3.5 Cleric Tank

[Pard]

I initially rolled a fighter for our 3.5 campaign. I was asked to take the role of tank, and I accepted, not knowing how utterly terrible a 3.5 fighter is as a tank. After some research and talking among the rest of the group (which decided that if I wanted to stay I HAD to be the tank) I concluded that the cleric tank looked like a fun and viable options. Here is the breakdown of what is needed:

Dwarf w/ AMAZING stats (we rolled 6x 5d6 and subtracted the lowest roll) as followed; 19, 17, 17, 17, 14, 10.
I have to be Lawful-[Good or Neutral].
Core books (PHB1, DMG1, MM1) for the base, meaning we can only start w/ core book stuff, however after we start our characters can learn other stuff, if approved.

What I am thinking is (and this is totally up for changes):

Str: 19
Con: 17 +2
Dex: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 17
Cha: 17 -2

Never played a cleric before, so I am gonna need some help with this build!

[gbprime]

There's a lot of ways to build a cleric tank, and most of them involve Devotion feats or Divine Metamagic. or both.

But before we start, let's clarify what you're looking for. By "tank", do you mean "guy who soaks damage" or "guy who inflicts damage"? Obviously, he'll do both, but what does he need to focus on?

[Pard]

There's a lot of ways to build a cleric tank, and most of them involve Devotion feats or Divine Metamagic. or both.

But before we start, let's clarify what you're looking for. By "tank", do you mean "guy who soaks damage" or "guy who inflicts damage"? Obviously, he'll do both, but what does he need to focus on?

"Guy who soaks the damage" so the squishies can sit back in relative comfort.

[gbprime]

Well being limited to PHB and DMG restricts you quite a bit. I forgot to ask, what level are you starting at? 1 or 2 ?

[Pard]

Well being limited to PHB and DMG restricts you quite a bit. I forgot to ask, what level are you starting at? 1 or 2 ?

Level 1. The DM has said I can make requests for things outside of core for my first level, and by level 2 I can take things outside of core.

[gbprime]

well the way 3.5 works, you need to plan ahead. Way ahead. So find out if you'll be able to take things from Complete Divine, Complete Champion, PHB2, and Spell Compendium BEFORE you plan your future.

If you can't use those books, your best option to tank is DRUID, believe it or not. Animal Companion, Wildshape, and Augmented Summoning feat for a limitless supply of warm sacks of expendible HP. You and your companion will tear things apart with fang and claw, and you'll keep conjuring up more critters to chew on things and soak damage.

[Pard]

Yes that will all be fine. I may even be able to squeeze by with a thing or two from one of those books @ level 1, as the DM thinks I will be a total failure...

[MeeposFire]

Your toughest time will be at the lowest levels but even then you are not much worse than a fighter of your level (average of 1hp per level, some feats, a couple of points of BAB which can be regained later via magic, better saves, and probably better ac due to buffs).

Spells will outstrip feats and BAB easily if you really want to even in core (though druid is better in core only). Your DM must not have much experience with CoDzilla if he does not think a cleric can tank things.

[Runestar]

Here's a sample battle-cleric build.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Battle_Priest_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)

I don't think it is as optimised as the author makes it sound though.

[Pard]

OK thank you. I will take a look at that.

[Theodoxus]

I know it's outside core, but check if you can use the dwarf racial substitution for Races of Stone for Cleric. First level replaces Turn Undead with Smite Giants, so that might be bad if you're running an undead heavy campaign - but the real benny is the d10 HD instead of d8. At first level, that's 2 extra HP instead of the typical 1... 4th level grants +2 damage bonus when using warhammers (fluff is for Moradin only - that might be an issue...)

Anyway, everytime I play a dwarf cleric, I take the substitutions if allowed. Dwarf is really strong - if the DM really thinks you'll be weak, might as well go for the whole package.

[Keld Denar]

No no no no no no! Never give up Turn Undead. Ever. No, not even then. Its way too versatile, and way too good. At a glance, it looks terrible, but when you look closer, you realize how many hundreds of other abilities it powers. Its amazing! Simply off the top of my head is Law Devotion, which you could take at 3rd, which will give you +3 AC for 10 rounds as a swift action, which scales to +5 at 10th level and +7 at 15th level. The feat gives you 1/day use, but if you want more, you have to burn 3 TU attempts per use. Thats worth it!

See also: Divine Metamagic, Divine Spell Power, Divine Defiance, Divine Shield, Protection Devotion, Travel Devotion, and the entire Ordained Champion PrC!

[Myth]

Yes that will all be fine. I may even be able to squeeze by with a thing or two from one of those books @ level 1, as the DM thinks I will be a total failure...

