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true_shinken
2011-01-25, 05:50 PM
Due to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184480), I need to build a Spellthief for the BBEG's plan to work. However, seeing as this NPC would be so crucial to his plans, I decided to make her more important.
This Spellthief will be the BBEG's lover - she wants absolute power for her lover so she can finally be queen. She's a half-elf (fluff reasons; now the BBEG having a hand in constructing a half-elven state makes even more sense) devoted to Lolth.
This bad girl spends her days controlling troops, making sure a war continues and has a hand on the workings of an assassin guild (actually, now that the PCs killed the two leaders, she is de facto leader). Her main purpose, though, is to steal simulacrum SLAs from Mirror Mephits she summons (I might just give it as a spell known to her)... and then use Circle Magic (as the feat from Ghostwalk, but using the FRCS rules) to get an army of Tarrasque simulacrum.
I wanter her around level 14, and initially I though Spellthief 14, but I want her to be more or a challenge. Spellthief 5 is needed for Steal Spell-like ability and I need room for the Circle Magic feat.
I'm thinking of using Planar Touchstone (oxyrhynchus) for extra attacks and a weird feel (she is a plane walker! boo!) and TWF. Battle Dancer (from Dragon Compendium) seemed like a nice fit - between Oxyrhynchus base ability, TWF and Snap Kick, this girl would be deadly (also, Oxyr + Snap Kick = arguably 2 attacks on an AoO, though I dunno if I want to go that route).

Any thoughts on what I should do? I want her to be a credible melee threat (she'll have a few assassins as mooks and I might just release one of the simulacrums during the fight).

quiet1mi
2011-01-25, 05:59 PM
When your the GM, you can just Gestalt your BBEGs to ensure that they can do what you want them to do thematically and mechanically... As a guide to ensure things do not to over powered:

Tier 1 and 2 is powerful enough 9/10 times...
Tier 3 is fine when combined with Tier 6 for +2 to all/most saves, d8 HD, Full Bab, and/or a 4+ skills.
Tier 4 and 5 combined with another Tier 4 and 5 is also fine. It allows a lot of interesting combinations that are powerful but not overwhelming...

For this, I could see either Hexblade/Spell Thief or Paladin of Tyranny/Spell Thief...

A Hexblade/Spell thief would have Cha to saves, ways to debuff, and mettle... Spell thief does not have evasion, but has a lot of things that can protect them.

Paladin of Tyranny/Spell Thief is a little more MAD (Charisma, Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity) but if you just have you Wisdom just high enough to cast the level of spell the Paladin would be at (I think 13 is enough) then you should be fine. Otherwise a Item to boost her wisdom could be worn so she can cast spells...

Gestalting the Bad guys is a lot of fun and when compared to 4-5 players that work together, Gestalting does not produce overpowered badguys...

true_shinken
2011-01-25, 06:12 PM
When your the GM, you can just Gestalt your BBEGs to ensure that they can do what you want them to do thematically and mechanically...
I don't do that kind of stuff. I have a very simulationist view of my games. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

quiet1mi
2011-01-25, 06:33 PM
BBEGs or characters having to give and take on what you want them to do to satisfy some level chart seems to be the problem... Gestalting allows for the spellthief that can mix it up in HTH...

Trust me when I say that a Tier 4/5 mixed with another Tier 4/5 is not that munchkiny or broken...

Chances are, the character will then be able to do things in a thematic fashion without being tied down to ridiculous restraints of having this exact item or visiting this place and doing that... Most of the times, the players won't notice that the spell thief is also a hexblade (FYI: D10 HD, Full BAb, 6+ skills, +2 all saves, + charisma to saves, and everything else you mentioned...)

avr
2011-01-25, 06:41 PM
If you're using snap kick, I guess Tome of Battle is in. Spellthief 6/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 2 gets an IL of 11, which allows up to 6th level maneuvers. Moment of Alacrity and Dancing Mongoose sound appropriate.

true_shinken
2011-01-25, 06:42 PM
Trust me when I say that a Tier 4/5 mixed with another Tier 4/5 is not that munchkiny or broken...

