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View Full Version : Highest Possible AC at level 20 [3.5]



Kansaschaser
2011-01-26, 10:41 AM
What is the highest possible AC that you can achieve by level 20? Show your work.

Here are the restrictions I'm working with.

1. 32 point buy system.

2. Normal Wealth by Level.

3. Must be a non-caster class, except for Bard, Paladin, and/or Ranger.

4. Try to stick with a race with no level adjustment. If there is a level adjustment, then only +1.

5. Has access to normal magic items from the DMG, Magic Item Compendium, Race Books, and Complete Books.

6. Try not to use feats, classes, or prestige classes from Dragon Magazines or Dungeon Magazines. I have a hard time getting the DM to agree to their use. A few exceptions might be possible.

What is the AC? What is the Flat-footed AC? What is the Touch AC? Miss Chance? Immunities?

Callista
2011-01-26, 10:46 AM
Play Pun-Pun and wish for infinite dexterity.

There, now that that's out of the way, let's get some realistic builds...

Kansaschaser
2011-01-26, 10:54 AM
Play Pun-Pun and wish for infinite dexterity.

There, now that that's out of the way, let's get some realistic builds...

I'd like to play Pun-Pun, however this is not Forgotten Realms. Plus, the DM is the one that showed me the Pun-Pun build years ago. So I doubt he'd let that fly in his game.

Eldariel
2011-01-26, 11:01 AM
Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms/Warshaper/Fist of the Forests/Deepwarden should prolly break 100 rather easily. Bard/Sublime Chord would obviously break 100 without trying; Shapechange is good. I dunno how much good AC is for you, tho; doesn't allow you to kill anyone, protect anyone or even protect you against magic. At the very least you'd need some saves to go with it. But yeah, I'd prolly go with a Con-stack on a Wildshape chassis for ease of use.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-26, 11:25 AM
Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms/Warshaper/Fist of the Forests/Deepwarden should prolly break 100 rather easily. Bard/Sublime Chord would obviously break 100 without trying; Shapechange is good. I dunno how much good AC is for you, tho; doesn't allow you to kill anyone, protect anyone or even protect you against magic. At the very least you'd need some saves to go with it. But yeah, I'd prolly go with a Con-stack on a Wildshape chassis for ease of use.

Wow, that was a completely 180 from what I was thinking. I was trying to build Fighter/Crusader/Paladin and wear really heavy armor.

As for the Bard/Sublime Chord, I can't do that combo since that is basically a full casting class. We can't have anything that gets more casting than a basic bard, ranger, or paladin.

grimbold
2011-01-26, 11:28 AM
my friend once told me you could get a max of 108 ac
i have no clue how to do it though

Douglas
2011-01-26, 11:29 AM
Wow, that was a completely 180 from what I was thinking. I was trying to build Fighter/Crusader/Paladin and wear really heavy armor.
Heavy armor gets you a quick boost at low levels, but if you really want super high AC at high levels it just gets in the way. The highest ACs are generally achieved by combining several special abilities that boost AC, most of which require that you use little or no armor, and may also involve extremely high dexterity bonuses - which heavy armor negates.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-26, 11:43 AM
Heavy armor gets you a quick boost at low levels, but if you really want super high AC at high levels it just gets in the way. The highest ACs are generally achieved by combining several special abilities that boost AC, most of which require that you use little or no armor, and may also involve extremely high dexterity bonuses - which heavy armor negates.

Anyone have a build as an example?

Oh, I should also mention that Leadership is allowed. I just checked, but I didn't think it was worth mentioning.

true_shinken
2011-01-26, 11:44 AM
Record is 362 by Otto the Bugbear, IIRC.

The Rabbler
2011-01-26, 11:45 AM
if I remember correctly, the record was somewhere around 130 ish AC. I believe monk, deepwarden, fist of the forest, a monk's belt, and a lot of potions were involved.

In less insanely-specific build terms, I think an... Apostle of Peace (?) from BoED combined with the saint template can get you pretty high up there.

Swordsage'd; my memory was completely off.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-26, 11:55 AM
Record is 362 by Otto the Bugbear, IIRC.

Is Otto the Bugbear's build on here somewhere?

Eldariel
2011-01-26, 12:03 PM
Record is 362 by Otto the Bugbear, IIRC.

That's mostly a spell stack tho; something not all that applicable here for obvious reasons. Also, I thought it was 302 unless they one-upped it?

Kansaschaser
2011-01-26, 12:06 PM
That's mostly a spell stack tho; something not all that applicable here for obvious reasons. Also, I thought it was 302 unless they one-upped it?

Well, then that won't work either. I guess it's back to the drawing board for me. :smallsigh:

Eldariel
2011-01-26, 12:11 PM
Well, then that won't work either. I guess it's back to the drawing board for me. :smallsigh:

Honestly, the Wildshape Con stack I suggested? Really simple, really easy. Wildshape into a form with high Con (there's plenty), use abilities that add to Con (Rage, Warshaper bonus, etc.), get Con to AC multiple times, get Wilding Clasped magic items for the relevant types of AC bonus you're missing, go to town.

