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View Full Version : Why Would You Choose To Become A Demilich?



Raistlin1040
2011-01-26, 02:42 AM
Becoming a lich makes sense, in my opinion. You gain all kinds of power in the form of ability score increases, skill increases, hit die, etc. Eternal life, provided someone doesn't come along and kill you and even then, if your phylactery is safe, you'll be fine. Yet, I don't understand the allure of demilichdom. You stuff gems in your eye sockets and in your mouth and then what? You lose your body and it seems like most of your ability to function. The only bonus to becoming a demilich that I can find is near total spell immunity, but the three spells that can destroy you (Shatter, Holy Smite, Dispel Evil) can still, you know, destroy you.

So what is the reason to become a demilich? Either in fiction that you've read, or the fluff in a rulebook, why would any lich become one?

blazingshadow
2011-01-26, 03:00 AM
i thought it was a side effect from using astral projection for a 1000 years without going back to check on your body? i forgot where i read that

zimmerwald1915
2011-01-26, 03:00 AM
For the evulz?

CN the Logos
2011-01-26, 03:08 AM
Why not?

As a lich, you've already forsaken the pleasures of the flesh anyway. As an epic level spellcaster, anything a body might otherwise be good for can be duplicated with magic (if fact you don't even have to use spells to move or hold things, you get telekinesis at will!), or if you really must have limbs, shapechange away! You also become diminuative, making you harder to hit, and can hide all the magic items you're using with your phylactery, meaning if your skull is smashed, the adventurers who've done it can't loot you and use your stuff against you when they find your tomb. You get mad bonuses to touch attacks. And you no longer need to worry about somatic components ever again, although that's pretty much irrelevant at this point.

Lastly, you may have already touched on this with the "gem" thing, but you eat souls. Your very presence makes the setting more metal. :smallcool:

Yeah... If you're crazy enough to want to be a rotting corpse for all time anyway, and don't mind an additional +6 LA, demilichdom is awesome.

...And now I want to play as a demilich. Crap.

ETA: Just remembered, I had read that the original demilich, Acererak, was actually dying for real, which was why he set the whole "Tomb of Horrors" plot in motion. Don't know if he became a demilich to forestall that, or if that happened when he was already a demilich and was just a natural result of being older than some gods.

blazingshadow
2011-01-26, 03:08 AM
in any case wouldn't they be able to remake their entire body by using the clone or simulacrum spells by using said leftover bodypart?

RipperOfShirts
2011-01-26, 03:09 AM
Probably because you're mind has deteriorated so badly after being undead for so long that, as far as you're concerned, jamming a large number of gems into your face and turning yourself into a tiny floating skull that steal souls is a fantastic idea you should have thought of almost a millennium ago.

Silva Stormrage
2011-01-26, 03:10 AM
For a player there is absolutely no reason. For a BBEG its freaking awesome. the + 20 level adjustment, massive gold and xp costs don't matter at all. Also the near total spell immunity you mentioned. Those spells deal almost nothing. Shatter isn't a fort save or die. Its a fort for half against 10d6 damage, assuming you don't have Spell immunity (the actual spell) for the three spells that can hurt you.... It gives you nice ability score increases AC Bonuses and its cr + 8 instead of + 20. Also it gives you some nice feats to go with it. Something most people ignore is his fly speed with a boots of super speed (whatever that epic item is that doubles speed) a single move action is 360 much farther than any fighter can move with wings of flying.
Of course another way to think about it is that the game has gone epic and is probably shot to pieces if wizards are playing as batman. If they aren't than the meat sticks get to shine (if they can hit his super ac and his fly speed) because spell immunity sucks for most casters.

The_Snark
2011-01-26, 03:11 AM
For the awe-inspiring arcane power?

I mean, let's face it: you gave up the pleasures of the flesh when you turned yourself into a withered skeletal creature in the first place. What's your body doing for you at this point, really? Wouldn't you rather have +10 to all mental abilities, a bevy of nifty spell-like abilities, the ability to suck people's souls out just by looking at them and immunity to spells (except for three rather mediocre ones)?

Well, maybe you wouldn't, but to the kind of person who wants to be a lich it probably sounds pretty appealing.

blazingshadow
2011-01-26, 03:17 AM
If they aren't than the meat sticks get to shine (if they can hit his super ac and his fly speed) because spell immunity sucks for most casters.there are also epic spells. spell inmunity doesn't protect much at epic level when you can make custom spells that get past it easily.

Benly
2011-01-26, 03:22 AM
there are also epic spells. spell inmunity doesn't protect much at epic level when you can make custom spells that get past it easily.

Yeah, but the kind of person who wants to become a demilich isn't going "I want to be able to overcome a fixed number of level-appropriate encounters per day, and this resource does not help me in those encounters". He's going "I want to become an immortal supermage that almost nobody can overthrow", and spell immunity goes a long way to narrowing down the field of potential overthrowers to those with specialized epic magic - a rather small pool in most settings.

