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Aemoh87
2011-01-27, 06:25 PM
So I am building a campaign at the moment and I was wondering what I could possibly do to fix the melee caster divide. Well there is no real solution (cept druid but just because it's good at both doesn't make it a fix) but I did come up with something that helps. I gave every class except the full casting ones martial manuevers! Even bard, even though his is scaled back to the normal 1 initiator level per 2 character levels. And the only people who don't have this are Wizard, Sorc, Cleric, Artificer, and Druid. I also house rule no maneuvers while wild shaped to hose variant rangers a bit. I think it will pan out great, plus it makes fighter (who has access to all but devoted spirit) a fun class again! Everyone Rejoice!

Lockjaw
2011-01-27, 08:17 PM
I had thought about the same thing recently (got the ToB for Christmas). Let me know how it works.

Hammerhead
2011-01-27, 10:09 PM
Are you using homebrewed maneuvers or is every character going to be drawing from the same pool? If every character is drawing 2-3 maneuvers/level from the same handful of schools, I envision a lot more characters looking very very similar to each other.

This sounds like a bit of a pain in terms of paperwork, to be honest. If I'm playing a Favored Soul, Incarnate or Bard, I've already got one or more pools of abilities to track. IMO, it'd be better to improve classes along lines of mechanical systems that have already been established: for instance, improving the Paladin, Spellthief, Hexblade, Ranger and whatever other half-casters I'm forgetting with improved casting [as with the Mystic Ranger] could push them toward the ToB-Bard-Totemist power strata without adding as much extraneous paperwork and without creating as much redundancy between player abilities.

For classes without involved casting/essentia/psionics mechanisms already involved like the Samurai, Fighter, Knight, Dragon Shaman, Marshal or their ilk, it sounds like a good idea, but I'd still recommend expanding maneuver options a bit.

FMArthur
2011-01-27, 10:12 PM
Maneuvers will add more to the core melee classes than their own class abilities. Really you're just adding stuff onto the Martial Adepts, which don't really need any buffs. Just let them replace the old classes.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-27, 10:17 PM
My suggestion:

* Replace Fighter with Warblade
* Replace Monk with Unarmed Swordsage
* Replace Paladin with Crusader
* Remove Ranger casting, replace with gimped maneuver/stance progression
* Give Barbarian gimped maneuver/stance progression

* Replace Wiz/Sorc with one of:
- Beguiler
- Dread Necromancer
- Warmage
- Warlock
- Dragonfire Adept

* Replace Druid with PhB II Variant

* Replace Cleric with one of:
- Favored Soul
- Healer

Done.

MeeposFire
2011-01-27, 11:14 PM
Giving other classes maneuvers will help them get to a respectable level (though that does hurt the ToB classes a bit) but it still will not make them as powerful as full casters. Nothing you do (most likely) will change that unless you nerf the casters which tends to be unpopular in 3.5. All you do is change the balance between classes and the creatures they fight.

Aemoh87
2011-01-28, 12:58 AM
Every character is drawing from the styles printed. And each only has access to a few styles. Such as fighter has access to all but devoted spirit. Paladin has the same as crusader. Rogue has shadow and tiger claw. ect ect. I don't have the actual list I am using in front of my face but most have access to 3 styles except for fighter.

As for nerfing casters, I agree it's an aweful idea. But aren't casters supposed to be stronger? I have always believed that, so it is a necessary evil. The party wizard is scary, but so are the DM's wizards :) sounds like balance to me.
(I used wizard in that reference not druid because I think druids are boring)

faceroll
2011-01-28, 01:53 AM
There are some spells that either shouldn't be, or should be higher level, IMO. The biggest way to limit casters' power is to limit the spells they have available. The next is to curtail metamagic mitigation.

Aemoh87
2011-01-28, 02:02 AM
Well the idea isn't to limit casters it's to enhance the classes that need a boost so they are more playable. If some one wants to play a monk they are gonna do it no matter how much better swordsage is, so why not fix monk?

Kobold-Bard
2011-01-28, 02:05 AM
This system helps with the power gap but don't you think it's a little boring? Everyone either casts spell or uses maneuvers?

AslanCross
2011-01-28, 02:10 AM
My suggestion:

* Replace Fighter with Warblade
* Replace Monk with Unarmed Swordsage
* Replace Paladin with Crusader
* Remove Ranger casting, replace with gimped maneuver/stance progression
* Give Barbarian gimped maneuver/stance progression



Honestly, I find this unnecessary. ToB multiclasses better than any optional ruleset. It stacks great with the core classes (okay, Paladin not so much).

Aemoh87
2011-01-28, 02:14 AM
Well they have that option but people still wind up picking certain classes for reasons other because one is better than the other, if you use that as a point then ToB is pointless and every book should be titled "Another Look at Druid: This time with more pictures"

Aemoh87
2011-01-28, 02:15 AM
Plus have you ever played a high level fighter? Attacking is boring, but ToB makes every classes much more interesting.

AslanCross
2011-01-28, 02:21 AM
You might want to edit your posts instead of double-posting.

faceroll
2011-01-28, 02:22 AM
Well the idea isn't to limit casters it's to enhance the classes that need a boost so they are more playable. If some one wants to play a monk they are gonna do it no matter how much better swordsage is, so why not fix monk?

Because things like celerity, shapechange, entangle, solid fog, grease, and shivering touch shouldn't be in the game.

edit
Neither should planar binding spells, planar ally spells, gate, astral projection, rope trick, freedom of movement effects, or mindblank.

Aemoh87
2011-01-28, 02:28 AM
Some spells do need to be banned. That is just the nature of any game, mistakes are made. Venomfire should be on that list as well. I also usually ban 9th level scrolls period. But this isn't a issue of broken or not, it's to enhance the classes that are in the lower tiers and to make them more fun.

Kobold-Bard
2011-01-28, 02:37 AM
Some spells do need to be banned. That is just the nature of any game, mistakes are made. Venomfire should be on that list as well. I also usually ban 9th level scrolls period. But this isn't a issue of broken or not, it's to enhance the classes that are in the lower tiers and to make them more fun.

Ban "Tier 1".

There are "Tier 3" replacements for all of those classes, so just use them instead.

Aemoh87
2011-01-28, 02:42 AM
I am not a fan of banning tier 1, most players understand that playing an optimized tier 1 character isn't gonna pan out well for the party. And my group is mature enough to stick with it. Infact in 4 years together we have only had one fully optimized character pulled of the net that was played, and it was such a bad experience that the party never did it again.

icefractal
2011-01-28, 05:52 AM
Because things like celerity, shapechange, entangle, solid fog, grease, and shivering touch shouldn't be in the game.Ok, some of those are obvious, but Grease? Really? I think if your game balance breaks down from Grease or Entangle, or even Solid Fog, then it's too fragile a balance. "No tricks, blasting only, final destination" is not a good direction for D&D, IMO.


Neither should planar binding spells, planar ally spells, gate, astral projection, rope trick, freedom of movement effects, or mindblank.And again, you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Planar Binding is a 'ing classic fantasy element. Fix loopholes like infinite wishes? Definitely. Throw out anything that isn't trivial to balance? No thanks.