Fist of the Forests [Complete Champion] 1/Deepwarden 2 [Races of Stone] gets you Con to AC twice. You also get Con to Fort-saves normally, and Con to Will-saves with Steadfast Determination. And Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 10 [Complete Adventurer] gets you 15th level Wildshaping out of a great list of forms. 16 HD may be worth going for; consult the Master of Many Forms Bible (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528526/updated_Master_of_Many_Forms_Bible__official_wild_ shape_rules) for ease of reference.

Czin
2011-01-26, 12:20 PM
Heavy armor gets you a quick boost at low levels, but if you really want super high AC at high levels it just gets in the way. The highest ACs are generally achieved by combining several special abilities that boost AC, most of which require that you use little or no armor, and may also involve extremely high dexterity bonuses - which heavy armor negates.

But heavy armor makes you look and feel [email protected]$$, style has to count for something. :smalltongue: Also, freedom of movement enchhanted armor makes dexterity bonus limits a moot point though many special abilities do indeed prohibit the use of armor.

dextercorvia
2011-01-26, 12:24 PM
But heavy armor makes you look and feel [email protected]$$, style has to count for something. :smalltongue: Also, freedom of movement enchhanted armor makes dexterity bonus limits a moot point though many special abilities do indeed prohibit the use of armor.

Then use a Hat of Disguise.

true_shinken
2011-01-26, 12:33 PM
That's mostly a spell stack tho; something not all that applicable here for obvious reasons. Also, I thought it was 302 unless they one-upped it?

Late in 3.5, Otto came back and trumped his own record. Dunno if it is actually 362. Can't find the thread, though.

ericgrau
2011-01-26, 12:35 PM
IIRC you can google old AC challenges and it's around 60 pretty easily. +10-15 if you allow stacking defending weapons. 75/90 with LA races pretty easy, and then with special tricks as posted you can go a lot higher. None of these are pratical though as they assume pure AC focus.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-26, 12:35 PM
Honestly, the Wildshape Con stack I suggested? Really simple, really easy. Wildshape into a form with high Con (there's plenty), use abilities that add to Con (Rage, Warshaper bonus, etc.), get Con to AC multiple times, get Wilding Clasped magic items for the relevant types of AC bonus you're missing, go to town.

Fist of the Forests [Complete Champion] 1/Deepwarden 2 [Races of Stone] gets you Con to AC twice. You also get Con to Fort-saves normally, and Con to Will-saves with Steadfast Determination. And Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 10 [Complete Adventurer] gets you 15th level Wildshaping out of a great list of forms. 16 HD may be worth going for; consult the Master of Many Forms Bible (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528526/updated_Master_of_Many_Forms_Bible__official_wild_ shape_rules) for ease of reference.

Ok, I'm looking for the Wildshaper Ranger. Where can I find that class feature?

Pechvarry
2011-01-26, 12:38 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger

Czin
2011-01-26, 12:41 PM
Then use a Hat of Disguise.

Doesn't fool tactile senses, or blindsighted creatures, or true sight users. Ridiculously Ostentatious armor needs to be physical so you can awe everyone regardless of their senses (unless they have X-ray vision, but a little bit of gold plating can block that :smallwink: ).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-26, 12:42 PM
Dwarf, Wild Shape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ Deepwarden 2/ Wizard 5/ anything 1

Improved Familiar: Shocker Lizard, with its at-will electric attack.
Wild Shape: Shambling Mound, MoMF gives you its extraordinary special qualities including its electricity immunity ability which increases your Con score every time you're hit by an electrical attack.
Have your shocker lizard zap you repeatedly, round after round, hour after hour.... Your Con score is nigh-infinite, and you get your Con bonus to AC, so your AC is now nigh-infinite. I'm pretty sure there more efficient ways of accomplishing this, but this is was the easiest to think of.

Eldariel
2011-01-26, 12:46 PM
Dwarf, Wild Shape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ Deepwarden 2/ Wizard 5/ anything 1

Improved Familiar: Shocker Lizard, with its at-will electric attack.
Wild Shape: Shambling Mound, MoMF gives you its extraordinary special qualities including its electricity immunity ability which increases your Con score every time you're hit by an electrical attack.
Have your shocker lizard zap you repeatedly, round after round, hour after hour.... Your Con score is nigh-infinite, and you get your Con bonus to AC, so your AC is now nigh-infinite. I'm pretty sure there more efficient ways of accomplishing this, but this is was the easiest to think of.

Well, you could just persist Energy Substituted Creeping Cold with DMM and just take like Druid into Enhanced Wildshape but that kinda flies in the face of the "no full caster"-restriction. Still, Shambling Mount Con-bonus stack is prolly the easiest loop to reach, so there's something if wanting to go much above 100 (though that shouldn't be necessary).

Cog
2011-01-26, 12:56 PM
Neither Wizard nor Druid are available, as per the OP.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-26, 01:02 PM
It uses Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger), and Wizard can be substituted for any arcane spellcasting class if you want to spend a feat on Obtain Familiar. That means Duskblade, Suel Arcanamach, even Hexblade can be used to replace those Wizard levels.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-26, 01:03 PM
I think I might be able to take a feat that allows me to pick up a familiar. So I might be able to do the Shambling Mound trick with a shocker lizard.

Eldariel
2011-01-26, 01:22 PM
It uses Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger), and Wizard can be substituted for any arcane spellcasting class if you want to spend a feat on Obtain Familiar. That means Duskblade, Suel Arcanamach, even Hexblade can be used to replace those Wizard levels.