Necro_EX
2011-01-26, 03:25 AM
It's really a sort of higher form of unlife, so any lich worth his salt would definitely go for it. Those bonuses to your mental ability scores aren't just statistical increases, to the lich those are greater understanding, more power.

Alleran
2011-01-26, 03:43 AM
Also the near total spell immunity you mentioned. Those spells deal almost nothing.
And on top of that, if you are indeed an epic-level caster by the time you become a demi-lich, then you can just create yourself some permanent epic magic that specifically renders you immune to those spells.

Eldan
2011-01-26, 04:34 AM
The only Demilich I remember in fiction anywhere showed up in a Lankhmar novel. Though there it was a gem-covered skull stolen from a grave, and it mostly just sat around on a table in the thieves guild pretending to be not alive for giggles.

And there wasn't any real explanation why it did it.

Aharon
2011-01-26, 05:15 AM
They are immune to all magical and supernatural effects. This is pretty awesome, considering there is very little that stops supernatural effects.

Plus, where do you get the idea from that the Demilich isn't immune to Epic Spells? It clearly says



Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows.

This includes epic spells. The notion that he isn't immune from them probably stems from the fact that epic spells might work in an antimagic field - but this is different.

TroubleBrewing
2011-01-26, 06:40 AM
The only Demilich I remember in fiction anywhere showed up in a Lankhmar novel. Though there it was a gem-covered skull stolen from a grave, and it mostly just sat around on a table in the thieves guild pretending to be not alive for giggles.

And there wasn't any real explanation why it did it.

This one is obvious, really. When you're a mega-powerful ultra-being with phenomenal cosmic power (without the itty-bitty living space), you do stuff like this purely because you can. It's the equivalent of people-watching in GTA4. When there isn't anything left to do, don't do anything. Just watch the ants, going about their business. Godhood is wasted on the mortal, so enjoy your vacation! You've spent all of your existence getting to this point, so why let a silly thing like "centuries passing on the table of a theives guild" get in your way. Might make an interesting story for you to tell the next age of humanity after the universe collapses and the gods fade into oblivion and you keep on keepin' on like it never happened. And when life springs into being again, take comfort in knowing that you'll find yourself on that table in the theives guild aaaaalllll over again, giggling madly because you've heard this all before, an infinite number of times. Just observing the universe on repeat. It's all cyclical, and it never, ever changes. Except you. The gem-encrusted, older-than-time skull on the table is the only thing that changes. Irony is an incredible thing, when you can watch it in action.

_Zoot_
2011-01-26, 07:17 AM
This one is obvious, really. When you're a mega-powerful ultra-being with phenomenal cosmic power (without the itty-bitty living space), you do stuff like this purely because you can. It's the equivalent of people-watching in GTA4. When there isn't anything left to do, don't do anything. Just watch the ants, going about their business. Godhood is wasted on the mortal, so enjoy your vacation! You've spent all of your existence getting to this point, so why let a silly thing like "centuries passing on the table of a theives guild" get in your way. Might make an interesting story for you to tell the next age of humanity after the universe collapses and the gods fade into oblivion and you keep on keepin' on like it never happened. And when life springs into being again, take comfort in knowing that you'll find yourself on that table in the theives guild aaaaalllll over again, giggling madly because you've heard this all before, an infinite number of times. Just observing the universe on repeat. It's all cyclical, and it never, ever changes. Except you. The gem-encrusted, older-than-time skull on the table is the only thing that changes. Irony is an incredible thing, when you can watch it in action.

Wow, that is a really impressive bit of thinking, now I want to play a Demi-Lich. :smalltongue:

Czin
2011-01-26, 07:56 AM
Why? Because you become able to cast a nifty array of powerful spell-like abilities at will, your mental stats go through the roof, your diminuitive size makes you far less vulnerable to touch attacks, you become immune to all but the most useless of spells; none of which are able to damage you beyond what a single harm spell (which a demilich can cast at will) can repair instantly, you can effectively have 9 phylactaries, and you can suck out people's souls by staring at them.

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-26, 11:33 AM
Because you can hide yourself inside an iron body, and when the adventurers come prepped to take down the Ancient Construct Overlord, BAM, you completely obliterate them with your ridiculous(as in AWESOME) Undead powers.

Oh yeah, and you get to continue accrueing Evolved Undead Templates.:smallamused:

Aemoh87
2011-01-26, 12:06 PM
I'd do it so I could eat smaller liches...

Stegyre
2011-01-26, 12:47 PM
Probably because you're mind has deteriorated so badly after being undead for so long that, as far as you're concerned, jamming a large number of gems into your face and turning yourself into a tiny floating skull that steal souls is a fantastic idea you should have thought of almost a millennium ago.
This explanation gets my vote.

