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View Full Version : Dread Necromancers + Frank and K...A Tier 2(Or perhaps even a tier 1?) in the making?



Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 03:23 PM
Frank and K is known to boost the power level of sup-par melee classes by leaps and miles, but nobody has ever looked at the poor, old dread necro who due to his tier of 3 is not considered underpowerd and thus is considered to need no remidy. I however, feel the DN deserves more, and while frank and K boosts everybody's power levels, it dose a lot more for the DN then one first assumes. No, I am not speaking of the Tome of Necromancy PrCs or even the TON feats(Though they are lovely on a DN.) Rather, I am speaking of some lesser known feats, mainly Attune Domain and Attune Sphere. While both are fiend feats and flavorfully allowed to be selected only by fiendish creatures, for all intent and purposes Hellbread and LA+0 versions of planetouched should be allowed to qualify for most resonable DMs(I mean, if a hellbread or tiefling can qualify for a fiend class, why not a fiend feat as well?).

If you don't know what these feats do, they are basicly what Arcane Disciple SHOULD have been. attune Domain gives you all the spells of a cleric domain as spells known at the approprate levels, no casting once-per day, no need for a high wisdom score. 9 new spells go strait to your list. Likewise attune Sphere dose more or less the same thing but with a fiendish sphere as appose to a cleric domain. What dose this mean for the dread Necro? Well, with enough of these feats and the right domain/sphere choices I personally think the Dread Necro would become a solid tier 2.

With so many cleric domains to select from a Dread Necro could easily gain acsses to many of the off-list spells that make other tier 2s so powerful. However, unlike, say, a sorcerer, the Dread Necro will have more spells known and actual class features. With 4 of these feats a Dread Necro would be able to gain a number of spells known about equal to a standard sorcerer.(Why I say about equal is because the sorcerer gets more lower level spells known then the spells that 4 of these feats would add but taking 4 of those feats would add more higher level spells known then a standard sorc knows.). while a sorc could also take these feats to get more spells known, the DN already comes with a butload of spells known as well as actual class features. Now, add in the fact that domains and spheres offer the chance to grab some very powerful spells that are what makes a tier 2, AND the fact that a DN can spontainously cast with the right domains he can be quite versatile and be able to do a lot of the standard things a Wizard or Sorc could do(Not, however, EVERYTHING. he would not be a wizard but with the right domains and/or spheres could function a lot like a traditional one.) AND still be the best necromancer in the game(INCLUDING having Desecrate on their list and animate dead as a level 3.) Oh, and you can also pick up Magic Circle(and perhaps even dimensional anchor if there is a domain or sphere out there with it) which means your Planar Binding spells are not not totally useless.

So, with those feats, what can a DN do? Melee? We all know how well charnel touch and tomb tainted soul go togther. We all know how abusive fear and imperous command can be on a DN. We, thus, all know that a DN is a viable gish on it's own. Add a domain that adds, say, divine power to it's spells known and a DN can play clericzilla since he gets rebuke and thus can use DMM Persist. Battlefield control? There's domains and spheres that can give a DN a limited number of battlefield control spells. Sure, the Wizard may have a wider range of battlefield control but in the end having lots of different ways to control the battlefield is only slightly better then being able to spam a small selection of battlefield control spells so with the right domains/spheres this DN build could feesably be a passable battlefield controller. Necromancy? Seirously...a DN could do this BETTER then a wizard without frank and K, frank and K just made him even better at it with the ability to get Desecrate and level 3 animate dead and praticly any other necromancy spell he wants. Heck, he gets advance learning too so simply put if there is a Necromancy spell he wants on his list, he can get it, no matter what level it is.

