[D&D 3.5] Sorcerer and Wizard classes are done all wrong

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

It seems really strange how a sorcerer's spellcasting is less versatile than a wizard's. Since wizards have to learn each spell while sorcerers just make them up, wouldn't that give sorcerers a larger pool of options? It would be better if wizards got a small number of powerful spells while sorcerers could discharge weak ones nearly at will.

[true_shinken]

Sorcerers don't make up spells.

[Pie Guy]

It seems really strange how a sorcerer's spellcasting is less versatile than a wizard's. Since wizards have to learn each spell while sorcerers just make them up, wouldn't that give sorcerers a larger pool of options? It would be better if wizards got a small number of powerful spells while sorcerers could discharge weak ones nearly at will.

Well, no. Sorcerors have a few spells hard coded into their being (according to a lot of fluff), so they inherently know them. Wizards know about the basis of magic but cannot actually know the spells they are casting in the way sorcerors do.

And sorcerors get more lower level spell slots per day already.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

the thing that never made sense to me was that wizards got the next level of spells a level faster than sorcerers... even though they use magic via book learning and studying, which takes more time than just being born with magic in your blood.

[gbprime]

the thing that never made sense to me was that wizards got the next level of spells a level faster than sorcerers... even though they use magic via book learning and studying, which takes more time than just being born with magic in your blood.

Wizards read all the 'sploits and walkthroughs. :smallbiggrin:

[MeeposFire]

When they first started making the sorc they overestimated the power of spontaneous casting. Unfortunately they did not bother to change much of anything in regards to spellcasters when they did 3.5. Probably because of the fact that sorcs are still very strong (not as strong as wizards but still stronger than most everybody else) they did not feel like they needed to boost the class and we know how many people feel about any nerfs to their precious wizards:smallwink:.

[Psyren]

@ OP: Which is more likely - learning how to play multiple instruments fairly well, or being innately gifted at playing multiple instruments from birth?


Sorcerers don't make up spells.

Strictly speaking, they can...


the thing that never made sense to me was that wizards got the next level of spells a level faster than sorcerers... even though they use magic via book learning and studying, which takes more time than just being born with magic in your blood.

I presume this is based on it being easier to just read the next chapter of a book than yell at your genes to hurry up.

But I agree, the delayed spell progression is uncalled for. Sorcs already have the disadvantage with limited spells known; the fact that a focused specialist wizard can actually beat them in terms of ammunition AND have higher level spells is just a slap in the face.

[gbprime]

But I agree, the delayed spell progression is uncalled for. Sorcs already have the disadvantage with limited spells known; the fact that a focused specialist wizard can actually beat them in terms of ammunition AND have higher level spells is just a slap in the face.

Not to mention the skills issue. 2 skill points a level is fine for an INT caster, but when CHA is your main stat, its not so nice. Top off the fact that you dont' get most of the CHA skills as class skills anyway. Not that you'd have the points to use them...

Sorcerer... the face of the party! Right, Skip? :smallmad:

[true_shinken]

Strictly speaking, they can...

So can wizards. Your point?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Wizards read all the 'sploits and walkthroughs. :smallbiggrin:

LOL. so... wizards are the in-game optimizers and munchkins? :smallamused:

[LOTRfan]

I believe he was just correcting a slight error in your previous post, you said that they couldn't. I keep forgetting they can as well.

[true_shinken]

I believe he was just correcting a slight error in your previous post, you said that they couldn't. I keep forgetting they can as well.

No, I said they don't - as in, that's not their fluff (like the OP said it was, context and all).
I can eat lettuce every daym, but I don't.

[Vknight]

Well lets look at it this way

Sorcerer gets his power from genetics so he has to wait for his body to be willing to channel the magics to preform the spell.

A Wizard can understand his limits & begin working on greater tasks before hand because he can go around the limits the body imposes for safety.

Ironic is it not?

[Brendan]

It would be better if wizards got a small number of powerful spells while sorcerers could discharge weak ones nearly at will.

There is something pretty similar to this idea of yours. The warlock is a class that can cast a small selection of spells at will that are derived from a special (weaker) list. they're actually a pretty fun class.

[sonofzeal]

...while sorcerers could discharge weak ones nearly at will.
(SWORDSAGE'D!) And nobody's mentioned the Warlock? Replacing Sorc with Warlock might actually be a really interesting move.