My problem is not power level, my problem is consistency. There is no such thing as 'gestalt' in my setting.

quiet1mi
2011-01-25, 07:00 PM
Just do not say it is gestalt... the setting is to serve you not the other way around... the players are just that players, they do not tell you how to run your game nor should they be lawyering you on what is allowed in your setting.

Gestalt is just a mechanical method to building characters, just as point buy or rolling for stats. It really has nothing to do with setting. If you want someone powerful for their level and do not tier 1 or a character with just powerful items, gestalt a two tier 4/5 together or a Tier 3 with warrior or aristocrat.

The end result is you, The GM, getting a character that fits the setting rather then a character that is limited by the game system...

I might understand better if I was suggesting to play a cleric in a realm with no gods to worship or causes to follow, or even an artificer in a wilderness only setting. What I am suggesting is a way to build what you want, with a way to gauge on how powerful it would end being...

true_shinken
2011-01-25, 07:04 PM
Just do not say it is gestalt... the setting is to serve you not the other way around...
Dude, I just don't play like that. I like consistency. Again, I play highly simulationist games.
Also, I'm not having problems with building what I want. I'm just looking for suggestions on how to spice it up. Spellthief 14 could do everything I wanted.

Darrin
2011-01-26, 10:14 AM
Ok, so Circle Magic allows her to buff her caster level up high enough to steal a 7th level SLA? Does that also work for the mirror mephit? It's caster level for simulacrum is 8th, so it can only use it on creatures up to 16 HD. Caster level needs to be 24th to work on a Tarrasque.


Any thoughts on what I should do? I want her to be a credible melee threat (she'll have a few assassins as mooks and I might just release one of the simulacrums during the fight).

Battle Dancer 1/Spellthief 5/Ardent 2/Cerebremancer X with Tashalatora opens up some possibilities for buffing unarmed strikes and gives her a leg-up in the action economy.

I'd have her frequently use simulacrum on herself so she can pop up anywhere, no matter how hard the PCs smash her down she pops up somewhere else (also, the duplicates can help with Circle Magic). She uses instant diversion, mirror image, minor image, shadow double, translocation trick, programmed image, mislead, and maybe the Trickery Devotion so the PCs never know if they're attacking the "real" spellthief. Contingency + teleport, celerity, and maybe a Glyph Seal she can activate as a free action to get her out of trouble (lesser Glyph Seal + benign transposition or Greater Glyph Seal + teleport). Shalantha's delicate disk (Lost Empires of Faerun p. 33) has some immense possibilities for setting up traps or triggering multiple spell effects (put the disks in a bag, throw bag/cast shatter/etc.). After the PCs smash a couple duplicates and figures out they are vulnerable to fire or a single thaw spell, she has the duplicates cast death throes on themselves as a nasty little surprise (particularly if there are several duplicates low on HP in close proximity).

If I really wanted to throw a headscrew at the PCs, I'd give the spellthief a twin sister who's "good" and tries to help the PCs anonymously from the shadows/by proxies, probably a Factotum/Chameleon so the PCs can't tell what class she is, but in an emergency she can bamf in with just the right spell/ability to save their bacon, confuse the heck out of them with cryptic riddles/hints, and bamf out before they can say WTF. Naturally, she gets killed by her sister/BBEG/tarrasque in a messy way while saving the PCs, so you can play up the revenge angle.

If the PCs get to be too worrisome, she uses simulacrum on them to create evil duplicates, then lay a trap in a mirror maze with a "fake" mirror of opposition, or send them off to commit heinous crimes in their name and ruin their reputation.

Needs a weakness or dark secret... maybe Vow of the Spider Queen?

true_shinken
2011-01-26, 10:18 AM
most awesome post ever written in the history of postkind

Dude, thanks a lot. I'm going to do exactly that. Vow of the Spider Queen is an amazing finishing touch!
EDIT: Hm, Vow of the Spider Queen is for divine casters. I could just drop that requirement, though. My Lolth is more open minded. :smalltongue:

Pechvarry
2011-01-26, 12:50 PM
She stole a divine spell from a follower once. Close enough.