Healing? Yeah, he may not be great at it, but there ARE healing based domains. So while it's not an optimal choice if you REALLY want some healing then you can take a domain for it. Party Buffer? With an apporprate domain he can do decently on this though just like battlefield control in which the wizard can do it slightly better, the cleric(and bard) can still do it better then him. Skill Monkey? This one is a no sadly, no matter what domain/sphere spells he gets a DN can't do this unless he's gestalted with a high skill class. Party face? A DN is already charisma based which is a good start. Add in spheres/domains with good "face" type spells and the DM can be an awesome party face. Heck one of the spheres(I forget which) even can give you glibness, which was before one of the main reasons bards where awesome party faces...not to mention the same sphere also gives you mind rape if you like the idea makeing somebody your mind slave for life.

So, yeah, with just 4 of the right domains/spheres a DN can gain great raw power and do some things that he could never do otherwise(Though there may be others that can do it a bit better.) Thus, with the right domain/spheres a DN can have the raw power of a tier 2-tier 1 and can have some versitility but not as much as a wizard and other tier 1s and thus I personally think that Frank and K make the Dread Necro a solid tier 2 with these feats. However, I want your opinions. with these feats and the right sphere/domain choices dose a DN become a Tier 2? Or is he still just a more versatile tier 3? Or perhaps I am undersetimating the power of these feats and he's a low tier 1 or something in between tiers 1 and 2?(1.5?) Share your opinions on this here..

GreyMantle
2011-01-25, 03:45 PM
...So...what you're saying is that by using ToF feats the dread necromancer could become significantly more powerful than normal?


I guess I'm wondering why you need to keep bringing up the tier system. Plus, I suspect that the whole "you know every spell on your spelllist" thing for the DN kinda precludes the weird limbo Tier2s exist in.

Also, this isn't really DN unique. You could do the same thing with a warmage or a beguiler or and Elementalist or any other themed sorcerer you write up.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 03:52 PM
I know that full well, I just did not mention it because I thought it would be assumed that while I am discussing the dread Necromancer that locgically what I am saying would be known to apply to ANY tier 3 caster class and not just the DN. I am simply looking at the DN in a vacume rather then compairing it to other classes except a NON -rank and K sorcerer who is the poster child for tier 2s. The non-frank and K sorcerer is simply A convient and good jumping off point to establish something to compair a frank and K DN to that shows it can be a tier 2. A frank and K sorcerer will still be better then a DN in most cases and the use of the sorcerer compairsons is simply to show that with Frank and K a DN can be a tier 2. It was not my intent to say "Frank and K makes a DN better then a sorcerer!" and I am sorry if the OP read that way.

However, in the bigger picture, beguilers and basicly any other tier 3 caster gets an upgrade to tier 2. I just never bothered stating that because I thought that was a logical enough conclusion to make and thus everybody would assume that what is said here applies to all tier 3 casters.(and the casters(like a sorcerer) who are already at tier 2.)

Greenish
2011-01-25, 04:09 PM
DN isn't really a viable gish straight classed, except for the lowest levels, and DMM only works on Divine spells, which the DN still wouldn't have.

[Edit]: A wall of text reads much better if you use a spell-checker. It's easy and fun!

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 04:15 PM
I don't have spellcheck at all on this machine since I am not on my own computer and without spell check I suck at anything spelling or grammar related. Also, I was not aware that DMM persist worked only on divine spells and the whole reason I said a DN plus Frank and K can do melee was because of domains that give divine power/other buffs and DMM persist. Thanks for pointing that out to me and I will remember that in the future.

Psyren
2011-01-25, 04:23 PM
I'm glad you're enthused, but Attune Domain just sounds like Rainbow Servant in feat form. If you toss enough domains onto a class that already knows its whole list, and don't even require it to change casting stats or give up its class features... then of course it will get stronger, much stronger. What's there to discuss?

