundane item prices don't even always make sense together.

The logical thing for peasants in your campaign is not farming, but hacking ladders into 10 foot poles. If mundane wealth is relevant, then the horrible flaws in mundane equipment are also relevant.

grimbold
2011-01-26, 11:30 AM
don't give them acces to that much bacon
thats my suggestion

Drakevarg
2011-01-26, 11:31 AM
You don't need 200 lbs of salt to preserve 80 lbs of bacon.

100 pounds of bacon, but yeah. It was, I think, Pavot's player that estimated that to properly preserve meat you needed roughly twice it's weight in salt. *shrug* I'm not a professional butcher, so I haven't the foggiest idea.


D&D is, again, not the system you apparently want. It is designed with some fundamental differences in it from what you're looking for. Players in it are expected to amass a decent pile of wealth, and mundane items are...generally trivial in price, and the mundane item prices don't even always make sense together.

Hey, I have no problem with them amassing vast hordes of gold... later in the game. But right at the start of the game? They're nobodies, and should be paid as such.

Callista
2011-01-26, 11:32 AM
Don't reduce WBL; just reduce the supply. What village slaughters enough pigs to produce the bacon AND wants to sell it all to a random traveling merchant?

Let them buy their crazy things. If they want to play merchants, that's cool. It's a built-in plot hook--don't reject it just 'cause it's odd.

Drakevarg
2011-01-26, 11:36 AM
Don't reduce WBL; just reduce the supply. What village slaughters enough pigs to produce the bacon AND wants to sell it all to a random traveling merchant?

Let them buy their crazy things. If they want to play merchants, that's cool. It's a built-in plot hook--don't reject it just 'cause it's odd.

Travelling musicians, but yeah, you do have a point. That's like twenty pigs worth of bacon.

As for WBL, I think logically speaking it MUST be reduced, particularly since I determine NPC gear through the same venue. And the average soldier, the irrelevent faceless guard that says "Welcome to Corneria!" has no business owning a wagon, a carridge, two horses, 100 lbs of bacon and 1000g in barrels of salt.

shadow_archmagi
2011-01-26, 11:36 AM
Hey, I have no problem with them amassing vast hordes of gold... later in the game. But right at the start of the game? They're nobodies, and should be paid as such.

D&D economics are such that it'll be very hard to find examples of commodities that make no sense at their current price.

I remember a 1st ed game where a player wanted to buy a thousand burlap sacks and fill them with chickens using his starting wealth. Because a sword is worth more than a hundred chickens.

Drakevarg
2011-01-26, 11:39 AM
D&D economics are such that it'll be very hard to find examples of commodities that make no sense at their current price.

I remember a 1st ed game where a player wanted to buy a thousand burlap sacks and fill them with chickens using his starting wealth. Because a sword is worth more than a hundred chickens.

Um... either there's a typo or I missed something.

"It's very hard to find examples of commodities that make no sense at their current price."

"A player wanted to buy a hundred chickens because it was cheaper than a sword."

Tyndmyr
2011-01-26, 11:41 AM
100 pounds of bacon, but yeah. It was, I think, Pavot's player that estimated that to properly preserve meat you needed roughly twice it's weight in salt. *shrug* I'm not a professional butcher, so I haven't the foggiest idea.

Closest I know to bacon is salt pork, which'll be about 7 lbs of salt in the brine to preserve 100 lbs of meat. Exact number may vary slightly for bacon.

Carrying a pile of bacon isn't terribly unusual. Historical armies frequently carted preserved foodstuffs with them.


Hey, I have no problem with them amassing vast hordes of gold... later in the game. But right at the start of the game? They're nobodies, and should be paid as such.

This is an assumption of yours that is not shared by D&D. In D&D, level 3 is not bog standard. Level 1 is. Level 3 is not "nobodies", and gold is common throughout the game. People get giant piles of wealth fairly quickly, and at any level higher than first, the cost of mundane items is no longer a concern.


Travelling musicians, but yeah, you do have a point. That's like twenty pigs worth of bacon.

About three pigs, considering that only about 15% of the pig can be made into bacon. The average pig weighs substantially over 200 lbs.

So, you've got people with a cart, and preserved food equalling almost half a pig. And this is too much wealth?

Drakevarg
2011-01-26, 11:45 AM
This is an assumption of yours that is not shared by D&D. In D&D, level 3 is not bog standard. Level 1 is. Level 3 is not "nobodies", and gold is common throughout the game. People get giant piles of wealth fairly quickly, and at any level higher than first, the cost of mundane items is no longer a concern.