Eldan
2011-01-28, 06:20 AM
Grease is among the most powerful spells, actually.

Why? Because it requires balance checks. How many creatures have ranks in balance? Exactly.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-28, 08:36 AM
Grease is among the most powerful spells, actually.

Why? Because it requires balance checks. How many creatures have ranks in balance? Exactly.

DC 10. If opponent has ANY kind of positive dex mod, odds are he's not going to be affected. Also, any quadraped, or anything else with Stability, isn't going to be falling over any time soon either.

JaronK
2011-01-28, 08:42 AM
DC 10. If opponent has ANY kind of positive dex mod, odds are he's not going to be affected. Also, any quadraped, or anything else with Stability, isn't going to be falling over any time soon either.

You're missing the point. If you have less than 5 ranks in balance and you make a balance check, you're instantly flat footed, no save. Falling over isn't the issue, it's the instant flat foot thing. Very nice for sneak attackers/iaijutsu focus types, and denied dex is fun for all. Screws up their AoOs too.

VERY few monsters have the needed 5 ranks.

JaronK

Aemoh87
2011-01-28, 11:16 AM
Grease is good, BUT here is my biggest argument for keeping it.

A wizard can't cast grease and sneak attack the monster on the same turn... that means the party will have to use team work. That means at least 2 people are involved prolly more. That means happy players.

CuriousOne
2011-01-30, 08:50 PM
So the text of Grease says you only make the Balance check if you move. That makes standing there and attacking an option, because only if you *move* are you flat footed.

Barbarian MD
2011-01-30, 09:52 PM
I highly recommend one of the following:

Gestalt melee characters. (Allows for templates and monstrous races, or synergistic classes and dips)

Races of War (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Warriors_with_Class) (Because more people need to see the awesomeness of this source book. Some of the most powerful features escape a quick once-over. Immediate action 5 for steps for the fighter allow you to negate a hit. Immediate action, no-save interrupting abilities within 60 feet. The Samurai can deflect, reflect, and extinguish magic. The barbarian eventually gets his own anti-magic field.)

Penny Dreadful (Doc Roc and company) have a number of classes that are almost as powerful as Races of War, but perhaps more palatable to DMs--monk, barbarian, warmarked.)

Races of War style feats that scale with BAB (see either my sig or the link above)

true_shinken
2011-01-31, 08:36 AM
If you really think this is a problem, you should be playing 4e. It's the best 'fix' for this there is.

Person_Man
2011-01-31, 09:52 AM
And the only people who don't have this are Wizard, Sorc, Cleric, Artificer, and Druid.

What about the Archivist, Psion, Erudite, Favored Soul, Binder, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Duskblade, Factotum, Psychic Warrior, Wu Jen, Spirit Shaman, etc? Do they get extra power even though they're Tier 1-3?

Also, lets assume that you're only giving low tier classes Tome of Battle maneuvers? Depending on how you do it, you may make them more powerful then the fairly balanced Tome of Battle classes themselves. For example, the lowly Fighter gets 12 bonus feats (11 from levels, plus Tower or exotic shield proficiency at first level), plus a decent assortment of alternate class abilities and substitution levels. By comparison, the Warblade gets a total of 5 bonus feats (including the limited Weapon Focus) from a VERY limited list, Uncanny + Imp Uncanny Dodge (essentially 1 weak-ish Feat each), Int to various checks, and a very useful Capstone. A Fighter with Warblade maneuvers is thus more powerful then a Warblade, especially at early levels.

Anywho, I loves me some Tome of Battle. But the balance issues in 3.5 can't be fixed by just slapping it on to everything. Balance in 3.5 can only accomplished by having your party agree to a certain optimization level, and then creating their characters and choosing their spells/feats/etc as a group.

Greenish
2011-01-31, 10:03 AM
You're missing the point. If you have less than 5 ranks in balance and you make a balance check, you're instantly flat footed, no save. Falling over isn't the issue, it's the instant flat foot thing. Very nice for sneak attackers/iaijutsu focus types, and denied dex is fun for all. Screws up their AoOs too.Not just their AoO, you also can't use Immediate Actions if you're flat-footed. :smalltongue:

CycloneJoker
2011-01-31, 10:17 AM
The barbarian eventually gets his own anti-magic field.

Just a nitpick, but Shining South says barbarians get more magic than just AMF. It puts them nicely in low tier 2 or high tier 3.

Barbarian MD
2011-01-31, 01:25 PM
Just a nitpick, but Shining South says barbarians get more magic than just AMF. It puts them nicely in low tier 2 or high tier 3.

Never used Shining South. The RoW Barbarian gets an antimagic field while raging that doesn't affect himself or his equipment, and he is ALWAYS raging.

And the RoW Samurai ignores all DR/Hardness/AC due to armor and natural armor, and can pick up ignoring deflection bonuses.

Races of War does a fantastic job of creating, not Tier 1, but Tier 1.25 classes.

Amphetryon
2011-01-31, 01:29 PM
Have you considered swapping the Druid's Animal Companion feature with the Ranger's, to boost the Ranger a bit while bringing the Druid a bit lower (though not much)?

CycloneJoker
2011-01-31, 09:43 PM
Never used Shining South. The RoW Barbarian gets an antimagic field while raging that doesn't affect himself or his equipment, and he is ALWAYS raging.

And the RoW Samurai ignores all DR/Hardness/AC due to armor and natural armor, and can pick up ignoring deflection bonuses.

Races of War does a fantastic job of creating, not Tier 1, but Tier 1.25 classes.

Which is bad. Tier 1 is ALWAYS busted. Hence, tier 2-3 barbarian.

true_shinken
2011-01-31, 09:48 PM
Which is bad. Tier 1 is ALWAYS busted. Hence, tier 2-3 barbarian.

Exactly. I really dislike this Tome idea. And it's badly written as well; it reads like something a 12 year old wrote during his lunch break.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-31, 09:51 PM
Exactly. I really dislike this Tome idea. And it's badly written as well; it reads like something a 12 year old wrote during his lunch break.

I've heard all tier 1 parties lead to very interesting games.

Still, isn't poor writing one of the big causes for bustedness?

Barbarian MD
2011-01-31, 09:53 PM
I disagree with both of you. Just because something can break a game doesn't mean it has to. In the hands of responsible players, a Tome Melee and a Wizard make good party members. Otherwise you'd have to agree with the statement that baseball bats are bad simply because you can hit people with them.

true_shinken
2011-01-31, 10:06 PM
I disagree with both of you. Just because something can break a game doesn't mean it has to. In the hands of responsible players, a Tome Melee and a Wizard make good party members. Otherwise you'd have to agree with the statement that baseball bats are bad simply because you can hit people with them.
Well, if you "play nice" you don't need people to be on the same level anyway. You can have a Commoner, a Spell to Power Erudite, a gish and a Spellthief. If everyone "plays nice" you won't have any "balance problems".
It's the same thing.




