Ian is lying

[Blas_de_Lezo]

I don't know why, but I just feel that Ian is lying. I don't buy his story. Therefore he's a master thief who taught his daughter never to tell the truth.

Someone thought the same?

EDIT (I quote myself in order to avoid answering the same question again and again): A rogue deciding to get caught in a dangerous country, ruled by a treacherous, violent, unmerciful, high level dictator, where many prisoners are executed, burned or gladiated to death? Who would want to go voluntary to prison? Maybe Ian was being too naive to think that he could free a country inside a jail, but instead I tend to believe he's smart enough (he has survived in jail until now, after all) to know how to recognize a very ingenuous idea. He's lying for some reason. Maybe he already knows who's the bug. Or maybe he was imprisoned for some other reason...

[SPoD]

Could go either way.

He did teach her that she can trust family, so he might be telling her the truth. Note that Roy and Belkar are out of earshot for this strip, so we only need to judge whether he would tell the truth to Haley, not to others.

[HappyBlanket]

He taught his daughter not to trust anybody but family. His daughter is included in family.

There isn't much supporting either side in regards to whether or not he's lying.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

He taught his daughter not to trust anybody but family. His daughter is included in family.

There isn't much supporting either side in regards to whether or not he's lying.

Well, he does know that Haley is not alone. And of course he won't trust the "stuffed shirt" or the psicotic halfling (he knows Belkar has been bullying other prisoners).

And he thinks Haley has been manipulating Roy and Belkar, so now he could be just "following the game". Later on, he could explain Haley on private.

I don't know the reason for him to lie, nevertheless I still feel he's lying!

A rogue deciding to get caught in a dangerous country, ruled by a treacherous high level dictator, where many prisoners are executed, burned or gladiated to death? Come on! I just don't buy it!

[TimelordSimone]

And he thinks Haley has been manipulating Roy and Belkar, so now he could be just "following the game". Later on, he could explain Haley on private.

Yeah, as SPoD said, Roy and Belkar are elsewhere. This conversation is, to all intents and purposes, in private.

[NerfTW]

I don't know why, but I just feel that Ian is lying. I don't buy his story. Therefore he's a master thief who taught his daughter never to tell the truth.

Someone thought the same?

I don't think so. While "hey, Ian lies a lot" is a good reason, keep in mind that this is also a story, that has to be enjoyable and coherent. Ian himself even points out how convoluted Tarquin's plan is. Adding in "Ian lied about his ransom, now he's lying about the resistance" just bogs down the arc in pointless time wasting. The only thing worse than someone lying constantly is someone lying constantly in a story while giving exposition.

The "I was lying the whole time, and just now, and now again" bit is very difficult to pull off even without other plot lines, let alone in the middle of several complicated ones. All this would do is annoy readers.

[Thanatosia]

Ian's Story Lines up too well with Bozok's for me to think he's lying.

Link Martianmister brought up in the discussion thread: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html

Bozok claims he had 2 of his associates send Ian a message to get him out of the picture, which made Ian run off to another continent.

Ian claims Ivy and Geoff got him involved in this scheme to run a resistance movement from within Tarquin's Empire.

The stories line up without Ian having any reason to Collaberate with Bozok in lining up the storries. Him trusting Ivy and Geoff is also consistant with Ian's proclamation of trusting family but no one else. It fits too well with Ian being a dupe of Ivy/Geoff working for Bozok, which means Ian is not lying. I'm guessing Ivy and/or Geoff is also the reason Ian's escape attempts have failed.

[LuPuWei]

Ian's Story Lines up too well with Bozok's for me to think he's lying.

Link Martianmister brought up in the discussion thread: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html

Bozok claims he had 2 of his associates send Ian a message to get him out of the picture, which made Ian run off to another continent.

Ian claims Ivy and Geoff got him involved in this scheme to run a resistance movement from within Tarquin's Empire.