Or, y'know, Sword of the Arcane Order for Ranger. It could theoretically work, at any rate; it's a bit nebulous.


EDIT: I was able to dig up Otto's (originally Urnsk's) 302 build from Web Archive here (http://web.archive.org/web/20080416115547rn_1/forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-439367) (Web Archive is being a bit unstable though, so I'm copypasting it):
First, Otto-

Polymorph means you would loose the racial Cha to AC; Polymorph is like alter self, which means you lose all racial abilities, since Polymorph doesn't specify that you retain special qualities.

Second, my build. Thanks where due for the idea for psionic powers, broadblade short sword, and Allied Defense; I doubt I'd have come up with those by myself.


Dunkirk the Untouchable
Male Half Fey Star Elf Saint Monk 1/Fighter 2/ Psychic Warrior 2/Cleric 1/Tattooed Monk 5/ Variant Wizard 1/Arcane Duelist 2
Lawful Good

Normal Form (Pre-aging) *note: the character uses a Tome of Clear Thought +3 before taking the Variant Wizard at ECL 17 to qualify for Combat Expertise
Str: 8
Dex: 13
Con: 6
Int: 10
Wis: 21
Cha: 28

Max’ed AC form (Pit Fiend [Draconic Polymorph], Fine [Minute Form], Charm Domain, Bellflower to Cha, Bellflower to Wis, Bellflower to Dex, Mountain Tattoo,
Str: 35
Dex: 64 (+27)
Con: 29
Int: 16
Wis: 64 (27)
Cha: 70 (+30)


Relevant Equipment (Cost: 721353 gp)
+5 Defending Broadblade Short sword (50,375gp)
+4 Defending Broadblade Short sword (50,375gp)
Tome of Leadership and Influence +5 (137,500 gp)
Tome of Understanding +5 (137,500 gp)
Tome of Clear Thought +3 (82,500 gp)
Cloak of Charisma +6 (36,000 gp)
Wand of Quickened Divine Power, CL 18 (67500 gp)
Ring of the Scaled Miniature* (79800 gp)
Psychic Circlet of Protection* (25,650 gp)
Periapt of Cooperation * (54600 gp)

* These items are detailed at the end of the build

Relevant Skills:

Tumble (5)
Perform: Dance (5)
Knowledge: Religion (5)
Use Psionic Device (1+)
Use Magic Item (1+)

Feats
-Nymphs Kiss (Exalted) (Level 1)
-Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk 1)
-Improved Grapple (Monk 1)
-Endurance (Level 3)
-Dodge (Fighter 1)
-Mobility (Fighter 2)
-Servant to The Heavens (Level 6)
-Intuitive Attack (Exalted) (Psychic Warrior 1)
-Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Broadblade Short Sword (Psychic Warrior 2)
-Leadership (Level 9)
-Divine Shield (12)
-Combat Expertise (Variant Wizard 1)
-Improved Combat Expertise (Level 15)

Class Abilities
-Wisdom to AC
-Balance Domain (Wisdom to AC)
-Charm Domain (+4 unnamed bonus to Charisma)
-Bellflower Tattoo (Cha to an ability; 3/day, 5 round duration)
-Mountain Tattoo (+4 unnamed to Con and Wisdom)
-Dragonfly Tattoo (+3 Dodge to AC)
-Cha to AC

Spells and Powers cast through Items
Divine Power (CL 18)
Draconic Polymorph (CL 19)
Minute Form (CL 19)
Force Shield (ML 19)
Inertial Armor (ML 19)
Thicken Skin (ML 19)

Relevant Ability Scores:

Dexterity: 63(+26)
27 (Pit Fiend form)
08 (Minute Form)
28 (Bellflower; Enhancement)

Wisdom: 60(+25)
08 (Base)
08 (Point Buy)
02 (Half-Fey)
02 (Saint)
04 (Mountain Tattoo)
05 (Tome of Understanding)
03 (Age)
28 (Bellflower; Enhancement)

Charisma: 67(+28)
08 (Base)
02 (Racial)
10 (Point Buy)
04 (Half-Fey)
04 (Saint)
03 (Age)
04 (Level Adjustment)
05 (Inherent)
06 (Cloak of Charisma)
04 (Charm Domain)
02 (Warchief)
15 (Net gain from Bellflower; Enhancement)

Order of Perparation: Action (duration)
Round 1: Manifest Inertial Armor (19 hours)
Round 2: Manifest Thicken Skin (190 minutes)
Round 3: Manifest Force Screen, Activate Bellflower Tattoo: Apply to Cha (19 minutes; 5 rounds)
Round 4: Activate Charm Domain, Activate Mountain Tattoo (1 minute; 5 rounds)
Round 5: Use Wand of Quickened Divine Power, Use Periapt of Cooperation, Activate Bellflower Tattoo: Apply to Wis (19 rounds; 19 rounds; 5 rounds)
Round 6: Use Ring of the Scaled Miniature, Activate Bellflower Tattoo; Apply to Dex (19 minutes; 1 minute; 5 rounds)
Round 8: Use Balance Domain; Fight Defensively; activate Dragonfly Tattoo* (1 round; N/A; 5 rounds)

* Dragonfly Tattoo is activated during the action granted by Marshal Cohort


Adding it all up:
# (Source) [Type]

