Why doesn't Xykon build a gate?

[pendell]

So I'm reading through SOD, and I guess it's not much of a spoiler to note that at one point Xykon and Redcloak are standing in front of a rift debating it's utility to The Plan.

Xykon: "Can't we build a gate?"
Redcloak: "Maybe, if we were both epic level and had decades to spend on research."

Well, it's now been several years since that event. Xykon, at least, is now epic level.

Maybe it's time to revisit that decision?

They've got the Goblin Nation and a vested interest in sticking around to find Xykon's phylactery. We still don't know where the other gates are , and there's no guarantee that they would be useful either. They are almost certainly defended, and the last gate defense almost annihilated them both -- would have, if not for Miko.

So why not just stay put, do the leveling and the research, and build a gate in what used to be Azure City? Redcloak can stay and mind his people, Xykon can ensure his phylactery is under higher security than it would in a hostile dungeon, and they are better positioned to protect the gate there than elsewhere.

So why bother with Kraagor's and Girard's gates at all? Just rebuild the gate where they are, solidifying their own position AND decreasing the chance that destroying all the gates will annihilate the universe. In fact, they'll actually be strengthening the world order rather than weakening it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[PirateMonk]

1. Redcloak doesn't seem to be epic level yet.
2. Xykon would probably get bored.
3. Waiting several decades gives the Order or someone else too much time to stop them.
4. They could do something wrong and unleash the Snarl.
5. Xykon (and Tsukiko) may not have a sufficient understanding of arcane magic to figure out how to make a new gate.
6. It would mess up the plot.

[Zevox]

1. Redcloak doesn't seem to be epic level yet.
Mainly this, plus the "decades of research" part. Finding and capturing the existing Gates takes much less time than that, given they have information on their locations from Serini's diary.

Zevox

[faustin]

If Xykon bothered to steal Dorukan´s Cloister spell, ¿couldn´t he have also bothered in stealing all the information about the Gates from him (D was the one who sealed the rifts of the Snarl, in the first place). You know, like "only good hearted guys can open my gate" or "How to build your own Gate in 12 easy steps".

[true_shinken]

"How to build your own Gate in 12 easy steps".
Except there are no 12 easy steps when it comes to epic arcane magic.

[adrejer]

(D was the one who sealed the rifts of the Snarl, in the first place)

Durukan did not create the gates singlehanded he was assisted by Lirian and she was an epic level druid. It is also stated someplace that to create a gate to seal the snarl rifts you need two epic level primary spellcasters (Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid or Cleric) one arcane and one divine.
This is problematized by the fact that Redcloak is not Epic level which means that Team Evil only have an Epic arcane caster..

[Zevox]

If Xykon bothered to steal Dorukan´s Cloister spell, ¿couldn´t he have also bothered in stealing all the information about the Gates from him (D was the one who sealed the rifts of the Snarl, in the first place). You know, like "only good hearted guys can open my gate" or "How to build your own Gate in 12 easy steps".
You assume that Dorukon would actually leave information like that just lying around. Seems like a pretty poor assumption. He'd be one hell of a terrible Gate guard if he did something that careless.

Zevox

[faustin]

You assume that Dorukon would actually leave information like that just lying around. Seems like a pretty poor assumption. He'd be one hell of a terrible Gate guard if he did something that careless.

You are probably right. I have spent too much time playing console games like Resident Evil or Bioshock where everyone let memorials carelessly to be founded.:smalltongue:
Anyway, Xykon could simply interrogate Dorukan and Lirian´s souls. He is an epic necromancer, after all.

[Acrux]

Er, you know the "Ritual" Tsukiko is looking at? It's likely for doing this.

[Grelna the Blue]

Because even if Redcloak were epic level, Xykon doesn't "work" at anything. He's not stupid, but he's not superbright and his attention span is microscopic. Redcloak is the only reason that the army actually has any organization at all.