Honestly where do you guys keep finding these ********s? The other thread has a guy taking 20 minutes per session doing animal tricks with his animal companion, annying the hell out of the other players. Yet another thread has a DM who sent 200 10th level Wizards at an 11th level character.

Your DM's job is to make sure everyone has fun and that you succeed, not that you will be a failure. Going in with that presumption makes him look like a brat who only wants to play to compensate for IRL deficiencies.

:smallmad:

How old are you guys anyway? Back on topic: Cleric will be fine. Even a plain ol' Cleric. Do read the Cleric's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) though. And ignore stuff on dndwiki it has too much homebrew in it for a new player.

[Pard]

Your DM's job is to make sure everyone has fun and that you succeed, not that you will be a failure. Going in with that presumption makes him look like a brat who only wants to play to compensate for IRL deficiencies.

He doesn't want me to fail, he just has never seen a cleric roll very well. I've never played with the guy before, but he is being very flexible.

Also which domains should I try to get? We have a custom pantheon, so I can pretty much ask for a deity with x and y domains and I am set. I figure strength (for enlarge) and...

[Cyrion]

I'd consider reorganizing your stat's slightly, though better optimizers than I may have different opinions:

Put your 19 in Wis and a 17 in Str. This will increase the DC of saves against your spells, improve your Will save, and grant you better bonus spells in the long run. Yes, you'll lose a point of BAB and damage per attack, but those are relatively easy to make up later.

Put the 14 in Dex and the 10 in Int. This will increase your AC and your Reflex save by 2. The AC bonus will be important at low levels and peter out as you go, but clerics aren't known for their reflex saves, and if you're standing front and center you're likely to be the target for a large number of saves of all kinds.


Also which domains should I try to get? We have a custom pantheon, so I can pretty much ask for a deity with x and y domains and I am set. I figure strength (for enlarge) and...

The cleric's handbook pointed out above gives a good breakdown of the strengths and weaknesses of various domains.

[Morbis Meh]

What domains are you taking? Have you considered taking flaws from Unearthed Arcana (take minor penalties in exchange for bonus feats). If you want to really tank it up then CoDzilla is the best way to go. If you really want to get cheezy take planning and spell domain. If you take Extend (only if you didn't take planning domain), Persist, DMM Persist you can have wraithstrike on all day and it allows you to make touch attacks instead of regular attacks. You will also have to take Extra Turning, combine this with worshiping pelor you can prestige into Radiant Servant (Complete Divine) and you get some nifty perks like martial weapon prof.

[Yuki Akuma]

See if you can get the Planning domain for free Extend Spell. Then take Persistant Spell and Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell.

Show your DM how awesome a tier 1 class can be.

[Pard]

I like Strength and Protection domains. I am gonna be allowed to use the domain feats from CC, so protection will gimme an AC bonus, which is why I am picking it.

[Yuki Akuma]

AC isn't very important, and clerics can wear heavy armour at no penalty anyway.

[lyko555]

if your going the dmm route you should see if you cant pick up 2 elemental domains. extra turnings = more spells to persist.
cause realy who needs night sticks when you have 33 turn attempts per day before lvl 10

[Keld Denar]

DMM doesn't work with elemental turnings. Check the errata. Turn UNDEAD only.

[Sr.medusa]

Earth domain. Lots of control, lots of tanking (ok, in the long run, but Iron Body is de tankiest spell ever) and extra turns (you can burn in Divine Spell Power).

[Yuki Akuma]

No you can't.

[MeeposFire]

Did I miss the change from core only?

Anyway if you can go outside of core there is a variant for turn undead in expedition to castle ravenloft that counts as turn undead for all purposes but deals damage rather than turning. It is more fun and easier to use in most cases and it still powers divine feats. Wish I could remember the name.

[Runestar]

No no no no no no! Never give up Turn Undead. Ever. No, not even then. Its way too versatile, and way too good. At a glance, it looks terrible, but when you look closer, you realize how many hundreds of other abilities it powers. Its amazing!

My dwarf cleric with 6cha had just 1 turn attempt/day. Swapping it out for smite giants variant (races of stone) was just too tempting (even though the feature itself wasn't that great). :smallsigh:

[AslanCross]

Did I miss the change from core only?

Anyway if you can go outside of core there is a variant for turn undead in expedition to castle ravenloft that counts as turn undead for all purposes but deals damage rather than turning. It is more fun and easier to use in most cases and it still powers divine feats. Wish I could remember the name.

Extra-core material is negotiable at level 1, and allowed carte blanche at Lv 2 onwards.