+10 (Base)[Unnamed]
+26 (Dexterity)[Unnamed]
+25 (Wisdom; Monk ability) [Unnamed]
+25 (Wisdom; Saint ability) [Insight]
+25 (Wisdom; Balance Domain) [Unnamed]
+28 (Charisma; Arcane Duelist) [Unnamed]
+23 (Pit Fiend Draconic Polymorph) [Natural]
+01 (Dodge) [Dodge]
+08 (Minute Form) [Size]
+08 (Augmented Force Shield) [Shield]
+28 (Divine Shield) [Unnamed]
+03 (Dragonfly Tattoo) [Dodge]
+01 (Monk/Tattooed Monk level 6) [Unnamed]
+03 (Fighting Defensively with Tumble) [Dodge]
+05 (Defending Broadblade Short Sword) [Unnamed]
+04 (Defending Broadblade Short Sword) [Unnamed]
+16 (Improved Combat Expertise) [Dodge]
+07 (Augmented Thicken Skin)
+13 (Augmented Inertial Armor)
+10 (Holy Star)
+29 (Various cohort bonii, listed below)
+04 (Broadblade Shortswords)

Total: 302



Custom Items

Ring of the Scaled Miniature

When not worn, this ring looks large enough to be worn only by a fine creature. When a Sorcerer tries to wear the ring, though, it resizes itself to fit perfectly. Once per day, a Sorcerer can activate the ring to cast a Quickened Draconic Polymorph followed immediately by Minute Form as a 19th level caster.

Prerequisites: CL 19, Draconic Polymorph, Minute Form, Forge Ring, Quicken Spell. Cost: 79800 gp ((19*9*400*.7+19*8*400*.75)*.7(Sorcerer’ s only)))


Psychic Circlet of Protection 25,650

This fine silver chain is worn around a wearer’s head, and is studded with several crystals. When a Psychic Warrior wears this Circlet, he is able to greatly augment his defensive capabilities. Once per day each, he is able to manifest Force Screen, Inertial Armor, and Thicken Skin, each augmented as if his manifester level were 19.

Prerequisites: ML 19, Force Screen, Inertial Armor, Thicken Skin, Craft Universal Item
Cost: 25,650 gp (((19*1*400+19*1*400*.75+19*19*1*400*.5) *1.5)*.7 (Psychic Warriors only))
Periapt of Cooperation

Sometimes, Clerics of differing deities must work separately from one another. The Periapt of Cooperation is a symbol of friendship given by Clerics of Mystra to some of the deities allies. In addition to this mundane function, the Periapt of Cooperation has the power to cast Holy Star once each day.

Prerequisite: CL 13, Holy Star, Cleric of Mystra, Craft Wondrous Items
Cost: 54600 (13*7*400*1.5)


When it comes to making an item, there is nothing in the rules that says you can’t set the minimum CL/ML for crafting an item to a certain level. And, since there are many items which DO Have a CL/ML higher than the minimum level for crafting an item, it seems reasonable that in crafting an item, one can set the level to whatever one wants; it just needs to be noted. All items will then function at the minimum caster level required to make the item.



Cohort:

Aemoni, The Defender

Male Star Elf Marshal 4/Bard 2/Warchief 2/Dread Pirate 9

Maxed out Charisma 32 (8 base + 2 Racial + 10 Point Buy + 3 Level Adjustment + 6 Cloak + 1 Tome + 2 War Chief)

Relevant Feats: Combat Expertise, Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse, Improved Combat Expertise, Allied Defense

Relevent Skills: Use Magic Device (Maxed)

Relevant Equipment: Wand of Divine Power, +6 Cloak of Charisma, Tome of Leadership and Influence +1

When his cohort is around, he gains: +1 Circumstance (Marshal), +11 (Fight to the Death), +17 (Allied Defense + Improved Combat Expertise)= 29

Ingus
2011-01-26, 01:30 PM
Take artificer. The class ends having 6th level spells, like bard.
You can also only go till having 4th level infusion, then changing.

Basicly, you're going after "Item Alteration" to alter for a while the kind of bonus a magic item gives. Then, after having bid the best +AC items on the market, start buy the cheapest one armor (enhancement) and, for the result, alter it in... let's say... epic, exalted, vile or... circumstance.
Circumstance bonus does stack if provided by different circumstances, so you just have to be creative. Your limit is set by your budget

randomhero00
2011-01-26, 01:38 PM
I don't remember the build but I got it up to the 70s or 80s by lvl 20 in one campaign where i played tank (plus miss chance). My DM wasn't happy with me :P

edit: except that it wasn't with heavy armor. It was with getting a ton of AC bonuses from different armorless classes and maxing dex.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-26, 01:48 PM
There's also Gloura (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) Cobra-Strike Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) 2/ Fighter 2/ Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 3/ Blackguard 3/ Mystic Wanderer 1, gets Cha to saves twice and Cha to AC four times with Ascetic Mage. You've also got options like Divine Shield, though I'd prefer Divine Might with 2h Power Attack + Dexterous Attack, Shock Trooper, and either Leap Attack or making a dive attack for double damage. Its level adjustment is too high for the OP's criteria, but it should have an AC over 100, insane save bonuses, and be capable of winning fights on his own.

Saint GoH
2011-01-26, 01:59 PM
Take a look at Can't Touch This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6970738&postcount=3). It doesn't use recursive loops like Shambling Mound/ Shocker Lizard, so you likely won't get a book thrown at you if play it.