Still, isn't poor writing one of the big causes for bustedness?
Well, rules-wise it's not that bad, actually (just too powerful). The thing is the writing style. It reads too amateur, too tongue-in-cheek. I greatly dislike it.

Barbarian MD
2011-01-31, 10:37 PM
The point I would make isthat sometimes everyone (DM and players included) want to cut loose and really pull out the stops. At that point, everyone has to play a caster, or else they're behind the power curve.

So Frank and K came along to fix that. It's a balanced, uber party, where everyone can have fun and no one feels left behid because they're not slinging spells.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-31, 11:11 PM
Well, if you "play nice" you don't need people to be on the same level anyway. You can have a Commoner, a Spell to Power Erudite, a gish and a Spellthief. If everyone "plays nice" you won't have any "balance problems".
It's the same thing.



Well, rules-wise it's not that bad, actually (just too powerful). The thing is the writing style. It reads too amateur, too tongue-in-cheek. I greatly dislike it.

Well, if they don't play nice, the commoner will crush them. Chicken Railgun? Wall of Chicken? Chicken-Douken? Chicken-me-hame-ha?

Also, MANTLED S2P Erudite>S2P Erudite. Or Erudite with 1 level dip in Mantled PsyWar.

And sounds annoying. Rules should be official-ish sounding.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-31, 11:18 PM
The point I would make isthat sometimes everyone (DM and players included) want to cut loose and really pull out the stops. At that point, everyone has to play a caster, or else they're behind the power curve.

So Frank and K came along to fix that. It's a balanced, uber party, where everyone can have fun and no one feels left behid because they're not slinging spells.

An Uber-party is NEVER balanced. EVER. Instead, you're walking around with 10 nukes, the Osterhagen Key, the TOS Doomsday Device, the Star Forge, and Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is billions of times more powerful than 10 nukes, it doesn't change the fact that the nukes are STILL F'ING NUKES! :smallsigh:

faceroll
2011-01-31, 11:38 PM
Ok, some of those are obvious,

It's the non-obvious stuff that make tier 3+ classes so much better at combat. Can you find any class abilities that match the unparalleled dominate that is web or stinking cloud or entangle? The only thing I can think of is a dungeoncrashing fighter with a spiked chain, knowckdown, a lot of reach and size advantage. And he doesn't get that noise until level 4+. And he also doesn't get to turn into troglodyte or flying elf whenever he fancies.


but Grease? Really? I think if your game balance breaks down from Grease or Entangle, or even Solid Fog, then it's too fragile a balance. "No tricks, blasting only, final destination" is not a good direction for D&D, IMO.

Grease shuts down anything in heavy armor that doesn't have ranks in balance. A level one spell shouldn't be able to incapacitate a level 20 barbarian. Entangle pretty much nerfs entire enemy classes, whole battlefields. Unless your have enemies that are built to specifically counter specific spells in a control-based build's repertoire, you may as not include them. Which is kind of a bummer. 100 marauding orc barbarians, running down on you? No worry, a couple entangles and we can all go have a pie somewhere.

The problem with Solid Fog is how it absolutely shuts down ANYTHING in it. It's too powerful. A plague-ridden commoner with two stumps for legs and a raging level 9,001 frenzied berserker minotaur move through it at the same rate.


And again, you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Planar Binding is a 'ing classic fantasy element. Fix loopholes like infinite wishes? Definitely. Throw out anything that isn't trivial to balance? No thanks.

Planar Binding should be a ritual spell, as introduced in UA, something plot based, not something a PC does in his basement at a whim, without risk. Enemies can do it, no problem, let them bind demons to their heart's content. But letting PCs get free access to astral projection at what, level 7? That's broken. A huge problem with 3.5 is how easy it is for PCs to get access to things they really shouldn't have access to, unless you want a bizarre tippy-esque setting where the full ramifcations of things like entangle and flight negate entire tropes, like armies or castles.


DC 10. If opponent has ANY kind of positive dex mod, odds are he's not going to be affected. Also, any quadraped, or anything else with Stability, isn't going to be falling over any time soon either.

Check out the ACPs on armor.

Draz74
2011-02-01, 02:23 AM
Honestly, I find this unnecessary. ToB multiclasses better than any optional ruleset. It stacks great with the core classes (okay, Paladin not so much).

Paladin actually isn't hard to get up to high Tier 4, even without multiclassing, when you can work with material from Complete Champion, Spell Compendium, and Dungeonscape. And of course a few maneuver-granting items or feats from Tome of Battle don't hurt.

Barbarian MD
2011-02-01, 08:36 AM
An Uber-party is NEVER balanced. EVER. Instead, you're walking around with 10 nukes, the Osterhagen Key, the TOS Doomsday Device, the Star Forge, and Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is billions of times more powerful than 10 nukes, it doesn't change the fact that the nukes are STILL F'ING NUKES! :smallsigh:

You're setting up a straw man here. I'm not talking about that stuff. A [Tome] Samurai does not equal any of those things. I'm simply talking about pairing a melee with a full caster at high levels and him not being useless without forcing the full caster to nerf himself.

Greenish
2011-02-01, 08:44 AM
Paladin actually isn't hard to get up to high Tier 4, even without multiclassing, when you can work with material from Complete Champion, Spell Compendium, and Dungeonscape. And of course a few maneuver-granting items or feats from Tome of Battle don't hurt.And Battle Blessing Paladin to RKV is pretty nifty.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-02-01, 08:45 AM
You're setting up a straw man here. I'm not talking about that stuff. A [Tome] Samurai does not equal any of those things. I'm simply talking about pairing a melee with a full caster at high levels and him not being useless without forcing the full caster to nerf himself.

Actually, it's not a straw man, although it is a rather mangled metaphor.

He's talking about power levels, and offering comparisons between power levels of classes.

He's trying to say that a [Tome] Samurai is a lot more powerful than a regular Samurai... let's call it being able to toss around nukes rather than swing a pointy stick. That's a vastly improved level of power. But it still can't even begin to compare to the Wizard's fleet of Death Stars which he can summon at will.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-01, 10:38 AM
You're setting up a straw man here. I'm not talking about that stuff. A [Tome] Samurai does not equal any of those things. I'm simply talking about pairing a melee with a full caster at high levels and him not being useless without forcing the full caster to nerf himself.
Exactly my point. Nothing will ever be balanced at that level. A wizard is ALWAYS, ALWAYS broken. So, if it can keep up with the Wizard, it's also busted.

Actually, it's not a straw man, although it is a rather mangled metaphor.

He's talking about power levels, and offering comparisons between power levels of classes.

He's trying to say that a [Tome] Samurai is a lot more powerful than a regular Samurai... let's call it being able to toss around nukes rather than swing a pointy stick. That's a vastly improved level of power. But it still can't even begin to compare to the Wizard's fleet of Death Stars which he can summon at will.

Actually, the Wizard was Star Forge, for reference.

Barbarian MD
2011-02-01, 11:08 AM
You're ignoring my point. A responsible party can use ninth level spells and [Tome] classes if the DM enjoys it, too.