Seriously though, thinking about it too hard is bad. That way leads madness. I mean, since it's innate shouldn't it be uncontrolled, with Sorcs learning totally random spells rather than the ones carefully chosen by the PC? Shouldn't we be rolling for it?



...now, I do agree Sorcs get kinda shafted. They're supposed to have more casts per day, but Specialist Wizards tend to snicker and Focused Specialists point and laugh. I think there's potential here for homebrew/houserule, but that's up to your group.

[Vknight]

Rolling for spells?
Great now I have 'Fluffy Bunny Summon' I wanted 'Firestorm of Hate & Pain'

[Psyren]

No, I said they don't - as in, that's not their fluff (like the OP said it was, context and all).
I can eat lettuce every daym, but I don't.

Mine does, therefore your statement is false. That was my point.

[Kylarra]

(SWORDSAGE'D!) And nobody's mentioned the Warlock? Replacing Sorc with Warlock might actually be a really interesting move.

Seriously though, thinking about it too hard is bad. That way leads madness. I mean, since it's innate shouldn't it be uncontrolled, with Sorcs learning totally random spells rather than the ones carefully chosen by the PC? Shouldn't we be rolling for it?



...now, I do agree Sorcs get kinda shafted. They're supposed to have more casts per day, but Specialist Wizards tend to snicker and Focused Specialists point and laugh. I think there's potential here for homebrew/houserule, but that's up to your group.They should also wild surge with every spell! Sorcerers are wildmages!

[Lord.Sorasen]

The part that really gets me is that sorcerers don't get metamagic bonus feats. Honestly, it fits the concept well.. I'd say better than it does wizards. Sorcerers have an innate understanding of magic, while wizards read the spells from books? It feels like the first should have a better control of their spells, does it not?

Honestly I feel like sorcerers should have the wizard features. Specialism as well: A sorcerer seems likely to be born with a better affinity to certain types of spells, and a natural inability to cast other sorts.

Ultimately, being able to prepare infinite spells is very much superior to being able to cast at will just a few.

Has anyone ever tried giving wizard class features to the sorcerer?

[Psyren]

Has anyone ever tried giving wizard class features to the sorcerer?

Yes, it's called a Psion :smallwink:

[Elric VIII]

Although I have never actually implemented it, I have been toying with the idea of allowing Sorcerers pay for metamagic with 2x its cost in lower level spell slots as a class feature. Or maybe just give them versatile spellcaster for free.

I personally like the psionics system for spontaneous casters as you have an upper limit to your total power expenditure for a given spell/power, but other than that the supernatural energy in your body is completely shapable. It seems to embody the concept of natural power better than "running out" of the ability to cast you most powerful spells, but retaining the ability to discharge more than enough power for one of them in the form of many smaller spells.

[stainboy]

Refluffing psion is my favorite fix for sorcerers. Psions basically use the spell point variant from Unearthed Arcana, so if you need a thematically appropriate spell that's not on the psion list, it's no big deal. You don't need to homebrew Animate Dead comma Psionic because UA already tells you how to do it.

I'm sure you could break the game by cherry-picking every wizard spell that's better than its psionic equivalent, or converting wizard spells to get out of buying Expanded Knowledge. That seems fixable though.

[Tharkie]

The part that really gets me is that sorcerers don't get metamagic bonus feats. Honestly, it fits the concept well.. I'd say better than it does wizards. Sorcerers have an innate understanding of magic, while wizards read the spells from books? It feels like the first should have a better control of their spells, does it not?

Wouldn't a solid understanding of the fundamentals of magic (i.e wizards) be extremely useful for altering spells?

[ffone]

Re: those arguing that for fluff reasons sorces should get spells sooner:

Note that the random starting ages for sorcerers is lower. Sorcerers are in the lowest age grouping (15 + 1d4 for humans), wizards are in the highest (15 + 2d6).

[Acanous]

The way Wizard was explained to me, is this:

Wizards went to college before level 1, Sorcerors took a trade. Now Sorcerors can adapt and react on the fly, so long as it's something on their list- because they're used to job hazards and sudden changes.

Wizards have a broader pool of knowledge to work with, but not as much direct experience. If they aren't prepared for it, they're caught in the rain.

This is also why Wizards get faster spell progression- they're quicker to pick up new ideas and try them, wheras the sorceror preffers to measure twice and cut once.

Both can get the job done, but society generally looks better upon the wizard.