It's relatively easy, interesting, and boy is it fun to be running around buck nekked with a relatively high AC. I used (with DM approval) Forsaker from Masters of the Wild (3.0) then snatched a VOw of Poverty because we were in a Low magic game. Suddenly my AC was in the 80's by 20. Worked Wonders.

randomhero00
2011-01-26, 02:05 PM
There's also Gloura (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) Cobra-Strike Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) 2/ Fighter 2/ Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 3/ Blackguard 3/ Mystic Wanderer 1, gets Cha to saves twice and Cha to AC four times with Ascetic Mage. You've also got options like Divine Shield, though I'd prefer Divine Might with 2h Power Attack + Dexterous Attack, Shock Trooper, and either Leap Attack or making a dive attack for double damage. Its level adjustment is too high for the OP's criteria, but it should have an AC over 100, insane save bonuses, and be capable of winning fights on his own.

eh I don't think you can get a bonus from the same stat multiple times.

Douglas
2011-01-26, 02:21 PM
eh I don't think you can get a bonus from the same stat multiple times.
Yes, you can. The only reasons for things to not stack are a) same bonus type or b) same source. Now you might be thinking "charisma is the source, of course it doesn't stack", but that's not how it actually works. The sources of AC in that build are Unearthly Grace, AC Bonus, Apparent Defense, and whatever Mystic Wanderer's ability is called. These are each different abilities, and the bonuses are all untyped or different types, so they all stack. The fact that the magnitudes of each ability's bonus are all determined by the same ability score is incidental and irrelevant to stacking.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-26, 02:25 PM
eh I don't think you can get a bonus from the same stat multiple times.

Multiple bonuses of different names stack, and dodge bonuses always stack with each other. Multiple unnamed bonuses from different sources stack.

Unearthly Grace and Dark Blessing are unnamed bonuses from different sources, they stack.

Monk AC bonus (unnamed), Unearthly Grace (deflection), Apparent Defense (dodge), and Glory of the Divine (sacred or profane) all stack with each other.

Havelock
2011-01-26, 02:44 PM
Depends on optimalization, I personally prefer not to go all that way, but eh.

32 point buy, Whisper Gnome Swordsage, starting stats:

10
18
16
14
14
6

With +5 to Dex from levels, +5 from tome, +6 from item. +6 from item and +4 from tome to Wis, it becomes like so:

10
34
16
24
14
6

That's 320k to get +12 Dex, +7 Wisdom. Buy a monk's belt and that's 38 flat.

Amulet of Natural Armor+5=50k
RoP+5=50K
Bracers of Armor+8=64k
ioun stone for +1 insight=5k

489k spent, 57AC. Straight swordsage, five minutes of thinking. You might want it to pass 70ish if you want to survive the Tarrasque, but I think 57 is good enough against most level appropriate encounters.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-26, 02:50 PM
Monk's Belt and Swordsage don't stack. Both class features are called "AC bonus" so they are considered unnamed bonuses from the same source.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-26, 02:51 PM
Take a look at Can't Touch This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6970738&postcount=3). It doesn't use recursive loops like Shambling Mound/ Shocker Lizard, so you likely won't get a book thrown at you if play it.

It's relatively easy, interesting, and boy is it fun to be running around buck nekked with a relatively high AC. I used (with DM approval) Forsaker from Masters of the Wild (3.0) then snatched a VOw of Poverty because we were in a Low magic game. Suddenly my AC was in the 80's by 20. Worked Wonders.

Oh wow. I like that Dwarf build also.

Now I'm debating the Dwarf "Can't Touch This" build or the Wild Shape into the Shambeling Mound build.

I think the infinite loop of the shambeling mound might get that character banned from the game, so I think I'll try out the Dwarf "Can't Touch This" build for now.


Monk's Belt and Swordsage don't stack. Both class features are called "AC bonus" so they are considered unnamed bonuses from the same source.

Are you sure? One of my friends wanted to play a Monk / Swordsage and get a high wisdom for a really good armor class.

Havelock
2011-01-26, 03:00 PM
Monk's Belt and Swordsage don't stack. Both class features are called "AC bonus" so they are considered unnamed bonuses from the same source.

By RAW, no, they come from the sources "class levels of monk" and "class levels of swordsage", which are different.

I wouldn't allow that trick in my games though, but that's rationality, not RAW.

Eldariel
2011-01-26, 03:05 PM
Oh wow. I like that Dwarf build also.

Now I'm debating the Dwarf "Can't Touch This" build or the Wild Shape into the Shambeling Mound build.

I think the infinite loop of the shambeling mound might get that character banned from the game, so I think I'll try out the Dwarf "Can't Touch This" build for now.

Wildshape actually gets higher AC than "Can't touch this", mostly because it's the same AC shell but with Wildshape thrown in for good measure. You don't need to turn into a Shambling Mound; Wildshaping gets you the Natural Armor and Con of the new form making for a huge stack. E.g. War Troll (only 12 HD) gets you 14 Natural Armor and 29 base Con (to which you can apply +6 from items, +4 from Warshaper, another +4 if you have a level of Barbarian and possibly +5 Inherents, though that depends on the DM) for a total of 43+ Con which translates into +16 Con or +32 AC just from Deepwarden and Fist of the Forests. Then you can get 14 more from the Natural Armor for +46 or 56 AC.

