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Craulnober
2011-01-26, 07:12 AM
I'm currently playing a elf rogue in a party that doesn't include any fighters, only spellcasters. That leaves my character and a cleric getting in all the melee.
I've taken TWF and Finesse and my high DEX helps me a lot.

It's now time for me to pick-up my next feat and unfortunately I cannot seem to decide.
I don't have the necessary BAB for Improved TWF or for Staggering Strike. I'll be later getting Knowledge Devotion.
Craven is not an option (I'm good and I don't think my DM would allow it).
Improved Initiative may be a choice, but it seems to be very poor for a rogue feat.

Are there any other feats that you could suggest? (even non-melee feats that you could consider worth-taking)
Is an Exotic weapon proficiency and a thinblade worth the feat?

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-26, 07:20 AM
Martial Study: Wolf Fang Strike?

Martial Study: Some Shadow Hand Maneuver, so you can take Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance and then Shadow Blade?

Craulnober
2011-01-26, 07:40 AM
My character's background and role is not very "compatible" with martial arts unfortunately. Also Daring Outlaw is ruled out, as I'm not interested in swashbuckling.

Ernir
2011-01-26, 07:41 AM
What level are you now, and what feats do you already have? Are you considering to multiclass or PrC out?

Craulnober
2011-01-26, 08:06 AM
I just reached Rogue 6. I mentioned my feats at the first post: TWF and Weapon Finesse. Wis is my dump stat, Dex is my best.
I don't think I'll be multiclassing (as I'll have an XP penalty in any other class than wizard because I'm an elf). I'll be getting a custom-made PrC in my next level which will give me eventually two more feats (although with a restricted choice) so it's an only-rogue choice.

LansXero
2011-01-26, 08:14 AM
What is your character background? Do you have any info on that PRC? perhaps knowing what youŽll get from it you could choose a feat that will compliment that :O

Craulnober
2011-01-26, 08:25 AM
Here's the short background version. Grew up in Elventree. Left later in order to adventure and found himself in the Bloodstone Lands. He is now in the scout/spy network of the King of Damara (that's the PrC coming later). He is gathering whatever piece of information he can get and being in these hostile lands he has to fight often.
Skills like Bluff, Knowledge (Local), Gather Information are important too.
The PrC is a combo of other PrC like Zhent and Harper Scout.

Thespianus
2011-01-26, 08:31 AM
Depending on what weapons you are using, maybe Telling Blow (PHBII) could be fun if you're not sure what to do?

It gives you the ability to add your Sneak Attack damage on a confirmed Critical Hit. It's not a very optimized feat, but it tends to make critical hits all that more fun. :)

If you're going to spend a lot of time on the front line, maybe Improved Toughness (+1 HP / character level) would be worth your while?

A melee rogue who don't multiclass have a fairly limited amount of choices, if you don't focus heavily on Use Magic Device.

Curmudgeon could probably help you alot (and tell you why my recommendations above are useless ;) )

Craulnober
2011-01-26, 08:39 AM
Telling blow would be nice, but of course only with a rapier. Although I saw in another topic that in numbers it's not that good a feat really.
I was also thinking about an elven thinblade, but it requires an exotic feat and I'm not sure if it's worh it.
Are you sure about Improved Toughness? I thought it gives a fixed number of HP, 3 or 4.

true_shinken
2011-01-26, 08:40 AM
Seconding Martial Study: Rogafufuken Wolf Fang Fist Strike
Not enough Dragonball references, I say! Simply not enough!
Improved Buckler Defense sounds like an option as well. I like Surprise Riposte, but that's not for everyone and probably doesn't fit your build.
I'd also like to invite everyone to my movement: say no to Telling Blow! This feat is not good for the standard Rogue and is a step backwards in the most fun thing about Rogues - removing their Dex bonus to AC.

Thespianus
2011-01-26, 08:47 AM
Telling blow would be nice, but of course only with a rapier. Although I saw in another topic that in numbers it's not that good a feat really.
The numbers aren't that good, but I just love the flavor of it. But each to his own, not everyone enjoys chanting "Crit! Crit! Crit!" as soon as you roll a Threat. ;)


Are you sure about Improved Toughness? I thought it gives a fixed number of HP, 3 or 4.
The standard feat "Toughness" gives a fixed 3 HP, it sucks.

