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Awnetu
2011-01-27, 01:20 AM
Hello again all, in a little while one of our local DMs is gonna start a PvDM campaign, (Just kick in the door for the most part), hes given us stat spreads of 18, 16, 16, 14, 12, and 10.

We have an option, either A) We play non gestalt characters, or B) we play Gestalt characters who receive 50% less xp. (Though we still are getting the adjusted experience for being lower leveled if it would normally apply).

I'm wondering what the playgrounds thoughts on such an offer would be?

I'm a little doubtful its worth it personally, but I'm also not very experienced with Gestalt setups. (I'm betting it wouldn't be very good as a caster, but maybe as a martial type?)


BTW, the DM has stated the encounters could end up being 5 or more EL higher than the players.

Tl;DR, Would gestalt be worth it in a campaign at a -50% exp penalty when the dms trying to kill you in every fight?

Saint GoH
2011-01-27, 01:31 AM
You mean a DM does't try and kill you every fight?


That aside. Gestalt games are vastly different then regular games. You have double the class levels. With have a grain of foresight you can make a character with large hit die, 3 good saves, full BAB, and full casting. Encounters almost NEED to be EL 5 above the party just so you don't breeze through.

Really it depends on if you have a character in mind that requires a gestalt. One of my favorite characters is a psion gone mad and he rampages through towns slaughtering everything in his path, even in an AMF at one point. YOu literally cant do that without gestalting.

So do you want to have the greatest character alive in 3.5? Then again you could just play Exalted...

Bosh
2011-01-27, 02:17 AM
With only half XP it would start out with the gestalt having a BIG edge at lower levels (only a level or two behind, they wouldn't be three levels behind until the normals hit 8th). However, at the very highest levels the normals would eventually pull ahead (20th vs. 14th level). However unless you're sure that the campaign will last WELL into the double digits level-wise (doubtful) you're definitely better off to go Gestalt, just make sure that you pick a class combo that works well together.

TheOOB
2011-01-27, 02:21 AM
With those rules, let me get this out of the way: PLAY SINGLE CLASSED CHARACTERS.

Gestalt characters are no where near twice as powerful as single classed characters, they still get the same number of actions per round, and nothing they do is more powerful then anything a normal character can do. They are no more powerful then normal characters, just more versatile. In my experiance 3 gestalt characters is equal to about 4 non gestalt, or a full party of gestalt character is worth a party of normal characters 1 or 2 levels higher, depending on level of twinking(gestalt is heavily open to abuse.)

With those rules, however, you'll be several levels lower then you should be, and the problem will get worse over time, the self correcting nature of the xp system doesn't correct that much. A solo classed character would have much higher BAB, skill caps, a spell levels, making for a much more powerful character.

In any case, if you're DM is trying to kill you, and being clear about it, play nasty back. Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Artificer, play the overpowered classes, don't get any martial classes, they'll only hold you back.

EDIT: Doing a little math using relative experience rates, normal character would start leading a little early only in level(1 or 2 levels), and by 8th level the gestalt characters would be only level 5, and at the 3 level gap no amount of gestalt twinking can make up for the level gap.


Normal Gestalt
4th(6,000xp) 3rd(3,000xp)
5th(10,000xp) 3rd(5250xp - 112.5%)
5th(11,250xp) 4th(6000xp - 120%)
6th(15,000xp) 4th(8000xp - 106.7%)
6th(18,000xp 5th(10,00xp - 133.3%)
7th(21,000xp) 5th(11,875xp - 125%)
8th(28,000xp) 5th(16,006xp - 142.9%)

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-27, 02:47 AM
Eventually the XP will kick back in, but it will stabilize only after a long while. Full casters will almost surely be more powerful in the non-gestalt iterations, but a couple crazy gestalt-dependent builds might work out so long as they have said non-gestalt casters to carry them through the 'mid' levels (when the gestalt folk will still be low level).

I'm going to do a pointless little exercise estimating the level paths of a gestalt and a non-gestalt character assuming starting XP = 0, four party members, and the DM sends encounters at non-gestalt party level +1. I'll get back to you by editing this post.