[Zevox]

Er, you know the "Ritual" Tsukiko is looking at? It's likely for doing this.
Er, no. That's almost certainly the ritual for controlling the Gate, the one Redcloak plans on performing with Xykon once they actually capture a Gate. There's no indication whatsoever that Xykon could ever have acquired a ritual for actually creating a gate.

Zevox

[pendell]

Because even if Redcloak were epic level, Xykon doesn't "work" at anything. He's not stupid, but he's not superbright and his attention span is microscopic. Redcloak is the only reason that the army actually has any organization at all.

Actually, Xykon does work.

1) He researched "Xykon's moderately escapeable force cage" which was used to imprison Miko.
2) It is strongly implied that he spends eight hours a day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) crafting magic items , but then has 16 hours of free time during which he cannot sleep, eat, have sex, drink, or much else. This results in him being bored.

Xykon's attention span problem comes more from an extreme reluctance to get involved in day-to-day administrative details or sitting through Redcloak's lectures. This doesn't stop him from being able to work, and work hard, once he knows its value.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Querzis]

Because even if Redcloak were epic level, Xykon doesn't "work" at anything. He's not stupid, but he's not superbright and his attention span is microscopic. Redcloak is the only reason that the army actually has any organization at all.

Xykon is an epic level sorcerer. While he really doesnt work at all on his army or organization or stuff like that, its not just because of laziness (even if hes lazy), its mostly because Xykon believe there is a level of power that no strategy can overcome. Xykon does work hard but he work hard exclusively on making himself more powerful and knowledgeable and, unfortunately for people he torture for fun, Xykon can work hard on magic only 8 hours a day in D&D.

In other words, Xykon woudnt have gotten this powerful if he didnt work hard on his magic and powers.

And to answer the OP, yeah Redcloak aint epic level yet so looking for the other gates is still the smartest thing they can do right now.

[Orzel]

1) because it takes longer

2) because Redcloak isn't epic

3) because bad things happen to people who sit around researching spells

[rewinn]

... because bad things happen to people who sit around researching spells
...and especially spells that threaten the gods.

Now, at the moment, the gods don't know what Xykon's up to. Or else there's some force (possibly Fate, which may be how the Gods conceptualize of Plot ;-) that keeps Thor from blasting Xykon with a thunderclap. The longer Team Evil's quest takes, the greater the risk that the Gods will intervene, whether directly or by assembling a force of mortal champions.
(Which suggests the possibility that Banjo is already on the job; who better to control the Order than a God of Puppets? :smalltongue:)

[Grelna the Blue]

Actually, Xykon does work.

1) He researched "Xykon's moderately escapeable force cage" which was used to imprison Miko.
2) It is strongly implied that he spends eight hours a day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) crafting magic items , but then has 16 hours of free time during which he cannot sleep, eat, have sex, drink, or much else. This results in him being bored.

Xykon's attention span problem comes more from an extreme reluctance to get involved in day-to-day administrative details or sitting through Redcloak's lectures. This doesn't stop him from being able to work, and work hard, once he knows its value.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I'd forgotten about the item-crafting reference and the spell thing, so I have to concede the argument. I think I can be forgiven about forgetting the spell research though, as sorcerers aren't usually supposed to be able to research spells at all (SFAIK), unless putting a feat into getting an extra spell is explained as research.

[Dr.Epic]

Red Cloak still ain't epic level.
Xykon is exactly the most learned person (he fell asleep once while Red Cloak was explaining something and for undead that's impossible).
Is it even clear how they would go about researching this? I mean, where does one go to learn about building a Gate. It only happened five times and the guys who did it swore an oath of secrecy so I doubt there are too many books about it.

[Orzel]

...and especially spells that threaten the gods.

Now, at the moment, the gods don't know what Xykon's up to. Or else there's some force (possibly Fate, which may be how the Gods conceptualize of Plot ;-) that keeps Thor from blasting Xykon with a thunderclap. The longer Team Evil's quest takes, the greater the risk that the Gods will intervene, whether directly or by assembling a force of mortal champions.
(Which suggests the possibility that Banjo is already on the job; who better to control the Order than a God of Puppets? :smalltongue:)

Pretty much.
D&D is littered with dead spellcasters who were killed sitting at home in the process of researching or casting some "new" spell/creature.

