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Chells
2011-01-26, 01:02 PM
The title of course brings to mind "to be or not to be" but really what I'm looking for is how different epic level games are. A couple of my friends have been asking me to run an epic level game and I have been stalling as I really have no idea if epic is just D&D with tons of power or is almost a totally different animal. 3.5 rules and I do not have the Epic Level handbook (but I could pick it up if I really need to.)

Any suggestions on what to look for and look out for would be greatly appriciated.
Thanks

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-26, 01:07 PM
The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) should contain everything you need to do epic level play.

In the epic levels, there are two options:
A. Win initiative and destroy your opponent before he acts;
B. Lose initiative and fall back on a contingency plan.

Wild Shape or Persistent Shapechange: Dire Tortoise, Moment of Prescience initiative bonus, (Greater) Celerity, and Contingent Synchronicity are examples of what's required to succeed in the epic levels.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-26, 01:18 PM
Also, have LOTS of contingency plans.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-26, 01:28 PM
Here is my suggestion if you are going to run an epic level game(since I've done it three times so far).

1. Re-use monsters as much as possible. In the epic levels, to make monsters and challenge ratings appropirate for your players, you sometimes have to up the hit dice of monsters and it take a lot of math to figure out hit points, attack bonuses, saves, etc... I've spent hours making one monster before and the players tore through him like he was wet tissue papaer. If you've spent the time to create a monster, use it over and over again. Make armies of them if you have to.

2. Don't give the bad guys epic magic items that you don't want your players using. I gave the bad guys some unslotted magic items to help them out a bit. Then the players got the idea to make everything they have unslotted so they can wear tons of magic items. It's interesting to see characters that are weaing 9 magic rings and 3 cloaks.

3. Don't bother keep track of hit points on your Big Bad Evil Guy. At some point in the epic game, I just stopped keeping track of the bad guys hit points. The players were doing so much damage, I just decided when the bad guys would die. I tried to make it seem appropriate. Also, I still marked things down on paper as if I was keeping track of damage, but I wasn't.

4. Give your players lots, and I mean lots of downtime. Playing in an epic game is fun, but when you want to make a magic item that takes 450 days, you need lots of downtime in order to construct that magic item. Plus, epic spells will take a very long time also.

5. Make personalized loot for each player. If you don't like giving your players a year and a half of downtime, then make sure you ask each player to give you a wish list of magic items they hope to find. Try to sprinkle this stuff in with their loot.

6. Let your players be EPIC! I know this sounds kinda stupid, but throw entire armies at them and see what they can do. If you are playing in a world where there are high level NPC's (Such as Elminister or Mordenkinen), have them need rescuing.

Well, that's all I can remember for now. If I can think of anything else, I'll let you know. :smallsmile:

Edit: 7. Give your players a "free respec". I kind of stole this idead from World of Warcraft, but when the players in my game made it to level 20 for the first time, I let them change their characters. They could redo skills, feats, and spell selection. I also let them redo 5 character levels, so they could trade out 5 levels of fighter for 5 levels of warblade. I also gave them another free respec at level 25 and level 30.

Necro_EX
2011-01-26, 01:36 PM
Epic level 3.5 can be a completely different beast.

There are a few reasons for this. The challenges you can throw their way, the effects the party can have on reality, and the wizard all come to mind.

The challenges - Now instead of preventing a world-shattering crisis, the party can actually fight those world-shattering foes. Look to elder evils for some examples. These are really great ways to cap off a campaign. I personally hate the idea of starting a game off at epic levels, kinda kills the whole point of progressing there, but whatever.

The point is they can fight things like atropals, angels of decay, elder evils, colossal+ dragons, etc...

The effects - Before they were kind of influencing the world, fighting evil and whatnot. Now they can destroy entire evil organizations just because. They can literally change the landscape, even. Form their own nations in short time, potentially commit deicide, etc...

The wizard - Thought he was ridiculous in mere high levels? Now he can create his own plane of existance, might just become immortal, and can destroy any non-epic threat that he perceives. "Man, know that guy that gave us so much hell back around level 6? Well, I just found his location. Give me some time for this epic spell and let's see how his ass can handle ten freaking dragons."

Chells
2011-01-26, 01:49 PM
I personally hate the idea of starting a game off at epic levels, kinda kills the whole point of progressing there, but whatever.

Failed to clarify that this will not be a huge sweeping campaign. Probably just a 2-5 session story.

Is the Epic level handbook worth the price?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-26, 01:52 PM
Is the Epic level handbook worth the price?