The stories line up without Ian having any reason to Collaberate with Bozok in lining up the storries. Him trusting Ivy and Geoff is also consistant with Ian's proclamation of trusting family but no one else. It fits too well with Ian being a dupe of Ivy/Geoff working for Bozok, which means Ian is not lying. I'm guessing Ivy and/or Geoff is also the reason Ian's escape attempts have failed.

Exactly! That makes complete sense! Ivy and Geoff working for Bozzok lines up perfectly with Bozzok's story (also Geoff looks pretty evil in the last panel there, goatee and all :smallbiggrin:)

I was thinking the same thing as I read through this thread, but the idea that Geoff is the 'bug' (rather than Ian's bugs) is a great catch. This explains alot.

Except why Ivy and Geoff would be disposed towards betraying Ian in the first place... Any mention of Ivy in previous strips?

Edit (Afterthought) : Also, if Geoff happens to be the bug, think back to all the time Roy and Belkar have spent in the prison with him. Tarquin probably knows everything about the Orders plans. Heck, that might be why they're having midweek games! (Let me check back on that though :smallwink:

[Kolero]

When I first read the strip, I thought that something was off about about Ian's reason for coming to the western continent. The idea of coming to start a rebellion... struck me as far to idealistic for someone who wasn't a resident of those parts, particularly for someone of his age. The impression I got was he had a stable career in Graysky(stable for a thief at least.) I was left wondering why he would leave on some crusade for the sake of chaotic goodness when he was fairly popular at home and close enough to the top of the thief's guild to be a threat. It may be that the whole rebellion idea was for the sake of Ivy and Geoff that he came, but I would tend to think he would be more likely to offer family a place in Graysky rather than to come on a dangerous errand.

As for the letter that called him over, that part makes perfect since with what we know. I have to agree that at least Ivy and possibly Geoff are plants working for Bozzok. If Ian is lying, then it is about his motivation for coming but not about the letter or Ivy and Geoff. The question then is, what other reason would he have to get into prison, or is the rebellion thing just a lie to cover up the fact that he didn't really plan to be in jail?



Also, if Geoff happens to be the bug, think back to all the time Roy and Belkar have spent in the prison with him. Tarquin probably knows everything about the Orders plans.

What makes you think either of them are working with Tarquin? I think it most likely that they are working solely for Bozzok and if Geoff is the bug, he only uses the guards to keep Ian in prison, not pass along information. Still, looking back at http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0753.html with the idea that Tarquin knows who Roy and Belkar are does give the idea some credibility.

[martianmister]

Except why Ivy and Geoff would be disposed towards betraying Ian in the first place... Any mention of Ivy in previous strips?

They could be parents of Cousin Sheila... :smallwink:

[Heksefatter]

I have a hard time seeing Geoff as the bug. Who would want to stay as a prisoner in the lousy dungeons, in order to remove a threat to some half-orc's position as leader of the thieves guild? That'd be pretty impressive loyalty.

It is possible that Ivy is a bug, but even that seems far-fetched. Again, it seems pretty drastic to stay on a post a continent away, just to help keeping some guy in prison. It is possible, of course, if she's actually also a local liason for Bozok.

I don't know if the explanation that occurs to me is much better: Ian is being recaptured, because his means of escape are all countered by Tarquin's genre-saviness. Tarquin simply knows what a master thief would do, and has included means of countering that in his handbook.

[Nimrod's Son]

I have a hard time seeing Geoff as the bug. Who would want to stay as a prisoner in the lousy dungeons, in order to remove a threat to some half-orc's position as leader of the thieves guild? That'd be pretty impressive loyalty.

It is possible that Ivy is a bug, but even that seems far-fetched. Again, it seems pretty drastic to stay on a post a continent away, just to help keeping some guy in prison. It is possible, of course, if she's actually also a local liason for Bozok.

I don't know if the explanation that occurs to me is much better: Ian is being recaptured, because his means of escape are all countered by Tarquin's genre-saviness. Tarquin simply knows what a master thief would do, and has included means of countering that in his handbook.
If I had to pick one storyline of the two, I'd take "Ian is being betrayed by his own family, having ingrained in Haley that they are the only people in the world she can trust" over "Tarquin knows exactly how any given person is going to act at any given time", hands down.