Schlock Mercenary (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2007-09-02) has an interesting and perceptive take on the problem of existing too long. I suspect that all demilichs are quite, quite mad.

ericgrau
2011-01-26, 02:59 PM
Shatter, dispel evil and holy smite do minor damage. A cleric specializing in holy smite damage with all kinds of metamagic might have a chance, but how many of those are there? Also 3 epic feats and a ton of huge +X bonuses and resistances. I think blinding speed was developed around 3.0 haste; you might want to ask for a trade there. Maybe for another automatic quicken (now up to level 6 spells). The template isn't worthless at the very least.

The transformation itself is voluntary.

Czin
2011-01-26, 03:08 PM
Shatter, dispel evil and holy smite do minor damage. A cleric specializing in holy smite damage with all kinds of metamagic might have a chance, but how many of those are there? Also 3 epic feats and a ton of huge +X bonuses and resistances. I think blinding speed was developed around 3.0 haste; you might want to ask for a trade there. Maybe for another automatic quicken (now up to level 6 spells). The template isn't worthless at the very least.

The transformation itself is voluntary.

And even if they try to use metamagic shenanigans, you can shut them down with a counterspell.

TheGeckoKing
2011-01-26, 03:14 PM
Quoting the Forgotten Realms Wiki;


Despite the name, a demilich is not a lesser lich, but rather a lich who has evolved beyond a need for its undead body. Great wizards and sorcerers usually become liches in order to continue their pursuit of magic and power beyond death. Demiliches are those who are close to reaching the end of their arcane journey; who understand the nature of magic and reality in a way no mortal could conceive.

Now, this to me makes sense. First, you shed the need for such rubbish as "Life" and "Morality" and "Tasting Stuff" and become a Lich, because your so goddammed good at magic it doesn't matter about the +4 LA. THEN, oh yeah, you become so good at magic YOU DON'T NEED NO BODY!, because, quite frankly, you don't need no freaking limbs to be a magic man. Somatic components? Utterly mad? Stuff 'em! You can do magic by nodding at things, or something! You use Epic Scrolls for your Fiendish Pseudonatural Hamster's cage lining! You can just magic up some insanity-proof friends! Why? Becaue your a Demilich! You eat people's souls and keep them in your blinged-up eyeballs! THAT'S WHY.

Curious
2011-01-26, 03:21 PM
Quoting the Forgotten Realms Wiki;



Becaue your a Demilich! You eat people's souls and keep them in your blinged-up eyeballs! THAT'S WHY.


Demilichs: the pimps of the afterlife. :smallbiggrin:

Essie
2011-01-26, 03:22 PM
Why do you necessarily have to be a humanoid skull as a demilich? I'm sure there are cooler bones/cooler skeletons to be.

Curious
2011-01-26, 03:25 PM
Because not many non-humanoids are capable or willing to put in the effort to advance themselves all the way to epic level, and then give up everything that makes life worth living so that you can live forever.

TheGeckoKing
2011-01-26, 03:28 PM
That and Liches can only be Humanoids, and Demiliches are an upgrade of said template (Liches only). The only way round this is Death Master (Dragon Comp), which has a capstone that explicitly states you become a Lich, no matter your typing. Aberration, Magical Animal, Fae, the lot. Although, a DemiDracolich would just be awesome.

I should become a Demilich, being an Epic Lich (In Avatar at least) and all, but I've got no rocks shiny enough to use as my Blinged-Up Eyeballs.

Curious
2011-01-26, 03:29 PM
Capture a cacodaemon, make it eat someones soul, and then use those as your eyes.

Qwertystop
2011-01-26, 03:29 PM
Why do you necessarily have to be a humanoid skull as a demilich? I'm sure there are cooler bones/cooler skeletons to be.

Yeah, be a Demilich that has his soul in his anvil (one of those tiny inner-ear bones). You'd be smaller than Dimunitive, probably, but that doesn't affects spells at all!

Or, before becoming a lich, fossilize a speck of earwax, and go into that when you transition to Demilich. :smallbiggrin:

EvilJoe15
2011-01-26, 03:32 PM
Why do you necessarily have to be a humanoid skull as a demilich? I'm sure there are cooler bones/cooler skeletons to be.

Now I have the mental image of a blinged out pelvis flying around stealling people's souls. Awesome.

TheGeckoKing
2011-01-26, 03:37 PM
Yup. He Hip Bumps to paralyze you, then Pelvic Thrusts you to trap your soul.
Or, a Leg that fly-kicks the souls out of you and into his blinged out knee cap.

In fact, we could have a cabal of 206 different Demiliches that collectively make an epic spell that allows them to combine into an Demilich Skeleton!!

Qwertystop
2011-01-26, 04:23 PM
Yup. He Hip Bumps to paralyze you, then Pelvic Thrusts you to trap your soul.
Or, a Leg that fly-kicks the souls out of you and into his blinged out knee cap.