The Improved Toughness feat (Complete Warrior, I think) gives 1 HP/ level, basically upping your Hit Die one step.

Amphetryon
2011-01-26, 08:49 AM
Telling blow would be nice, but of course only with a rapier. Although I saw in another topic that in numbers it's not that good a feat really.
I was also thinking about an elven thinblade, but it requires an exotic feat and I'm not sure if it's worh it.
Are you sure about Improved Toughness? I thought it gives a fixed number of HP, 3 or 4.
Elven Thinblade is almost certainly not worth it.

Improved Toughness is 1HP/level; Toughness is 3HP total.

Consider Knowledge Devotion, if your Knowledge skills are important to you; it will provide a useful boost to your ability to be the melee-er.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-26, 08:54 AM
Telling blow would be nice, but of course only with a rapier. Although I saw in another topic that in numbers it's not that good a feat really.It really depends on how often you can score a critical hit (taking a keen enchantment or having the improved critical feat makes it a must), but yes, it's not that good.

I was also thinking about an elven thinblade, but it requires an exotic feat and I'm not sure if it's worh it.It's never worth for an one-point damage increase.

Are you sure about Improved Toughness? I thought it gives a fixed number of HP, 3 or 4.Improved Toughness is a different feat from Toughness, although it's not that awesome. However, at level 6, this will already give you double the amount of normal Toughness, if you have a +2 fortitude bonus and you would take it.
Take a look at Tome of Battle anyway, especially the Shadow Hand-school, which does help with rogue-types. Just refluff these martial arts maneuver, everyone can do it.
If you're dead-set on not taking it, I'd suggest you take a look at Complete Adventurer or Complete Scoundrel for feats.

Thespianus
2011-01-26, 08:55 AM
Consider Knowledge Devotion, if your Knowledge skills are important to you; it will provide a useful boost to your ability to be the melee-er.

He mentioned he'd get Knowledge Devotion later, in the OP?

Travel Devotion? It goes well with the Elf and TWF theme, too...

Greenish
2011-01-26, 09:06 AM
He mentioned he'd get Knowledge Devotion later, in the OP?Rogues have only one knowledge as a class skill, though. Even with the extra one from the KD itself, he'll be hoping for rather homogenous enemies.

EWP usually isn't worth it, but there's Kusari-Gama, light reach weapon which can also attack adjacent, in DMG. If you want more weapons options, Improved Weapon Familiarity (CW or RoS, I forget) gets you all your racial weapons: elven quickblade, elven thinblade, elven lightblade, elven courtblade, elven prettyblade and so forth. None of them are really worth it, though (except maybe courtblade for two-hander finessable).

Being Good doesn't mean you have to be brave. :smallwink:

drakir_nosslin
2011-01-26, 09:10 AM
Complete Scoundrel (I think) has a lot of feats based on your sneak attacks that might be worth looking into. Gives you a bit more variety in melee.

Ruinix
2011-01-26, 09:19 AM
Combat Reflexes (PH) --> Vexing Flanker (PH2) --> Adaptable Flanker (PH2). i know is 3 feats but the first is almost a must with THAT dex being a melee, and the AF it totally worth the price.

and if DR/Cristal Keep materia is allowed, then with this combo take Backstab (DR340) it totally awesome with CR + AF
and ofcourse, also in DR/Cristal Keep, Sneak Attack of Oportunity (DR340) let you add ur SAs to the AoO ^^

true_shinken
2011-01-26, 09:30 AM
Being Good doesn't mean you have to be brave. :smallwink:
Better part of valor, better part of valor! :smallamused:
He probably means his DM won't let him use stuff from Champions of Ruin, though.