Then add items like Natural Armor enhancement (+5), Deflection (+5), Armor (+8) and, if you feel like it, Law Devotion, some source of Shield-bonus or some such. Even without them tho, you're already at 74 AC, and that's with a low-level form and without trying. Oh, and War Troll would also come with Regeneration + DR 5/Adamantine for another layer of defense; wear a Starmantle Cloak, pick up Elusive Target and you'll suddenly be exceedingly hard to damage. And a decent (kinda low but it's free) Spell Resistance tacked on. And a very respectable offense to go with it, with base 31 Strength and Dazing Blow (basically, hit opponents get Dazed unless they make a Con-based Fort-save; good news is that very few things are immune to Dazing).

jguy
2011-01-26, 03:08 PM
I wish I remembered where I saw this or exactly how they did it, but I saw a build with a googleplex of AC. The main character was a thrallherd psion with an absurd amount of followers. The 4 high level thralls also had a particular build and it focused around the Family or Community domain and merging all the thralls into on being. It was nuts

Douglas
2011-01-26, 03:10 PM
By RAW, no, they come from the sources "class levels of monk" and "class levels of swordsage", which are different.

I wouldn't allow that trick in my games though, but that's rationality, not RAW.
No, "class levels of X" is the source of the source of the bonus. Wisdom to AC comes from the ability "AC Bonus". The ability "AC Bonus" comes from class levels in Monk or Swordsage. Tracing the chain of sources back from bonus to class goes one too many steps.

Though if you really want to get strict about RAW, Swordsage's AC bonus doesn't work in no armor. To satisfy the requirements of both Monk and Swordsage AC bonuses, you would have to simultaneously be wearing light armor and no armor.

cd4
2011-01-26, 03:31 PM
I think this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19865126/Got_bored..._which_resulted_in_a_new_AC_record.?pg =1) might be the renewed thread about high AC. I think they managed to get over 1000 with a bit of fudging. They built an item with a CL of 800 and casting Owls Insight(SPC) on you 1/day. Then using Monk, Saint and Balance Domain to gain Wis to AC. They then added on a load of other bonuses but realised that you need to reduce the caster level of the item to pay for them.

Hawk7915
2011-01-26, 03:32 PM
A silly build of silliness: Introducing Perry Parryblade, Fencer Extraordinaire!:

Perry: Human Factotum 10/Duelist 10 (yes, Duelist. I am being serious. This is a serious post)

Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8
Level up bonuses: Int
Feats (6; 2 remaining): Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Kung Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk, Einhander, Improved Combat Expertise

Equipment:
+5 Defending Broadblade Shortsword (can have other bonuses)
Bracers of Armor +8
Gloves of Dexterity +6
Headband of Intellect +6
Tome of Intellect +1 (or more; being reasonable)
Tome of Dexterity +4
Monk's Belt

Skills: Need Perform 3 and Tumble 6 as prereqs for various feats and the Duelist class.

AC at level 20:
Base AC of 55: 10 + 7 dex +8 armor +5 deflection +5 natural + 10 (Int, from "Duelist" Canny Defense) + 10 int (from Belt + "Kung Fu Genius" feat).

Fighting Defensively is -4 Attack, +17 AC: +2 (normal bonus) +1 (5+ ranks in Tumble) +10 ("Elaborate Parry" ability) +2 (bonus from Broadblade Shortsword) +2 (bonus from "Einhander" feat).

Combat Expertise is -10 attack, +10 AC.

"Defending" weapon is -5 attack and -5 damage for +5 more AC.

"Cunning Defense" Factotum ability costs 1 inspiration for another +10 AC against one opponent.

Dodge bonus is another +1 :smalltongue:

Total AC: 98; not bad for only taking levels in the worst PrC in the game.

Modifications: This build only needs Duelist 7 and Factotum 3, although note you lose 6 AC from not taking a full Duelist 10 (both Canny Defense and Elaborate Parry are dependent on class levels). Those other levels could be spent on...
- Monk dip, if the DM rules that Monk Belt does not work that way.
- Cleric dip, to fuel War and Law devotion (although Arguably "Opportunistic Piety" fuels those feats).
- Rogue/Swashbuckler levels: Int to damage, free Weapon Finesse, sneak attack dice.
- Warblade levels, to add Int to more stuff and get maneuver progression and Diamond Mind stuff to protect your saves.

- It's up to you whether or not the +2 from a Broadblade is worth not getting the +2d6 damage and Arrow Deflection you would have for using a Rapier instead.

Other feats to consider: Elusive Target, Combat Reflexes->Robilar's Gambit, Font of Inspiration, Deadly Defense, Improved Feint (especially with sneak attack dice)

FMArthur
2011-01-26, 03:55 PM
If you want something for practical use, you might prefer to just find a target AC value that no one will realistically be able to hit without rolling a 20, and aim for that before focusing on other things. Like saves, which matter. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2011-01-26, 04:09 PM
If you want something for practical use, you might prefer to just find a target AC value that no one will realistically be able to hit without rolling a 20, and aim for that before focusing on other things. Like saves, which matter. :smalltongue:

100 is fairly solid. Generally, people who don't especially try to pump To Hit won't go much over +70 in the 20s (along with monsters) so AC of 100 gives you a comfortable Law Devotion-sized buffer for when opps make a bit of an effort, and maintains the "need 20 to hit".