[JellyPooga]

I've always thought that having two Arcane spellcasting classes that are so similar in the Core rules was somewhat redundant myself...functionally they're almost identical. At least the other Classes can claim a niche of their own (with, perhaps, the Paladin being out-Paladin'ed by the Cleric), even if it is "a little bit of X Class plus a little bit of Y Class".

[Combat Reflexes]

Honestly I feel like sorcerers should have the wizard features.
Has anyone ever tried giving wizard class features to the sorcerer?

Maybe give the Sorcerer bonus feats like the Wizard's, but only heritage feats (fey, fiendish, draconic). That ups the sorcerer's power as well as the fluff of the class.

[Acanous]

Also want to put out there that mechanically, the Wizard isn't as dungeon-friendly as a sorceror. You need down time when you level up to write your new spells into your book. Depending on the situation and your level, this could take you a while to get that much free time to scribe them into your book.
It also costs you gp per spell. No other class has a class feature that requires GP to be enabled. [some spells require gp to FUNCTION, but the wizard can't even have them on his list until he's paid for it]

Finally, if a wizard loses their spellbook, they become practically useless as soon as their spells memorized that day have been used up.
The "Summon Spellbook" spell can help with this, unless whoever took it put it into an antimagic field... but at the same time, no other class can be totally crippled by a single sleight of hand check.

A sorceror only requires a good night's rest in order for all of their new spells to be ready to go. Their spells can never be stolen, sundered, or set on fire. [well, not counting the ones that CAN, but that's a different sort entirely]

Wizards do get a bonus feat every five levels. Assuming they use the feats to counter the weakness of having to worry about spellbooks by taking Spell Mastery, they're still propably going to have fewer "Permanent" spells than a sorceror.

Depending on int bonus, that is.

[Thespianus]

Seriously though, thinking about it too hard is bad. That way leads madness. I mean, since it's innate shouldn't it be uncontrolled, with Sorcs learning totally random spells rather than the ones carefully chosen by the PC? Shouldn't we be rolling for it?
Ah, the good ole days of character generation. ;)

[Ernir]

The "Summon Spellbook" spell can help with this

Where is this spell?

I recently stole the spellbook from the character of one of my players, I think he might be interested. :smallbiggrin:

[Loki Eremes]

Seriously though, thinking about it too hard is bad. That way leads madness. I mean, since it's innate shouldn't it be uncontrolled, with Sorcs learning totally random spells rather than the ones carefully chosen by the PC? Shouldn't we be rolling for it?.

Well Thought.

Adding my opinion to this, "necessity generates the product" or in this case, the spell.

this said Sorcerers would need to gain their spell according to their needs.
Let say if they have tendencies to use blasting, then on the next lvl gain evocation and so. Or if the know they are going to dark places, develop darkvision spells and related ones.

Wizards having Spell Lvls faster & more assorted is understandable, as they are continually sinking in books and studing the arcane arts while sorcerers just make "Puff!" them xD


Well, this is the best thing i came up with for an explanation :smallbiggrin:

[ShinyRocks]

On the subject of sorcerers getting their spells at random, I always thought it would be fun to play, like, a good-aligned, kind, gentle sorcerer who keeps getting necromancy spells and really hates it.

'I feel ... stronger. I think I understand more spells. I can ... cast Finger of Death.' *weeps uncontrollably*

[JellyPooga]

Wizards having Spell Lvls faster & more assorted is understandable, as they are continually sinking in books and studing the arcane arts while sorcerers just make "Puff!" them xD

This only really applies if it's actually the case. Adventuring Wizards, I'd be willing to bet, probably spend more time in dungeons, orc lairs and ancient temples than they do down the library. Whilst adventuring, neither a Wizard or a Sorcerer really have any advantage over the other on the research front (unless, of course, the Wizard remembered to bring his Portable Library and his Lab-In-a-Bag!).

Down-time is a different matter, sure, but how often does anyone ever have more than a couple of nights, maybe a week, of downtime?

[Ermanti]

I always felt that the warlock was a better example of what a sorcerer was than the sorcerer. Of course, the lack of options available, coupled with a lackluster damage option, made for a much worse class.

What I mean is, wizards were supposed to learn magic, sorcerers were magic. A warlock comes off as more magical than the sorcerer, however. If only it was a good class....

As for scribing spells? Just use Secret Page, the description even says you can hide the text with a spell. Then you make about a million copies of your spellbook for essentially free.

Just my 2 cents.