Edit: Under my assumptions, the level gap is never* greater than 2 (and in fact remains around 2 for most of the time). This makes "gestalt" equivalent to LA 2, which IMO increases the power of everything except full casters.

*Edit 2: Correction, there is one encounter where there is a 3 level gap, when non-gestalt turns level 19.

Noneoyabizzness
2011-01-27, 07:33 AM
50% is too high a penalty for gestalt, an ecl2 maybe 3 would have been fine.

pretty much what was said previously, if you go gestalt with that penalty, go big or go home. go beguiler/ favored soul or wizard/archivist go mystic theurge and toss in a fun class SUCH AS fighter with armored mage for the wiz/archivist(or a warblade if you wanna go nuts with int synergy) or warlock/dfa with the favored soul/beguiler for nutty chr synergy

DeltaEmil
2011-01-27, 07:37 AM
Play gestalt if everybody else also plays gestalt. That way, you'll be able to play longer in the sweet spot, and have more fun thanks to a lot more reliable abilities.

If anybody doesn't take a gestalt, then let nobody take a gestalt.

2xMachina
2011-01-27, 07:45 AM
Do note...

As low lvls, beating high CR means a LOAD more XP. Might even be enough to counter the 50% penalty.

Myth
2011-01-27, 07:45 AM
50% is too high a penalty for gestalt, an ecl2 maybe 3 would have been fine.

pretty much what was said previously, if you go gestalt with that penalty, go big or go home. go beguiler/ favored soul or wizard/archivist go mystic theurge and toss in a fun class SUCH AS fighter with armored mage for the wiz/archivist(or a warblade if you wanna go nuts with int synergy) or warlock/dfa with the favored soul/beguiler for nutty chr synergy

Can't take dual progression classes/PrCs in Gestalt.

That being said, apart from things like Wizard/Factotum, Cloistered Cleric/Crusader+RKV or some such you'll be lagging behind. Do remember that XP is a river and that your DM won't be trying to TPK you guys, so he will still scale the encounters. You can go on XP farming trips as well, especially once greater logistical spells are available. Scry-and-die for some juicy XP targets (that won't fly with your typical "ALL ABOARD MY PLOT TRAIN" dms... How i loathe them...)

Noneoyabizzness
2011-01-27, 10:56 AM
actually it says you should not take hybrid prcs like mystic theurge doesn't say you can't. it does however say you can not take two prcs at the same class level.

now if instead of the +1 that a party of gestalts get according to the rules he gets a 50% exp penalty and essentially 2e swashbucklers luck, then yeah he might be able to get an option that at +1 he should not

Gnaeus
2011-01-27, 12:11 PM
Q1. How does DM treat RHD and LA?
Q2 What kind of character do you want to play?




EDIT: Doing a little math using relative experience rates, normal character would start leading a little early only in level(1 or 2 levels), and by 8th level the gestalt characters would be only level 5, and at the 3 level gap no amount of gestalt twinking can make up for the level gap.

That depends a lot on what kind of thing you are playing! Yes, an 8th level wizard will be a lot better than a wizard5//cleric 5. But Warblade 8 vs. Warblade 5//Goliath/Half Dragon/any synergistic PC class (Cleric, Barbarian, Factotum, Crusader, Rogue, etc)? Very debatable. Or Rogue (or other sneaky class) 8 vs. Swordsage5//Marrulurk Rogue 1? I'd definitely take the 'lurk. And if you were really cheesy with a very lenient DM, and you were talking about Warblade 8 v Warblade 5//Half Minotaur/Mineral Warrior/Feral/Lolth Touched or some similarly twisted monstrosity? Gestalt twinking can totally cover that level gap!

Prime32
2011-01-27, 01:59 PM
Have everyone go gestalt so the DM won't throw things that are the level of the normal guys in the group.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-27, 02:37 PM
Gestalt allows some intriguing combinations that wouldn't work otherwise and some fun back stories to explain it all. It is a more high powered variant, but I think it sounds like fun. I have not played it, but it looks neat.