Anyone got the Epic Vestiges?

[Eldan]

Title says it all, really. I'm trying to build an epic binder/warlock, but it seems wiazrds pulled the epic vestiges they published from their website, and it doesn't seem to be in google's cache anymore either.

Did anyone save that article?

[Czin]

Title says it all, really. I'm trying to build an epic binder/warlock, but it seems wiazrds pulled the epic vestiges they published from their website, and it doesn't seem to be in google's cache anymore either.

Did anyone save that article?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9589080&postcount=6
Here you go.

[Eldan]

Thank you very much.

[Czin]

Thank you very much.

You are very much welcome.

[Myth]

I can't get over the fact that they included Karsus as a non-Epic Vestige. He was a level 41 Arcanist, capable of casting 12th level spells. That's above the wailing souls of a couple-thousand biblical Egyptian boys.

[Eldan]

Primus is level 3. Your argument is invalid.

[Akal Saris]

Maybe Karsus is far more willing to re-experience life as a vestige than Egyptian-boy is, so he makes himself easier to bind.

[Myth]

Primus is level 3. Your argument is invalid.

The who now?

[LOTRfan]

Primus? Leader of the Modrons?

He was slain by Orcus while he was still the god Tenebrous, shortly before dying and reincarnating for the third time (I think?).

[peacenlove]

The who now?

Lawful neutral embodiment of mechanus. When Primus turns so do the cogs of Mechanus. (At least in Planescape lore IIRC)

[Myth]

I'm fuzzy on the lore of any but the most popular planes. Mechanus doesn't make any sense for me. An inevitable is sent to anyone who has exceeded the natural lifespan given to him.

Why do we have to exterminate Liches as if they were cockroaches then? :smallbiggrin:

Anyway where are the actual stats/fluff located? I'd give them a read. A level 3 God doesn't make sense in 3.5.

Edit: Reading Tenebrous's entry in TM, it has it pinned down pretty well. Scraps of divinity, not a real God. No apparent link to Mechanus.

[LOTRfan]

I'm sure as a god he is extremely powerful. As a vestige, however, he's 3rd. :smallfrown:

Anyways, fluff can be found in the old Planescape books and Dragon #354

[Myth]

Uh well that may be justified. Read my edit above, TM has it pretty well explained:

1. Orcus wants power.
2. Orcus gets power, enter Divine Orcus
3. Adventurers (tm) thwart Orcus
4. Orcus loses divinity
5. Divinity drifts away to the nothingness between the planes.

That's what the Binder binds. Not an actual deity.

[Scorpions__]

There, I edited the post to make it a bit more readable; bolded and italicized all the headings, hope that helps.





DM[F]R

[arguskos]

Uh well that may be justified. Read my edit above, TM has it pretty well explained:

1. Orcus wants power.
2. Orcus gets power, enter Divine Orcus
3. Adventurers (tm) thwart Orcus
4. Orcus loses divinity
5. Divinity drifts away to the nothingness between the planes.

That's what the Binder binds. Not an actual deity.
That is a fine understanding of Tenebrous, but not PRIMUS, which is what they were discussing.

Primus was the creator-god of the Modrons, a race that D&D 3.5 swept under the carpet and kinda just ignores. All you really need to know is that Primus was a bona-fide god, and when killed, became a level 3 vestige. The argument that Karsus, a mortal (very powerful, but still mortal) should be higher then a level 4 vestige holds no water when you have true divinities getting busted down to a level 3 vestige.

In short, the power of the being in life has no bearing on the power of a vestige, so any of these arguments make no sense. :smalltongue:

[Myth]

That is a fine understanding of Tenebrous, but not PRIMUS, which is what they were discussing.

Primus was the creator-god of the Modrons, a race that D&D 3.5 swept under the carpet and kinda just ignores. All you really need to know is that Primus was a bona-fide god, and when killed, became a level 3 vestige. The argument that Karsus, a mortal (very powerful, but still mortal) should be higher then a level 4 vestige holds no water when you have true divinities getting busted down to a level 3 vestige.

In short, the power of the being in life has no bearing on the power of a vestige, so any of these arguments make no sense. :smalltongue:

But why can't I actually find Primus in the TM entry for Binders?

[Fishy]

In short, the power of the being in life has no bearing on the power of a vestige, so any of these arguments make no sense. :smalltongue:

They're vestiges. They're not supposed to make sense. :smalltongue:

[peacenlove]

But why can't I actually find Primus in the TM entry for Binders?

He is a bonus vestige in dragon magazine.

[Eldan]

I found this Scribd (http://www.scribd.com/doc/38835505/Tome-of-Magic-Additional-Vestige-Collection-v2-1-2) collection of Vestiges when looking for the epic ones, it contains Primus.

And yes, what I meant was: if a true god, the embodiment of Law, and the ruler creator and greatest mind of the most lawful and knowledgeable race, the Modrons, is only level 3, then clearly, there's no real connection between living power and vestige power.