Xykon sitting in his tower researching drops him fromm Big Bad to Side Quest Boss. Or worse.. Curbstomped Spellcaster of Lore.

[PirateMonk]

Red Cloak still ain't epic level.
Xykon is exactly the most learned person (he fell asleep once while Red Cloak was explaining something and for undead that's impossible).
Is it even clear how they would go about researching this? I mean, where does one go to learn about building a Gate. It only happened five times and the guys who did it swore an oath of secrecy so I doubt there are too many books about it.

It should be possible to reproduce the research Lirian and Dorukan did, but it certainly won't be easy. If it requires some deep understanding of magical theory which Dorukan has and Xykon doesn't, or the Order of the Scribble destroyed some vital books, it could turn out to be nearly impossible.

[SPoD]

Staying in one place until Recloak levels up and then spends "decades" of time researching how to build a Gate will not work as long as there are beings out there capable of stopping them.

The elves, in particular, seem dedicated to opposing Team Evil but are slow to get going. Give them ten years to plan, though, and they'll research an epic spell that can target Xykon personally from orbit using his true name and wipe him out of existence. Sure, it will take 5000 elf spellcasters combining their powers to do it, but the point is, it can be done. Xykon's only defense against this sort of slow-moving catastrophe is to stay mobile and get the job done before they can get their pieces in place.

Once Xykon announced his presence to the world by capturing Azure City, he lost the ability to just hole up somewhere and research.

[Leecros]

Give them ten years to plan, though, and they'll research an epic spell that can target Xykon personally from orbit using his true name and wipe him out of existence.

Elfin Ion Cannon?


That needs to be put in a book somewhere.

[Occasional Sage]

Elfin Ion Cannon?


That needs to be put in a book somewhere.

I have trouble believing that the elves don't have a copy of Elfin Ion Cannon sitting around for moments like this, which was researched in such a way that the target's name us plugged in as a component so that new research isn't needed.

I mean, this can't be the first Existence-Threatening Plot they've seen, and both elves individually and elvin empires stick around for the better part of forEVer.... They just need to remember which shelf has the book, is all.

[megabyter5]

I have trouble believing that the elves don't have a copy of Elfin Ion Cannon sitting around for moments like this, which was researched in such a way that the target's name us plugged in as a component so that new research isn't needed.

I mean, this can't be the first Existence-Threatening Plot they've seen, and both elves individually and elvin empires stick around for the better part of forEVer.... They just need to remember which shelf has the book, is all.

Except Epic Spells can't be written in a book. By RAW, the only way to write down an Epic Spell is on a massive stone tablet that can only be learned from once before it is destroyed forever.

[factotum]

As already stated, the meta reason is because "it wouldn't be much of a story that way", but I'm Zevox on this one--what's the point of spending decades to learn how to build a Gate when there are five ready-built ones out in the world you can use?

[Drynwyn]

Elfin Ion Cannon?


That needs to be put in a book somewhere.

I'm going to go figure out the seeds and DC for this now. Expect it on the home brew forum shortly.

[pendell]

As already stated, the meta reason is because "it wouldn't be much of a story that way", but I'm Zevox on this one--what's the point of spending decades to learn how to build a Gate when there are five ready-built ones out in the world you can use?

Two, at this point: Girard's and Kraagor's.

Well, let's look at what happened at the last three gates , shall we?

1) Soon's gate: Xykon and Redcloak nearly killed by Deathless Soon and his brigade of martyrs.
2) Dorukon's gate: Xykon is blasted into a bajillion pieces, have to make a run for it.
3. Lirian's gate
sod spoiler

Captured and imprisoned. They escape by turning Xykon into a lich, a trick you can only do once.


Three quests, three times near-disaster or death. Three times the gate was rendered unuseable. Noticing a pattern here?