Everything that book contains (other than the pathetic iconic NPC stats) is contained in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) near the top under the 'Epic Rules' heading.

randomhero00
2011-01-26, 01:53 PM
1. don't play epic
2. if you must, then ban epic casting

Urpriest
2011-01-26, 02:04 PM
2. if you must, then ban epic casting

To elaborate: the example epic spells are generally pretty useless. However it's very easy to use the rules for epic spell creation to give yourself absurdly powerful effects very very quickly by stacking mitigation factors and using other spells to give you stuff to help you cast (summoning casters to contribute slots, giving yourself spellcraft bonuses, etc.).

NichG
2011-01-27, 12:07 AM
Rather than use epic casting I just generally extend the spell level system to about 15th level spells, stretched out significantly to make the progression last. One way to do it is to require each followup spell level requiring the Improved Spell Capacity feat and sufficient mental stat to access.

The casting of spells above 9th level is automatically felt by all magic-users and supernatural beings within some radius, as they significantly deplete the background levels of magic in the local environment. A 10th level spell could be felt within a mile. A 15th level spell is felt everywhere in the universe.

10th level: Permanent/instantaneous effects corresponding to low level spells (e.g. permanent blessing to everyone within a mile kind of thing). Lowest level at which interaction with deeper cosmological forces becomes possible, but still limited - analysis and detection. High-end contingencies also belong here. Creation of new forms of life (individual).

11th level: Permanent/instantaneous effects corresponding to nature of being (e.g. spells granting free minor abilities, like being able to give someone a specific permanent 0th or 1st level spell-like ability with no associated LA or xp cost). Things that set up minor contingent effects on reality (whenever someone says my name I receive a message). Start of cosmological manipulation. Minor time travel. Creation of new forms of life (self-perpetuating species).

12th level: As 11th level but greater breadth of possible effects.

13th level: As 12th level but greater breadth of possible effects. Pocket-plane creation comes in at this point.

14th level: Start of reality-shaping effects. Permanently change the laws of physics in small ways, that sort of thing.

15th level: Getting into universe creation.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-27, 12:25 AM
The wizard - Thought he was ridiculous in mere high levels? Now he can create his own plane of existance, might just become immortal, and can destroy any non-epic threat that he perceives. "Man, know that guy that gave us so much hell back around level 6? Well, I just found his location. Give me some time for this epic spell and let's see how his ass can handle ten freaking dragons."

For the record, a level 17 Psion can do the bolded, so it's not that impressive.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-27, 12:34 AM
A Rogue can make his own Demi-Plane using a Scroll of Genesis. Planes are Vanilla Powerful Magic. Creating Gods on the other hand...

Heliomance
2011-01-27, 12:39 AM
13th level: As 12th level but greater breadth of possible effects. Pocket-plane creation comes in at this point.
Actually, it comes in at 9th level spells. Genesis is a printed 9th level spell that creates a demiplane.

Kaldrin
2011-01-27, 02:27 AM
I've only played one epic game, but the real game changer in that instance was the epic magic. The other classes can start to do some cool things, but with epic magic you're talking about wiping out entire kingdoms with one spell.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-27, 02:32 AM
I've only played one epic game, but the real game changer in that instance was the epic magic. The other classes can start to do some cool things, but with epic magic you're talking about wiping out entire kingdoms with one spell.

If your only destroying kingdoms with spells your doing it wrong
By Epic if you don't have Complete Magic Immunity or Magic of your own you are so screwed you might as well crawl inside the mouth of Cuthulu himself to save the Wizard the trouble.

NichG
2011-01-27, 02:37 AM
Actually, it comes in at 9th level spells. Genesis is a printed 9th level spell that creates a demiplane.

Ah, sorry, this was from a campaign without an astral or ethereal, so it was harder.

For a standard game, I'd update that to creating a pocket plane 'anywhere', i.e. adding a new micro-plane to the cosmology at some point rather than placing a demiplane inside the ethereal. Probably also allow it to interact with the cosmological forces of the campaign - i.e. create a new alignment axis at 14th level spells, that sort of thing.

Runestar
2011-01-27, 05:47 AM
Oerth journal 22 has an epic adventure for 21st lv PCs, so it might serve as a springboard or let you pillage some ideas.

http://www.oerthjournal.com/oerthjournals.html

Czin
2011-01-27, 08:12 AM
If you aren't fighting horrific abominations and picking your teeth with Elder Evils, you're doing it wrong. Once you are at epic level, your martial characters should be like a warhammer 40k space marine, capable of tearing you apart limb from limb so quickly that you won't even catch a glimpse of them before you're dead. Your mages should be able to decide the fate of nations on a whim and be considered major players in your cosmology, up there with the Outsider lords and Archomentals, though maybe not quite up there with the gods.