[Keld Denar]

My dwarf cleric with 6cha had just 1 turn attempt/day. Swapping it out for smite giants variant (races of stone) was just too tempting (even though the feature itself wasn't that great). :smallsigh:

You can always take Extra Turning. Heck, a Relequary Holy Symbol gives you +2 TU attempts per day (provided you don't burn the feat), which alone would allow you to use Law Devotion 2x per day. If you spent a feat on Extra Turning, you'd have 3/day. Law Devotion isn't Cha dependant, like Divine Might, you just have to have the TU attempts. Or, if Law Devotion isn't your cup o tea, Animal Devotion is almost as good, and Travel and Strength aren't bad either!

[abadguy]

Animal Companion, Wildshape, and Augmented Summoning feat for a limitless supply of warm sacks of expendible HP.

This line made my day :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Hammerhead]

No you can't.

Divine Spell Power is weird in that it doesn't explicitly demand a character to burn turn undead attempts.

It's silly to treat it as if it doesn't specify, but not much sillier than letting Versatile Spellcaster grant higher-level spells or other RAW abuses that seem commonplace on these boards.

[lyko555]

DMM doesn't work with elemental turnings. Check the errata. Turn UNDEAD only.

Where would this errata be?

[Keld Denar]

Top link (http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=official+D%26D+errata)...

[lyko555]

eesh glad ive never had a Dm thats used the erratas.

[dextercorvia]

Actually the turn/rebuke undead is in the text of the feat. It is the divine only spell thing and the having the metamagic feat that got changed.

[Gnome Alone]

Anyone else think these guys kinda sound like jerks? If he wants to stay, he HAS to be a tank, the DM's expecting him to fail? Jeez.

Anyway, don't forget about Knights - Cleric's are more versatile, and I bet it'd be satisfying to play a really awesome Cleric when the DM's not expecting it, but they're one of the few classes with the actually "tank" -like ability to gently encourage (with violence) the enemies to attack you.

[MeeposFire]

Yuck knights are pretty bad. Crusader is better in every way I think.

[Myth]

Knights are good because they can draw attacks to themselves. But Clerics make better tanks because they are a Tier 1 class. If you ignore them they will probably solo your group.

[Vizzerdrix]

Core only, the best combat buff I can recommend is this: Use a morning star sized for a large creature. You'll be taking a -2 to hit. With a Str score like yours that isn't a big concern. You'll be throwing around 2d6 damage. Later on get a masterwork one and you'll only be at a -1. No feats wasted on exotic weapons. No magic on it to get dispelled. Just a straight up -2 to hit to turn 1d8+3 into 2d6+4 (assuming you put the 17 into strength, and the 19 into wisdom).

[Myth]

Core only, the best combat buff I can recommend is this: Use a morning star sized for a large creature. You'll be taking a -2 to hit. With a Str score like yours that isn't a big concern. You'll be throwing around 2d6 damage. Later on get a masterwork one and you'll only be at a -1. No feats wasted on exotic weapons. No magic on it to get dispelled. Just a straight up -2 to hit to turn 1d8+3 into 2d6+4 (assuming you put the 17 into strength, and the 19 into wisdom).

That's very bad advice. See Power Attack for - to hit for + damage. And that can be regulated based on your need and the enemy's AC.

No magic on the weapon is just plain silly.

[Vizzerdrix]

That's very bad advice. See Power Attack for - to hit for + damage. And that can be regulated based on your need and the enemy's AC.
That costs a feat, and isn't so hot until you get the decent combat buffs and BAB. On the plus side, both ideas work well together in practice. :smallbiggrin:




No magic on the weapon is just plain silly.

Think low levels.

[Myth]

That costs a feat, and isn't so hot until you get the decent combat buffs and BAB. On the plus side, both ideas work well together in practice. :smallbiggrin:
Think low levels.

Since he'll be a Cleric he won't have much trouble with buffs. PA is always better. It costs a feat? It's not a wasted feat for someone who wants to hit things. It's actually the best feat to get if you plan to hit things. Sure he could be a Cloistered Cleric with Knowledge Devotion etc. etc. but a simple "buff now, PA next" routine will still outshine the fighters. And again, PA can be turned off, an oversized weapon cannot.

[dextercorvia]

Core only, the best combat buff I can recommend is this: Use a morning star sized for a large creature. You'll be taking a -2 to hit. With a Str score like yours that isn't a big concern. You'll be throwing around 2d6 damage. Later on get a masterwork one and you'll only be at a -1. No feats wasted on exotic weapons. No magic on it to get dispelled. Just a straight up -2 to hit to turn 1d8+3 into 2d6+4 (assuming you put the 17 into strength, and the 19 into wisdom).

He can use the ordinary Morning Star two handed, so he still gets the 1d8+4, Avg damage 8.5, using the large one, avg damage is 11, so you are talking about taking -2 to hit for +2.5 to damage.