There is a significant difference between doing that and using every source book ever written and 10 1-level dips and whatever else to intentionally break the game.

Wizards are breakable.
Star forges or whatever else are broken.

Acknowledge that there is a difference, please.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-01, 11:22 AM
You're ignoring my point. A responsible party can use ninth level spells and [Tome] classes if the DM enjoys it, too.

There is a significant difference between doing that and using every source book ever written and 10 1-level dips and whatever else to intentionally break the game.

Wizards are breakable.
Star forges or whatever else are broken.

Acknowledge that there is a difference, please.

There is a difference between breakable and broken. However, Wizards are broken. Just like 7th edition Daemons of Chaos. Busted unless you intentionally make it suck HARD. The wizard is busted, the Cleric is busted, the Druid is busted, the Erudite, most likely, S2P, definitely, inherently, same with Mantled S2P, except moreso. ToB is breakable, Psionics are breakable, Sorcerers and Favored Souls are breakable. Hell, basically every caster, even the freaking Warmage is breakable. Except five or so, which are BROKEN!. Any class with over a hundred decent class features is broken. NOTE: I said decent, as the fighter is crap, from a CharOp standpoint.

A "good," "nice," party can have a a Sword and Board fighter, a chickenless Commoner, a Dragonwrought Kobold sorcerer, and an S2P Erudite. So I guess that makes the S2P Erudite not busted, or it makes the commoner tier 1, amirite?

Barbarian MD
2011-02-01, 11:32 AM
I see that there is no point in continuing this discussion. Our definitions of "broken," "overpowered," and conception of a normal power are fundamentally at odds and irreconcilable.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-01, 11:44 AM
I see that there is no point in continuing this discussion. Our definitions of "broken," "overpowered," and conception of a normal power are fundamentally at odds and irreconcilable.

Elaborate. My definition is basically any class that either goes "anything you can do, I can do better," like a Wizard, Erudite, etc. or a class/build that does something ridiculously stupid, like the d2 crusader, or the Warmage/Rainbow Servant(remember how I said Warmages are breakable?), or the Druid's "I'm 2 fighters and almost a cleric."

Gnorman
2011-02-01, 12:17 PM
Elaborate. My definition is basically any class that either goes "anything you can do, I can do better," like a Wizard, Erudite, etc. or a class/build that does something ridiculously stupid, like the d2 crusader, or the Warmage/Rainbow Servant(remember how I said Warmages are breakable?), or the Druid's "I'm 2 fighters and almost a cleric."

This isn't broken. It is powerful, but it is not broken.

Breaking the game, in my opinion, requires you to scheme and twist and abuse its rules in some fashion or another to gain your advantage. In other words, you have to try. Many players have played casters sub-optimally (and will continue to do so), so it's not inherently broken.

Casters are supposed to be more powerful, at least in D&D canon. Doesn't make it fair - but it is how it was meant to be.

Torvon
2011-02-01, 12:42 PM
TOB is a better fix than no fix.

I like it, playing a whispergnome rogue/swordsage in a group full of casters. I cant end the world (they cant either - yet...), but he kicks ass pretty hard if he needs to.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-01, 08:45 PM
If it makes the game unfair, it is broken, assuming the players are not sucking.

Barbarian MD
2011-02-01, 10:59 PM
Define "unfair," in detail.

tyckspoon
2011-02-01, 11:08 PM
You're ignoring my point. A responsible party can use ninth level spells and [Tome] classes if the DM enjoys it, too.


As a vaguely-relevant tangent, the Tomes also assume/suggest a few setting metaphysics/houserules that help reign in some of the more obnoxious parts of D&D- and they're not the high-power but manageable things that most of the Tome material is aimed at. They're the 'screw it, I don't feel like participating in this adventure' effects. Teleportation is limited- it is impossible to teleport through a certain thickness of material, so you can't cross the entire planet. Scrying is similarly limited, IIRC. Wishes are limited- you can't make powerful magic with them, and powerful magic can't be purchased with the kind of items that can be made with a Wish (this does assume some form of easy Wish generation is being used, because any half-leveled Wizard can bind an Efreet, so everybody pretty much has +5 Inherent to everything.. but again, that's not broken. It just inflates the numbers, but doesn't really create new abilities for the characters. So it's relatively easy to adjust for.)

CycloneJoker
2011-02-01, 11:13 PM
Define "unfair," in detail.

First, the "anything you can do" song. Basically, if it renders multiple tier 3-4 classes worthless/pointless then it is overpowered and unfair. A good example is a Druid or "Being a bear, riding a bear, shooting bears with d3 bears," and basically rendering almost all melee combat classes worthless. The sorcerer is borderline, as it has the potential to do anything a wizard can, but not all at once. A good example of not is the Warblade who renders obsolete the already obsolete fighter. Overpowered and unfair are like vulgarity. Hard to define, easy to observe.

Might add more when I think about it

Barbarian MD
2011-02-02, 12:09 AM
But, what if everyone is using the class that is best at what they do? Wouldn't it then become "fair?".

Follow me here: A [Tome] Fighter/Samurai/Barbarian is WAY better at melee than a druid/cleric/wizard ever could be. By giving melee characters a much stronger class, it means that the Druids no longer outshine them in all areas. It lets the casters focus on casting and the fighter focus on swordplay. Granted, the party's level of power is much increased, but it allows for your definition of fairness (no one is better at doing what someone else's entire class is supposed to represent) if everyone is using somethig like this.

Therefore, if you want to play a Tier 1-2 party, it's equal and everyone has fun, and if you ban all Tier 1-2, it's equal and everyone has fun.

It's kind of like the difference between Satellite TV and Antenna TV--you still get the variety of flavors, but offers way more depth than the other.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-02, 12:27 AM
But, what if everyone is using the class that is best at what they do? Wouldn't it then become "fair?".

Follow me here: A [Tome] Fighter/Samurai/Barbarian is WAY better at melee than a druid/cleric/wizard ever could be. By giving melee characters a much stronger class, it means that the Druids no longer outshine them in all areas. It lets the casters focus on casting and the fighter focus on swordplay. Granted, the party's level of power is much increased, but it allows for your definition of fairness (no one is better at doing what someone else's entire class is supposed to represent) if everyone is using somethig like this.

Therefore, if you want to play a Tier 1-2 party, it's equal and everyone has fun, and if you ban all Tier 1-2, it's equal and everyone has fun.

It's kind of like the difference between Satellite TV and Antenna TV--you still get the variety of flavors, but offers way more depth than the other.

First off, I have yet to see this "Tome," but I would be willing to bet that MY CompWar samurai could trash a tome one. Second they have to be BUSTED for a Druid to be worse, especially since they, yanno, have 17th level wizard casting, or Cleric, or anything like that, and they have a lot of dumb muscle, and a pet that is nothing but dumb muscle.

If you want Tier 1-2 you have Melee in Cleric/FS and Druid. And if it is possible for a character to be better than a Persistent DMM full set of buffs cleric in melee, including all of the other spells the cleric has, well, they must be putting out SO much damage it's not even funny. Or be doing something equally dumb. And that is NOT my definition of fairness. If a class in your party is so powerful it forces you to have to revise an entire set of balanced classes that do not suck, (Like the Barb), it is ABSOLUTELY 100% busted, unfair, and any number of other synonyms.