If you're an evil full spell-caster, you absolutely must pull a Vecna and attain godhood, then attempt to bend the entire universe to your will in an attempt to become the one and only god. Then probably fail as the rest of your party beats you senseless. :smallbiggrin:

umbrapolaris
2011-01-27, 11:01 AM
If you aren't fighting horrific abominations and picking your teeth with Elder Evils, you're doing it wrong. Once you are at epic level, your martial characters should be like a warhammer 40k space marine, capable of tearing you apart limb from limb so quickly that you won't even catch a glimpse of them before you're dead. Your mages should be able to decide the fate of nations on a whim and be considered major players in your cosmology, up there with the Outsider lords and Archomentals, though maybe not quite up there with the gods.

If you're an evil full spell-caster, you absolutely must pull a Vecna and attain godhood, then attempt to bend the entire universe to your will in an attempt to become the one and only god. Then probably fail as the rest of your party beats you senseless. :smallbiggrin:

+1, our epic campaign sound now more like Diablo 2 in Nightmare mode than Neverwinter"s Night.

Myth
2011-01-27, 12:52 PM
My one major advice is: Stay on top of the game and control the environment. Since mechanics can be overcome by Epic characters (ignore those saying to up the HP and BAB of monsters, that's like building a pillow fort versus nukes), instead challenge the players by things they can't easily break/overcome: deadlines, multiple threats at different locations, logistical problems / lack of information that magic cannot simply fix. Stuff like that.

In combat, make sure that you have an answer for initative, no initative just "i go first", multiple immunities and everything in between. Your BBEG better be able to break the action economy, because 4 Epic characters will easily perform 20+ actions in a single round.

NichG
2011-01-27, 01:31 PM
To be fair, the initiative issue is more dependent on how optimized the PCs are. Against a well-insulated BBEG it won't necessarily come down to rocket tag outside of TO parties.

The action economy is always important though, and it will have a LOT of variance depending on the party's tactics and style:

If the party is all using belts of battle, thats +1 action each

If the party has people who like to summon, thats +a lot of actions each on followup rounds, so I'll agree there. Spell Stowaway for Gate or other summon spells would be a funny thing to throw at such a group at some point.

If the party is full of casters, that can be a lot of actions from Timestops if they use them, though using Timestop offensively is an art that takes practice to get good at.

If the party has a guy or a few guys who build a stable of attendant NPCs: Leadership, army of undead, army of constructs (or effigies!), then expect tons of actions.

Familiars, item familiars, sentient items, animal companions are all sources of extra actions.

If the party has access to Craft: Contingency, Ruby Knight Vindicator/Nightsticks/Celerity action flares, or infinite action psionic loops then you made a mistake when you allowed those things.

Kaldrin
2011-01-27, 06:06 PM
If your only destroying kingdoms with spells your doing it wrong
By Epic if you don't have Complete Magic Immunity or Magic of your own you are so screwed you might as well crawl inside the mouth of Cuthulu himself to save the Wizard the trouble.

That doesn't fit with the concept of D&D's linear progression though. 20th level I'm a great hero of the kingdom and can barely hold my own against a sizeable force (because all those rolls of the DM will eventually score enough 20s to wear you down). Suddenly when I reach 21 I can take on all the forces of nature and the world? pfft.

Axolotl
2011-01-27, 06:12 PM
That doesn't fit with the concept of D&D's linear progression though. 20th level I'm a great hero of the kingdom and can barely hold my own against a sizeable force (because all those rolls of the DM will eventually score enough 20s to wear you down). Suddenly when I reach 21 I can take on all the forces of nature and the world? pfft.Since when has DnD had a linear progression? Hell at 20th level virtually nothing should be a real threat to you anymore. You shouldn't the great hero of a kingdom, you're a great hero of a whole planet and very little on that planet should be a real challenge for you.

Czin
2011-01-27, 06:19 PM
Since when has DnD had a linear progression? Hell at 20th level virtually nothing should be a real threat to you anymore. You shouldn't the great hero of a kingdom, you're a great hero of a whole planet and very little on that planet should be a real challenge for you.

Except on high magic/power planets, where you are very likely to be overshadowed by Epic Level Casters who could beat the snot out of your level 20 arse without blinking.

mootoall
2011-01-27, 06:26 PM
That totally fits with the concept of D&D's linear (for fighters) and quadratic (for wizards) progression, too! 20th level I'm a great hero of the kingdom and can barely hold my own against a sizeable force (because all those rolls of the DM will eventually score enough 20s to wear you down), if I don't decide to use an astral projection for all my worldly activities. Suddenly when I reach 21 I can cast epic spells. Hell yeah.

Fixed that for you.