[Acanous]

Thought it was in Unearthed Arcana, but nope. Might be in PHB2 or one of the Complete books. I know it's not in the Spell Compendium, which throws a lot of DMs for a loop when they take a spellbook from me >.>

[Runestar]

They should bring back the netherese arcanist class from 2e.

In a nutshell, imagine a spellcaster with a wizard's spells known, ability to spontaneously cast any spell he knows, and using the spell point system! :smallbiggrin:

[Loki Eremes]

This only really applies if it's actually the case. Adventuring Wizards, I'd be willing to bet, probably spend more time in dungeons, orc lairs and ancient temples than they do down the library. Whilst adventuring, neither a Wizard or a Sorcerer really have any advantage over the other on the research front (unless, of course, the Wizard remembered to bring his Portable Library and his Lab-In-a-Bag!).

Down-time is a different matter, sure, but how often does anyone ever have more than a couple of nights, maybe a week, of downtime?


you dont need an entire library for studing, and along your journey you have time during your trips when you are traveling or resting to do new research, not to mention that those dungeons are sometimes a great place for arcane discovery.

If it was me, Meh, i wouldnt study during a journey xD.
But its the life and the passion of the wizards... they'll find place for it (more even if it is a matter of life or death :3)

Being that said, is not that ilogical for a wiz to bring a bunch of books with them across a journey. Their knowledge is their weapon.

[JellyPooga]

Being that said, is not that ilogical for a wiz to bring a bunch of books with them across a journey. Their knowledge is their weapon.

It might be logical, but how many have their research notes/books on their character sheet? If it were me playing a Wizard (which I never do), I probably would have about 30lb. or more worth of "useless" books that he uses for his research (the weight increasing as he goes up in level!), to account for the fact that he gets his 2 spells 'free' when levelling up. I'd also make a point of changing those books periodically when I get the chance (after all, there's only so much you can learn from one book). I'm fairly sure that most gamers that play Wizards don't do this and a Wizard without research materials is probably worse at learning new spells than a Sorcerer, if only because he has less spells/day to practice with!

[Runestar]

I agree that sorcs kinda got the short end of the stick in terms of upgrades. Heck, wizards later get the ability to spontaneous cast spells, all sorcs got were junk like dragon heritage feats. :smallyuk:


Maybe give the Sorcerer bonus feats like the Wizard's, but only heritage feats (fey, fiendish, draconic). That ups the sorcerer's power as well as the fluff of the class.

Personally, I never liked the idea of tying a sorc's power so closely to their bloodlines. It's like every sorc I play must be descended from some dragon, fey or demon.

It should be alright from a mechanics POV though. Like 4e, maybe 3e sorcs can choose from metamagic, dragon, fey or outsider heritage, gaining a themed feat every few lvs?

[Czin]

(SWORDSAGE'D!) And nobody's mentioned the Warlock? Replacing Sorc with Warlock might actually be a really interesting move.

Seriously though, thinking about it too hard is bad. That way leads madness. I mean, since it's innate shouldn't it be uncontrolled, with Sorcs learning totally random spells rather than the ones carefully chosen by the PC? Shouldn't we be rolling for it?



...now, I do agree Sorcs get kinda shafted. They're supposed to have more casts per day, but Specialist Wizards tend to snicker and Focused Specialists point and laugh. I think there's potential here for homebrew/houserule, but that's up to your group.
To fix this, I just double a sorcerer's known spells per level and double their spells per day. Broken? Maybe...maybe...

[Czin]

They should bring back the netherese arcanist class from 2e.

In a nutshell, imagine a spellcaster with a wizard's spells known, ability to spontaneously cast any spell he knows, and using the spell point system! :smallbiggrin:

We call this class the Beholder mage, which would be horribly broken if humanoids could take it. Though I don't think they use the spell point system.

[J.Gellert]

They should bring back the netherese arcanist class from 2e.

In a nutshell, imagine a spellcaster with a wizard's spells known, ability to spontaneously cast any spell he knows, and using the spell point system! :smallbiggrin:

It's called a Hathran, and it gets circle magic on top of it, IIRC.

I'm pretty sure that the only reason you don't hear more of it on optimization boards is because of it's roleplaying prerequisites. It's otherwise a wizard who doesn't prepare spells.

[Runestar]

It's called a Hathran, and it gets circle magic on top of it, IIRC.