[Roderick_BR]

Could go either way.

He did teach her that she can trust family, so he might be telling her the truth. Note that Roy and Belkar are out of earshot for this strip, so we only need to judge whether he would tell the truth to Haley, not to others.
This. When he thinks Roy works for her, he whispers a few things for her, congratulating her for manipulating people. After they walk away, he opens up.

On another note: Happy little disfunctional family, eh?

[Swordpriest]

Sure looks like the truth to me. However, I guess only time will tell.

[NerfTW]

Geoff is working with Bozzok because the alternative is to kill Ian.

Look at it this way, he either imprisons himself and Ian for a few years, tipping off the guards every time they escape, until Bozzok has a firm hold over the theives guild, or his brother in law gets killed by Bozzok for being a threat.

[Dr.Epic]

Why would he lie to his daughter? Also, I think you need a little more evidence than just "He's a rogue! He must be lying!"

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Why would he lie to his daughter? Also, I think you need a little more evidence than just "He's a rogue! He must be lying!"

Well, a rogue deciding to get caught in a dangerous country, ruled by a treacherous violent unmerciful high level dictator, where many prisoners are executed, burned or gladiated to death? Who would want to go voluntary to prison? Maybe Ian was being too naive to think that he could free a country inside a jail, but instead I tend to believe he's smart enough to know how to recognize a very ingenuous idea. He's lying for some reason. Maybe he already knows who's the bug. Maybe he was imprisoned for some other reason.

[JonestheSpy]

You know, I realize that people want dramatic headlines and such, but I really do wish that the folks who start threads like this would be a little more realistic in their presentation. The accurate title for this thread, for instance, is:

I think Ian is lying

[Dr.Epic]

Well, a rogue deciding to get caught in a dangerous country, ruled by a treacherous violent unmerciful high level dictator, where many prisoners are executed, burned or gladiated to death? Who would want to go voluntary to prison? Maybe Ian was being too naive to think that he could free a country inside a jail, but instead I tend to believe he's smart enough to know how to recognize a very ingenuous idea. He's lying for some reason. Maybe he already knows who's the bug. Maybe he was imprisoned for some other reason.

You think Ian's too smart to be kept prisoner? What? I'm not calling the guy dumb, but how much screen time has he gotten? How much do we know about him? Not all rogues are super intelligent masterminds capable of Batman gambit type stuff.

He underestimated the bad guys. It happens. He made a mistake.

[Jarawara]

1) Geoff and Ivy convinced Ian of the whole "Get caught and raise a rebellion from inside" idea. This kept Ian under wraps and further they tipped off the guards to keep him from escaping.

2) Geoff and Ivy also informed Tarquin, convinced him to send the ransom note. This is because Geoff and Ivy were using Ian as a lure to draw in Haley and bring her to 'justice'. Tarquin went along with this, as he'll collect the million shmuckers ransom.

and 3) Belkar is Elan's half-father, and at the end of the storyline there will be a wedding scene where an undead Belkar will walk Elan down the wedding isle to give the groom to Haley.


I am equally convinced of the certainty of all three of these items, cross my heartless chest and hope to die again.

[Coidzor]

I don't know why, but I just feel that Ian is lying. I don't buy his story. Therefore he's a master thief who taught his daughter never to tell the truth.

Someone thought the same?

Err, That would either be "because he's a master thief..." or "he's a master thief who taught his daughter never to tell the truth, therefore..."


It does seem fairly likely that there is something he's not letting on or that Geoff isn't letting on to him or both though. But, frankly, the walls have ears and all. And there's a lot of other ears that aren't wall-based anyway.

[Shale]

From what Haley said, this wouldn't be the first "clever" idea Ian's had that came back to bite him in the ass.

"Okay, the important thing to remember here is that it seemed like a really good idea at the time."
"Gee, I've never heard you say THAT before."