Which is why I'm trying to patch the problem to myself. And, as is the case for pretty much every "how do I circumvent this minor issue found in my homebrew" thread I've ever posted, asking me to buy and learn an entire new system is not a helpful suggestion. :smallsigh:


So, you've got people with a cart, and preserved food equalling almost half a pig. And this is too much wealth?

No, the barrels of salt that are worth as much as a house are too much wealth.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-26, 11:52 AM
It's a bit similar to when someone asks "How do I build a house with a dremel?"

The first response you'll get from anyone familiar with power tools is that you shouldn't do that with a Dremel. They're awesome tools, and you probably *could* if you really wanted to. Really, really wanted to. It's just not the right tool for the job, nor is it very close.

Using a different system certainly doesn't require buying a system, either. There are a great many free systems out there. As for learning...you have to do that anyway. Because learning standard D&D isn't doing it for the system you're trying to run. It'll almost certainly require less time to learn a system that portrays what you want, than to learn 3.5 and hack it into the system you want.

So, end result, they have a bunch of bacon. This strikes me as players who are A. having fun with it, and B. not out to break the game with their wealth. I don't see a problem with that.

Drakevarg
2011-01-26, 11:59 AM
So, end result, they have a bunch of bacon. This strikes me as players who are A. having fun with it, and B. not out to break the game with their wealth. I don't see a problem with that.

The problem is that all the NPCs get WBL, too. And any gear they're going to have any use for -- or would logically have access to -- at that point with cost considerably less than the ammount of money they have on hand. So, with the philosophy of keeping the PCs more or less in line with their NPC counterparts (at least to begin with), and with the need to have my NPCs have the appropriate ammount of equipment as well, I need to have a lower WBL.

And so far, any discussion has consisted of dancing around that issue. Yes, the PCs will ultimately need to get more creative with their money. But RIGHT NOW, while they're at a level in society that shouldn't LET THEM get creative with their money, I need to have a number that is conistant with where they are.

(Ultimately, if this goes nowhere, I may simply need to reverse-engineer the value by rolling an NPC, equip him with everything he'd logically need, tally up the value and set that as the WBL.)

dextercorvia
2011-01-26, 12:02 PM
I don't know if this helps, but bacon is already cured. If you let them smoke it, it won't need so much salt just to keep it. Then you can feel free to reduce their wealth and they still get a bacon wagon. Also, you can rule that using salt as a preservative reduces its value -- although some might argue that bacon flavored salt is actually an improvement.

Edit, I've found this problem at early levels, too. As soon as your characters kill some stuff with any amount of weapons and armor, they are swimming in cash. You really need to reduce the resale value for common items to keep wealth in check.

Another_Poet
2011-01-26, 12:06 PM
I'd consider leaving WBL alone, and suggesting a more "Conan" approach. Conan couldn't buy magic items with his hoards of treasure.... so he'd just blow them immediately on feasting, whoring and lavish displays at the next town he reached.

You'd need to talk to your group OOC and express your concern, but that's often the best way to handle this stuff anyway. Instead of carting around 1600 servings of bacon, they could serve a free dinner to 1600 commoners in the next townland they visit, quickly depleting money and also building a huge reputation of kindness and generosity (gain allies).... of wealth and affluence (attract thieves).... of being populist rabble-rousers (gets local king's attention).

Similarly, what about a fountain of wine. What about cold-press-brewing coffee beans in 100-year old wine, to make a coffee wine, just to see what it tastes like? How about building statues of themselves, or commissioning a copy of Pelor's Holy Book inscribed completely on ivory slats?

You get the idea.

If your group is up for it, it may be as much or more fun than their current ridiculous purchases, with the added benefit of no bookkeeping (they're not carting it around with them) and being more in tune with Swords & Sorcery tropes, which is what a low-magic D&D game is really all about.

Drakevarg
2011-01-26, 12:09 PM
I'd consider leaving WBL alone, and suggesting a more "Conan" approach. Conan couldn't buy magic items with his hoards of treasure.... so he'd just blow them immediately on feasting, whoring and lavish displays at the next town he reached.

You'd need to talk to your group OOC and express your concern, but that's often the best way to handle this stuff anyway. Instead of carting around 1600 servings of bacon, they could serve a free dinner to 1600 commoners in the next townland they visit, quickly depleting money and also building a huge reputation of kindness and generosity (gain allies).... of wealth and affluence (attract thieves).... of being populist rabble-rousers (gets local king's attention).

