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Unrest
2011-01-26, 06:16 PM
What it says on the tin: how would you go at mechanically building a Witch to get the most out of the BBBY (Big Bad Baba Yaga) feel?

Compulsory things I think are needed:
- a familiar (cat / toad / raven; maybe some ability tied to it, like temporarily assuming such a form?)
- brewing evul potions & poisoned apples
- riding a broom
- a crystal ball / scrying "through the pot"*, perhaps talking to the dead
- perhaps a way to create a hut out of thin air when needed
- aaaand some actual utility to survive in a D&D game.

* or maybe "through the cauldron", 'pot' sounds funny :d

No, I don't want answers like "play a wizard", though they admittedly get most of that. I'm looking for something more flavor-centric, something specialized in getting Snow-Whites to sleep and turning Hansel and Gretel into a nutritious (and skin-smoothening!) meal. Are there any classes or options (of any kind) that would be specialized in this kind of babayagal fare?

Elfin
2011-01-26, 06:37 PM
Well, there's the DMG Witch class, though admittedly it's pretty bare-bones.

Dsurion
2011-01-26, 06:40 PM
If you're open to homebrew, one of my players has been enjoying the heck out of this class (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Witch_%283.5e_Class%29).

LOTRfan
2011-01-26, 06:41 PM
There's also Jarrick's homebrew witch class. It gives you hexes, familiars, brew potion as a bonus feat, and you become immortal at 20th level (as long as your familiar doesn't die in combat, you rejuvenate after your "death").

EDIT: Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9176244#) it is.

Sillycomic
2011-01-26, 06:47 PM
Pathfinder made a witch class that includes curses and hexes and animal familiars as well.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch

Psyren
2011-01-26, 06:49 PM
Seconding Pathfinder Witch. It really has that whole "By the pricking of my thumbs" feel to it, especially at lower levels.

Elfin
2011-01-26, 06:50 PM
Well, as a baseline, let's look through these.

- a familiar (cat / toad / raven; maybe some ability tied to it, like temporarily assuming such a form?)

Easily done with a dip in Shapeshift druid.

- brewing evul potions & poisoned apples

Brew Potion feat.

- riding a broomstick

Broom of Flying.

- a crystal ball / scrying "through the pot"

A crystal ball and the Scrying spell.

- perhaps a way to create a hut out of thin air when needed

Leomund's Tiny Hut spell.

Looks like you want either a shapeshift druid 1/wizard or sorcerer 7 or a shapeshift druid 7/wizard 5. Or, for a more blasty witch, a simple shapeshift druid 1/warlock 4 using UMD.

JellyPooga
2011-01-26, 06:52 PM
The Wu Jen spell list is quite witch-esque in some respects; lots of poisoned stuff (from needles to toads!), polymorphing and spirit projection, which (witch?) all screams to me of the classic witchery you're looking for.

Unfortunatley, they suffer from a lack of familiar and aren't particularly specialised towards brewing potions and the like. They do, however, have their Watchful spirit class feature, which you could easily fluff as being a familiar of sorts (especially if you take some of the Feats that boost that particular ability).

One additional benefit to Wu Jen is that you have to take taboos, which also reeks of the classic witch given that they are, in effect, mild insanities (lives in a house on a giant chicken leg, won't eat any meat but children, etc.)

If you are averse to playing "just" a Wu Jen, then it might be worth at least considering adopting some of their class features or spells in some manner or another.

Elfin
2011-01-26, 06:54 PM
Well, since a dip in shapeshift druid covers the animal companion and shapeshifting, a shapeshift druid 1/wu jen X might work.

Urpriest
2011-01-26, 06:57 PM
Find the Dungeon issue that stats up Iggwilv and use that. She's Baba Yaga's daughter, she probably knows a thing or two about witchcraft!

Also, Dread Witch from Heroes of Horror.

Psyren
2011-01-26, 07:02 PM
*snip*

An excellent idea - Wu Jen make very good witches. The fluff even matches up (barbaric spellcasters who are smarter than they look.)

And they can get a familiar easily as they are arcanists.


Also, Dread Witch from Heroes of Horror.

The art is nice but I don't really see anything very "Witch-y" about this class. It has one schtick i.e. the fear thing, but it takes serious balls to live in a swamp so I just don't see much synergy between classic witches and the "get scared to scare others" mechanic.

Benejeseret
2011-01-26, 08:01 PM
Hexblade

(but really, go PF witch)

Hexblade could grant the curses, the familiar, and spells.
Between spells, and magic items the other abilities are easily found.

But, hexblade should have the authors suggested fixes to return some oomph to the curses.


Still, Sillycomic and others had it right. Get the DM to OK a Witch from Pathfinder then you are 100% set. The material is free and already linked. So long as you do not abuse the GREAT sleep ability the DM should be fine.