Aemoh87
2011-02-02, 12:32 AM
Well this discussion has brought me to my I HATE 3rd party unless its for DM use rant. But I will spare you since the title says it all.

The biggest reason for giving many of the lower tier non-casting classes martial maneuvers is to make combat more interesting for them.

MeeposFire
2011-02-02, 12:36 AM
First off, I have yet to see this "Tome," but I would be willing to bet that MY CompWar samurai could trash a tome one. Second they have to be BUSTED for a Druid to be worse, especially since they, yanno, have 17th level wizard casting, or Cleric, or anything like that, and they have a lot of dumb muscle, and a pet that is nothing but dumb muscle.

If you want Tier 1-2 you have Melee in Cleric/FS and Druid. And if it is possible for a character to be better than a Persistent DMM full set of buffs cleric in melee, including all of the other spells the cleric has, well, they must be putting out SO much damage it's not even funny. Or be doing something equally dumb. And that is NOT my definition of fairness. If a class in your party is so powerful it forces you to have to revise an entire set of balanced classes that do not suck, (Like the Barb), it is ABSOLUTELY 100% busted, unfair, and any number of other synonyms.

Remember tier1 classes like druids are not more powerful because of damage. A fighter will likely deal more damage per hit than a druid. The druid is more powerful because it can melee well enough it does not need the fighter and brings another creature that fights well enough to do most of the fighters job (animal companion) and has spells to take care of everything else.

This tome whatever may be better in melee than a druid (by damage and the like) but it is not better than druid overall.

Hammerhead
2011-02-02, 12:40 AM
If a class in your party is so powerful it forces you to have to revise an entire set of balanced classes that do not suck, (Like the Barb), it is ABSOLUTELY 100% busted, unfair, and any number of other synonyms.
If a class in your party is so weak it forces you to have to revise an entire set of balanced classes that do not break anything, (Like the Transmuter), it is ABSOLUTELY 100% gimped, useless, and any number of other synonyms.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-02, 12:44 AM
Remember tier1 classes like druids are not more powerful because of damage. A fighter will likely deal more damage per hit than a druid. The druid is more powerful because it can melee well enough it does not need the fighter and brings another creature that fights well enough to do most of the fighters job (animal companion) and has spells to take care of everything else.

This tome whatever may be better in melee than a druid (by damage and the like) but it is not better than druid overall.
I should have been more clear.

If a class in your party is so weak it forces you to have to revise an entire set of balanced classes that do not break anything, (Like the Transmuter), it is ABSOLUTELY 100% gimped, useless, and any number of other synonyms.

Holy Strawman, BATMAN!

Burden of proof, baby. It's on you.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-02-02, 12:51 AM
Since people keep referencing "that Tome whatever" due to their inability to use Google (:smallwink:), here's (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Warriors_with_Class) a reposting of most of the Tome martial classes from Races of War for your viewing pleasure.

Hammerhead
2011-02-02, 12:57 AM
Holy Strawman, BATMAN!
Can we just retire that word? People use it incorrectly about as often as people use it.

Suppose I like Transmuter Wizards. Suppose I think they're a good balance point for my game. Suppose somebody designs a Fighter or Samurai expressly to fit into a game with a Transmuter Wizard. Suppose I say that Fighter or Samurai is balanced, rather than busted, overpowered or any number of synonyms. Am I wrong?

What makes the Transmuter Wizard a poor balance point, objectively speaking?
[Remember the CR system includes such gems as the level 12 Elf Truenamer and the Adamantine Horror.]

CycloneJoker
2011-02-02, 01:07 AM
Since people keep referencing "that Tome whatever" due to their inability to use Google (:smallwink:), here's (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Warriors_with_Class) a reposting of most of the Tome martial classes from Races of War for your viewing pleasure.
That has to be the single WORST, MOST BUSTED piece of homebrew/third party/whatever the hell it is I have EVER seen. Anyone who considers using it doesn't play the frikkin' game.

Can we just retire that word? People use it incorrectly about as often as people use it.

Suppose I like Transmuter Wizards. Suppose I think they're a good balance point for my game. Suppose somebody designs a Fighter or Samurai expressly to fit into a game with a Transmuter Wizard. Suppose I say that Fighter or Samurai is balanced, rather than busted, overpowered or any number of synonyms. Am I wrong?

What makes the Transmuter Wizard a poor balance point, objectively speaking?
[Remember the CR system includes such gems as the level 12 Elf Truenamer and the Adamantine Horror.]

I used it right. A strawman is a logical fallacy, the opponent distorting your argument.

Except it is already basically universal knowledge that they are. Already disproven. So, yes, you are. If they can keep up, and are as powerful as something that is overpowered, then they are, by definition, overpowered.

Draz74
2011-02-02, 01:12 AM
I used it right. A strawman is a logical fallacy, the opponent distorting your argument.

No, it's a specific type of fallacy and a specific type of distortion.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-02, 01:14 AM
No, it's a specific type of fallacy and a specific type of distortion.

I know, I have done this sort of logic before. I however, didn't feel like going into a paragraph or longer description.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-02-02, 01:15 AM
That has to be the single WORST, MOST BUSTED piece of homebrew/third party/whatever the hell it is I have EVER seen. Anyone who considers using it doesn't play the frikkin' game.

While I don't use Tome stuff in my own games, preferring to use my own system modifications, I really don't see why those classes are "busted" at all--with the singular exception of Foil Action, which is easy enough to rein in by adding limited uses or a save or similar. Yes, they're aiming for a higher power level than normal 3e martial classes, but that's kind of the point of Tome material, bringing casters and mundanes in line by buffing the latter rather than nerfing the former.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-02, 01:19 AM
While I don't use Tome stuff in my own games, preferring to use my own system modifications, I really don't see why those classes are "busted" at all--with the singular exception of Foil Action, which is easy enough to rein in by adding limited uses or a save or similar. Yes, they're aiming for a higher power level than normal 3e martial classes, but that's kind of the point of Tome material, bringing casters and mundanes in line by buffing the latter rather than nerfing the former.

Okay, unless I misread some of it, I can take a twenty on any roll every turn by using a swift action, or I can continually be under an antimagic field that doesn't effect me, and be at +high strength and huge speeds and healing. Yeah, it is on Loredrake level limberger.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-02-02, 01:47 AM
Okay, unless I misread some of it, I can take a twenty on any roll every turn by using a swift action, or I can continually be under an antimagic field that doesn't effect me, and be at +high strength and huge speeds and healing. Yeah, it is on Loredrake level limberger.

So, two levels after casters have been able to cast planar binding and gate to bring in creatures often possessing attack bonuses much higher than the fighter's, a fighter taking 20 on attack rolls is the game breaker?

Several levels after death ward, freedom of movement, and mind blank have become commonplace, a fighter taking 20 on saving throws is the game breaker?