Similarly, what about a fountain of wine. What about cold-press-brewing coffee beans in 100-year old wine, to make a coffee wine, just to see what it tastes like? How about building statues of themselves, or commissioning a copy of Pelor's Holy Book inscribed completely on ivory slats?

You get the idea.

If your group is up for it, it may be as much or more fun than their current ridiculous purchases, with the added benefit of no bookkeeping (they're not carting it around with them) and being more in tune with Swords & Sorcery tropes, which is what a low-magic D&D game is really all about.

Again, this is nice for later in the game. But the characters simply shouldn't have this much money to begin with.

As I've said before, I only ever use WBL for initial character generation. And at the start of the game, there's no reason for two peasants, a wanted ex-soldier, and the son of a merchant to have 10000gp between them. Three out of four of them would have an instant death sentance on their heads if they actually used any of their abilities. Which doesn't exactly leave much room for well-paying jobs.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-26, 12:18 PM
I'd consider leaving WBL alone, and suggesting a more "Conan" approach. Conan couldn't buy magic items with his hoards of treasure.... so he'd just blow them immediately on feasting, whoring and lavish displays at the next town he reached.

It's what, half your wealth gets spent on ale and whores for every week spent in town instead of adventuring?

I've always considered such an attitude to be pretty appropriate. It's not unlike that of say, pirates and sailors after coming onto a large sum of money, and those are historically fairly decent analogs for adventurers.

As for instant death sentences for using class abilities? That's again not standard D&D. WBL charts make no such assumptions. Have your players complained about having too much money?

dextercorvia
2011-01-26, 12:20 PM
I'm confused. Why aren't you just letting them pick up 2-300 gp in equipment and then running with it? If you aren't using the WBL guidelines to target their wealth later, why would you do it at creation?

Note, if you use the Defense Bonus variant from UA, you can reduce Wealth more, because they won't need armor.

Drakevarg
2011-01-26, 12:23 PM
As for instant death sentences for using class abilities? That's again not standard D&D.

Neither is low-magic in general. Can you stop pointing this out with every post? I warned them about that bit beforehand, anyway. It was specifically so that they wouldn't bloody roll Warlocks. But apparently infinite blasting capabilities was too good to resist.


Have your players complained about having too much money?

Who would ever complain about having too much money? No one ever complains about playing an overpowered character, either. Doesn't mean it should be allowed.

They have, however, complained about EACH OTHER having too much money. Specifically when Rovhal's player spent half a session buying every single item in the book, simply because why the hell not.


I'm confused. Why aren't you just letting them pick up 2-300 gp in equipment and then running with it? If you aren't using the WBL guidelines to target their wealth later, why would you do it at creation?

Because I mass produce all my NPC mooks beforehand and want them to be all at more or less the same power level, instead of simply tossing them whatever gear suits my fancy at that particular instant.

As for the "why don't you" bit, the entire point of this thread is to figure out roughly what that 2-300 gp in equipment should be. Should it actually be 2-300? Or should it be more like 500? 700? 1200? I don't know, that's why I'm here.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-26, 12:33 PM
Neither is low-magic in general. Can you stop pointing this out with every post? I warned them about that bit beforehand, anyway. It was specifically so that they wouldn't bloody roll Warlocks. But apparently infinite blasting capabilities was too good to resist.

If you don't want them to roll warlocks, you can just say "no warlocks in this setting". This indicates a disconnect between what you want and what your players want.


Who would ever complain about having too much money? No one ever complains about playing an overpowered character, either. Doesn't mean it should be allowed.

Sure they do. They are phrased as "My DM doesn't challenge me enough". Too much gold is "why is there nothing to spend my money on?"


They have, however, complained about EACH OTHER having too much money. Specifically when Rovhal's player spent half a session buying every single item in the book, simply because why the hell not.

This is somewhat different. That isn't a complaint that means "too much money". That's a complaint that means "Why are we wasting our time sitting here while he thumbs through a book for hours".

Limiting shopping time during gaming sessions is reasonable. In fact, I generally encourage players to look that stuff up between sessions. Nobody else in the party is interested in the precise number of sets of clothing you own.

Coidzor
2011-01-26, 12:37 PM
Neither is low-magic in general. Can you stop pointing this out with every post? I warned them about that bit beforehand, anyway. It was specifically so that they wouldn't bloody roll Warlocks. But apparently infinite blasting capabilities was too good to resist.

Say what you mean and mean what you say.

If you don't want warlocks, don't have them as an option, don't be passive-aggressive and make it so that warlocks are insta-gibbed because you don't want them playing warlocks.