[Dr.Epic]

From what Haley said, this wouldn't be the first "clever" idea Ian's had that came back to bite him in the ass.

How do you know Ian has a donkey?:smallwink:

[NerfTW]

I think people are getting confused by the events in question.


Step 1: Ian lets himself get caught so he can form a rebellion from Arena prisoners.

Step 2: After a few days: That was a stupid idea. Let's go.

Step 3: Geoff tips off the guards and gets them caught.

Step 4: Repeats steps 2 and 3 over and over, because Ian trusts family above all else and doesn't realize Geoff is how they keep catching them. Geoff is likely in on the plan because it's a better alternative to killing Ian.

In all likelyhood, Tarquin has nothing to do with any of this. He might not even be aware of the constantly escaping prisoners.

[Warren Dew]

Given what we've seen of Tarquin and Ian, I think it's quite possible that Ian simply isn't good enough to escape Tarquin's prison. Don't forget how Tarquin tracked down those slaves that Haley and Vaarsuvius escorted far enough out of the city that they thought they were safe.


If I had to pick one storyline of the two, I'd take "Ian is being betrayed by his own family, having ingrained in Haley that they are the only people in the world she can trust" over "Tarquin knows exactly how any given person is going to act at any given time", hands down.
In which case, ironically, Ian, far from teaching Haley to be too suspicious, actually taught her not to be suspicious enough.

[tribble]

I think Ian is lying

OP's position is that Ian is lying. We know it's his opinion, reminding us that it's his opinion and nothing more is superflous and bad argumentative technique. There is no "I think" in rhetoric, it is. I really don't see why you're complaining about someone exhibiting good nonfiction writing style in a forum.

[Nimrod's Son]

In which case, ironically, Ian, far from teaching Haley to be too suspicious, actually taught her not to be suspicious enough.
That's a rather poor lesson to take from this. :smallwink:

[SPoD]

In all likelyhood, Tarquin has nothing to do with any of this. He might not even be aware of the constantly escaping prisoners.

I agree, there's no evidence that Tarquin has ever heard the name "Ian Starshine" before. His ally, Myron, handled the ransom note, and while Tarquin is in charge overall, his allies seem to have a good deal of operational freedom.

I would bet that Bozzok is funneling money to Geoff and Ivy so that Geoff will keep Ian locked down. It's likely easier for him to send gold every month than to deal with Ian's return to Greysky. It would have to be a fair sum to justify Geoff living in prison for years, too.

The real question is, do Geoff and Ivy even HAVE a revolutionary group, or are they just pocketing Bozzok's money? I'm not sure either way. It may even be that Geoff thinks he's helping Ian by keeping him safe. It's too early to tell.

[NerfTW]

It would have to be a fair sum to justify Geoff living in prison for years, too.


Like I said before, it's extremely likely that Geoff is doing this out of LOVE for his family, not betrayal. Bozzok said he killed most of his rivals, but Ian was too well liked. Geoff knows that if Ian were to return, Bozzok would have no choice but to kill him. Keeping him in prison is keeping him safe.

I don't think this is a matter of money at all.

[Hake]

Actually I think this is all about money though Geoff is likely clueless. Ivy accepts a deal from Bozzok where she sells out Geoff and Ian to Tarquin who keeps them trapped in prison. Tarquin has an interest in setting up fake resistance groups and sees Ian as a useful pawn in recruiting talented characters which explains why he doesn't just execute the master thief who his prison has proven incapable of holding.

Doubtful Geoff would risk his life or live in a prison for years for any kind of payoff. Geoff likely believes in the resistance group and agrees to help Ivy.

Ian is probably in the same situation as Geoff.

The only thing that seems odd to me is Haley not knowing Ivy or Geoff were in the western continent. The ransom note was sent by either Tarquin or someone working for Tarquin meaning someone would have to let Tarquin know that Ian had family capable of gathering that much money.

Bozzok and Ivy are the only characters we know that would suggest a ransom to Haley however if they're plan was to get rid of Haley why not immediately let Haley know that Ivy was in the general area? Ivy works out a plan with Haley to bust out Ian and immediately double crosses Haley leaving her in prison.