Ruinix
2011-01-26, 09:43 AM
almost forgot. i know, yo alredy said you have a self made PrC but still, take a look of Master of Mask (C.Scou p52), i think is what u r looking for and have a pleanty of resources

Noneoyabizzness
2011-01-26, 09:50 AM
would agree with the combat reflex tree to improve you aoos.

of course if I were goign to rework it as a melee rapier dual weilder...

rogue 1 dodge
swashbuckler 1 weapon finesse
r2 mobility
sw2
r3
sw3 daring outlaw
dread commando 1-2
dc3 twf
dc 4-5
swashbuckler4 improved twf
rogue4/ swash 5
rogue 5 Spring attack
tempest 1-5 greater twf


5d6 sneak attack, +2 dodge bonus to ac, good init boosts to the whole party no armor check penalties in light armor, less penalties to twf and +int to dmg even early on has worth

edit if you want to try and go rogue only with this concept go dodge them mobiltiy at 9th slip into dread commando fo the init and armor check boosts,pick up improved twf @ 12th, spring at 15th when back to rogue and last 5 im tempest if your goal is still to be an absurdly ambidextrious twf

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-26, 10:16 AM
Alternatively, skill tricks can be good. You're Rogue, you have lots of skill points - buy a few skill tricks and then a feat that gives you even more.

There's one that lets you make someone flat-footed once per combat as a swift action, I think. But don't quote me on that.

Also, maneuvers don't have to be fluffed as formal martial arts. You could take one of the supernatural strikes and fluff it as an innate magical power you inherited from your ancestors, for instance - maybe you're part Drow. Or take one of the mundane strikes and it could just be a trick you worked out.

Cyrion
2011-01-26, 10:18 AM
None of the elven racial weapons are really worth spending an exotic weapon feat on. However, if the flavor attracts you, check with your DM and see if he'll let you retrain your unused longsword proficiency for one of the elven weapons.

Human Paragon 3
2011-01-26, 10:23 AM
Could you take cloak dance? The concealment may help you stay alive on the front lines.

bartman
2011-01-26, 10:24 AM
If you like TWF, then Complete Adventurer has Oversize TWF, allows you to dual weild rapiers for the -2/-2. It does require STR 13, so you may not meet the pre-reqs. Another option i go with for DEX heavy builds, and this is dependant on your DM allowing 3rd party material. Alderac entertainment put out a book called "Feats". It is 3.0 era, but it has a feat called "Superior Finesse". It requires combat expertise and weapon finesse, but allows you to do DEX to damage instead of STR.

These are usualy must have choices for my rogues, and although I am by no means an optimizer, i do pretty well handling my own in my group.

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-26, 10:28 AM
You can get Dex to damage in first-party. Shadow Blade - requires you to know a Shadow Hand stance, and lets you add Dex to damage (in addition to Str) on any Shadow Hand weapon.

So it's not exactly brilliant for someone with a Strength of 6, but... If you have Dex 18, it's still a net +2 damage.

Human Paragon 3
2011-01-26, 10:33 AM
Another thought: encourage yours spellcasters to summon creatures. They will provide extra melee support and give you lots of flanking buddies!

If you feel you have to do this yourself, you can take the water devotion feat in complete champion to let you occasionally summon a water elemental flanking buddy. You can ask for your DM's help working into your story, maybe a sylph enchants your wine skin or something.

Or take leadership and grab a fighterly cohort.

true_shinken
2011-01-26, 10:48 AM
Just noticed something - Weapon Focus (whip), Pyrokineticist 1 and Dead Eye.
Now you have Dex to damage without ToB.

Thespianus
2011-01-26, 12:30 PM
Rogues have only one knowledge as a class skill, though. Even with the extra one from the KD itself, he'll be hoping for rather homogenous enemies.
I throught I responded to this, but the Internet ate it: He mentioned that he's going into an unspecified PrC, I figured that PrC got some more Knowledge skills.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-26, 12:34 PM
Craven is not an option (I'm good and I don't think my DM would allow it).
You might want to reconsider that. Craven, though it's in Champions of Ruin, is a general feat and has no association with evil.

Craven is as important to a Rogue as Power Attack is to a Fighter.

true_shinken
2011-01-26, 12:38 PM
You might want to reconsider that. Craven, though it's in Champions of Ruin, is a general feat and has no association with evil.

Craven is as important to a Rogue as Power Attack is to a Fighter.

It's something his DM doesn't want. Kind of hard to reconsider that.