10 levels after the Iron Heart Surge maneuver and the Sanctified Mind PrC's signature ability come online, the ability to suppress debilitating effects is the game breaker?

Several levels after the multiple stances allowing free out-of-turn movement and extra reach come online, the ability to do those things is the game breaker?

If you really look at those abilities, there's nothing in there a warblade/chameleon can't do at varying levels of effectiveness except Foil Action (which was already mentioned as being a bit--but only a bit--too powerful as written) and Supreme Combat Focus (which is exactly the sort of thing a 19th-level martial ability should be). Heck, the warblade/chameleon has more maneuvers and spells than the Tome fighter and is otherwise on par as long as the warblade/chameleon has equal access to Tome [Combat] feats. Just because your CWar Samurai can't trash it as you suggested earlier doesn't mean it's giving CoDzilla a run for its gold pieces by any means.

Dsurion
2011-02-02, 02:18 AM
I'm surprised it took three pages to get to the usual "TOME SUXXORZ! vs. the proponents" argument. I have no idea why, before comparing it to existing classes, people don't try reading FrankTrollman's idea of a balance point, and comparing it to that, before they fly off the handle. Frank and K have a theory that a class should be able to solo a level-appropriate encounter 50% of the time. Then the classes produced are balanced against that benchmark...With actual playtesting and revision! If it's the benchmark you don't agree with, fine. Debate that reasonably. But don't just auto-assume their classes are poorly made.

Personally, I think that if it's Wizard-level balance you want, then Races of War stuff is actually pretty cool. Frank just drops the idea that Melee Can't Have Nice Things and tries to give classes level-appropriate abilities on par with what wizards are doing. Sure, some of them look overpowered to people not used to the Tome work, but, again, reading is a wonderful skill. He has arguments (however valid they are, in your opinion) for everything he adds to a class. It is not done Willy Nilly. Seriously, The Gaming Den vigorously debates anything that gets posted before calling it finished. (Usually with lots of insults and logic.)

I tend to prefer their Rogue-level balance classes, like Frank's Knight, or Fire Mage more, myself.

Barbarian MD
2011-02-02, 08:59 AM
A couple of points:

1) I never said [Tome]classes were better overall. I said that they were better at melee. My point all along is that they're good enough at melee that the Druids and clerics can say, "yeah, you kill that thing with your sword; I'm going to be busy over here. It restores the concepts of party roles, which the CoDZilla totally destroys, without forcing everyone to play Tier 3-4.

2) You've been arguing this whole time without even READING the classes i've been talking about? Pardon me, but I feel like that's bad manners.

3) Based on 2, and my previous statement that our concepts of party balance are irreconcilable, I'm done with this conversation. You don't seem to be grasping my points, and perhaps I'm not grasping yours. It will be better for us both to focus on other things and let this argument die, so this thread can resume its discussion.

That is all. Good day.

Greenish
2011-02-02, 09:02 AM
That has to be the single WORST, MOST BUSTED piece of homebrew/third party/whatever the hell it is I have EVER seen.I take it you haven't been browsing dandwiki. :smallamused:

CycloneJoker
2011-02-02, 10:28 AM
So, two levels after casters have been able to cast planar binding and gate to bring in creatures often possessing attack bonuses much higher than the fighter's, a fighter taking 20 on attack rolls is the game breaker?
Yeah, it is. It doesn't change the fact that planar binding is more broken, but that is still busted like a door in front of the better fighter (Zhentarim Dungeoncrasher). Being able to generate an AMF at will, that doesn't affect you? Busted. It also doesn't change the fact that the Samurai now gets a +5 enhancement on any weapon at level 14.
Several levels after death ward, freedom of movement, and mind blank have become commonplace, a fighter taking 20 on saving throws is the game breaker?
Yeah, actually. You are making the mistake of assuming whatever the wizard does is balanced. it is nowhere near.
10 levels after the Iron Heart Surge maneuver and the Sanctified Mind PrC's signature ability come online, the ability to suppress debilitating effects is the game breaker?
Not what I was refering to.
Several levels after the multiple stances allowing free out-of-turn movement and extra reach come online, the ability to do those things is the game breaker?
He always gets reach. Not broken, until you figure out that he can take a twenty, or more than one. It doesn't say you can't have more than one. SO, yeah, I'll just just Vorpal the boss, or just save up 3 twenties first. Golly gee whilikers, that was FUN!!!!
If you really look at those abilities, there's nothing in there a warblade/chameleon can't do at varying levels of effectiveness except Foil Action (which was already mentioned as being a bit--but only a bit--too powerful as written) and Supreme Combat Focus (which is exactly the sort of thing a 19th-level martial ability should be). Heck, the warblade/chameleon has more maneuvers and spells than the Tome fighter and is otherwise on par as long as the warblade/chameleon has equal access to Tome [Combat] feats. Just because your CWar Samurai can't trash it as you suggested earlier doesn't mean it's giving CoDzilla a run for its gold pieces by any means.
Take a twenty? Last I checked they can't take one every turn.

I'm surprised it took three pages to get to the usual "TOME SUXXORZ! vs. the proponents" argument. I have no idea why, before comparing it to existing classes, people don't try reading FrankTrollman's idea of a balance point, and comparing it to that, before they fly off the handle. Frank and K have a theory that a class should be able to solo a level-appropriate encounter 50% of the time. Then the classes produced are balanced against that benchmark...With actual playtesting and revision! If it's the benchmark you don't agree with, fine. Debate that reasonably. But don't just auto-assume their classes are poorly made.

Personally, I think that if it's Wizard-level balance you want, then Races of War stuff is actually pretty cool. Frank just drops the idea that Melee Can't Have Nice Things and tries to give classes level-appropriate abilities on par with what wizards are doing. Sure, some of them look overpowered to people not used to the Tome work, but, again, reading is a wonderful skill. He has arguments (however valid they are, in your opinion) for everything he adds to a class. It is not done Willy Nilly. Seriously, The Gaming Den vigorously debates anything that gets posted before calling it finished. (Usually with lots of insults and logic.)

I tend to prefer their Rogue-level balance classes, like Frank's Knight, or Fire Mage more, myself.
Rogue, Factotum, barbarian, ToB. I even allow Psions and sorcerers if the player isn't going to be a jerk, but that is just REALLY stupid.

A couple of points:

1) I never said [Tome]classes were better overall. I said that they were better at melee. My point all along is that they're good enough at melee that the Druids and clerics can say, "yeah, you kill that thing with your sword; I'm going to be busy over here. It restores the concepts of party roles, which the CoDZilla totally destroys, without flexor everyone to play Tier 3-4.
Shatter, just for fun. Now, melee, you suck. Old fighter ubercharge sunders your magic sword. Now you sit back. You still lose to things like the Tentacle of Japanese Schoolgirl Molestation, or the fog. Now you are trying to put them on the same level by adding SO MUCH STUPID POWER! That DOESN'T balance things. IT makes them even more unbalanced. the Wizard and Cleric are still humming the "Anything you can do" song, so all it ends up doing is making them broken, but still far inferior to the wizard/cleric/druid.
2) You've been arguing this whole time without even READING the classes i've been talking about? Pardon me, but I feel like that's bad manners.
Pardon me, but I think the argument was better off that way. The way he "fixed" it is so clumsy and ineffectual. It doesn't fix anything.
3) Based on 2, and my previous statement that our concepts of party balance are irreconcilable, I'm done with this conversation. You don't seem to be grasping my points, and perhaps I'm not grasping yours. It will be better for us both to focus on other things and let this argument die, so this thread can resume its discussion.
Uh, yeah, passive aggressive, much?
That is all. Good day.
Wow, I see the sarcasm dripping our of my computer and making a puddle on the floor, from that last sentence.