It wouldn't be irrational for Xykon and Redcloak to say "Screw this; we've got a potential gate right here. "

While it won't be an OOTS story, I'm not sure that "We stay in one place and build a gate in Azure City" couldn't also be a story. Sounds, in fact, like every dungeon crawl ever written.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

It remains that Redcloak is not epic (nor, as far as we know, is there a single epic-level divine spellcaster alive in the OotS world today. The High Priest of the Twelve Gods was decidedly less than epic).

[theNater]

Three quests, three times near-disaster or death. Three times the gate was rendered unuseable. Noticing a pattern here?
I only count two near-disasters. Xykon was in no real danger at Dorukon's gate; he still had the MitD in reserve, who probably could have defeated the entire party single-handedly. (With Redcloak's backup, that goes from probably to almost certainly.) But that leaves Xykon in a mostly empty dungeon with a gate he still can't access.

He doesn't have to run for it, there's just no good reason to stick around.

[silvadel]

They have the two creators of gates at their disposal inside a little black gem. It would be easier to research mind-tearing spells that require the victim to be soulbound (a condition which should make the research FAR easier) and get the information out of Lirian and Durokan.

As for getting Redcloak to epic level -- that could be done in a few evil adventures. You even have a backup who can rez redcloak if necessary.

[faustin]

They have the two creators of gates at their disposal inside a little black gem. It would be easier to research mind-tearing spells that require the victim to be soulbound (a condition which should make the research FAR easier) and get the information out of Lirian and Durokan.

That´s was also my question :smallconfused:

[Zevox]

Well, let's look at what happened at the last three gates , shall we?

1) Soon's gate: Xykon and Redcloak nearly killed by Deathless Soon and his brigade of martyrs.
2) Dorukon's gate: Xykon is blasted into a bajillion pieces, have to make a run for it.
3. Lirian's gate
sod spoiler

Captured and imprisoned. They escape by turning Xykon into a lich, a trick you can only do once.


Three quests, three times near-disaster or death. Three times the gate was rendered unuseable. Noticing a pattern here?
Not really. Only at Soon's gate did they suffer a near-death experience. At Dorukon's they successfully captured the gate and simply had to defeat its wards in order to make use of it - it was the freakish luck Roy had by tossing Xykon into it (which Rich himself described as basically being a deus ex machina) that was the only reason they were forced to flee, and Elan's stupidity that subsequently destroyed the gate by sheer accident. And at Lirian's she became a pushover once Xykon became a Lich, and her gate was also destroyed only by an accident. Soon's ghost-martyrs alone posed sufficient threat to nearly undo them completely.


It wouldn't be irrational for Xykon and Redcloak to say "Screw this; we've got a potential gate right here. "
Sure it would. The last time they did something like that the Order showed up an screwed them out of Dorukon's Gate. Given that the time it would take for Redcloak to reach epic levels and to research how to create their own gate would be several orders of magnitude longer than it would have taken them to beat Dorukon's wards, they certainly can't expect to just do that and have no trouble. The Order will come for them eventually, or other would-be heroes. Heck, they were already expecting that as-is, as those wards that interrupted Darth V show. Why put up with decades of that when just one ordeal finding and capturing one of the remaining gates can give them what they need? Especially when they have Serini's diary, making the "finding" part of that equation fairly easy?

Zevox

[Deliverance]

The elves, in particular, seem dedicated to opposing Team Evil but are slow to get going. Give them ten years to plan, though, and they'll research an epic spell that can target Xykon personally from orbit using his true name and wipe him out of existence. Sure, it will take 5000 elf spellcasters combining their powers to do it, but the point is, it can be done. Xykon's only defense against this sort of slow-moving catastrophe is to stay mobile and get the job done before they can get their pieces in place.

Once Xykon announced his presence to the world by capturing Azure City, he lost the ability to just hole up somewhere and research.
Are you sure of that, SPoD?