[Nimrod's Son]

Bozzok and Ivy are the only characters we know that would suggest a ransom to Haley however if they're plan was to get rid of Haley why not immediately let Haley know that Ivy was in the general area? Ivy works out a plan with Haley to bust out Ian and immediately double crosses Haley leaving her in prison.
From what we see in Origins, it doesn't look at all like Bozzok wanted Haley to leave the guild at the time she got the note.

[Heksefatter]

If I had to pick one storyline of the two, I'd take "Ian is being betrayed by his own family, having ingrained in Haley that they are the only people in the world she can trust" over "Tarquin knows exactly how any given person is going to act at any given time", hands down.

Generally speaking, yes. But the theories of family betrayal still seem thin. Particularly the Geoff-betrayal that has been suggested.

[Warren Dew]

Like I said before, it's extremely likely that Geoff is doing this out of LOVE for his family, not betrayal. Bozzok said he killed most of his rivals, but Ian was too well liked. Geoff knows that if Ian were to return, Bozzok would have no choice but to kill him. Keeping him in prison is keeping him safe.
That would be sweet. It seems a bit complex for this comic, though.

[grimbold]

or Ian was lying to haley from the beginning
TARQUIN IS HER FATHER!

no but really seeing how Ian really loves his daughter he's probably not lying

[NerfTW]

That would be sweet. It seems a bit complex for this comic, though.

How so? That's pretty much on par with the characters in this comic. It's not complex at all.

"Hey Geoff, why are you the mole?"
"Well Ian, the options are hold you in prison or kill you. And I'm not killing you."


If anything, that's a massive cliche, not complex.

And besides that, what are you proposing is *less* complex?

-That there is a sum of money capable of keeping Geoff in prison sabotaging his brother in law?

-That Ivy is able to be paid enough to keep her husband and brother in prison indefinitely?

-That there is yet another group of spies keeping constant watch on Ian for the last few years?

-That Bozzok's big plan to keep Ian out of the way is to just stick him in prison and hope Tarquin can hold him? After he outright states that he killed most of his rivals rather than risk thier return?

-That the incredibly blatent, neon sign statement that there is a mole very close to Ian that is alerting the guards when he escapes is just a red herring?

[Shoelessgdowar]

Generally speaking, yes. But the theories of family betrayal still seem thin. Particularly the Geoff-betrayal that has been suggested.

We know Cousin Sheila is the type to frame a family member... A cousin has parents who tend to be an Aunt and an Uncle... Sheila most likely is Ivy and Geoff's daughter, which means if she is anything like her parents (or they are anything like her) betraying family isn't that big a deal for them.

Though I sort of like the Tarquin being Haley's father idea from a Star Wars homage standpoint... Tarquin is already the father of a Blond son who is a twin, was raised in poverty, grew up to be a hero who joins a class that prefers words over violence, yet learns to fight competently from an exiled master of an obscure style, meanwhile Tarquin himself is a member of an Empire who was formed through political trickery and deception to facilitate ascension to complete power over the region along side a pasty-skinned black hooded figure who appears to seek a mastery over the powers of death and destruction, and Tarquin wears armor that hides that he is a wrinkly old man, yet he is as skilled at combat as his son if not more so, and sought for his son to join him... so the whole Haley and Elan really being siblings who kissed would only further the whole Star Wars parable.

However, I really doubt she is, and that would be ring of epic creepiness +12 if it turns out they were, since we know what they have allegedly done together.

[Haggis]

I'm pretty sure its not Geoff. I mean look how quickly the guards tracked down the escaped slaves.

[Onyavar]

Wow. This thread is awesome.

I also support the idea that Geoff is the mole. If there is one lesson from our real world, then it's that evil bureaucratic dictatorships almost everytime have a gigantic spying system. They know when a citizen goes for toilet and they know which neighboring country is planning what.