Greenish
2011-01-26, 12:38 PM
I throught I responded to this, but the Internet ate it: He mentioned that he's going into an unspecified PrC, I figured that PrC got some more Knowledge skills.Maybe, maybe not. Harper Agent has all knowledges, Zhentarim Spy none.

true_shinken
2011-01-26, 12:47 PM
Maybe, maybe not. Harper Agent has all knowledges, Zhentarim Spy none.

Isn't it a homebrew PrC? He mentioned Damara; there are no Damaran themed prcs, IIRC.

Greenish
2011-01-26, 01:16 PM
Isn't it a homebrew PrC?Yes, it is. More specifically:
The PrC is a combo of other PrC like Zhent and Harper Scout.

Thespianus
2011-01-26, 01:28 PM
Yes, it is. More specifically:

Yeah, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. If he only get one Knowledge-skill, Knowledge Devotion won't rock anyone's world.

Then again, even without having the different Knowledge skills as class skills, it can still be worth spending 2 skill points on getting at least 1 rank in all of them.

With 1 rank and ok Int, you'll always get a +1 to all attacks and damage against all creatures, and if you manage a check of 16 or higher (with 1 rank and Int 14, that means rolling 13 or better on the die) you get +2.

It ain't bad even without higher ranks in the knowledge skills, just not quite as awesome.

Craulnober
2011-01-26, 03:02 PM
Wow... I didn't expect so much interest.
Thanks for all the replies. I'll try to answer.

- Improved Toughness. You were right, I mixed it up with another version I had seen online (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Improved_Toughness_%283.5e_Feat%29)
I'll consider it, as I get into melee and my CON is not something to be proud about it.

- Elven thinblade. I'll not take it after all the negative comments. :smallsmile:

- Knowledge devotion. I already have plenty of ranks in Local (because of my role). I'll be getting as free Knowledge Nature. This means I can use it against humanoids and monster humanoids, which seems a good deal. Also with the "Collector of stories" skill trick I'll probably get a decent bonus. As I said before, I'll probably take it from my PrC and not now.

- The Combat Reflexes tree leading to Adaptable Flanker. It seems decent enough, however I can't say I have that much flanking support from my lazy spellcasting comrades. Maybe a conjuration spell from them could help me.

- Craven. I don't think the DM would allow it. The description of the feats in CoR is: "Champions of Ruin introduces several feats of pure cruelty and
evil. Characters devoted to dark gods or vicious means can use
these feats to enhance their wicked power." Also, I am not at all a coward, my character is a bit trigger happy, so it's not suitable. Maybe if I could convince the DM to change -2 to fear to something else.

- Master of Masks. It is very interesting and tempting. Thanks for the advice.

- Skill tricks. Acrobatic backstab is one I like a lot.Collector of stories too. Also "Listen to this", "Second Impression" and "Twisted charge" seem nice.

- Oversize TWF. Unfortunately I'm STR12 .

- Knowledge Devotion (again). I've INT14, so it's +2 and with Collector of Stories this will jump to +7. And a small question about this, maybe I'm not getting it. Before each battle against a human-elf-halfling etc, I'll just make a check in order to see what my bonus will be? It seems very good.

Sorry if I forgot someone, there were lots of replies. I read them all.

Thespianus
2011-01-26, 03:46 PM
- Knowledge Devotion (again). I've INT14, so it's +2 and with Collector of Stories this will jump to +7. And a small question about this, maybe I'm not getting it. Before each battle against a human-elf-halfling etc, I'll just make a check in order to see what my bonus will be? It seems very good.
It is fantastic. Also, note that as long as you sink 2 skillpoints into all the other relevant Knowledge skills to get 1 rank in them, you get at least +1 to attack and damage against all other creatures as well. A very cheap bonus :)

Craulnober
2011-01-26, 04:01 PM
Yes, that's a nice idea too. Just taking these knowledges (is there a plural? :smallbiggrin:) will give me a +1.

I also will get the Penetrating Strike ACF in place of trap sense.

I'll probably talk with my DM hoping to get a modified Craven, with a -2 to something else. If that doesn't happen though I'll have to take something else which still I haven't found.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-26, 04:21 PM
It's something his DM doesn't want. Kind of hard to reconsider that.
"I don't think my DM would allow it" isn't the same as knowing. Craulnober's "I'm good" leads me to believe there are some mistaken beliefs about Craven at work here, and the mistake could extend to the DM's viewpoint.