I take it you haven't been browsing dandwiki. :smallamused:

That is now on my list of things to never do.

Draz74
2011-02-02, 11:47 AM
You are making the mistake of assuming whatever the wizard does is balanced. it is nowhere near.

Dice isn't making that assumption. The Tome series is. The ENTIRE UNDERLYING FOUNDATION of the Tome series is that exact premise: that Tier 1 classes are the balance point they are aiming for.

It's not my style of game, but you can't say it's automatically broken, because balance is relative. If the monsters/NPCs/challenges that the party faces are Tier-1-level optimization, and the entire party is Tier-1-level optimization, then the game is balanced. To run such a game successfully would require a DM who's both extremely skilled and insane, but ... those exist.


That is now on my list of things to never do.

There, I don't blame you.

randomhero00
2011-02-02, 11:48 AM
You could try, for every 3 levels of martial class you get gestalted 1 level of full spell casting class.

Gnorman
2011-02-02, 11:56 AM
Just so we're clear, this bit right here?


2) You've been arguing this whole time without even READING the classes i've been talking about? Pardon me, but I feel like that's bad manners.

Kind of a really good point.

And this?


Pardon me, but I think the argument was better off that way.

Arguments are better off when one party hasn't read the source material being discussed? I don't think so.

You're ignoring (whether purposefully or otherwise) the basic premise of Tome work: it's intended to be balanced at the Tier 1 level, where everything has the potential to break the game. It's just trying to give the other guys something to do other than standing around while the wizards and clerics wreck the multiverse. Is it overpowered? Yes, compared to your standard of balance. Is it balanced compared to the standard to which it was attempting to live up? Yes.

Megawizard
2011-02-02, 12:11 PM
Dice isn't making that assumption. The Tome series is. The ENTIRE UNDERLYING FOUNDATION of the Tome series is that exact premise: that Tier 1 classes are the balance point they are aiming for.

It's not my style of game, but you can't say it's automatically broken, because balance is relative. If the monsters/NPCs/challenges that the party faces are Tier-1-level optimization, and the entire party is Tier-1-level optimization, then the game is balanced. To run such a game successfully would require a DM who's both extremely skilled and insane, but ... those exist.

The tome rules assumes that the players are planar binding like there's no tomorrow, including but not limited to infinite consumable magic items and minions.

Is it balanced compared to the standard to which it was attempting to live up? Yes.

That simply isn't balanced by any meaning of the word if you ask me. Because the party has infinite resources, the only way the DM can counter that is:
-Let the players curb stomp everything he throws at them.
-Throw even an even bigger infinite, in wich case the party is the one curb stomped.

Now that may be playable (like, the party walks around the campaign world breaking and creating stuff as they please), but isn't balanced, because all battles are already decided long before they started.

This is, tell me one single CR-apropriate challenge for the wizard with an army of trillions of enslaved Solars from his time-altered plane. And wich can bring a trillion trillions more as an immediate action if he suspects that won't be enough? The tome rules don't help you in any way to solve that. But they say the wizard should be allowed to have his legion of solars.




Is it balanced compared to the standard to which it was attempting to live up?

Do tell, what can the tome fighter and samurai even hope to do against the legion of solars?

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-02-02, 12:24 PM
Yeah, it is. It doesn't change the fact that planar binding is more broken, but that is still busted like a door in front of the better fighter (Zhentarim Dungeoncrasher).

Note that taking 20 doesn't count as rolling a natural 20, if that's what you're worried about. And in terms of power level, there's already a stance that lets you take 11 on one d20 roll per turn in the mid levels (11th level, Aura of Perfect Order) and a feat that let you take 10 on one attack roll per round, among other things (18th level, Weapon Supremacy). This is merely a logical extension of those two.

Take your generic level 19 fighter. +19 BAB, +14 Str or so, +5 weapon. That's a total +38 attack bonus on his first attack without any temporary buffs or non-weapon items that boost attack. He already hits pit fiends, solars, and the tarrasque on a 2 or higher with his first attack. All taking 20 lets him do is hit them on his last attack with regularity as well.


Being able to generate an AMF at will, that doesn't affect you? Busted. It also doesn't change the fact that the Samurai now gets a +5 enhancement on any weapon at level 14.

I'm not seeing any ability to generate an AMF at will. I'm seeing Foil Action, which I have already said twice could probably use a saving throw in non-Tome games. I'm also seeing Greater Combat Focus, which is weaker than Iron Heart Surge in that it doesn't completely remove the effect. I'm not seeing anything else.

Regarding the samurai, he gets a +5 weapon at level 15, actually. If it's power you're worried about, a CWar samurai 5/kensai 10 can have a +10 equivalent weapon at the same level. If it's the "free" part you're worried about, any samurai with a cleric in the party can get a greater magic weapon for the same effect, and being able to do it himself just means he's not reliant on others for the basic tools to do his job.


Yeah, actually. You are making the mistake of assuming whatever the wizard does is balanced. it is nowhere near.

It's not "what the wizard does" it's "what everyone at that level does." You can buy rings of FoM and mind blank and get other items of death ward, and most of the time you will because you're facing dominate and SoDs and massive grapplers. This isn't a new thing.


Not what I was refering to.

Then what were you referring to?


He always gets reach. Not broken, until you figure out that he can take a twenty, or more than one. It doesn't say you can't have more than one. SO, yeah, I'll just just Vorpal the boss, or just save up 3 twenties first. Golly gee whilikers, that was FUN!!!!

1) Again, take 20 =/= natural 20.

2) He can do it twice, because gaining focus requires a swift action of which he gets only two, more likely once because he'll want to save an immediate action for other things.

3) An extra 5 feet of reach isn't amazing. There are multiple feats that will do that as well as at least one ToB stance.


As mentioned before, these classes really aren't as OMGWTFBROKEN as you might think them to be on first glance. If we're talking about fixing the magic/martial disparity and someone brings up a possible fix, it's better to take a look at the proposed fixed logically rather than skim it, declare it broken, and ignore it thenceforth.


Dice isn't making that assumption. The Tome series is. The ENTIRE UNDERLYING FOUNDATION of the Tome series is that exact premise: that Tier 1 classes are the balance point they are aiming for.

It's not my style of game, but you can't say it's automatically broken, because balance is relative. If the monsters/NPCs/challenges that the party faces are Tier-1-level optimization, and the entire party is Tier-1-level optimization, then the game is balanced. To run such a game successfully would require a DM who's both extremely skilled and insane, but ... those exist.

