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Hawkflight
2011-01-27, 12:50 PM
Hello, GitP community,

I'm looking for advice on building a cross-class Rogue / Caster. I enjoy using Wizard for the casting class, but in one campaign I'm looking at there's a rule that says "no tier 1 classes". I'm looking to be the party's skillmonkey / face(s) / scout / sneak / batman. So my question is twofold:

1) How should I build a Rogue / Sorcerer? What feats should I take? Would Scout be a better choice than Rogue? I really want to be a Tibbit, but if there's a race that would work infinitely better I'm open to hearing it. (I hear Illumian and Changeling are pretty good, but I have no idea what those classes are.) I will be starting at level 6, but advice for levels 1-20 would be very helpful, both for future reference and so I have an idea where to go with this character in the future.

2) Same as 1, but Wizard over Sorcerer. This time I will be starting at level 3, and again advice for further progression would be helpful (levels 1-20).

EDIT:

I have begun work on a character. I could use any advice. No Tier-1 classes, thus Sorcerer over Wizard. I'm particularly feeling the lack of spells known.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=271318

Keld Denar
2011-01-27, 01:07 PM
Wizard is generally better than Sorcerer simply due to the Int synergy. You want more skill points, so having Int as your casting stat (and thus highest stat which you are most likely to increase) will further that goal.

Typical builds are:

Rogue1/Wizard4/UnseenSeer10/ArcaneTrickster5
or
Spellthief1/Wizard4/UnseenSeer10/ArcaneTrickster5

Spellthief is in CAdv, Unseen Seer is in CMage, and Arcane Trickster is in the DMG. The Spellthief version typically uses Master Spellthief from Complete Scoundrel for bonus synergy between the two classes. There are lots of variations of this, such as Spellwarped Snipers (CScoundrel), or Archmage (DMG) dips, but those are pretty standard chassis.

As for race, Illumian is a VERY good race. Lots of neat stuff to do there. Otherwise, Human is actually great for these builds, as you can NEVER have too many feats.

Questions?

Devmaar
2011-01-27, 01:40 PM
Have you considered a Beguiler?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-27, 01:42 PM
They've already made a base class for what you want, it's called Beguiler in PH2.

Hawkflight
2011-01-27, 01:51 PM
Okay, sorry, but I don't have all my D&D books handy. They're presently on an external hard drive while I get my computer repaired.


Wizard is generally better than Sorcerer simply due to the Int synergy. You want more skill points, so having Int as your casting stat (and thus highest stat which you are most likely to increase) will further that goal.

Typical builds are:

Rogue1/Wizard4/UnseenSeer10/ArcaneTrickster5
or
Spellthief1/Wizard4/UnseenSeer10/ArcaneTrickster5

Spellthief is in CAdv, Unseen Seer is in CMage, and Arcane Trickster is in the DMG. The Spellthief version typically uses Master Spellthief from Complete Scoundrel for bonus synergy between the two classes. There are lots of variations of this, such as Spellwarped Snipers (CScoundrel), or Archmage (DMG) dips, but those are pretty standard chassis.

As for race, Illumian is a VERY good race. Lots of neat stuff to do there. Otherwise, Human is actually great for these builds, as you can NEVER have too many feats.

Questions?

Yes.

1) What's Unseen Seer?
2) What's Arcane Trickster?
3) What exactly is an Illumian? (Fluff-wise as well as mechanical.)
4) What advice do you have for a campaign where Tier 1 classes are banned?


Have you considered a Beguiler?


They've already made a base class for what you want, it's called Beguiler in PH2.

What's a Beguiler?

Kalaska'Agathas
2011-01-27, 01:55 PM
What's a Beguiler?

It's a focused caster, which casts from a fixed list, consisting primarily of Illusions and Enchantments (if I remember correctly). It gets 6+Int skills per level, a bunch of useful class features, and is generally pretty awesome. You can cast in light armor, be a skill monkey, and still get ninth level spells.

Keld Denar
2011-01-27, 01:59 PM
Google is your friend...

Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster are both PrCs that blend rogue and caster abilities together. USS is generally percieved as stronger because it has neat class features. AT is in the SRD, if you want to see it.

Illumians are...kinda wierd. They have sigil words, generally made up of 2 sylables, each corresponding to a given ability score. They are great for multiclass casters, as they have a built in ability that works kinda like Practiced Spellcaster. For some concepts, they are REALLY good, for others, they are ok.

If you can't use T1, Sorcerer is ok. As I said, Wizard is better purely because of Int synergy, but if you have decent stats, that matters less.

Beguiler is a base class in the PHBII. Its a high skill point caster that focuses on mostly illusions and enchantments, with a smattering of other spells. Not really any damage focus like a sneak attack caster (the examples above) would have, they focus on surprise disabling attacks. Great class, very playable from 1-20 straight.