I mean, you could easily go much higher but it's generally not worth the effort and, against opponents who can hit 100 reliably, ramping it up to 300 isn't like to do that much good either since they can probably either circumvent AC with auto-take 20s or whatever, or simply pump it to such ungodly numbers that it doesn't matter.

randomhero00
2011-01-26, 04:28 PM
Yeah, basically by the time you get to super high ACs you'd be fighting gods and such that auto hit.

Runestar
2011-01-26, 04:42 PM
Google "Team Solars". :smallcool:

DragonSinged
2011-01-26, 04:46 PM
Google "Team Solars". :smallcool:
Or just look at the sig. of the guy 6 posts above yours, 7 above this one?

Czin
2011-01-26, 04:47 PM
Google "Team Solars". :smallcool:

Team solar's main strong point if I remember correctly is that thanks to them being undead while also having regeneration, they are immune to damage (Undead can't be affected by nonlethal damage, regeneration turns what would otherwise be lethal damage into non-lethal damage, ergo they are immune to lethal damage) and are immune to pretty much all save or die spells. While they do have a very high AC, that's not their main source of untouchability.

Edit: Huh...I appear to be wrong, I could have sworn I read something about them being Necropolitans somewhere....

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-26, 04:57 PM
Yeah, basically by the time you get to super high ACs you'd be fighting gods and such that auto hit.

Deities don't auto-hit, they get their bonus-plus-twenty regardless of the die roll result, but it's not treated as a natural 20. They actually roll the die to see if it falls within their critical threat range, or to see if they actually get a natural 20 if their bonus-plus-twenty can't beat the target's AC. This is very explicitly stated but often misinterpreted.

Eldariel
2011-01-26, 05:32 PM
Team solar's main strong point if I remember correctly is that thanks to them being undead while also having regeneration, they are immune to damage (Undead can't be affected by nonlethal damage, regeneration turns what would otherwise be lethal damage into non-lethal damage, ergo they are immune to lethal damage) and are immune to pretty much all save or die spells. While they do have a very high AC, that's not their main source of untouchability.

Edit: Huh...I appear to be wrong, I could have sworn I read something about them being Necropolitans somewhere....

Team Solars is basically a solid Persistent Magic stack with the help of an Incantatrix.

Czin
2011-01-26, 05:35 PM
Team Solars is basically a solid Persistent Magic stack with the help of an Incantatrix.

Then what was the build that essentially rendered one immune to damage?

Douglas
2011-01-26, 05:38 PM
Google "Team Solars". :smallcool:
Sadly, most of their AC comes from stacking buffs, and the OP needs non-caster means of high AC.



Team solar's main strong point if I remember correctly is that thanks to them being undead while also having regeneration, they are immune to damage (Undead can't be affected by nonlethal damage, regeneration turns what would otherwise be lethal damage into non-lethal damage, ergo they are immune to lethal damage) and are immune to pretty much all save or die spells. While they do have a very high AC, that's not their main source of untouchability.

Edit: Huh...I appear to be wrong, I could have sworn I read something about them being Necropolitans somewhere....
While they do have regeneration, they are not immune to nonlethal damage. They can full heal at will (including a massive pile of temp hp) with a standard action, though.

They don't really have any single "main" source of untouchability, they just have so many specific sources of untouchability vs specific things that almost everything is covered.

Eldariel
2011-01-26, 05:38 PM
Then what was the build that essentially rendered one immune to damage?

Well, there's about 5-6 simple ways of going about that but the most competent "immune to everything"-build posted thus far is the Twice-Betrayer of Shar (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge:_The_Twice-Betrayer_of_Shar). You could combine it with Cheater of Mystra for even more fun. Though we don't speak of that.

Czin
2011-01-26, 05:43 PM
Sadly, most of their AC comes from stacking buffs, and the OP needs non-caster means of high AC.



While they do have regeneration, they are not immune to nonlethal damage. They can full heal at will (including a massive pile of temp hp) with a standard action, though.

They don't really have any single "main" source of untouchability, they just have so many specific sources of untouchability vs specific things that almost everything is covered.

So what was the regenerating Necropolitan build? Because I (or more correctly, the Queen of Diamonds Co-DM did) had that featured in one of my campaigns (to be worf effected by one of the big bads who smacked it with a Undeath to death spell.) And I remember getting the build here, and what I distinctly remember was that it involved shapechanging into a solar.

Tael
2011-01-26, 05:50 PM
Then what was the build that essentially rendered one immune to damage?

If by 'build' you mean two spells, then yes, Team Solars was also immune to death by damage. You may also be thinking of the Emerald Legion, which was Jemini Zero's army of multi-templated monstrosities, only killable by about 4 things in the universe, 3 of which were just things that got rid of their regeneration.

On topic, I believe the highest non-infinite AC is reached by Nanobots at almost 5000 (more like 4600 though).

Runestar
2011-01-26, 06:02 PM
Sadly, most of their AC comes from stacking buffs, and the OP needs non-caster means of high AC.

If he is in a party, I am sure the spellcasters can spare a few lower lv slots to buff him (if only because they have nothing better to spend those slots on anyways).

Else, your AC would pretty much be limited to eq, and maybe improved combat expertise (which in turn would make your attacks suck).