I'm pretty sure that the only reason you don't hear more of it on optimization boards is because of it's roleplaying prerequisites. It's otherwise a wizard who doesn't prepare spells.

It also only works while in their home country, Rashemi, which really limits the scope of adventures.

[Gnoman]

The best way to think about Wizards and Sorcerers is this:

A wizard is someone like Leo Slizard or Albert Einstein. They took a natural aptitude for mathematics and honed it through years of study until they were eventually able to collapse the foundations of theory and unlock some of the secrets of the universe.

A sorcerer is something like a high-functioning savant. They didn't study music, they just somehow are able to look at a piano and play it.

[gbprime]

To fix this, I just double a sorcerer's known spells per level and double their spells per day. Broken? Maybe...maybe...

Yeah, that's TOO much, IMO.

The fix we use locally is to give sorcerers skills and skill points like they were Experts (because they are, after all just exceptional people from any background who can innately wield magic), give them Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level, and give them a bonus feat at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20... not that anyone ever single classes a sorcerer that long.

Adding a Bloodline feat from Dragon Magazine Compendium helps too. Another spell known per spell level (even if it's a fixed choice, just choose the bloodline you want!) helps versatility greatly and even makes battle sorcerer or stalwart sorcerer into viable choices.

[J.Gellert]

It also only works while in their home country, Rashemi, which really limits the scope of adventures.

Even if you don't consider that a roleplaying prerequisite (and I'd make a point to say that "If it's not considered broken in Rashemen, why is it broken in, say, Amn?"), there is always the Acorn of Far Travel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a).

It's not even that bad, so most DMs will refrain from throwing books at you. Spontaneous casting is overrated, just like Fighter/Mages, Cleric/Mages, and casting in armor.

[valadil]

When they first started making the sorc they overestimated the power of spontaneous casting.

To be fair, when casters are played the way WotC expected, being spontaneous is a a huge advantage. They playtested as though all mages were blasters. For maximum versatility a wizard might use his level 5 spots to prep Cone of Cold, Empowered Fireball, and Empowered Lightning Bolt. That way he'll likely have a spell with the appropriate element for a foe with resistance or vulnerability. But against cold elementals he has only one good spell. The sorcerer could use all three slots towards Empowered Fireball.

Played like that, spontaneity is a bigger advantage than we give it credit.

[umbrapolaris]

They should bring back the netherese arcanist class from 2e.

In a nutshell, imagine a spellcaster with a wizard's spells known, ability to spontaneously cast any spell he knows, and using the spell point system! :smallbiggrin:

it didnt wait you :smallwink:

http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/vi...ist+base+class ^^

in Arcane Age: Netheril, they can reach lv45 with 500 Arcs (spell point) , each spell level (called Weave Depth) is equivalent to 1 SP (a lv9 spell cost 9 SP).

[grimbold]

sorcerors do not make up spells
they still have to focus to cast their spells
anyway it would make sense for wizards to have more spells because they have to learn them

[sreservoir]

They should bring back the netherese arcanist class from 2e.

In a nutshell, imagine a spellcaster with a wizard's spells known, ability to spontaneously cast any spell he knows, and using the spell point system! :smallbiggrin:

spell to power erudite with (comparatively) minor cheese?

[ExtravagantEvil]

I mean, since it's innate shouldn't it be uncontrolled, with Sorcs learning totally random spells rather than the ones carefully chosen by the PC? Shouldn't we be rolling for it?

I actually came up with a character a while back that would do just that, and the entire idea is still entertaining :smallamused:
and something better, since the wording in the PHB states that Sorcerers May choose from Sorcerer wizard list,
and others at DM's purview, you can randomly roll whether it's Cleric, Bardic, or Wizard spells :smalltongue:.

[Czin]

It's not even that bad, so most DMs will refrain from throwing books at you. Spontaneous casting is overrated, just like Fighter/Mages, Cleric/Mages, and casting in armor.

I think that it's hard to argue that the wizard class can compare to the beholder mage class (sorcerer like spells per day, wizard like spell learning with no spell book, spontaneity, tied to int, various other powers.) If it were useable by humanoids, it would be featured in more cheese builds than I can bother to imagine. But, you could always just homebrew up a playable beholderkin and let it take the beholder mage class and make the party wizard and sorcerer simultaneously fume in jealousy.

[Tvtyrant]

I just swap Sorcerer for Dragon Fire Adept these days; plays up the whole dragon blood thing and it is more unique.