FMArthur
2011-01-26, 08:08 PM
I really don't see why this can't be a Wizard or Sorceror thing. You're not even altering or disregarding the given fluff when you make one into a "witch" - that's well within their purview right out of the box. Does seeing the word "wizard" on the sheet force you to make Dumbledore every time or something? Erase it and write "witch". Focus on the things that witches do.

Saph
2011-01-26, 08:09 PM
Have to put in another vote for the Pathfinder Witch. It really fits the flavour very well and it's an extremely powerful class into the bargain.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-26, 08:10 PM
Well, others may have already suggested better junk, but I'd like to mention that the Warlock has an invocation that can put someone into a *permanent* sleep (IIRC). They can also (if high enough level) change people into toads and whatnot, also permanently, and create large-scale illusions; twisting normal terrain into a nightmarish landscape with trees and grass grasping at anyone who enters, seems pretty cool to me.

They can take and use brew potion if necessary by 12th level, and can gain a familiar with the feat from CA. You might find other invocations of theirs useful as well, like maybe call of the beast (CM), which lets them speak with animals and stuff.

Edit: Also a crystal ball is just an item, which anyone can use. Same goes for a broom of flying, and warlocks of course can craft whatever they want, with the appropriate feats.

VacantPsalm
2011-01-26, 08:15 PM
I've thought about making a witch class but never really got anywhere with it. One mechanic I'd use though would be the ability to create material components out of stuff to boost spell casting. (increase caster level, add free metamagic, etc.) At later levels there would be creepy options to get components that are unobtainable morally speaking like a hand of a child.

That would totally explane why they would want to kidnap random kids that get lost in their woods. It would also give worried towns people a reason to want to burn them even if they're good. And most of all, it can create an awesome temptation for player characters who find themselves in a tight position that can be a lot more survivable with the unmoral choice. You're in a cottage with the 5 kids that were kidnapped and there's a mob about to bust down the door, would it be so bad to harm one of them to help ensure the survival of them all?

The basic idea (outside of the dark stuff and fluff) would be less options then a Wizard but an opportunity to use wealth to boost power. I haven't played / DMed enough to know a balanced way to do that. (I've never played a game over 9th level.)

Czin
2011-01-26, 08:20 PM
I really don't see why this can't be a Wizard or Sorceror thing. You're not even altering or disregarding the given fluff when you make one into a "witch" - that's well within their purview right out of the box. Does seeing the word "wizard" on the sheet force you to make Dumbledore every time or something? Erase it and write "witch". Focus on the things that witches do.

Some people are insistent on a totally unique class for each archetype, WotC listens to these people because it allows them to sell more splatbooks. That said, I think that the suggestions given in this thread are great, hexes are quite a lot of fun from what I have seen.

Analytica
2011-01-26, 08:28 PM
I've thought about making a witch class but never really got anywhere with it. One mechanic I'd use though would be the ability to create material components out of stuff to boost spell casting. (increase caster level, add free metamagic, etc.) At later levels there would be creepy options to get components that are unobtainable morally speaking like a hand of a child.

This can be done with the Primitive Caster feat from Faerun.

Sillycomic
2011-01-26, 08:38 PM
You could easily do it with a cleric as well.

Focus on hex-like spells such as Bestow Curse, Darkness, Blindness/Deafness and summoning Monsters (dogs, cats, spiders, all witch-like)

Take plant, air, travel or trickery domain and fluff the cleric as having no particular god but an otherly spirit that guides her fate.


(this is kinda what the Pathfinder Witch does anyway, it just adds a few hex specials and throws in some Arcane witch-like spells such as arcane eye and black tentacles)


Plus, if you're a good witch you can focus on healing and if you're a bad witch you can focus on dealing pain.

Unrest
2011-01-27, 12:25 PM
@Dsurion: ...indeed, it looks awesome. "Familiar: Alternatively, the Witch may opt to gain a familiar. This works like the Sorcerer and Wizard, except if it dies then the Witch merely becomes sad for a little while, and another one can be summoned the following day." The way it's written made my day Would take some tweaking, but provides a really neat frame. All witches I'll ever put into campaigns will be flying either bathtubs or vacuum cleaners.

@FMarthur: I have a potent imagination of my own, but it is always completely overridden by an image I may see. This is why if I see the picture for Wu-Jen, a Wizard, a Ranger, or a Mystic Theurge, I am unable to imagine it any way else. Just a personal limitation. That's one thing. The other is, I don't like the idea "well, you could actually choose what spells you want if I don't Rule 0 you, but simply choose the spells so that they sound witchy". I don't really like spells on the whole. A class with imaginative active class features attracts me tons more than any sort of thing that casts from all spell lists ever, even though it is a whole lot more restrictive. And all spells are the same. And you feel that it's only you who's got that cool, flavorful, classic SLA. That's about it for me wishing to have a class for every archetype. And you know, the old scheme: "There's a fighter, barbarian, ranger, rogue, monk, paladin, because they are so diverse; and everyone knows that the only thing all the wizards and sorcerers in the world differ by is the spontaneity of casting." It's annoying to me, simply.\

@VacantPsalm: using various items to boost magic is one verily cool idea! Primitive Caster is in which book, Analysis? Can't find it in PGtF.