In fact, we could have a cabal of 206 different Demiliches that collectively make an epic spell that allows them to combine into an Demilich Skeleton!!

no spell needed, just float in concert.
They could even pretend to be a lich with lots of jewlery!

Czin
2011-01-26, 04:27 PM
Yup. He Hip Bumps to paralyze you, then Pelvic Thrusts you to trap your soul.
Or, a Leg that fly-kicks the souls out of you and into his blinged out knee cap.

In fact, we could have a cabal of 206 different Demiliches that collectively make an epic spell that allows them to combine into an Demilich Skeleton!!

206 times 21=<4306. You would have an entity with a caster level and amount of HD of at least 4306. Your average epic level batman wizard would quite frankly $*1* brixs at the sight of an entity like that.

TheGeckoKing
2011-01-26, 04:28 PM
Would that make them a Bling-Lich Collective? Someone's gotta make this a template. :smallcool:

Benly
2011-01-26, 04:36 PM
I know there's a published demilich somewhere who is a hand rather than a skull, since he wanted to be able to write things down whenever he felt like it. And I know I've heard the "cabal of Voltron demiliches" idea before.

Katana_Geldar
2011-01-26, 05:10 PM
From what I understand, Acererak became a demilich as he wanted to become a god, to replace Vecna.

Does he also torture his demonic father?

The Githyanki queen (forget her name) wants to do this for the same reasons, I think.

Czin
2011-01-26, 05:16 PM
From what I understand, Acererak became a demilich as he wanted to become a god, to replace Vecna.

Does he also torture his demonic father?

The Githyanki queen (forget her name) wants to do this for the same reasons, I think.

Acererak didn't want to replace Vecna, he wanted to emulate him, his path to godhood was to bring his spirit to the negative energy plane and control it, thus giving him absolute dominion of all negative energy and thus all the undead, every turn and rebuke, every inflict spell, and so on. And no, I don't think Acererak tortured his demonic father. But Acererak was indeed a huge d*** so I don't think it would be beyond him.

Vlaakith is the name of the Githyanki Lich Queen, she wants to become a god by consuming enough souls to attain deity status, but she has yet to even become a Demilich and is only level 24 so she's a long way off (Acererak was in the upper twenties levelwise last time I saw him statted out, Vecna was in the mid to upper thirties before the gods were all made into non-epic multiclassers in 3.0)

As far as Greyhawk is concerned, the only Lich who has ever become a god was Vecna, and that is because the man was so fiendish a plotter that he could give Asmodeus a run for his money. Though he never became a demilich for whatever reason.

Katana_Geldar
2011-01-26, 05:19 PM
Acererak (the demilich version of him anyway) is level 27 in 4E. And he almost gets to be a god...well, depending on the players :smallwink:

Czin
2011-01-26, 05:24 PM
Acererak (the demilich version of him anyway) is level 27 in 4E. And he almost gets to be a god...well, depending on the players :smallwink:

He was always almost about to reach his apotheosis. That's how things have been since the very first edition (no not that kind) of return to the tomb of horrors, he was just about to merge with the negative energy plane before the players screw him over (though he did become a vestige since he was too attatched to the negative energy plane to be claimed by the abyss, which is the typical fate of liches upon their final destruction.) Unlike his master Vecna, Acererak simply wasn't a magnificent enough bastard to attain his goal.

Even when Vecna's attempt to become the one and only god failed after he was beaten by a plucky band of adventurers during his rampage as a massively powerful greater deity, he still came back and still became a lesser god (he was originally a demi-god in rank), so ultimately he pulled off a truly astounding Xanatos gambit.

Acererak? No such luck.

Katana_Geldar
2011-01-26, 05:27 PM
Two words: God golem. :smallbiggrin:

snoopy13a
2011-01-26, 06:40 PM
He was always almost about to reach his apotheosis. That's how things have been since the very first edition (no not that kind) of return to the tomb of horrors, he was just about to merge with the negative energy plane before the players screw him over (though he did become a vestige since he was too attatched to the negative energy plane to be claimed by the abyss, which is the typical fate of liches upon their final destruction.) Unlike his master Vecna, Acererak simply wasn't a magnificent enough bastard to attain his goal.



Isn't that the main reason not be a demilich? That sooner or later, some band of plucky heroes will defeat you :smalltongue: ?

Although, it seems that the bad guys are only attacked when on the verge of greatness. So, I suppose if a demilich strives for mediocrity then it'll be fine :smallwink:

pffh
2011-01-26, 06:44 PM
Isn't that the main reason not be a demilich? That sooner or later, some band of plucky heroes will defeat you :smalltongue: ?