Greenish
2011-01-27, 02:04 PM
1) What's Unseen Seer?
2) What's Arcane Trickster?
3) What exactly is an Illumian? (Fluff-wise as well as mechanical.)
4) What advice do you have for a campaign where Tier 1 classes are banned?
What's a Beguiler?1) A skillmonkey/arcane caster PrC from C.Mage. Good skills, gets to pick divination spells from any list.
2) The rogue/arcane PrC from DMG and SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm).
3) Human with weird runes circling your head.
4) Play something fun!
5) A "specialist sorcerer" style class. Trapfinding & 6+int skills from rogue-ish list, plus full spontaneous int-based casting from a list with mostly illusion and enchantment spells. Oh, and you know your whole list.

gorfnab
2011-01-27, 03:29 PM
Here are some handbooks that may be of use to you in making your character.
Beguiler Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.20)
Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240.0)

For a sneak attacking Beguiler you could go with
Rogue 1/ Beguiler 5/ Unseen Seer 2/ Beguiler 2 (for Advanced Learning)/ Unseen Seer 8/ Arcane Trickster 2
or
Whisper Gnome Rogue 1/ Beguiler 5/ Unseen Seer 2/ Beguiler 2/ Arcane Trickster 10
or
Whisper Gnome Rogue 1/ Beguiler 5/ Unseen Seer 2/ Beguiler 2/ Shadowcraft Mage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638.0)5/ Shadowcrafter 5

Hawkflight
2011-01-28, 02:59 PM
Okay. I have a couple of different builds I'm looking at, for my 6th-level no-tier-1 campaign.

Rogue OR Spellthief 1 --> Factotum 1 --> Sorcerer 4 --> Unseen Seer 2 --> Something else

OR

Rogue OR Spellthief 2 --> Sorcerer 4 --> Unseen Seer 2 --> Something else

OR

Factotum 2 --> Sorcerer 4 --> Factotum 1 --> Unseen Seer 2 --> Something else

OR

Any of the above, replacing Unseen Seer with Chameleon

OR

Any of the above with a different prestige class other than Unseen Seer.

I am decidedly not going further than 2 levels in Unseen Seer, because that CL penalty to half my schools really hurts.

Does anybody have any suggestions? It seems the more I explore the issue, the more confusing it gets.

yugi24862
2011-01-28, 03:12 PM
Just a note, you can take practised spellcaster to get rid of the CL decrease while keeping the CL increase.

And why factotum and rogue?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-28, 03:47 PM
Take Practiced Spellcaster and your caster level for nondivinations won't be any lower than normal. Go Rogue or Spellthief 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Unseen Seer 5/ Arcane Trickster 10, and you'll need Able Learner to make it work. I'd get Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot and focus on ranged attack spells like rays and orbs.

Keld Denar
2011-01-28, 04:08 PM
Your ideas are ok, but tend to lose more caster levels than is recommended. Spells, in general, tend to give you more options than not having spells. The more caster levels you have, the more spells/day you have, and the higher level spells you have access to. I wouldn't lose more than one level on a non-caster entry.

Rogue1/Sorc4/UnseenSeer10/AT5 would be a fantastic build. You could go Rogue1/Sorc4/USS5/AT10 like BF recommended, but I think USS is a better class than AT. Sure, AT gets 1-2 more d6 of sneak attack, but USS gets more advanced learnings, which translates into more utility. You can get enough SA just from USS and proper application of Hunter's Eye that you should be fine on the damage department.

Hawkflight
2011-01-29, 03:07 AM
I have begun work on a character. I could use any advice.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=271318

Keld Denar
2011-01-29, 05:04 AM
Looks good. What spells known are you planning? Remember to take a 2nd level [Acid] spell to power Acid Splatter!

Hawkflight
2011-01-29, 12:10 PM
Actually, I was hoping for some advice on that. I only have one 2nd level spell free, so that limits my options a bit. I was thinking of some utility spells, and ones that boost certain skill checks.

EDIT: I could also use some advice on items/equipment.

Keld Denar
2011-01-29, 03:29 PM
Well, if you want to use Acid Splatter at all, that pretty much locks you in with Acid Arrow as your 2nd level spell. You can also sneak attack with Acid Arrow, if you have your foes flat-footed. For 1st levels, Grease is a winner. Its a good disable, and also foes that are stuck on a greased square are generally flat-footed unless they have 5+ ranks in Balance. That allows you to SA them. Color Spray is still ok at level 5, so thats another one that might be worthwhile. Maybe Swift Invisibility? That would get you SA damage on demand, which is worth while.

For gear at that level, there's not a whole lot you can really get. I'd suggest Anklets of Translocation (MIC) as an allpurpose defensive item, and get a +1 Vest of Resistance. If you have the jink, a +2 Cloak of Cha couldn't go unmissed, and maybe a Lesser MM Rod of Extend Spell.

Greenish
2011-01-29, 03:47 PM
Especially if you're going Spellwarp Sniper later, Wings of Flurry is an excellent spell.

Hawkflight
2011-01-29, 05:24 PM
Updated with some items and spells, more to be chosen later.