Thanks everybody for the aid, now I have lots of mechanical material to solve the ideas I had for a cool enemy for the PCs to face (to then, by means of DM-fu, transform it into obviously-less-powerful PC for the newcomer) :)

Chuckthedwarf
2011-01-27, 03:39 PM
What it says on the tin: how would you go at mechanically building a Witch to get the most out of the BBBY (Big Bad Baba Yaga) feel?

Compulsory things I think are needed:
- a familiar (cat / toad / raven; maybe some ability tied to it, like temporarily assuming such a form?)
- brewing evul potions & poisoned apples
- riding a broom
- a crystal ball / scrying "through the pot"*, perhaps talking to the dead
- perhaps a way to create a hut out of thin air when needed
- aaaand some actual utility to survive in a D&D game.

* or maybe "through the cauldron", 'pot' sounds funny :d

No, I don't want answers like "play a wizard", though they admittedly get most of that. I'm looking for something more flavor-centric, something specialized in getting Snow-Whites to sleep and turning Hansel and Gretel into a nutritious (and skin-smoothening!) meal. Are there any classes or options (of any kind) that would be specialized in this kind of babayagal fare?

I know, this is kind of a lame advice, but a Beguiler or the Fey Bard (or whatever the hell it's called, that really lame bard variant that loses all music ability for some low level druid class abilities...) kinda make sense thematically.

If you consider witches from various stories, they don't really seem all that magical by themselves. They aren't studious wizards, and they generally aren't spontaneous geniuses like sorcerers. They seem to rely on various social skills - and both bard and beguiler has a lot of those, and minor effects to deceive and charm people (again, kinda bard/beguiler specialization here). They're certainly very cunning, but very often the actual magic is done via magical items (Use Magic Device, class skill for both bard and beguiler), poisons (Craft, I guess. Possibly Handle Animal as well) or spells that invoked curses or put entire kingdoms to sleep.

sure, the latter is kinda over the top for your average bard, or even for a non-epic wizard, but hey, that's where you can homebrew some stuff. And 3.0 D&D had a really nice book with curses which you can adapt if you really want. There were even some bard-only curses...

So, yeah, I think Bard/Beguiler or some weird combination of both (like, take away bard's music and replace it with some of the beguiler's class abilities.

Chuckthedwarf
2011-01-27, 03:40 PM
@Dsurion: ...indeed, it looks awesome. "Familiar: Alternatively, the Witch may opt to gain a familiar. This works like the Sorcerer and Wizard, except if it dies then the Witch merely becomes sad for a little while, and another one can be summoned the following day." The way it's written made my day Would take some tweaking, but provides a really neat frame. All witches I'll ever put into campaigns will be flying either bathtubs or vacuum cleaners.

@FMarthur: I have a potent imagination of my own, but it is always completely overridden by an image I may see. This is why if I see the picture for Wu-Jen, a Wizard, a Ranger, or a Mystic Theurge, I am unable to imagine it any way else. Just a personal limitation. That's one thing. The other is, I don't like the idea "well, you could actually choose what spells you want if I don't Rule 0 you, but simply choose the spells so that they sound witchy". I don't really like spells on the whole. A class with imaginative active class features attracts me tons more than any sort of thing that casts from all spell lists ever, even though it is a whole lot more restrictive. And all spells are the same. And you feel that it's only you who's got that cool, flavorful, classic SLA. That's about it for me wishing to have a class for every archetype. And you know, the old scheme: "There's a fighter, barbarian, ranger, rogue, monk, paladin, because they are so diverse; and everyone knows that the only thing all the wizards and sorcerers in the world differ by is the spontaneity of casting." It's annoying to me, simply.\

@VacantPsalm: using various items to boost magic is one verily cool idea! Primitive Caster is in which book, Analysis? Can't find it in PGtF.

Thanks everybody for the aid, now I have lots of mechanical material to solve the ideas I had for a cool enemy for the PCs to face (to then, by means of DM-fu, transform it into obviously-less-powerful PC for the newcomer) :)

Primitive Caster is in the Frostburn, page 49 to be exact.

As for "creepy" components, I think in one of the "evil" books there are various rules for sacrifices and various morally questionable components like brains of someone you killed being used as a free metamagic for evil (possibly vile?) spells.

Not sure which book though.

Analytica
2011-01-27, 04:49 PM
Primitive Caster is in the Frostburn, page 49 to be exact.

There's also a version in Races of Faerun.


As for "creepy" components, I think in one of the "evil" books there are various rules for sacrifices and various morally questionable components like brains of someone you killed being used as a free metamagic for evil (possibly vile?) spells.

Not sure which book though.

Book of Vile Darkness.

If you want SLAs rather than casting, that one might actually have a few PrCs that could work.