Although, it seems that the bad guys are only attacked when on the verge of greatness. So, I suppose if a demilich strives for mediocrity then it'll be fine :smallwink:

Like being part off a medschool anatomy skeleton for a couple of hundred years for ****s and giggles.

Czin
2011-01-26, 06:46 PM
Isn't that the main reason not be a demilich? That sooner or later, some band of plucky heroes will defeat you :smalltongue: ?

Although, it seems that the bad guys are only attacked when on the verge of greatness. So, I suppose if a demilich strives for mediocrity then it'll be fine :smallwink:

If you have problems with heroes, you can just hide out in the Negative Energy plane, very few people will bother with the effort of trekking through an endless expanse of very hostile void to find one demilich.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2011-01-26, 06:56 PM
If a creature with no bones used that one Dragon Magazine class that just makes you a lich no-matter what, then became a demilich, would it just be just be a floating collection of pure, evil bling?

Qwertystop
2011-01-26, 07:05 PM
If a creature with no bones used that one Dragon Magazine class that just makes you a lich no-matter what, then became a demilich, would it just be just be a floating collection of pure, evil bling?

Like what? The only ones I can think of that have no skeletons are:
A) Nonsentient (such as Oozes), and therefore could not take class levels or become liches in the normal way.
B) Have Exoskeletons, which would just take the place of normal bones.
C) Have shells (I'm sure there's some kind of sentient snail out there in some sourcebook). See B.

Also, since all soft tissue vanishes when they become a lich, anything without some kind of hard structure would just disappear.

Czin
2011-01-26, 07:06 PM
Like what? The only ones I can think of that have no skeletons are:
A) Nonsentient (such as Oozes), and therefore could not take class levels or become liches in the normal way.
B) Have Exoskeletons, which would just take the place of normal bones.
C) Have shells (I'm sure there's some kind of sentient snail out there in some sourcebook). See B.

Also, since all soft tissue vanishes when they become a lich, anything without some kind of hard structure would just disappear.

Actually, D&D can't really decide whether you become mummified or skeletonized upon achieving lichdom. My guess is that becoming a Lich does nothing to halt decomposition on it's own, and most Liches don't bother with preserving their flesh, so it just rots off or mummifies depending on the climate they live in.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2011-01-26, 07:38 PM
So, then, if one's boneless lich (I'm sure some kind of aberration doesn't have bones) mummified itself, then stopped that preservation upon becoming a demilich it could, theoretically, turn into evil, endead bling.

Am I right or should I stop playing D&D forever because if I can't be a hateful maelstrom of villainous incarnate fabulous, I don't want to be anything.

AslanCross
2011-01-26, 08:07 PM
Why do you necessarily have to be a humanoid skull as a demilich? I'm sure there are cooler bones/cooler skeletons to be.



“Demilich” is a template that can be added to any lich. It uses all the lich’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. A demilich’s form is concentrated into a single portion of its original body, usually its skull. Part of the process of becoming a demilich includes the incorporation of costly gems into the retained body part; see Creating Soul Gems, below.

Size
Medium-size and Large liches become Diminutive demiliches, Huge liches become Small demiliches, Gargantuan liches become Medium-size demiliches, and Colossal liches become Large demiliches.

You still use your own skull, apparently. A draco-demilich would be an awesome sight.

"I am...the God of Heavy Metal Album Covers."

Czin
2011-01-26, 08:11 PM
You still use your own skull, apparently. A draco-demilich would be an awesome sight.

"I am...the God of Heavy Metal Album Covers."

If this forum had a rep system, I'd give you a +1.

Epic, win.

Qwertystop
2011-01-26, 08:27 PM
“Demilich” is a template that can be added to any lich. It uses all the lich’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. A demilich’s form is concentrated into a single portion of its original body, usually its skull. Part of the process of becoming a demilich includes the incorporation of costly gems into the retained body part; see Creating Soul Gems, below.
Emphasis on Usually. It can be done to any other body part.


Size
Medium-size and Large liches become Diminutive demiliches, Huge liches become Small demiliches, Gargantuan liches become Medium-size demiliches, and Colossal liches become Large demiliches.
What would happen if the lich decided to go into a smaller-than-skull bone? For example, the bone in a human's little toe is probably a different size category than their skull. Does the toe grow?

Squark
2011-01-26, 08:34 PM
I think you have to choose a sufficiently sized group of bones. For instance, the ELH itself has an example of a demilich who appears as a jewel encrusted hand that spends its day writing for some giant planar society that collects books. Even the skull is actually like 3-5 bones.

Erom
2011-01-26, 08:36 PM
I DMed a brief campaign where the Bigger Bad was a demi-draco-lich. He wasn't a campaign opponent, he was basically the Satan analog- part of the pantheon, the thing the Big Bad Cleric was praying too.

I was going to make them players fight a summoned avatar eventually but the campaign didn't last that long.

It was pretty Metal, anyway.