So, Tarquin is not only genre-savy, he is knowing almost everything what happens in his country, and using his knowledge all too well:
- Dealing with rogue nations (pun on Greysky City), and observing the political climate there, using every chance that could be profitable? Check.
- Having a mole in your prison, who works together with his enthusiastically CG brother-in-law to identify the real trouble-makers and eliminate them in the arena? Check.
- Having spies in the governments of your fellow dictators, to supervize their every actions, so that he knows when they possibly betray him (and since his "friends" know about that, they follow his orders and live their happy wealthy lifes)? Check.
- Staging a narrow escape of the OotS from the arena prison, so that many years later, his son can kill him in a battle and inherit the rule over the whole continent, while Tarquin goes down in history as the most ruthless ruler in history? Che... wait, can we get confirmation on that?

I'm waiting for revelations how Girard fits in Tarquins schemes...

[dps]

Edit (Afterthought) : Also, if Geoff happens to be the bug, think back to all the time Roy and Belkar have spent in the prison with him. Tarquin probably knows everything about the Orders plans. Heck, that might be why they're having midweek games! (Let me check back on that though :smallwink:

The problem with that is that Tarquin has no reason to oppose the Order's plans. He (as best as we can tell) doesn't know the details of their quest, but he knows that they're going up against some world-threatening evil (that's not him), and he has no intention of allowing some other evil overlord type to take over the world.

[Kish]

I tend to believe he's smart enough to know how to recognize a very ingenuous idea.
You know, it's a funny thing I've noticed.

The comic has no shortage of characters who are stupid. And characters who are mostly smart but do stupid things. And I'm drawing a blank on characters who have, in fact, never done anything really stupid.

Yet somehow, a number of posters on the forum exhibit this strange reluctance to believe that what appears to be a character doing something stupid is actually a character doing something stupid, whether that character is Elan, Belkar, Roy, Xykon, Girard, or Ian Starshine.

Yes, Ian is a master thief. But he used to be a 1ed thief, and right up until 3ed, Intelligence did exactly nothing for him; from the moment he was created until now, Wisdom was/is a thief/rogue's stereotypical dump stat (not to say, it certainly appears to be Haley's dump stat). If you want to base an argument that he can't actually be clumsy on him being a master thief, that would be a better argument.

[Shale]

The comic has no shortage of characters who are stupid. And characters who are mostly smart but do stupid things. And I'm drawing a blank on characters who have, in fact, never done anything really stupid.


There are some, but it's pretty much limited to background characters like Goblin Dan or those with very few appearances like the Oracle.

With regards to Ian, it didn't even take a single strip for Haley to tell us that he has a history of getting in over his head with plans that "sounded like a good idea at the time."

[Voice of Reason]

Hmm, I don't know, but its possible that he's lying about wanting to get out because:

If Haley breaks him out against his will, he won't have to owe her for the bail/salvation fee. Of course, that's a pretty long-shot bet; I still foresee the matter coming up later though, regardless.

[Shoelessgdowar]

There are some, but it's pretty much limited to background characters like Goblin Dan or those with very few appearances like the Oracle.

With regards to Ian, it didn't even take a single strip for Haley to tell us that he has a history of getting in over his head with plans that "sounded like a good idea at the time."

Oracle did plenty of dumb stuff... Mr.Scruffy, Roy's brother, Banjo, and Giggles are examples of ones who have not.

[Thanatosia]

And I'm drawing a blank on characters who have, in fact, never done anything really stupid.
O-chul? Unless you count overt over the top bravery as stupidity.

[PsychedelicBard]

Bozzok and Ivy are the only characters we know that would suggest a ransom to Haley however if they're plan was to get rid of Haley why not immediately let Haley know that Ivy was in the general area? Ivy works out a plan with Haley to bust out Ian and immediately double crosses Haley leaving her in prison.

We know Ivy? Since when?

[Hake]

We know Ivy? Since when?

Well we know she exists and about as well as any other character yet to be properly introduced. Shes somehow involved in this scheme and the most likely character to constantly rat out Ian.