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 04:29 PM
Because I am desperate. I am seeking a way to make a tier 1(and at this rate MAYBE even Tier 2.) CHA based Necromancer that the majority of DMs will except and thus I want to stay away from homebrew that's not well recieved like frank and K. IDEALLY I would have a cloistered cleric with cha instead of wisdom as it's casting stat for EVERYTHING(So Dynamic Priest on it's own fails here.) and sadly the only way I can see that happening is with homebrew thats NOT from a repudable source(Like a 3rd party publisher or frank and K) and thus liable to get denied a whole lot. So I have been desperatly looking for any posible way to get what I want, even going as far to try and create my own class for the job though nobody seems to want to or be able to help that class get it whear I want since every sugjestion has been either to do something which would push the class to tier 3 or has more or less been "suck it up and play a normal cloistered cleric" so I more or less have totally given up on that class which you can find in my sig if my some miracle you feel you can help me with it.

gbprime
2011-01-25, 04:34 PM
Check your other thread. As I pointed out, Spirit Shaman can be entirely CHA based with one feat, knows it's whole spell list, and is a divine caster. Add a cleric dip to put 2 necro-spell domains in the repetoire and some turning for DMM fuel, and off you go. Thin spell list, weak rebuking power, but concept is there.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 04:43 PM
I want a teir 1(and maybe tier 2 at this point) necromancer who's a tier 1-tier 2 GOOD at necromancer not just a guy with the druid list, crappy rebuking and a few necromancy spells. I want the cleric list, or something equally good at necromancy. Without the cleric list or a spell list with the equlivilent necromancy spells I cannot achive what I want. A spirit shamen is not a necromancer just because he can animate a few zombies and has the deathbound domain. A necromancer uses other things too, negetive energy, debuffs ect.. A spirit shamen is just a spirit shamen who can animate undead, not a necromancer since the undead are just accessories and MOST of his spells are nature-themed rather then negative energy based. Of course the favored soul would work provided it's casting was like the spirit shamen but it's sadly not. The only way to make a spirit shamen what I want would be with MAJOR homebrew, as in swaping the druid list for the cleric list, giving it rebuke ect.. and at that point I may as just well homebrew a feat that says your cleric can cast off charisma?

So I guess at this rate my best bet is Generic Caster since the RAW reading of Turn Undead means that I have a good excuse to add homebrew and thats makes it easier to get accepted rather then just saying "I want X homebrew...will you allow it?" though Generic Caster has the downside of being in and of itself not something easily approved and quite overpowered.(Though it's not all that worse then a wizard since it has limited spells known.)

JaronK
2011-01-25, 05:26 PM
Easy T1 DN with no house rules: Dragonwrought Kobold. You can add the entire Cleric or Druid spell list to the DN list, and get a racial +3 to all mental stats while you're at it. Note that you might be in trouble at level 20 once you go undead, due to not being a dragon anymore... but then again, you would become a dracolich, which is pretty awesome.

Whether your DM will accept this or not is a whole other issue, but if your DM rejects it for being too powerful, won't they likely reject anything that makes a DN Tier 1 anyway?

JaronK

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 05:39 PM
Yeah, I forget specifically how they get all cleric spells, though. I've looked at sovereign archetypes(which is what people say dose that.)...but none of them actually give you ALL cleric spells. They only give you the spells from three domains associated with the archetype. However, chances are I missed the one(s) that give you all cleric spells so I would love to know what sovereign archetype dose that and if an evil character can take it(I know some of them are good only.) As for how cheesy this is, at this point I don't care how low I have to stoop to get what I want which should be obvious since I have expressed that I'm willing to go as far as generic caster...so sinking to dragonwrought, despite how awful that feels to type, is at this point an issue I can deal with as this situation is otherwise hopeless.