Dark_24
2011-01-27, 08:59 PM
I don't know if someone has say this, but how about a human saint monk with bow of poverty, that send your AC to the deep space

Reynard
2011-01-27, 09:43 PM
I don't know if someone has say this, but how about a human saint monk with bow of poverty, that send your AC to the deep space

If 'deep space' means 'caps out in the 30-40 range', then yeah.

If this is straight monk+template+VoP we're talking.

sonofzeal
2011-01-27, 09:48 PM
Halfling Saint Druid17/Monk1 with VoP can have pretty ridiculous AC, even before spells.

Tael
2011-01-27, 09:49 PM
If 'deep space' means 'caps out in the 30-40 range', then yeah.

If this is straight monk+template+VoP we're talking.

Indeed, VoP will never compare to the AC you can get from items when optimizing. The Saint Template is actually really good for pumping AC in a normal game, but it will never compare to the ridiculous shenanigans like Nanobots that hang out in TO for winning the title of "highest possible".

Zaq
2011-01-27, 09:50 PM
A Good Incarnate can get a pretty good AC with class features alone (Crystal Helm, Incarnate Avatar, and Incarnum Radiance all give nice AC boosts that apply to touch AC and flat-footed AC, and a feat for Wormtail Belt gives you a scaling source of natural armor). Might make a nice chassis on which to base one of the other methods listed.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-27, 10:11 PM
What is the highest possible AC that you can achieve by level 20? Show your work.

Here are the restrictions I'm working with.

1. 32 point buy system.

2. Normal Wealth by Level.

3. Must be a non-caster class, except for Bard, Paladin, and/or Ranger.

4. Try to stick with a race with no level adjustment. If there is a level adjustment, then only +1.

5. Has access to normal magic items from the DMG, Magic Item Compendium, Race Books, and Complete Books.

6. Try not to use feats, classes, or prestige classes from Dragon Magazines or Dungeon Magazines. I have a hard time getting the DM to agree to their use. A few exceptions might be possible.

What is the AC? What is the Flat-footed AC? What is the Touch AC? Miss Chance? Immunities?
I don't need to go all the way to 20 to do an uncapped loop for AC.

Build:
Elan (Expanded Psionic Handbook - base race, LA 0) Fighter-1/Monk-2/Cancer Mage (Book of Vile Darkness)-1

Method:
1) Catch the Vile Rigidity disease (Book of Vile Darkness). +1 Natural armor per day (Explicitly stacking) at a cost of -2 Dex each day after day 3.
2) The Cancer Mage's 1st level class ability is to get the bonuses of diseases without taking the penalties of diseases. So skip the dex penalty.
3) As an Elan doesn't die of old age, there is no cap to how high your AC can get.


Now, granted, it's cheesy as all get-out, and it doesn't increase your touch AC, but it's uncapped AC at ECL 4.

Edit: Although if you can arrange to get the spell "Scintilating Scales" (plenty of room for getting it into the build!), that natural armor bonus becomes deflection.

Eldariel
2011-01-27, 11:10 PM
So what was the regenerating Necropolitan build? Because I (or more correctly, the Queen of Diamonds Co-DM did) had that featured in one of my campaigns (to be worf effected by one of the big bads who smacked it with a Undeath to death spell.) And I remember getting the build here, and what I distinctly remember was that it involved shapechanging into a solar.

Fairly simply:
- Get Regeneration through whatever means (preferably unconditional).
- Get immunity to non-lethal damage (e.g. Favor of the Martyr [Spell Compendium Paladin 4] or by getting Undead-type; note though that if you lose your Con-score, Regeneration won't work so you need to get such a Type while retaining Regeneration)

You're done. Now, even worse forms of Regeneration work rather well; just make yourself immune to whatever penetrates them. That said, as immunities are eminently piercable in 3.5, that only gets you so far; unconditional Regeneration (e.g. Big T has one) and Favor is somewhat more reliable, though still subject to e.g. AMFs even if Supernatural Spell'd.

The Rabbler
2011-01-29, 02:41 PM
Fairly simply:
- Get Regeneration through whatever means (preferably unconditional).
- Get immunity to non-lethal damage (e.g. Favor of the Martyr [Spell Compendium Paladin 4] or by getting Undead-type; note though that if you lose your Con-score, Regeneration won't work so you need to get such a Type while retaining Regeneration)

You're done. Now, even worse forms of Regeneration work rather well; just make yourself immune to whatever penetrates them. That said, as immunities are eminently piercable in 3.5, that only gets you so far; unconditional Regeneration (e.g. Big T has one) and Favor is somewhat more reliable, though still subject to e.g. AMFs even if Supernatural Spell'd.

An interesting method for this that I saw somewhere was a vampire half-black-dragon war troll. Crazy LA and probably unplayable, but it would be fun with some martial adept sprinkled on top.

Talbot
2011-01-29, 05:47 PM
It won't top a lot of the ACs posted here, but I did come up with a decent defense-oriented build that could still do SOME damage a while back:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167959

There's some debate on how one or two elements of the build work (check with your DM to see if Kung Fu Genius Monk (INT) + Swordsage (WIS) can stack their AC boosts, for example), but generally it's a tough to hit build that maintains at least some offense and can annoy (and, barring things like contingency/celerity abuse, seriously contend with) most casters.