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abadguy
2011-01-26, 03:47 AM
If a crusuder does not go for a standard Combat Reflexes/Lockdown build, are there other ways to play him to be an effective tank?

The crunchy bits


I'm starting a new RL campaign as a Crusader 4 and based on a 30 pt buy,

My initial stats are thus:
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 14

After racial bonuses and Lvl 4 stat (half mino template)
Str 19
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 14

(High Wis is for cleric -> RKV + Ordained Champion)

So with my low Dex, I can only get one extra AoO. Should I prioritize Dex instead of Cha? To me, no point pushing it past 12 as I'm wearing full plate.

Cha would help in Will Saves (Crusader class feature) and 1 more TU attempt for RKV Divine Impetus and possibly Divine Metamagic with Quicken Spell

The idea is to get all the fighter feats I need thru Ordained Champion and use the rest for spellcasting feats like DMM with Quicken and Extend, Extra Turning, Practised Spellcaster and so forth.

The party consists of many squishies: a ranger/scout Swift Hunter, an Elan warlock, a sorceror and another cleric in fullplate.

The 8 on Int locks out Combat Expertise - Improved Trip

Should I still go Combat Reflexes?


My instincts tell me to go for Power Attack, Imp. Bull Rush, Knockback and later, Imp Sunder for Combat Brute and Shock Trooper for other bull rushing shenanigans and going Crusader 2/Fighter 2 for the Dungeoncrasher ACF.

Myth
2011-01-26, 07:49 AM
If you want to make an ubercharger or dungeoncrasher/diver there are better classes for it. The Crusader's strength is in taking damage and making people target him. I believe Robilar's Gambit/Goad/Thicket of Blades and a reach weapon are commonly suggested.

T.G. Oskar
2011-01-26, 08:01 AM
Well, perhaps not tank, but a good support build works.

Stuff like Martial Spirit (and if you're good, eventually Aura of Triumph), the healing strikes (from Crusader's Strike to Strike of Righteous Vitality), plus White Raven maneuvers make for a solid semi-healer/semi-buffer character. This aids a lot if going the RKV path, since you can do much more decent healing and provide some action economy with your buffs.

Alternatively, since you're using Cleric spellcasting, you could use PHB II and the Mark of Judgment/Mark of Doom spells. Mark of Judgment allows you to provide some minor healing when a character succeeds on an attack, but it requires a successful Will saving throw; Mark of Doom, on the other hand, doesn't require such thing AND causes damage each time the creature makes an offensive move (so it hurts mostly hydras, characters that abuse action economy if only in the slightest of ways, and people with Combat Reflexes). Daunting Strike and intimidation builds are also fine for lockdown, but they are poor against mindless creatures and creatures immune to fear effects, and it only works with some effort; however, if successful, you can keep them cowering and thus completely halted, effectively doing a different form of tanking.

Essence_of_War
2011-01-26, 08:48 AM
If you're planning on playing the character through 4-6 more levels, I'd say take Combat Reflexes because if you play it for several levels, you may get dex boost items and that could give you an acceptable # of AoO's.

I'm assuming you're a Goliath? It looks like you have +4str +2con...
As long as you have Powerful Build or are large I'd say go with the Bullrush/Knockback strat. It can be almost as good as the tripping build.

Pechvarry
2011-01-26, 12:57 PM
You could try focusing on white raven + healing and talk to your DM before the campaign begins about threat. If he recognizes that your character needs to die in order for the rest of the party to start dying, then bad guys will start targeting him after 1-2 rounds.

Really, this is one of my biggest beefs with D&D tanking (the others being the necessity of reach and worthlessness of shields): high DEX to actually tank, but it goes against the flavor of many tankers, as well as the crunch of heavy armors.

abadguy
2011-01-26, 09:17 PM
I believe Robilar's Gambit/Goad/Thicket of Blades and a reach weapon are commonly suggested.

Yeah I read about most of them, hence my title. Most of those suggestions all revolve around Combat Reflexes one way or another, I was hoping for a different perspective.

Besides Goad are there any "taunt" style mechanisms available as a feat? Like how DDO's intimidate actually draws aggro ... that is very lovely mechanically.


Well, perhaps not tank, but a good support build works.

Noted on the suggestions, thanks!


If you're planning on playing the character through 4-6 more levels, I'd say take Combat Reflexes because if you play it for several levels, you may get dex boost items and that could give you an acceptable # of AoO's.

*rubs chin* really? Even though I'm boosting Dex purely just for AoOs? I'll prolly be running (well, lumbering) around in full plate and the extra Dex is wasted, so to speak. Campaign is expected to go up to Level 16.

Even if we do run into Dex boost items, it would prolly go to the scout/ranger or maybe even the warlock who would get better mileage out of a +Dex item.




Really, this is one of my biggest beefs with D&D tanking (the others being the necessity of reach and worthlessness of shields): high DEX to actually tank, but it goes against the flavor of many tankers, as well as the crunch of heavy armors.

I KNOW RIGHT? Its so counter intuitive to do so. And if I dump my Dex, I become relegated to a "support" character. *shakes head*

Psyren
2011-01-26, 10:09 PM
Besides Goad are there any "taunt" style mechanisms available as a feat? Like how DDO's intimidate actually draws aggro ... that is very lovely mechanically.


It's also pretty silly... being intimidating makes you less likely to get attacked, not more...

Pechvarry
2011-01-26, 11:38 PM
It's also pretty silly... being intimidating makes you less likely to get attacked, not more...

Intimidating people seem threatening. Intimidate skill makes you seem more threatening than you are >> higher target priority. It makes darn good sense.

As for tanking w/out combat reflexes, the sad truth is you pretty much need homebrew and house rules. A feat to get Wis bonus additional AoOs, for example. Good luck getting rid of the ridiculous reach necessity.

For a system supposedly built to allow endless character combos, it's pretty sad how every tank in 3.5 is a huge dude with a goofy chain.

MeeposFire
2011-01-27, 02:31 AM
Unfortunately that is what happens when the mundane has to compete for space with characters with access to power that can change the way the universe works. Only very certain areas in the game are left that really have enough strength to stay relevant in the game.

abadguy
2011-01-27, 05:13 AM
Well, thats really just theorycraft. A good DM (like mine) does take this into account, its just that a melee player also has to work harder to be relevant.


OK! So! Final opinions!

Combat Reflexes, yay or nay?

If yay, please advise on the feat tree!
Current Feat progression plan:
1: Power Attack
Flaw: Imp. Bull Rush
3: Knockback
6: Leap Attack/Divine Justice/Divine Might (this feat is quite open but leaning toward something to up my damage output)
7: (bonus Fighter feats from Ordained Champion) Combat Brute, Shock Trooper, Imp. Sunder

If Combat Reflexes is a go, would you advise to shift 2 points from Cha to Dex?