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Wonderman
2011-01-26, 06:01 PM
I need some help figuring out the last of my feats for a Forgotten Realms campaign that takes place underground for the most part (which is why I didn't take wings) Is there any advice you can give me for this Dragonfire Adept as far as feats go and which invocations I should take, I have most of the mapped out but I i'm missing a lot, thanks.

Feats: Entangling Exhalation (1st)Clinging Breath(H) Shape Breath (3rd), Lingering Breath (6th),(free) (9th),(free) (12th),(free) (15th), Maximize Breath (18th).

Breath Effects: Frost Breath (2nd), Slow Breath (5th), Sleep (10th), Thunder (12th), Fivefold Breath (15th), Paralyzing Breath(20th)

Invocations: Endure Exposure (1st) ,Beguiling influence (3rd) (free) (6th), Enthraling Voice (8th), Chilling Fog (11th), Draconic Toughness(13th),(Free) (16th), Energy Immunity (18th)

Str- 8
Con- 18
Cha-18
Dex- 12
Int- 10
Wis- 8

Stats Based on a 26 point distribution system (any help there would be greatly appreciated too).

Keld Denar
2011-01-26, 06:16 PM
What race? If you aren't Dragonborn, you don't qualify for Metabreath feats. Thats about the biggest thing I notice. Your feats, powers, and breath effects are all decent choices. I might suggest changing Slow Breath to Weakening Breath because of the interaction between Entangling Exhalation and Weakening Breath, but Slow is decent too.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-26, 06:20 PM
What race? If you aren't Dragonborn, you don't qualify for Metabreath feats. Thats about the biggest thing I notice. Your feats, powers, and breath effects are all decent choices. I might suggest changing Slow Breath to Weakening Breath because of the interaction between Entangling Exhalation and Weakening Breath, but Slow is decent too.

Ummm... Dragonfire Adept comes with Dragonborn for free at first level...

Also Entangling Exhalation can only be applied to a breath that deals damage. Which means it cannot be applied to either Weakening OR slow breath, as both effects are INSTEAD of damage...

Amnestic
2011-01-26, 06:22 PM
If you're not a Dragonborn, you can grab the Power Surge feat to qualify for Metabreath feats if I recall correctly.


Ummm... Dragonfire Adept comes with Dragonborn for free at first level...

It comes with the *Dragontouched* Feat. Dragonborn is a LA+0 template from Races of the Dragon.

Coidzor
2011-01-26, 06:23 PM
You might consider humanoid shape (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!&post_num=9#338375838) in order to get access to flight or burrow as desired/necessary.

Wonderman
2011-01-26, 06:24 PM
Ya, my DM is not allowing me to be Dragonborn or any race apart from the basic 3.5 players handbook save *possibly* strongheart halfling. Also, i should grab power surge first level?

Wonderman
2011-01-26, 06:26 PM
You might consider humanoid shape (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!&post_num=9#338375838) in order to get access to flight or burrow as desired/necessary.

Chances are my DM will restrict me severely as far as what I can and can't turn into.

Amnestic
2011-01-26, 06:29 PM
Ya, my DM is not allowing me to be Dragonborn or any race apart from the basic 3.5 players handbook save *possibly* strongheart halfling. Also, i should grab power surge first level?

If you hope to take Metabreath feats, you should be taking Power Surge as soon as you've got a feat free. If you've got Flaws/are Human then yes, if not, you might want to take Entangling Exhalation at 1st. That's just my preference though.

Wonderman
2011-01-26, 06:35 PM
If you hope to take Metabreath feats, you should be taking Power Surge as soon as you've got a feat free. If you've got Flaws/are Human then yes, if not, you might want to take Entangling Exhalation at 1st. That's just my preference though.

Ya, we're also not allowed flaws... Sooo, as far as human I'm thinking 1) Power Surge + Entangling Exhalation 3) Clinging 6)Lingering 9) Shaped

Also, should I change my breath effects around if I'm going for slight control and a lot of damage, as far as control we have me and a warlock so it's pretty controlled for the most part once he gets chilling tentacles though apart from me and him the group is quite incompetent ._.

Keld Denar
2011-01-26, 06:39 PM
Ummm... Dragonfire Adept comes with Dragonborn for free at first level...
Dragontouched. Not the same. You can't take metabreath feats unless you have a breath weapon with a recharge timer measured in rounds. DFA has no recharge timer. Thus, you need to be Dragonborn with the aspect that gives you a breath weapon so that you qualify for metabreath feats. Once you qualify, you can apply them to either breath, but you need to qualify first.

It should be noted as well that all breath weapons share a common cooldown, so using your Dragonborn BW will put your DFA BW on cooldown, and using metabreath feats on either will result in an inability to breath again for probably the rest of the combat.

Also Entangling Exhalation can only be applied to a breath that deals damage. Which means it cannot be applied to either Weakening OR slow breath, as both effects are INSTEAD of damage...
I never said you could. BUT, Entangling Exhalation lasts for a couple rounds, usually. You can alternate it with EITHER Weakening Breath or Slow Breath to screw with people. Hard. THATS how you combine them.

