View Full Version : Gestalt Fix

2011-01-27, 05:55 PM
I was wondering what people thought of the Gestalt fix found Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=9336k4ggkgb7lrrdc460ua1tc1&topic=1002.msg24720#msg24720)?

Basically to level the playing field between Tier 1 and 2, Tier 3, Tier 4 and 5 the following was done:

Tier 1 and 2: Nothing, they are powerful as written
Tier 3: Gestalt with Tier 6, basically Aristocrat or Warrior (ignoring CW Samurai as that was never written...)
Tier 4 and 5: Gestalt with Tier 4 or 5...

Such combinations crop up along the Tier 4 and 5 as:
Hexblade // Paladin of Tyranny (2xCha to saves, Lots of Debuffing)
Ninja // Rogue (lots of sneak attack damage and a invisibility)
X // Warlock (X but with Ironman abilities)
X // Fighter (X but with dungeon crasher, or more feats for those feat heavy build)

Tier 3 gets either D8 HD, Full base attack bonus (Warrior) or 3/4 BAB, 4+ skill points and more social skills (aristocrat)...

I was wondering what people thought of the Gestalt Fix and if they know any cool Tier 4 and 5 combos when you can gestalt with Tier 4 or 5...

2011-01-31, 06:41 PM

I was wondering what people thought of the Gestalt Fix... I guess the lack of "Teh H4xor Br0k3n" means it balances* things.

*Balance: Verb, offset or compare the value of (one thing) with another. Balance...

Example Sentence: Wow, this gestalt fix offsets the power of Tier 1 classes by increasing the value of lower tiered classes by allowing them to gestalt thus gain the ability to take feats that would not otherwise be an option, and create builds that would otherwise be too high of an ECl to be effective.

2011-01-31, 06:51 PM
This fix would seem to give a little more flexibility to Tier 4-5 classes. Most tier 3 classes I can think of already have close to the benefits described, so I'm having trouble envisioning the amount of assistance this gives. Certainly worth a shot.

Halna LeGavilk
2011-01-31, 06:55 PM
Well, it wouldn't help at all, because gestalt doesn't need fixed. Gestalt is meant to be high powered. Further more, as an anything based on Tiers, that automatically means that its just the person's opinion. I think Fighter should be high Tier 4, low Tier 3, because you can do awesome things with it.

2011-01-31, 07:11 PM
Well, it wouldn't help at all, because gestalt doesn't need fixed. Gestalt is meant to be high powered. Further more, as an anything based on Tiers, that automatically means that its just the person's opinion. I think Fighter should be high Tier 4, low Tier 3, because you can do awesome things with it.

Eh, not sure wether you understood it, but its a fix to the tier system, not gestalt in general.

It balances Tiers by giving lower Tiers the ability to gestalt.
Tier 3 with Tier 6
Tier 4 with Tier 5

This is to achieve a party that, even with having Tier 1 characters and Tier 4 characters is still balanced by allowing the Tier 4 charcaters to gestalt while the Tier 1 characters stay mono-class.

2011-01-31, 07:20 PM
It doesn't do anything to help the tier system for the most part. While it does add to tier 4/5 slightly, anything higher is pretty much untouched and doesn't even come close to touching the huge gap between 2 and 3. Some 4s may bump up to 3 with the right synergy on the other side of gestalt, but other than that, not much changes.

Halna LeGavilk
2011-01-31, 07:21 PM
Well, number one, I didn't actually read it, heh. Probably should've. Two, I don't actually think anything needs fixing. I've never not had a party where everyone contributes, at least something.

2011-01-31, 07:34 PM
Don't forget about Expert, 6 skill points/level and any ten class skills you want is way better than what Aristocrat gives. Adept adds some extremely useful buffs and fixes, so it's often the best choice for most combat-oriented classes.

Warrior is probably the best choice for an otherwise attack-roll-based class which doesn't get full BAB: Bard, Swordsage, Rogue, Psychic Warrior, Scout, Factotum, Marshal, Spellthief, and Warlock can all greatly benefit from the BAB, Fort save, d8 HD, and weapon and armor proficiencies.

Adept is amazing for anything that gets a full BAB, and it adds some great utility to an otherwise party-friendly character. It tends to inflict MAD on a character when used in partial gestalt, but Wis 13 or 14 should be enough to make it worth taking since you can always get a cheap +2 item later on. Fighter BAB classes can get Mirror Image, See Invisibility, Cures, Polymorph, Stoneskin, Heal, and True Seeing, thus turning them into self-sufficient and capable characters in the higher levels. Party-friendly and utility classes like Marshal, Bard, Factotum, Rogue, Spellthief, and Scout can get utility spells, Cures, status fixes like Remove Curse/Disease and Neutralize Poison, even Restoration and Raise Dead. You can even get Improved Familiar (DMG or CW version) for a capable companion (Imp, Pseudodragon) or a combat pet or mount (Hippogryph, Howler).

Expert is good for adding skill points, a customized class skill list, and a good Will save to a character who otherwise only gets two skill points/level, or a character who wouldn't benefit from Warrior when you just don't want to use Adept.

On the Tier 5/6 options, Adept is probably still going to be your best choice. Otherwise, any combination of a full BAB class and a partial BAB class will usually come up with something far better than without partial gestalt. Fighter + Monk and Fighter + Soulknife makes those classes capable of dealing some decent damage, for example.

I like the partial gestalt fix, I think it's a very elegant and easy to understand solution to the power gap. Characters of varying tiers will have widely varying capabilities, and this helps to put them on somewhat even ground.

term1nally s1ck
2011-01-31, 08:08 PM
It's nice, and in a medium-opt game does a lot to eliminate accidental overshadowing.

However, when people are making an effort to optimise, the tiers aren't shakable by adding more tier 4.

2011-01-31, 10:05 PM
Tier 3 is with Tier 6... Expert is Tier 5, and Adept is Tier 4... Aristocrat is Tier 6 and gives the most skill points for that Tier.

2011-01-31, 10:25 PM
If you cut out the top 2 tiers and use this partial gestalt, then it'd be interesting.

2011-01-31, 10:34 PM
If you allow Tier 3/4 to use Adept, Expert, Commoner, or Warrior as mentioned in the linked post, then I think this can work very well.

A few of the Tier 3 classes would greatly benefit from the Warrior for full BAB and a good Fort save (Swordsage and Bard come to mind), leveling up in Adept would help many classes with the addition of Wisdom based spellcasting, a familiar and some nice class skills, any classes that wouldn't benefit greatly from the first two would do well with the additional Skill points from the Expert.

I don't think that a Tier3 Class//NPC Class character would compare to a Tier 1 character, but I think that the first character would be much better off and better able to contribute in the party that they would without the gestalt.


I'd consider DMing a game where Tier 2 and lower classes get scaling gestalt options. The gestalt game i'm running right now takes up too much time for that though.

2011-01-31, 10:35 PM
You mean only play with Tier 3, 4, 5 and 6 with the partial gestalt?

Also it is not Tier 3 and NPC classes...

Expert and Adept are in the Tier 4 and 5.