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-26, 08:36 PM
So, then, if one's boneless lich (I'm sure some kind of aberration doesn't have bones) mummified itself, then stopped that preservation upon becoming a demilich it could, theoretically, turn into evil, endead bling.

Am I right or should I stop playing D&D forever because if I can't be a hateful maelstrom of villainous incarnate fabulous, I don't want to be anything.

I don't think Kaorti have bones?

Although there is the whole "deathly allergic to reality" problem.

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-26, 08:46 PM
Re: Holy Smite metamagic.

"I'm sorry, what? Nightsticks? Oh, you mean that pile of worthless firewood on your belt now that I just threw 2 Disjunctions on you?"

Cleric: :smallfurious: !

And the Demi-lich that was a hand was a woman. She was tasked with maintaining "The Book"(of every arcane spell ever).

Marnath
2011-01-26, 08:48 PM
I don't think Kaorti have bones?

Although there is the whole "deathly allergic to reality" problem.

This allergy, is it severe enough to cause dea.... nevermind. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:


I had a thought just now, how does a demilich wizard prepare spells? Does he store his spellbook near his phylactery too? Otherwise that would affect his operational range, since it would be akward to drag a book around by your teeth.

Czin
2011-01-26, 08:52 PM
This allergy, is it severe enough to cause dea.... nevermind. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:


I had a thought just now, how does a demilich wizard prepare spells? Does he store his spellbook near his phylactery too? Otherwise that would affect his operational range, since it would be akward to drag a book around by your teeth.

They probably transcend the need for spell books. Besides, Telekinesis is an at will ability for demiliches.

Marnath
2011-01-26, 08:55 PM
They probably transcend the need for spell books. Besides, Telekinesis is an at will ability for demiliches.

Requires concentration though right? Means you'd have to drop it in the mud or whatever to fight.

Czin
2011-01-26, 08:58 PM
Requires concentration though right? Means you'd have to drop it in the mud or whatever to fight.

Any spellcaster worth his/her/it's salt would bring it's concentration check up as high as possible, allowing them to always pass a defensive casting check, and high enough to ensure that only truly absurd amounts of damage would break it's concentration if it were unable to cast defensively.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-01-26, 11:27 PM
In fact, we could have a cabal of 206 different Demiliches that collectively make an epic spell that allows them to combine into an Demilich Skeleton!!

Been there, done that

(...sort of. See second spoiler.)

CycloneJoker
2011-01-27, 01:07 AM
I know this has already been said, but near-unlimited arcane power for the cost of a barely used body, AND you can retain the benefits of, say, having hands? If I was a lich, I'd sign up. Heck, I'd consider it if it was an actual option in real life.

Coidzor
2011-01-27, 01:09 AM
In order to join the great experiment of forging Demilich Voltron. :smallcool:

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-27, 04:37 AM
For Demilich Voltron: Yes
For the Evulz: BOO YA!
For ARCANE POWA: HECK YEAH

FelixG
2011-01-27, 06:30 AM
This one is obvious, really. When you're a mega-powerful ultra-being with phenomenal cosmic power (without the itty-bitty living space), you do stuff like this purely because you can. It's the equivalent of people-watching in GTA4. When there isn't anything left to do, don't do anything. Just watch the ants, going about their business. Godhood is wasted on the mortal, so enjoy your vacation! You've spent all of your existence getting to this point, so why let a silly thing like "centuries passing on the table of a theives guild" get in your way. Might make an interesting story for you to tell the next age of humanity after the universe collapses and the gods fade into oblivion and you keep on keepin' on like it never happened. And when life springs into being again, take comfort in knowing that you'll find yourself on that table in the theives guild aaaaalllll over again, giggling madly because you've heard this all before, an infinite number of times. Just observing the universe on repeat. It's all cyclical, and it never, ever changes. Except you. The gem-encrusted, older-than-time skull on the table is the only thing that changes. Irony is an incredible thing, when you can watch it in action.

You know, I can stop reading this thread right...about...here...this is just the perfect answer to the question :smallbiggrin:

Myth
2011-01-27, 06:36 AM
IF there wasn't an "Always Evil" tag on Lichdom (a ritual that requires horrid acts of evil) I'd see no reason for any high level caster NOT to become a Lich and then, as soon as the wealth investment allows, become a Demilich.

Considering other options for immortality (Elemental Savant 10 and the likes), bar shenanigans or Epic spells, it's quite the bargain onto itself. And if you really had to do things with a body, say cuddle with someone, Shapechange can help with that. At Epic levels you can either prepare a Persisted Shapechange (easier with MM reducers, Arcane Thesis and the likes) or just design an Epic spell that makes you into a permanent human, but still retaining all the Demilich goodness.

All pluses and no minuses? Remember in-character you don't know or care what LA is. If you suddenly become a Demilich at CLVL 30 your Fighter buddy will seem even more pathetic. That's not your concern however.