Unless there's something I've forgotten in the series of elf-related strips which is entirely possible, we have not been informed that the elves are dedicated to opposing Team Evil in general or destroying Xykon in the specific, but only that they are dedicated to liberating Azure City. (Old allies, slow to go to war, frustrated by the lack of knowledge from Azure city - #670).

It is even possible that the elves remain unaware of the gates - Hinjo states in #671 that Sapphire Guard's oath is dissolved with the destruction of Soon's gate, but that might refer only to the oath to protect that gate and not seek out the other gates, not to keeping information about the gates secret in general.

It may seem a long stretch, but consider the following: Hinjo's reference to the elves in #671 and their place in the plans relevant for the OOTS is in informing the OOTS when Xykon leaves Azure City - if the elves were in on the whole gate problem and considered Xykon the paramount threat (which Hinjo and the OOTS certainly think!), wouldn't they be aiding Hinjo with the most important problem on hand (preventing Xykon from gaining control of a gate) rather than the least important (evicting goblins from a city that they occupy, possibly even hastening up Xykon's departure through their actions)?

Of course, they might be doing all that behind the scenes, but based on what I remember seeing in the strip the elves sure seem to be acting as if they are aware of Azure City being occupied, the nature of its defences and defenders (lich sorcerer in charge of goblinoids), and precious little else.

(This would be a wonderful place for somebody to link a strip I have forgotten showing that the elves do know of the greater threat. :smallbiggrin:)

[Nimrod's Son]

(This would be a wonderful place for somebody to link a strip I have forgotten showing that the elves do know of the greater threat. :smallbiggrin:)
I don't believe there is any solid evidence for that, no, but in SoD there are a lot of elves defending Lirian's gate, so it may be the case that the gates are not as big a secret to them as they were to the Sapphire Guard. There may even be elves who remember Xykon's attack firsthand.

[rewinn]

I don't believe there is any solid evidence for that, no, but in SoD there are a lot of elves defending Lirian's gate, so it may be the case that the gates are not as big a secret to them as they were to the Sapphire Guard. There may even be elves who remember Xykon's attack firsthand.

This alludes to the One Big Plot Hole in OOTS: that V doesn't Send the Andarious warning of the Grave Danger To All Existence or, failing that, that Hinjo passed this information on with all the other intel.

It may be that this happened offscreen. Perhaps the elves are already looking for the gates, or maybe Elven High Command figures the danger of Xykon/Redcloak building a gate in Azure City is important enough to devote all their moble resources to retaking the city.

[SPoD]

Of course, they might be doing all that behind the scenes, but based on what I remember seeing in the strip the elves sure seem to be acting as if they are aware of Azure City being occupied, the nature of its defences and defenders (lich sorcerer in charge of goblinoids), and precious little else.

Yes, that is how they have acted in the two weeks since they decided to get involved. However, the discussion at hand is what would happen if Xykon researched the means to build a gate, a plan that would take "decades," according to Redcloak.

Can you honestly say that if Xykon sat in Azure City for the next twenty to thirty years, the elves would have no more information on him ten years from now than they do today? That they would have no diviners who could discern who the leader of the army was? Or that Hinjo would somehow refuse to share that information if they, you know, asked for it?

(Plus, the elves that use Sending to talk to Hinjo told him that the search for the phylactary continues. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0747.html) Therefore, the elves must know about the lich already.)

So, just taking the fact that the elves are a.) aware of what's going on in Azure City, and b.) getting themselves involved at all, it stands to reason that they will be able to stop him before the 20+ years it will take to build a new gate. Which is why he's more interested in pursuing the gates that still exist. Which was the question this thread was asking.

[Nimrod's Son]

This alludes to the One Big Plot Hole in OOTS: that V doesn't Send the Andarious warning of the Grave Danger To All Existence
"I... I must succeed". :smallwink:

[factotum]

This alludes to the One Big Plot Hole in OOTS: that V doesn't Send the Andarious warning of the Grave Danger To All Existence or, failing that, that Hinjo passed this information on with all the other intel.