Edit: Tyndmyr brings up a good point. If you keep running into a disconnect between yourself and your players you might want to speak with them and feel out some kind of compromise.

Drakevarg
2011-01-26, 12:45 PM
Say what you mean and mean what you say.

If you don't want warlocks, don't have them as an option, don't be passive-aggressive and make it so that warlocks are insta-gibbed because you don't want them playing warlocks.

Well, I felt like leaving them some form of caster, just in case they felt that magic was worth being shat on by the universe. Which, apparently, they did. Might not do that in later incarnations (which are inevitable considering how lethal things tend to get).

The point of needing to have a reasonable standard of gear for NPCs remains completely ignored.

Urpriest
2011-01-26, 12:50 PM
Like I said earlier in this thread, WBL probably is appropriate for these characters. A reasonable adventurer of that level could have a use for all that money. That said, not all of them will, so it might be better to have wealth work differently for different people. It won't let you mass produce NPCs, but this isn't a setting where that's appropriate anyway.

One option would be to have wealth based on character background. The people who are peasants? They have appropriate wealth for a peasant. Perhaps adding up a year's worth of 2sp a day wages and subtracting off food will give a good estimate of that. The merchant's son? If he's the first son he probably has a moderate level of wealth...look at the amount of wealth he would need to purchase a usable amount of trade goods. Like, say, a wagon of bacon. The ex-soldier? In that time period soldiers bought their own armor and weapons. So look at what your game is balanced around. The base stats assume he's got mostly masterwork weapons at this point, but if you've adjusted enemy stats on the assumption that he's just got mundane weapons then give him the wealth for those.

Coidzor
2011-01-26, 12:51 PM
The point of needing to have a reasonable standard of gear for NPCs remains completely ignored.

You've had a few suggestions. Haven't really seen you respond to them.

It seems to me that you just want a standard kit of equipment (clothes on back + equipment to do job and get from place to place relatively intact) and a priori possessions that the characters should feel invested (homesteads, share in the family holdings, share in a trading/privateering vessel) in rather than raw WBL, though with some allowance of liquid wealth as well.

What your specific allowance is entirely up to you, of course, possibly tending towards the more clothes upon one's back and steel in one's hand.

Heck, you might even just have them operate entirely on the economy of the silver piece...

Lord Vampyre
2011-01-26, 12:51 PM
As I've said before, I only ever use WBL for initial character generation. And at the start of the game, there's no reason for two peasants, a wanted ex-soldier, and the son of a merchant to have 10000gp between them. Three out of four of them would have an instant death sentance on their heads if they actually used any of their abilities. Which doesn't exactly leave much room for well-paying jobs.

Ah, I see the problem. If you want your players to only have what a general soldier would have in the beginning, then you should give them the wealth of a 1st level character. This is pretty much the basic point you're getting to.

As for your NPCs, since there is no magic for them to waste their precious money on, you could consider dividing their level by 2 (rounding down), and then giving them the wealth of NPCs of that particular level. It should save you the trouble of having to reverse engineer every level of wealth. Although, you should consider the fact that just because an NPC is wealthy, doesn't mean that he is necessarily of a higher level and vice versa.

Drakevarg
2011-01-26, 12:53 PM
One option would be to have wealth based on character background. The people who are peasants? They have appropriate wealth for a peasant. Perhaps adding up a year's worth of 2sp a day wages and subtracting off food will give a good estimate of that. The merchant's son? If he's the first son he probably has a moderate level of wealth...look at the amount of wealth he would need to purchase a usable amount of trade goods. Like, say, a wagon of bacon. The ex-soldier? In that time period soldiers bought their own armor and weapons. So look at what your game is balanced around. The base stats assume he's got mostly masterwork weapons at this point, but if you've adjusted enemy stats on the assumption that he's just got mundane weapons then give him the wealth for those.

This sounds fun to do. Maybe toss in a few other perks and penalties and whatnot.


You've had a few suggestions. Haven't really seen you respond to them.

Overlooked, most like.


What your specific allowance is entirely up to you, of course, possibly tending towards the more clothes upon one's back and steel in one's hand.

Find that reasonable allowance is the point of this thread.


Heck, you might even just have them operate entirely on the economy of the silver piece...

I very nearly considered just saying "WBL keeps the same numbers, but the 'g' is now an 's'." Problem being, then the average 3rd level character can't afford a house.

Knaight
2011-01-26, 12:55 PM
You said viking era, so build the NPC warriors and such with what makes sense. The typical NPC warrior is going to have a spear, thick furs (leather armor mechanically), a knife of some sort (which may be a seax), as well as stuff like a house, which can't be looted by virtue of being immobile. Drop resale value for the furs, given that they get horribly bloodstained in combat, and the wealth coming from gear selling should be minimal. Occasionally you get a sword, and occasionally you get mail, both of which are probably inherited. This limits wealth intake.