If you intend her to attack with minions, War Weaver may be worth considering. Steals spells from PCs (use that level 1 spell from SpC that's automatically a sneak attack) and buff allies with them. This build is ideal if she wears lots of leather and uses a whip.

I totally understand not wanting your bad guys playing by special rules like gestalt, but how do you feel about homebrew? There are a few beefed up spell-thieves around that are closer to tier 3 territory.

true_shinken
2011-01-26, 12:55 PM
I totally understand not wanting your bad guys playing by special rules like gestalt, but how do you feel about homebrew? There are a few beefed up spell-thieves around that are closer to tier 3 territory.
I use homebrew sparringly, but I'm fine with WotC Spellthief. I like tier 4 better anyway.

Darrin
2011-01-26, 02:57 PM
Hm, Vow of the Spider Queen is for divine casters. I could just drop that requirement, though. My Lolth is more open minded. :smalltongue:

It requires rebuke undead, but not necessarily divine casting, just caster level 6th. There are a few ways to get that into a build, but squeezing in a one-level dip into cloistered cleric somewhere wouldn't be too tough.

If you go Tashalatora/Cerebremancer or do a lot of dips, her BAB is going to be terrible if you still want her to be a melee threat. So have her steal a divine power from a friendly cleric, or give her a Necklace of Natural Weapons with the Skillful enhancement on it for medium BAB.

randomhero00
2011-01-26, 03:00 PM
OP I would just suggest you find something other than the tarrasque. He's meant to be unique, and never really be killed (regardless if PCs find it easy to finish him).

Stegyre
2011-01-26, 03:45 PM
So, this woman makes love and war. No need to make the choice, anymore! :smallwink:

Past the 7th level absorb spell class feature, I'm not seeing the attraction of more spell thief levels, and if you only need 5th level, maybe leave even sooner. (IMO, absorb spell would be pretty cool, if your adventurers depend on casting to take out BBEGs and their dragons.)

Stack on an appropriate caster class in the other levels. This is the situation Master Spellthief (CSc) was made for. Considering her other roles, I'd suggest bard, which matches with the planned Battle Dancer; add in Snowflake Wardance.

Bard also makes a good cover for her to do her own reconaissance.

I don't see the attraction of Vow of the Spider Queen: too many otherwise unnecessary prereqs; benefits that don't fit with what (it looks like) this character will do. I'd suggest saving that and giving it to a later BBEG, who was/is this character's mentor.

Darrin
2011-01-26, 05:31 PM
I don't see the attraction of Vow of the Spider Queen: too many otherwise unnecessary prereqs; benefits that don't fit with what (it looks like) this character will do. I'd suggest saving that and giving it to a later BBEG, who was/is this character's mentor.

It's not supposed to be attractive. Actually, that Vow is pretty much complete garbage... the piddling advantages aren't worth anywhere near the disadvantages. I was just trying to think of a weakness to dribble hints to the PCs about, so they can sandbag her with a little preparation and ingenuity. A dying NPC gurgles something about, "Live by the spider, die by the spider...". A captured duplicate starts screaming incoherently about the ritual she must perform. An ancient religious text mentions some details about the horrible price for not properly appeasing Lolth. The spellthief deliberately avoids hurting certain creatures with her area-effect spells but carelessly burns through non-vermin minions without remorse.

Once the PCs catch on that if she hurts/kills any vermin, *poof* she gets turned into a drider. They could disguise some centipedes as hirelings/mercs, redirect one of her spells with spell turning or a ring of spell battle, set up a glyph seal trap, etc.

14 HD spellthief badass is now a 6 HD bag of crunchy XP. Otherwise, played very smartly with the right buffs, simulacrum duplicates, contingencies, celerity + teleport, etc. she could be darned near unkillable.