[King of Nowhere]

I tougth about it, but can't really believe it.
Say what you want, I can't picture Geoff willingly deciding to stay in prison just to keep there Ian.
The only way I could picture it would be if Tarquin is helding hostage someone dear to him (maybe a son or daugther), but it still don't make much sense: if Tarquin knew Ian was dangerous, he wouldn't set up a spy on him, he would kill him outrigth.
In fact, I'd rule out the idea that Tarquin set up some special plan to keep Ian. HE would execute him on the spot, not try hard to keep him.
And I don't think Bozzok copuld have gone to such a length; not only he didn't seem the tipe to do something so needlessly complicated, but if Ian could break free, he'd definitely stay in the western continent to try a revolution.

That leaves Ivy to be a traitor. That could certainly be. But how could she know when Ian is trying to escape and where to find him? And again, for who would she be working if Tarquin is not involved?

I feel there's somethi8ng wrong with the whole story, but I find unlikely that someone is a traitor, or that Tarquin is taking special precautions for Ian. In fact, there's nothing I find likely. I'm waiting to see the mistery revealed.

P.S. the reason Ian let himself be captured is simply that he tougth he could escape at any time.

[Durgok]

I think this whole situation may be that Ivy and Geoff sent Ian a message asking him to come start a revolution in the western continent... being 100% honest (But at the same time assisting Bozzok by getting Ian out of the way) and that the being stuck in jail is just that... they're stuck.

[PsychedelicBard]

Well we know she exists and about as well as any other character yet to be properly introduced. Shes somehow involved in this scheme and the most likely character to constantly rat out Ian.

You see, that's the problem. You say she's the most likely character to rat out Ian, but we know nothing about her. Geoff is more likely to betray Ian if only for family ties, because there's no reason for Ivy to sell out her own brother (There's also no reason for Geoff to betray Ian either, but that's not the point). The only thing we know about her is quite positive, she's smuggling food to Ian.

[Hake]

You see, that's the problem. You say she's the most likely character to rat out Ian, but we know nothing about her. Geoff is more likely to betray Ian if only for family ties, because there's no reason for Ivy to sell out her own brother (There's also no reason for Geoff to betray Ian either, but that's not the point). The only thing we know about her is quite positive, she's smuggling food to Ian.

Speculation is the best we can do and I see nothing wrong with that. Family doesn't always mean loyalty which we saw when the group first went to Greysky city. Now there are four unusual things we know or reasonably suspect.

#1. Someone is giving away information about Ian's escape attemps and Ivy or Geoff are the only two people he'd trusts in that city.

#2. A master thief who has repeatedly escaped and been caught has yet to be executed.

#3. A ransom note was sent to Haley about Ian's capture and the only known characters who knew of Haley and were in any way involved in Ian's affairs were Bozzok, Ivy, or Geoff. As someone has pointed out Bozzok didn't want to get rid of Haley at the time she received the letter.

#4. As genre-savvy and careful as people like to say Tarquin is Ivy somehow manages to continually sneak into the prison.


I see things playing out this way. Being a part of one of Tarquin's fake resistance groups Ivy accepts a deal to sell out her brother for a cut of the Guild's gold. Seeing an opportunity to use Ian to recruit potential rebels and control their actions she leaves Ian stuck in prison. Tarquin sees no problem with this as it suits his plans. Ivy easily "sneaks into" the prison because the guards let her by pretty simple. Whenever Ian attempts to escape Ivy gives him away to Tarquin who spares Ian so he can continue looking for potential rebels.

As for the ransom note even Ivy suggested the idea to Tarquin so she can increase her payoff or as a way to further convince Tarquin of a reason to keep Ian alive.

[King of Nowhere]

the fact that she can smuggle food doesn't mean that she have to go in prison personally. Probably she pays some guards to deliver packages to her brother.