EDIT: Little trick...stack your Chilling Fog on top of his Chilling Tentacles. Even if your foe gets out of the tentacles, they can still only move 5' as a full round action due to the interaction of the two. Thats BRUTAL for anything that doesn't have FoM or the ability to teleport out of trouble.

Amnestic
2011-01-26, 06:42 PM
I never said you could. BUT, Entangling Exhalation lasts for a couple rounds, usually. You can alternate it with EITHER Weakening Breath or Slow Breath to screw with people. Hard. THATS how you combine them.

Toss in a Chilling Fog Invocation and we've *really* got a party going.

Edit: Nevermind x_x

Wonderman
2011-01-26, 06:48 PM
So basically i need to find a way to convince my DM that Dragonborn are not "completely overpowered and have no place in his campaign"?

Coidzor
2011-01-26, 06:48 PM
Chances are my DM will restrict me severely as far as what I can and can't turn into.

Well, if it's a long-shot anyway, wouldn't hurt to figure out how he'd restrict you/what would be necessary to be considered to have them in such a lexicon. How's he handle druids?

Wonderman
2011-01-26, 06:55 PM
Well, if it's a long-shot anyway, wouldn't hurt to figure out how he'd restrict you/what would be necessary to be considered to have them in such a lexicon. How's he handle druids?

Don't have a druid in the group so probably wont encounter anything of the sort.

Coidzor
2011-01-26, 06:57 PM
Don't have a druid in the group so probably wont encounter anything of the sort.

I meant how does he handle their available forms for wildshaping, as the situations are similar enough for some level of analogous treatment.

Keld Denar
2011-01-26, 07:00 PM
I think Coidzor was refering to the fact that writing druid at the top of your character sheet is a stronger option than a lot of the things your DM seems to be against. Its kinda a funny dicotomy when people ban things that are in the mid realm of power, yet don't do anything to reign in the real power that is druids and wizards, just because they are "core" and core is "balanced".

But thats neither here, nor there. What did you think of Weakening Breath? It stacks with the -2 to hit you give with Entangling Breath, so if you can get them both going at once, you'll give foes a -5 to hit. Thats effectively giving everyone on your team a +5 to AC because they'll be harder to hit.

Wonderman
2011-01-26, 07:08 PM
I think Coidzor was refering to the fact that writing druid at the top of your character sheet is a stronger option than a lot of the things your DM seems to be against. Its kinda a funny dicotomy when people ban things that are in the mid realm of power, yet don't do anything to reign in the real power that is druids and wizards, just because they are "core" and core is "balanced".

But thats neither here, nor there. What did you think of Weakening Breath? It stacks with the -2 to hit you give with Entangling Breath, so if you can get them both going at once, you'll give foes a -5 to hit. Thats effectively giving everyone on your team a +5 to AC because they'll be harder to hit.

Ya, i had a combo like that with entangling breath for the weakening breath and make it linger, quickened invocation the chilling fog and have the warlock cast his chilling tentacles while the swashbuckler does his thing and the paladin does paladin stuff



I meant how does he handle their available forms for wildshaping, as the situations are similar enough for some level of analogous treatment.

As far as that goes, I'm completely in the dark, I have no clue as far as wildshapes go since we only had experience with one druid before who lasted a session before leaving. I'll be sure to ask him about that though, thanks.

Wonderman
2011-01-26, 08:31 PM
Feats: Power Surge (1st), Shape Breath (human), Maximize Breath (3rd), Extend Breath (6th), Quicken Breath (9th), Heighten Breath (12th), Clinging Breath (15th), Lingering Breath (18th).

Since I wont be able to do the other things without being Dragonborn I was thinking of doing it this way, with the possibility of pushing everything back save power surge and adding Entangling Breath as my human feat while dropping Lingering breath end-game.

Also, where can I find the Power Surge feat, is it SRD cause I can't find it.

Thoughts?

Breath/ Invoc Preferences with this kind of build? (Definitely chilling fog)

Keld Denar
2011-01-26, 08:48 PM
Power Surge isn't in the SRD, its in a dragon magazine. Check the Dragonfire Handbook, I think JanusJones mentions which one it is.

I notice you dropped Entangling Exhalation. Just curious why?

Wonderman
2011-01-26, 09:01 PM
Feats: Entangling Exhalation (1st), Shape Breath (human), Clinging Breath (3rd), Lingering Breath (6th), Maximize Breath (9th), Extend Breath (12th), Quicken Breath(15th), Heighten Breath (18th).

Is my updated one, due to my DMs large restrictions on race etc., he is allowing me to take meta breath feats without technically having a BW expressed in rounds, they will each add 1 round to the next time I can use my BW.

Wonderman
2011-01-27, 11:06 AM
Now that I have my Feats down would anyone mind helping me tweak my Invocations and Breath effects?