As far as starting wealth goes, just allow mundane equipment that fits the character, then allow maybe 10 Gp on top of that. Then make rules tweaks. The vikings loved their shields, so double shield AC, and create some quick homebrew rules as to shields breaking. The Icelandic Sagas love shields breaking, its true to the source material, and it is a money sink, if a very valuable one.

Horses are similar, they can die, but they are useful, for the use they are likely to see.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-26, 01:01 PM
NPC WBL is only useful for those sorts of characters who carry this wealth on them.

Most people don't. Villagers have usual villager stuff, not WBL worth of gold and weapons.

The mayor? Yeah, he has a fine house and nice clothes. He might have weapons, but WBL is probably not that relevant to determining what they are. I've never honestly used NPC WBL.

Drakevarg
2011-01-26, 01:03 PM
Considering the vaguely conceived goal of a 3rd level character being able to afford gear + a house, I think that half standard NPC WBL is a good way to go. Especially since even after all that bacon wagon business most of the players still have about half of their gold laying around.

dextercorvia
2011-01-26, 01:07 PM
How about this:

1st 10GP
2nd 40GP
3rd 75GP
4th 125GP
5th 225GP
6th 375GP

At 1st level this lets you equip: Conscripts (Spear, Padded Armor) or Slingers (Sling, Bullets, Dagger Backup, Padded Armor). There are other similar combos that someone might go for.

At 2nd you can equip: Light Infantry (Short Sword, Studded Leather, Light Wooden Shield) or Archers (Short Bow, Arrows, Dagger), Heavy Infantry (Heavy Flail, Hide, Heavy Wooden Shield)

At 3rd you can continue specializing: (Greatsword instead of Heavy Flail, or Scale instead of Hide) or you can be a generalist (carry a Glaive and a Bow).

I would lower the price of a Light Warhorse to 100gp, just like a Warpony, then at 4th you can afford a mount, with 1st level equipment, or a major Armor Upgrade (Chain Shirt) with 2nd level Weapons, or Heavier Generalist.

At 5th you should be able to have Light Warhorse + Scale, or an Exotic Weapon with good armor.

At 6th, mounts should have barding, characters can have high end weaponry and armor.

Edit: Just let them have a House on top of this.

randomhero00
2011-01-26, 01:36 PM
See, the problem is that they're not supposed to be fabulously rich. By my setting's rules, they should have as much monetary value as your average soldier. Which should mean enough for weapons, armor, a small home, and maybe some livestock.



I never liked alchemy to begin with, for starters. And you shouldn't be able to buy napalm at the corner store.

Well if that's the case just introduce money sinks or lower WBL. For instance, repairing weapons (think WoW where its a slow degrade) and armor would be really expensive. Think taxes just for entering a town. Any town. Toll roads. Bribes. Just get creative.

Coidzor
2011-01-26, 04:18 PM
I very nearly considered just saying "WBL keeps the same numbers, but the 'g' is now an 's'." Problem being, then the average 3rd level character can't afford a house.

Well, my suggestion was to mostly just ignore the price of the house/ship/non-liquid macguffin in terms of them being able to afford it with their starting pocket money. The only part where its value or price become important is if they enter into negotiations to try to liquidate that asset or if it's something that they have the option & incentive to pay off/buy-out the other stake-holders.

Quick and dirty, I'd have 'em each have the most mid-range starting gold in pocket money, a standard travelers' kit (mess kit, cooking gear, something to carry it all in, rope, gear to deal with common known hazards), the tools of their trade as appropriate to their attained station (instruments, weapons, trained animals), and the tools necessary to mostly maintain their possessions (whetstones, appropriate preservative oils).

Gorilla2038
2011-01-26, 04:52 PM
Wait, what? I mean, yes you'd have to buy the ingredients and make it, but the corner store does sell them.

But if you want to insist that that's modern and shouldn't be in a D&D setting, google "greek fire" - they had flaming arrows in like 800BCE, and large-scale stuff by... 400BCE, iirc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire

Slight problem with that statement- the reason we dont know what greek fire was made of is simple. The military advantage of the stuff was so great that roughly 20(from memory of a long ago history class) people knew it at one time. Then they were killed in a coup.

So no, I heavily doubt the corner store will have something that reshapes warfare to the same degree as the aircraft, if not the nuke.