[Analytica]

On the subject of sorcerers getting their spells at random, I always thought it would be fun to play, like, a good-aligned, kind, gentle sorcerer who keeps getting necromancy spells and really hates it.

'I feel ... stronger. I think I understand more spells. I can ... cast Finger of Death.' *weeps uncontrollably*

Totally. :smallbiggrin:

For the character, at least. The player should, I would say, select spells, but to the character, they represent whatever their inborn talents happen to be. The game should be fun for the player, not necessarily for the character...

[Loki Eremes]

It might be logical, but how many have their research notes/books on their character sheet? If it were me playing a Wizard (which I never do), I probably would have about 30lb. or more worth of "useless" books that he uses for his research (the weight increasing as he goes up in level!), to account for the fact that he gets his 2 spells 'free' when levelling up. I'd also make a point of changing those books periodically when I get the chance (after all, there's only so much you can learn from one book). I'm fairly sure that most gamers that play Wizards don't do this and a Wizard without research materials is probably worse at learning new spells than a Sorcerer, if only because he has less spells/day to practice with!


Are you serious? we are talking about IN game issues. You wont bring up a horse either. I was talking about how a D&D wizard would act to gain his knowledge and lvls in game, dont care what the player will do in real life.

------------------------------------

And yes, a Wizard without research material would suck compared to a sorcerer. Yet again, this is another reason why I see both classes balanced between each other.

If you steal a Wizard's spell book you render him useless until he can retrieve it, while you need to put a sorc into a magic field to make him magic-less.




The best way to think about Wizards and Sorcerers is this:

A wizard is someone like Leo Slizard or Albert Einstein. They took a natural aptitude for mathematics and honed it through years of study until they were eventually able to collapse the foundations of theory and unlock some of the secrets of the universe.

A sorcerer is something like a high-functioning savant. They didn't study music, they just somehow are able to look at a piano and play it.


Nice exemplification.
There is the genius (sorcerer) and there is the hard worker (wizard).




To be fair, when casters are played the way WotC expected, being spontaneous is a a huge advantage. They playtested as though all mages were blasters. For maximum versatility a wizard might use his level 5 spots to prep Cone of Cold, Empowered Fireball, and Empowered Lightning Bolt. That way he'll likely have a spell with the appropriate element for a foe with resistance or vulnerability. But against cold elementals he has only one good spell. The sorcerer could use all three slots towards Empowered Fireball.

Played like that, spontaneity is a bigger advantage than we give it credit.


Completly agree with this.
having to prepare a spell ahead of time like a wizard does is a great disadvantage than simply pick what to use when the situation shows up.

Lets the Sorcerer be more "spontaneus" and unpredictable.

[MeeposFire]

To be fair, when casters are played the way WotC expected, being spontaneous is a a huge advantage. They playtested as though all mages were blasters. For maximum versatility a wizard might use his level 5 spots to prep Cone of Cold, Empowered Fireball, and Empowered Lightning Bolt. That way he'll likely have a spell with the appropriate element for a foe with resistance or vulnerability. But against cold elementals he has only one good spell. The sorcerer could use all three slots towards Empowered Fireball.

Played like that, spontaneity is a bigger advantage than we give it credit.

Agreed they do love their blaster wizards hence why they made the warmage. Warmages are fun but not that powerful without shenanigans.

[randomhero00]

It seems really strange how a sorcerer's spellcasting is less versatile than a wizard's. Since wizards have to learn each spell while sorcerers just make them up, wouldn't that give sorcerers a larger pool of options? It would be better if wizards got a small number of powerful spells while sorcerers could discharge weak ones nearly at will.

Personally I agree. There's also a system out there that agrees with you. Its a little known one called Prism. Sorcerers there simply describe the spell, then the DM decides the DC based on known wizard type spells. Its a very fun and creative class.

Hmmm, I think I may homebrew a sorc class for DnD that lets it switch out spells at random, but with some kind of cost...

[sonofzeal]

Agreed they do love their blaster wizards hence why they made the warmage. Warmages are fun but not that powerful without shenanigans.
Double rainbow!

[Ilmryn]

And then there is the shi'ar, which prepares spells, but a lot qucker then a wizard. The shi'ar kind of is what the sorc should have been, although it has a different flavor.