Breath Effects: Frost Breath (2nd), Slow Breath (5th), Sleep Beath (10th), Thunder Breath (12th), Fivefold Breath (15th), Paralyzing Breath(20th)

Invocations: Endure Exposure (1st) ,Beguiling influence (3rd), Humanoid Shape (6th), Enthraling Voice (8th), Chilling Fog (11th), Draconic Toughness(13th), (16th), Energy Immunity (18th)

I'm considering swapping out Sleep breath for Acid or Lightning breath.

Keld Denar
2011-01-27, 11:13 AM
Sleep isn't terribly useful given that its [Mind Affecting], and a number of things are immune to sleep anyway, and it doesn't have a partial effect. I wouldn't get another element though. Between fire and cold, your bases are generally covered. The number of things you fight that are resistant/immune to both are pretty low, as generally things that are immune to one are vulnerable to the other. I forget what other 10th level breath effects there are, but you can always take a lower level one. As I said, I'm a huge fan of Weakening Breath.

Invocations look good. I dunno if someone else can take over face role, and if so, get Magical Affinity instead of Beguiling Influence. Its a free, at will Identify with no material cost. Thats pretty decent. Otherwise, I'm a huge fan of See the Unseen, since most DMs I've played under LOVE big mean invisible creatures...

Energy Immunity can be aquired by a caster from a MUCH lower level, so I'd consider changing it for something more useful. I forget what the good Dark invocations are for DFAs, so I won't make any suggestions.

Wonderman
2011-01-27, 11:20 AM
Sleep isn't terribly useful given that its [Mind Affecting], and a number of things are immune to sleep anyway, and it doesn't have a partial effect. I wouldn't get another element though. Between fire and cold, your bases are generally covered. The number of things you fight that are resistant/immune to both are pretty low, as generally things that are immune to one are vulnerable to the other. I forget what other 10th level breath effects there are, but you can always take a lower level one. As I said, I'm a huge fan of Weakening Breath.

Invocations look good. I dunno if someone else can take over face role, and if so, get Magical Affinity instead of Beguiling Influence. Its a free, at will Identify with no material cost. Thats pretty decent. Otherwise, I'm a huge fan of See the Unseen, since most DMs I've played under LOVE big mean invisible creatures...

Energy Immunity can be aquired by a caster from a MUCH lower level, so I'd consider changing it for something more useful. I forget what the good Dark invocations are for DFAs, so I won't make any suggestions.

Ya, I wouldn't take the face role if I didn't have to but alas, I am the only person who can matching in game RP with RL competence when dealing with NPCs. I really like Magical Affinity but i'm sure the Warlock in my group can take over that roll as far as identifying it. I really like see the unseen matched with a never ending smoke bottle and slow breath combo or chilling fog so I might switch it out for humanoid shape. Do you think thats a good idea? Also i'm adding weakening breath over sleep breath.

Edit: Had face roll :x

Keld Denar
2011-01-27, 11:34 AM
Humanoid Shape is REALLY REALLY REALLY strong if you use it to its potential. If you aren't going to really use it to the max, I'd swap it out.

Also, Void Sense would be better than See the Unseen if you are going to be firing into clouds a lot. Its higher level, but if you are swapping out Humanoid Shape, might as well get it. You don't care about concealment since you aren't targetting or making attack rolls. You are just laying the napalm over the area and letting the fire find what it needs to. The only advantage of See the Unseen is that it has a range of sight, rather than just the 30' range. Just a thought.

Wonderman
2011-01-27, 11:46 AM
Invocations: Endure Exposure (1st) ,Beguiling influence (3rd), Void Sense Or Magic Insight depending on what the DM has done so far? (6th), Enthraling Voice (8th), Chilling Fog (11th), Draconic Toughness(13th) Walk Unseen (16th), Greater Draconic flight (18th)

The problem with humanoid shape is my DM is very restricting and doesn't like me to go too overboard with Optimizing so i'm limited to probably 3.5 PHB races that I can turn into which isn't all that great.

Keld Denar
2011-01-27, 11:54 AM
Yea, the best shapes are in OA, along with the Blackscale Lizardfolk from MM....3? Not a whole lot of large sized humanoids.

Are you sure you mean Walk Unseen? Isn't there a Greater Invis effect you can take as a Dark invocation? Like, Retributive Invis or something? Otherwise, the Invis from Walk Unseen falls off every time you breath.

Diarmuid
2011-01-27, 11:58 AM
If you're going to be underground a lot, what are you doing to be able to see in the dark?

Wonderman
2011-01-27, 12:04 PM
If you're going to be underground a lot, what are you doing to be able to see in the dark?

Voidsense, Light (spell), Torches

And no, there isn't any higher level of invisibility for DAs.

Essence_of_War
2011-01-27, 12:46 PM
There is a pretty decent dragonfire adept handbook here:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!

They go through a ton of the possible tweaks and choices, give suggestions for breath combos, and rate all of the breath effects and invocations.

Amnestic
2011-01-27, 01:13 PM
If you get your DM to rule that Baleful Geas has a standard action cast time, you should definitely pick that up!

I'm not a huge fan of the Draconic Flight invocations personally, I'm fairly certain there's better things on offer.