FelixG
2011-01-27, 06:39 AM
IF there wasn't an "Always Evil" tag on Lichdom (a ritual that requires horrid acts of evil) I'd see no reason for any high level caster NOT to become a Lich and then, as soon as the wealth investment allows, become a Demilich.


The Libris Mortis has stats and a template for the "good" lich :smallbiggrin:

BobVosh
2011-01-27, 07:11 AM
Also if elven one of the Faerun books has a good lich named archlich. I want to say in magic of faerun.

Noneoyabizzness
2011-01-27, 07:42 AM
The only Demilich I remember in fiction anywhere showed up in a Lankhmar novel. Though there it was a gem-covered skull stolen from a grave, and it mostly just sat around on a table in the thieves guild pretending to be not alive for giggles.

And there wasn't any real explanation why it did it.

this kind of cover combined with invisible spell (from cityscape) to misdierect where the spells that occassionally haunt thelair, or guild, or town hall or whathaveyou, makes for an fun entire campaign mentally controllign everything toss in soem telepathy via 1 level of mindbender and its a scary world

Alleran
2011-01-27, 07:43 AM
Also if elven one of the Faerun books has a good lich named archlich. I want to say in magic of faerun.
Baelnorn (elven liches blessed by the Seldarine - among other things, they don't have a phylactery) and Arch-liches are both detailed in Monsters of Faerun, I believe.

Amiel
2011-01-27, 11:31 AM
The demilich is an exceedingly dangerous monster with a deceptive prefix. It yet retains the capacity to cast the arcana it would cast as a lich of its HD; it will invariably know spells that allow it to interact with manipulate the world around it in a manner befitting its cruelty and ego.
Its at-will astral projection possibly features a humanoid appearance and form.


Demiliches also have a sense of community. Some demiliches shape themselves into a "colony of sheltered philosophers", their forms merging into a skeleton; each demilich a bone in that skeleton's body.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2011-01-27, 06:23 PM
I think the latter is now known as "demilich Voltron."

AslanCross
2011-01-27, 06:30 PM
Given all of this talk about Astral Projection and combining robots, I'm beginning to think of a cadre of five demiliches who project teenage versions of themselves and transform into color-coded suit-wearing warriors who then have a huge combining version of themselves.

Czin
2011-01-27, 06:32 PM
Given all of this talk about Astral Projection and combining robots, I'm beginning to think of a cadre of five demiliches who project teenage versions of themselves and transform into color-coded suit-wearing warriors who then have a huge combining version of themselves.

http://files.sharenator.com/i_see_what_you_did_there_RE_Anyone_else_see_it-s450x545-95526-580.jpg


+1 Nice one.

JaronK
2011-01-27, 06:46 PM
I wonder, would the DLs immunity to magic stuff mean he couldn't haunt shift himself into something powerful? Because that would be pretty darn awesome. A demilich haunt shifted into a Dwarvencraft Quality Blue Ice golem-like body with a high caster level Harden spell applied to it would be one heck of an enemy.

JaronK

Czin
2011-01-27, 06:48 PM
I wonder, would the DLs immunity to magic stuff mean he couldn't haunt shift himself into something powerful? Because that would be pretty darn awesome. A demilich haunt shifted into a Dwarvencraft Quality Blue Ice golem-like body with a high caster level Harden spell applied to it would be one heck of an enemy.

JaronK

I think that a demilich can cast the spells it's otherwise immune to on itself.

Thrawn183
2011-01-27, 07:21 PM
The Conflagration Ooze has an Int of 9, MM 3. It would nicely fill the slot for a creature with no skeleton that could then, through that class, become a lich.

nolispe
2011-01-27, 07:38 PM
Re the OP: Mainly to stuff with players, I think. I remember when the DM threw one at us at ECl 8. Grrrr...

DaragosKitsune
2011-01-27, 07:41 PM
The Conflagration Ooze has an Int of 9, MM 3. It would nicely fill the slot for a creature with no skeleton that could then, through that class, become a lich.

By the description of the two templates, it would probably end up looking like a rather small and dry patch of ooze.

AslanCross
2011-01-27, 07:45 PM
By the description of the two templates, it would probably end up looking like a rather small and dry patch of ooze.

That burns.

"Okay, who threw up on the desk?"
"...that vomit is burning."

blazingshadow
2011-01-28, 01:10 AM
how would a demilich made from a dry lich look like? would it have 5 limbs because of the 5 phylacteries?

zenon
2011-01-28, 02:46 AM
It is also noteworthy that a normal lich has 1 phylactery, whereas a demilich has 7 which means that it is much harder to kill permanently.

Coidzor
2011-01-28, 03:46 AM
^: Normally it's effectively 9, but only one can be hidden away from the demilich.
how would a demilich made from a dry lich look like? would it have 5 limbs because of the 5 phylacteries?