And I don't think Tarquin is involved with the ransom note. That was sent two years ago (plus what time it took to travel half the world) and Ian implies that he was sent to the arena to figth several times before the chief of the prison decided he was no fun. If Tarquin was involved with the ransom, he'd leave orders to not put him in the arena, to not endanger the potential ransom.
I admit the chance that they regularly take ransoms and say "sorry, the person you ransomed is dead, we're not giving your money back", but that would be dangerous, since many would want to check before giving the money.

The most likely scenario is that when Ian was imprisoned, some random bureaucrat made some research and found out that he had a daugther in the thieves' guild of Greysky, so he decided to send the ransom note.
After that, Ian was still sent to the arena, probably the rigth people were not informed, or the documents were lost.



I don't even think it is necessary for someone to betray Ian. All it would take would be putting on him some simple spell that aloows to track him. The antimagic field would suppress but not dispel it, and Ian would never know. The reason I don't believe that is, again, that if Tarquin tougth that a prisoner was worth extraordinary means to keep him in prison, he would execute him to avoid risks.
And the way things are phrased strongly hints that someone is betraying Ian. And possibly being betrayed by family and saved by Elan and Roy could lead to character development for him. But it could be a nice feint to imply a betrayal that don't exist.


In the end, of the 4 points of hake, 1, 3, and 4 can still be explained. What reallky confuses me is the second one.

[Shoelessgdowar]

the fact that she can smuggle food doesn't mean that she have to go in prison personally. Probably she pays some guards to deliver packages to her brother.

And I don't think Tarquin is involved with the ransom note. That was sent two years ago (plus what time it took to travel half the world) and Ian implies that he was sent to the arena to figth several times before the chief of the prison decided he was no fun. If Tarquin was involved with the ransom, he'd leave orders to not put him in the arena, to not endanger the potential ransom.
I admit the chance that they regularly take ransoms and say "sorry, the person you ransomed is dead, we're not giving your money back", but that would be dangerous, since many would want to check before giving the money.

The most likely scenario is that when Ian was imprisoned, some random bureaucrat made some research and found out that he had a daugther in the thieves' guild of Greysky, so he decided to send the ransom note.
After that, Ian was still sent to the arena, probably the rigth people were not informed, or the documents were lost.



I don't even think it is necessary for someone to betray Ian. All it would take would be putting on him some simple spell that aloows to track him. The antimagic field would suppress but not dispel it, and Ian would never know. The reason I don't believe that is, again, that if Tarquin tougth that a prisoner was worth extraordinary means to keep him in prison, he would execute him to avoid risks.
And the way things are phrased strongly hints that someone is betraying Ian. And possibly being betrayed by family and saved by Elan and Roy could lead to character development for him. But it could be a nice feint to imply a betrayal that don't exist.


In the end, of the 4 points of hake, 1, 3, and 4 can still be explained. What reallky confuses me is the second one.

Here is how I see it playing out... The Ransom Note was sent out by the previous empire, expecting it to be paid quickly or the hostage (Ian in this case) dies... the previous empire didn't have gladiator games... when the empire became the Empire of Blood the games began, and at that point all ransoms were already considered written off as not going to get paid.

Meanwhile we have Ian arrested... as a dangerous threat to the empire he'd be executed... Tarquin either doesn't know he exists, or he is part of Tarquin's plans. Either way, Ivy has to be the leak... as Ian's sister, she's is above reproach in his eyes and therefore he trusts her completely and would not keep anything secret from her, so she'd know about his every escape attempt and seem to be a integral part. Geoff has a goatee, which we know means he's a villain (or we're intentionally being lead to believe so), and it makes sense in a world where resurrection and magical healing can fix any injury, that a little discomfort and (perhaps even intentional) loss of limb is a minor inconvenience for a big payout later, if it means having a living set of eyes to make sure Ian never really escapes and all the real threats of rebellion go to the arena and fight to their deaths.

In fact, we only have Ian and Geoff's word on why they're no longer in arena fights... who says that Ivy via Tarquin didn't have them explicitly removed from the prisoners to be in the games?

And why wouldn't Tarquin want the expanded Global Thieves' Guild on retainer to rob from those he wants robbed and protect against robbery from thieves and rogues galore?