What often isn't taken into account is that sources are easier to play than wizards. There is considerably less hassle and bookkeeping involved, making sorc a more newbie-friendly class. The wizard really is the most difficult caster to play since you have to keep track of both spells known and spells prepared. With almost all other casting classes you only have to keep track of one or the other.

[JellyPooga]

Are you serious? we are talking about IN game issues. You wont bring up a horse either. I was talking about how a D&D wizard would act to gain his knowledge and lvls in game, dont care what the player will do in real life.

I apologise for thinking that we were talking about a game that people play :smallannoyed:

I'm honestly somewhat astonished that you don't appear to realise the gaping contradiction in your statement there...a D&D Wizard is nothing but what his player (whether that be PC or NPC) plays him as. If the player doesn't account for his characters research, he didn't do any!

In a "real" D&D world, Wizards (of the stereotype we're talking about here) probably wouldn't go 'adventuring' and if they did, any research they were undertaking would likely be put on hold until he got back to a place conducive to it (like a library or his tower, etc). This, in turn, means that the average adventuring Wizard should learn only those spells that he finds on scrolls (or similar) whilst on his travels. As I pointed out, an adventuring Wizard that wanted to continue his research would require a hefty amount of books and materials, much of which may be delicate and/or volatile (to some degree), which just isn't practical to carry through the average "dungeon delve" scenario (hell, it's probably not even practical to transport it by wagon or cart on well-made roads!). The assumption that "they would find a way to do it" is, in my opinion, wrong. Magical research is not something that can be done "on the fly" and nor can it be done with makeshift tools (at least in my mind)...if a wizard doesn't have that time or those tools, he doesn't do research.

All this means that (in OOC terms) when a Wizard gains a level, unless he has been actively researching his craft, he should not be able to write his two "free" spells into his spellbook until he takes the time (with appropriate materials to hand) to do so.

[Loki Eremes]

I apologise for thinking that we were talking about a game that people play :smallannoyed:

I'm honestly somewhat astonished that you don't appear to realise the gaping contradiction in your statement there...a D&D Wizard is nothing but what his player (whether that be PC or NPC) plays him as. If the player doesn't account for his characters research, he didn't do any!



Ok....so if im a barbarian i need to develop anger managment problems... :smallannoyed:

[NekoJoker]

In a "real" D&D world, Wizards (of the stereotype we're talking about here) probably wouldn't go 'adventuring' and if they did, any research they were undertaking would likely be put on hold until he got back to a place conducive to it (like a library or his tower, etc). This, in turn, means that the average adventuring Wizard should learn only those spells that he finds on scrolls (or similar) whilst on his travels. As I pointed out, an adventuring Wizard that wanted to continue his research would require a hefty amount of books and materials, much of which may be delicate and/or volatile (to some degree), which just isn't practical to carry through the average "dungeon delve" scenario (hell, it's probably not even practical to transport it by wagon or cart on well-made roads!). The assumption that "they would find a way to do it" is, in my opinion, wrong. Magical research is not something that can be done "on the fly" and nor can it be done with makeshift tools (at least in my mind)...if a wizard doesn't have that time or those tools, he doesn't do research.

All this means that (in OOC terms) when a Wizard gains a level, unless he has been actively researching his craft, he should not be able to write his two "free" spells into his spellbook until he takes the time (with appropriate materials to hand) to do so.


Al right... This argument -as far as i could see- was about game mechanics, spontaneous versus prepared spell casting, each has different flavours and advantages, and what we were-I thought- discussing was how to make the both of them mor "balanced" in terms of power

But now I see that you are arguing with Eremes about carrying capacity?

Look, if a cleric would play the game like it would in "real life" it would not actually be adventuring, it might actually be helping his/her community

likewhise with bard. They may be chroniclers but i do not really think that an artist would jump at the call and leap into the maw of the dragon... instead i could see it as following a brave hero and singin odes to his/her great exploits...

heck almost every class has really one or two reasons to just stay home and get a job!

but that would not be D&D, that would not make a fun game to play. If you, he or anyone really wants to get into the tinny little bits of the supposed "real" aspects of the game, go ahead and make yourself at home. But when I play the game I want to go into intense and thrill filled adventures about Sword and Sorcery.

THe sorcerer just developes the spells as it comes in handy? yeah, that sounds like a reasonable explanation...

The wizard gets his two new spells when he levels up? he may have no time to study new spells, but he has been able to study and prepare a bunch of other spells already, maybe he can find a way to modify the way he casts the spell to make it a different thing.