[EDIT]: I am feeling a lot more optimistic right now and ecstatic that I don't have to resort to generic caster or dragonwrought. Somebody finally came through with a 3rd party solution. Sadly I don't know if the company that produces it has a good reputation(Said company is Green Ronin and the only book I have by them, The Secret Collage of Necromancy, is of a very poor quality and rather notorious for it's broken necromancer class and poorly made spells.) but in the case they don't I have decided that rather then try and get cha to my DCs as a Cleric with Dynamic Priest(which is what I was looking to do in the first place) I forget about swapping my DCs to charisma and in the process forget about all my ability scores, instead getting as much taint as I can and going into tainted sorcerer, switching my casting stat to taint as appose to any ability score meaning I could have 1 wisdom and so long as my taint score was high my DCs would be too.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-25, 05:52 PM
Yeah, I forget specifically how they get all cleric spells, though. I've looked at sovereign archetypes(which is what people say dose that.)...but none of them actually give you ALL cleric spells. They only give you the spells from three domains associated with the archetype. However, chances are I missed the one(s) that give you all cleric spells so I would love to know what sovereign archetype dose that and if an evil character can take it(I know some of them are good only.) As for how cheesy this is, at this point I don't care how low I have to stoop to get what I want which should be obvious since I have expressed that I'm willing to go as far as generic caster...so sinking to dragonwrought, despite how awful that feels to type, is at this point an issue I can deal with as this situation is otherwise hopeless.

I think he's misreading/alternatively interpreting this passage from the rules for True Dragons:


Spells
A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells.


Not 'all' dragons, only 'some' of them - so Dragonwrought Kobolds don't get Grandfathered into arcane cleric casting the way they do Epic feats via the clause in Draconomnomnomicon, unless there's a similar clause in the Nomnomicon I missed that does extend that ability to 'all' dragons.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 05:59 PM
Yeah. I never really saw how the sovereign archetype thing was possible since I looked at them to see how and saw that it seemed like there was no way. Luckily somebody gave me a 3rd party feat to solve my issues but if I can't get said feat approved then I decided the next best thing is to just be a cloistered cleric with Dynamic Priest, take the Divine Magician ACF to get all the no-save necromancy w2iz/sorc spells(such as Shivering Tough(and it's lesser cousin) ect..) to be my "offensive necromancy" at the low levels and focus more on animating undead and being a support/buffer type of character until I can get enough taint to go into tainted sorcerer and not care what my ability scores are since my casting stat at that point is no longer cha OR wiz but my taint. Also, the taint and Necromancy make a nice pair thematically and RP wise.

Psyren
2011-01-25, 06:03 PM
Not 'all' dragons, only 'some' of them - so Dragonwrought Kobolds don't get Grandfathered into arcane cleric casting the way they do Epic feats via the clause in Draconomnomnomicon, unless there's a similar clause in the Nomnomicon I missed that does extend that ability to 'all' dragons.

At the same time, "some dragons" doesn't exclude DW Kobolds either. And really, once you're using DW Kobold to make your concept work, you may as well go full bore. In for a penny, in for an epic spell I always say.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-25, 06:12 PM
At the same time, "some dragons" doesn't exclude DW Kobolds either. And really, once you're using DW Kobold to make your concept work, you may as well go full bore. In for a penny, in for an epic spell I always say.

True enough, to an extent...but it's still a questionable reading of the rules, whereas the Epic Feats exception is incredibly cheesy, but also explicitly allowed by RAW.

JaronK
2011-01-25, 06:20 PM
Not 'all' dragons, only 'some' of them - so Dragonwrought Kobolds don't get Grandfathered into arcane cleric casting the way they do Epic feats via the clause in Draconomnomnomicon, unless there's a similar clause in the Nomnomicon I missed that does extend that ability to 'all' dragons.

If you look at the Sovereign Archetypes, you'll find they have a clause that says if you don't get cleric arcane casting, then you lose nothing and can still take the archetype anyway. For example, Gem Dragons, which don't have any arcane casting at all (less so than Kobolds, who at least get the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage), can still take Sovereign Archetypes.

Anyway, if you're trying to take a Dread Necromancer all the way up to tier 1, you're going to have to do SOMETHING cheesy. That's one heck of a power bump.

JaronK