V wouldn't do it because of pride, as Nimrod's Son just pointed out. Also, "being an elf" does not mean that everyone in the elven nations thinks the same way--for all we know Aarindarius is too wrapped up in his own studies to care about grave dangers to existence. We also don't really know how powerful Aarindarius is--the scene of him one-shotting the ABD was (a) thought up by a desperate V under evil's temptation and (b) obviously wrong anyway, because Darth V was not able to one-shot the ABD and he was certainly a lot more powerful than his old master at that point!

[Deliverance]

Can you honestly say that if Xykon sat in Azure City for the next twenty to thirty years, the elves would have no more information on him ten years from now than they do today? That they would have no diviners who could discern who the leader of the army was? Or that Hinjo would somehow refuse to share that information if they, you know, asked for it?

No, I cannot say any of that, nor do I have any intention to, nor did I intend to suggest that this would be the case.

But I can say that I am not sure that Hinjo would share information on the other gates and I can say that I am not sure that the western elves would discover the information about the other gates by themselves or discover Xykon's greater threat to the world.

I would like to think that Hinjo would tell them, but the Sapphire Guard has certainly shown itself to be perfectly willing to cripple itself for an oath in the past, so if he only considers himself released from his oath concerning Soon's gate and non-interference with the other gates, and not from keeping the secret knowledge of the Sapphire Guard secret, I would expect him and the other paladins to not inform the elves despite the manifest benefits from doing so.



So, just taking the fact that the elves are a.) aware of what's going on in Azure City, and b.) getting themselves involved at all, it stands to reason that they will be able to stop him before the 20+ years it will take to build a new gate. Which is why he's more interested in pursuing the gates that still exist. Which was the question this thread was asking.
It does not "stand to reason" that they'd be able to stop him during the 20+ years it would take to research and build a new gate.

It is certainly possible, that they'd be able to do it, and at the very least having them active would be a serious annoyance and possibly more than that, but we have practically no information about their capabilities in terms of either medium to high level characters or power projection.

The elves can draw on the power of a state, sure, but so can Xykon - the goblinoids of Gobbutopia.

I quite agree that there are excellent reasons for Xykon not to bunker down and start gate research, but most of them relate to his characer and temperament rather than the notion that he'd inevitably be defeated by <elves|gods|adventurers> , a notion that I find it hard to believe Xykon would ever hold.

Hence my answer to "why doesn't Xykon build a gate" is "because while Xykon can show endless amounts of patience in pursuit of his goals and has done so in the past, it bores him to do so and he prefers to take the less boring shortcut whenever one is available. Settling down for playing the waiting game when there is the possibility for a huge payoff from risk taking is utterly unlike him."

[Cybertoy00]

Wasn't it stated somewhere that this series isn't about people doing things the smart way? (Or something...)

[Thufir]

Probably because Xykon knows what happens "..if we sit on our lazy ASSES and rearrange the furniture in a ruined city instead of moving on to the next target." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html)

[fibonacciseries]

...and especially spells that threaten the gods.

Now, at the moment, the gods don't know what Xykon's up to. Or else there's some force (possibly Fate, which may be how the Gods conceptualize of Plot ;-) that keeps Thor from blasting Xykon with a thunderclap. The longer Team Evil's quest takes, the greater the risk that the Gods will intervene, whether directly or by assembling a force of mortal champions.
(Which suggests the possibility that Banjo is already on the job; who better to control the Order than a God of Puppets? :smalltongue:)

The factor that prevents Thor from throwing a lightning bolt at Xykon?
Liches are immune to electricity.

[Doug Lampert]

The factor that prevents Thor from throwing a lightning bolt at Xykon?
Liches are immune to electricity.

That isn't what stops THOR from doing it.

That's what would stop it from working if he did it.

[fibonacciseries]

That isn't what stops THOR from doing it.

That's what would stop it from working if he did it.

Fine.
That's what would prevent Thor's doing so from actually having any impact.