Magic is not absolutely explained in any book I have read so far [if there is, please kindly show it to me, i'd be most grateful] so DM and players can come up with whatever reason they want to how their guy got his/her spells for the level.

The rules are open, and imperfect in fact they should work as a framework, nothing else.

Sorry for the huge wall of text and sorry if I offended anyone

[Boci]

In a "real" D&D world, Wizards (of the stereotype we're talking about here) probably wouldn't go 'adventuring' and if they did, any research they were undertaking would likely be put on hold until he got back to a place conducive to it (like a library or his tower, etc). This, in turn, means that the average adventuring Wizard should learn only those spells that he finds on scrolls (or similar) whilst on his travels. As I pointed out, an adventuring Wizard that wanted to continue his research would require a hefty amount of books and materials, much of which may be delicate and/or volatile (to some degree), which just isn't practical to carry through the average "dungeon delve" scenario (hell, it's probably not even practical to transport it by wagon or cart on well-made roads!). The assumption that "they would find a way to do it" is, in my opinion, wrong. Magical research is not something that can be done "on the fly" and nor can it be done with makeshift tools (at least in my mind)...if a wizard doesn't have that time or those tools, he doesn't do research.

Bag of holding?


All this means that (in OOC terms) when a Wizard gains a level, unless he has been actively researching his craft, he should not be able to write his two "free" spells into his spellbook until he takes the time (with appropriate materials to hand) to do so.

So repeatedly casting spells doesn't do anything to teach you new ones?

[umbrapolaris]

a Wizard when adventuring take small (magical?) spellbooks with only the spells he thinks may be useful in his quest, but many scrolls. The main one (and it copies, a careful wizard will NEVER forget to make a backup spellbook) is left well protected in his tower (this one is almost as important than a Lich phylactery).

if he found some new spells in his trip, he will scribe them in his main spellbook when back at home, or researching new spell there. it is silly to imagine a wizard researching new spells in the middle of a dungeon or in the tavern's room...

IMO, Sorcerer are like self-made compositors, they just discover spells like a musician suddenly discover a new melody.

[ZhanStrider]

(SWORDSAGE'D!) And nobody's mentioned the Warlock? Replacing Sorc with Warlock might actually be a really interesting move.

Seriously though, thinking about it too hard is bad. That way leads madness. I mean, since it's innate shouldn't it be uncontrolled, with Sorcs learning totally random spells rather than the ones carefully chosen by the PC? Shouldn't we be rolling for it?



...now, I do agree Sorcs get kinda shafted. They're supposed to have more casts per day, but Specialist Wizards tend to snicker and Focused Specialists point and laugh. I think there's potential here for homebrew/houserule, but that's up to your group.

I keep seeing "focused specialist wizard" but I can't find where it comes from. Can someone explain what it means and where it's from?

[JusticeZero]

Honestly, yes. The design of the Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, and Druid *are* pretty bad. They were designed to carry forward archetypes from the earliest forms of D&D, and were put into place with virtually no experience of the game in real, modern play. They furthermore have been affected by multiple paradigm shifts wherein certain marginal tactics once considered borderline or absurd have, after being seen in practice, become mainstream and completely redefined the balance of the class. This occasionally happens in games; I have seen classes in computer games go from being popularly viewed as horribly underpowered to popularly viewed as gamebreakingly overpowered simply by the development of a new tactic for their use on numerous occasions.

Seriously, this is why I cringe at the words "Core only"; every iteration of design has gotten better and better as a rule. "No core" would work better.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

The best way to think about Wizards and Sorcerers is this:

A wizard is someone like Leo Slizard or Albert Einstein. They took a natural aptitude for mathematics and honed it through years of study until they were eventually able to collapse the foundations of theory and unlock some of the secrets of the universe.

A sorcerer is something like a high-functioning savant. They didn't study music, they just somehow are able to look at a piano and play it.

:xykon: "Did...Did you just call me retarded?"

I tend to flip-flop between using a Psion to replicate the Sorcerer, or granting them Domains like the Cleric. A better idea would be to let them pick one School, and just say that they know All the spells.

The difference between Wizards and Sorcerers, in my opinion, is more like this:

A Wizard is like Odysseus. He's quick, clever, and uses trickery to get around and/or best his foes.

A Sorcerer is like Achilles. He's fast, strong and possesses an unnatural level of competence in his chosen field, regardless/in spite of any education he may/may not possess.