Taking Craven away from a Rogue character who expects to be fighting is like taking Power Attack away from a Fighter or Barbarian, or taking (all) metamagic away from a spellcaster. It's really that important. Without Craven I'd recommend staying out of melee entirely.

Edit: If the concern about Craven is simply because of the additional vulnerability to fear, you could couple it with the Uncanny Bravery ACF (Dragon Magic, page 14). That sacrifices uncanny dodge for immunity to dragon frightful presence and a +4 bonus vs. fear. The combination of Craven (-2) and Uncanny Bravery (+4) will have the Rogue braver than normal, at the expense of delaying uncanny dodge until 8th level.

The Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208) makes it clear that you're still dealing sneak attack damage when you flank those normally immune. It's functionally the same as the non-Lightbringer Penetrating Strike in Dungeonscape ─ just with a clearer explanation. And because it is sneak attack, you halve your sneak attack dice but don't halve the Craven bonus. This means against (for example) a target with 100% fortification, comboing Penetrating Stike with Craven you'll deal close to 70% of the normal sneak attack damage.

Craulnober
2011-01-26, 07:07 PM
Curmudgeon, if you ask me I don't think Craven is evil or vile :smallsmile:
However in a previous post I quoted the introduction from the CoR feats which says: ""Champions of Ruin introduces several feats of pure cruelty and
evil. Characters devoted to dark gods or vicious means can use
these feats to enhance their wicked power."
You can't deny that if a DM decides to prohibit this feat from Good-aligned rogues he is not without cause.

Moreover, I don't care for the -2 vs fear as a matter of numbers. I just say that my character is not a coward at all, contrarily he is a bit reckless and always happy to get in a fight. So it doesn't go well with my role-playing.
That's why I'll propose an alteration in the feat, with something else as a drawback which suits me. Thanks for this ACF you propose.

Also, thanks for the Penetrating Strike clarification. Stacking Craven damage is excellent.

And another question. Is taking ranks in Use magic device worth it? I don't have a CHA bonus and I won't get any ranks from synergies so I'll have to manually put in ranks. If the DC for a wand is 20, I suppose I'll have to spend many points in UMD in order to have a good chance to use a wand.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-26, 07:29 PM
However in a previous post I quoted the introduction from the CoR feats which says: ""Champions of Ruin introduces several feats of pure cruelty and evil. Characters devoted to dark gods or vicious means can use these feats to enhance their wicked power."
You can't deny that if a DM decides to prohibit this feat from Good-aligned rogues he is not without cause.

I can and do deny that. Several (more than 10) of the feats in that book are explicitly evil, but that doesn't apply to Craven. Having good intentions and lacking bravery are completely compatible qualties, and I'd say those actually apply to most people.

This seems to be a case of guilt by association.

Craulnober
2011-01-26, 07:38 PM
It probably is a matter of interpretation.
several: Being of a number more than two or three but not many: several miles away
An indefinite but small number; some or a few: Several of the workers went home sick.

If it was "several of the feats are of pure cruelty etc." in CoR I'd be more sure. However, I'll have it a go with my DM and see how it fares.

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-26, 07:39 PM
Note: the feat does not have the [Vile] descriptor, and does not have an Evil alignment as a prerequisite.

It is not an evil feat.

Craulnober
2011-01-26, 07:51 PM
You both are a great help in building my arguments, thanks
:smallbiggrin:

What about Use Magic Device?

Elfin
2011-01-26, 08:02 PM
It's pure awesome. Spells are just better than melee, and so utilizing UMD is one of the greatest tools in the rogue's arsenal. WBL can sometimes be a problem, though.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-26, 08:29 PM
Use Magic Device is one of the top Rogue skills, and for some builds may be the best one. (Hide with Hide in Plain Sight, and a high enough Tumble to make DC 40 all the time are pretty spiffy, too.) This means with enough skill the Rogue can make use of almost any piece of magical equipment. Found a Holy Avenger? Well, you can emulate all the class features of a level 1 Paladin, and activate the HA exactly as a Paladin would. Being able to use, rather than sell for half price, means your Rogue can get better return for magical treasure.