Demiliches don't have limbs or merge their phylactery with their bodies into a a single bone/skull.

What Demiliches get though that is nifty is soul gems, 8 of 'em, which they do incorporate into their physical forms. These do not overwrite or replace the phylactery of a normal lich, so they don't interact with the 5 phylacteries of a dry lich.

So a dry lich made into a demilich would have 5 phylacteries + 8 soul gems that must be destroyed in order to off it permanent-like.


Creating Soul Gems

Liches have phylacteries that allow them to reappear 1d10 days after their apparent death, as do demiliches. Demiliches also have eight soul gems, each of which acts like a phylactery in its own right.

Czin
2011-01-28, 05:12 AM
It is also noteworthy that a normal lich has 1 phylactery, whereas a demilich has 7 9 which means that it is much harder to kill permanently.

Fixed. Or more accurately, a Demilich can have eight soul gems which can function as phylacteries in addition to whatever it had as a normal lich.

FelixG
2011-01-28, 06:05 AM
I am given towonder, say the Demi liches phylactery is destroyed, then 8 of the 9 gems are destroyed, he reforms with the last one, could he then rebuild the phylactery and the other 8 gems?

Czin
2011-01-28, 06:06 AM
I am given towonder, say the Demi liches phylactery is destroyed, then 8 of the 9 gems are destroyed, he reforms with the last one, could he then rebuild the phylactery and the other 8 gems?

He couldn't rebuild the phylactery as per the Libris Mortis, but I think he could remake the soul gems.

JaronK
2011-01-28, 06:34 AM
I've always wondered about the feeding on souls effect they do. Feeding implies they're getting some nourishment or power or something, yet successfully eating a soul doesn't seem to do anything for them, nor do they need to do it regularly or anything. So what's going on there?

JaronK

FelixG
2011-01-28, 06:37 AM
I've always wondered about the feeding on souls effect they do. Feeding implies they're getting some nourishment or power or something, yet successfully eating a soul doesn't seem to do anything for them, nor do they need to do it regularly or anything. So what's going on there?

JaronK

IIRC there is a way Epic level spell casters can drain life force (XP) from people to invent their own spells, perhaps thats what the Demi Lich does?

Marnath
2011-01-28, 01:47 PM
I've always wondered about the feeding on souls effect they do. Feeding implies they're getting some nourishment or power or something, yet successfully eating a soul doesn't seem to do anything for them, nor do they need to do it regularly or anything. So what's going on there?

JaronK

I don't need to eat chocolate, and nothing beneficial happens when I do. But my motivations for doing so are pretty obvious. :smalltongue:

Aharon
2011-01-28, 02:26 PM
A tangent:
How do immunities work in D&D?
Can you drop them, as you can SR? Otherwise the demilich could not use any buff on himself - no Shapechange, no Telekinesis...

This might be another reason why they just lie around on tables - it seemed like a good idea at the time to be immune to magic, but they forgot about the ability to move :smallbiggrin:

Its' description states that it uses Harm to heal itself, so that would be one factoid pointing towards them being able to target themself. Is there anyplace where this is clearly laid out? The Rules Compendium, perhaps?

TheGeckoKing
2011-01-28, 02:39 PM
Hrrrrrrm. Dry Lich + Death Master + Demilich =

5 Phylacteries from Dry Lich
1 from Death Master's Lichdom
8 Soul Gems from the Demilich

That's 14 Frakking Phylacteries. He'd have to be about Level 40 to get all of them, but once he did.......dang. Imagine if the Voltron Demiliches all had 14 phylacteries each. We're almost at the closest we can get to Chuck Norris levels, dammit!

Czin
2011-01-28, 02:59 PM
Hrrrrrrm. Dry Lich + Death Master + Demilich =

5 Phylacteries from Dry Lich
1 from Death Master's Lichdom
8 Soul Gems from the Demilich

That's 14 Frakking Phylacteries. He'd have to be about Level 40 to get all of them, but once he did.......dang. Imagine if the Voltron Demiliches all had 14 phylacteries each. We're almost at the closest we can get to Chuck Norris levels, dammit!

Then give them all the god-blooded (vecna) template so that everyone else won't even remember they (both the demiliches and the phylacteries) exist.

Jair Barik
2011-01-28, 03:15 PM
Realisticly I can see a demi-lich trying to convince a player that it is the head of vecna.
"Look, all you have to do is lop off your own head and attatch me to the stump, and then you achieve God hood! Of course I'm Vecna's head! See no eyeball in my sockets"

Squark
2011-01-28, 03:21 PM
What about the gem eye?

Amador
2011-01-28, 03:30 PM
No one said you had to have 2 gem eyes.

Qwertystop
2011-01-28, 03:31 PM
No one said you had to have 2 gem eyes.

Yeah, you only need to have 8 gems, no specification on where they go.