Precisely. I have, in fact, run games with Tome material and other material of comparable power levels on the one hand and Tier 1 wizards played to their full power or close to it on the other hand, and Tome classes still pale in comparison. I wouldn't say balancing to a Tier 1 baseline is the most fun option, but it isn't impossible or "stupid" as CycloneJoker claims.


The tome rules assumes that the players are planar binding like there's no tomorrow, including but not limited to infinite consumable magic items and minions.

That simply isn't balanced by any meaning of the word if you ask me. Because the party has infinite resources, the only way the DM can counter that is:
-Let the players curb stomp everything he throws at them.
-Throw even an even bigger infinite, in wich case the party is the one curb stomped.

Note that it's only infinite magic items of 15,000gp or below, and they re-price the powerful magic items at 15,001 or higher to ensure you can't have infinite numbers of them. That basically means everyone has a +5 inherent to each ability score by higher levels, all of the out-of-battle healing you want, and the useful but mostly fluffy magic items like flying mounts, but not +X uber swords of epicness or anything like that.

Note also that teleportation, scrying, demiplane creation, and similar things are nerfed (e.g. only the travel version of gate is allowed in the Tomes and the planar binding/ally spells have more restrictive rules), so calling Solars isn't possible, faster time planes aren't possible, and so forth.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-02, 12:26 PM
Dice isn't making that assumption. The Tome series is. The ENTIRE UNDERLYING FOUNDATION of the Tome series is that exact premise: that Tier 1 classes are the balance point they are aiming for.

It's not my style of game, but you can't say it's automatically broken, because balance is relative. If the monsters/NPCs/challenges that the party faces are Tier-1-level optimization, and the entire party is Tier-1-level optimization, then the game is balanced. To run such a game successfully would require a DM who's both extremely skilled and insane, but ... those exist. Pro tip: They don't.


There, I don't blame you.
I can say it is broken, as that is part of the definition of tier 1. It's built on a faulty premise.

Also, if anything is more badly designed/written/whatever, I don't want to know about it, as I really don't want my brain to melt and start dripping out my ears.

Just so we're clear, this bit right here?



Kind of a really good point.
I never even knew where it was, since it was called "tome," and all, I assumed it was some old book, and didn't bother. So, no, it isn't. And I had MORE than enough info from the description to argue.
And this?



Arguments are better off when one party hasn't read the source material being discussed? I don't think so.
Yeah, I gave it the benefit of the doubt, and assumed it was well designed, well written, and just based on a faulty premise, not being so bad that using it as toilet paper would be an insult to your ass.
You're ignoring (whether purposefully or otherwise) the basic premise of Tome work: it's intended to be balanced at the Tier 1 level, where everything has the potential to break the game. It's just trying to give the other guys something to do other than standing around while the wizards and clerics wreck the multiverse. Is it overpowered? Yes, compared to your standard of balance. Is it balanced compared to the standard to which it was attempting to live up? Yes.

No, it doesn't change that I, as a Wizard, can fog you, so you move 5', and then drop boulders/disintegrate you/Summon a demon to devour your soul/etc. They still lose to the same things melee did, and to "compensate" they built them so badly I like the vocabulary to describe.

The tome rules assumes that the players are planar binding like there's no tomorrow, including but not limited to infinite consumable magic items and minions.
Which is part of the faulty premise.
Is it balanced compared to the standard to which it was attempting to live up? Yes.
No, it isn't. They still lose to the same things. Fly? Fog? Naughty tentacles? They still lose, so to "balance it," they made them even more stupid.
That simply isn't balanced by any meaning of the word if you ask me. Because the party has infinite resources, the only way the DM can counter that is:
-Let the players curb stomp everything he throws at them.
-Throw even an even bigger infinite, in wich case the party is the one curb stomped.

Now that may be playable (like, the party walks around the campaign world breaking and creating stuff as they please), but isn't balanced, because all battles are already decided long before they started.

This is, tell me one single CR-apropriate challenge for the wizard with an army of trillions of enslaved Solars from his time-altered plane. And wich can bring a trillion trillions more as an immediate action if he suspects that won't be enough? The tome rules don't help you in any way to solve that. But they say the wizard should be allowed to have his legion of solars.

That's the problem, and the thing with appropriate CR is an obscure little thing called "DM fiat." Also, Hextor/The Burning Hate/Person with At-Will immediate Time Stop. Or, yanno, "DM FIAT." /)_-)

Do tell, what can the tome fighter and samurai even hope to do against the legion of solars?

Greenish
2011-02-02, 12:30 PM
I'm not seeing any ability to generate an AMF at will.Barbarian 15.

I'm not personally fond of the Tomes, but that's because I prefer the balance point to be lower on the scale.

Megawizard
2011-02-02, 12:43 PM
Note that it's only infinite magic items of 15,000gp or below, and they re-price the powerful magic items at 15,001 or higher to ensure you can't have infinite numbers of them. That basically means everyone has a +5 inherent to each ability score by higher levels, all of the out-of-battle healing you want, and the useful but mostly fluffy magic items like flying mounts, but not +X uber swords of epicness or anything like that.

1-99% of scrolls cost less than 15.000 GP. You have infinite 9th level spells, including but not limited to unlimited time stop. You don't need anything else really.
2-They allow you to get +X uber swords of epicness by selling souls. Get thinaum weapon. Get summon/calling scrolls. Start harvesting. Profit. You don't really need to because you've got infinite scrolls, but it does adds injury to the insult.



Note also that teleportation, scrying, demiplane creation, and similar things are nerfed (e.g. only the travel version of gate is allowed in the Tomes and the planar binding/ally spells have more restrictive rules), so calling Solars isn't possible, faster time planes aren't possible, and so forth.

Not true at all. The base tomes never alter Gate or creation of planes last time I checked, and the nerfs at the basic planar binding are easily bypassable (aka they still don't prevent you from hiting the poor smuch with mind control stuff untill they become your slaves).

Teleport may arguably be stronger now because it's no longer blocked to locations of great power (like the standard teleport, a rule most people miss).

Feel free to point me to those specific points on the tome however, I'll be happy to demonstrate how they're still abuseable (if not even more abuseable, like their new polymorph rules).

And even if the tomes did that all you claim, then they did nerf tier 1 after all.:smallamused:

Barbarian MD
2011-02-02, 12:57 PM
To get back to the OP, take a look at the [Combat] feats associated with Races of War for inspiration on how to improve the melee types. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_Combat_Feats

They scale with BAB, and provide fairly powerful feat trees, without having to take a whole feat tree. They're a beautiful example of how Fighter Bonus Feats should work, and you can incorporate them into a regular campaign without incorporating all the rest of Races of War.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-02-02, 01:10 PM
Barbarian 15.

I'm not personally fond of the Tomes, but that's because I prefer the balance point to be lower on the scale.

Ah, I thought he was still talking about the fighter, given the focus on Supreme Combat Focus. Yes, the barbarian gets an AMF ability, though note that (A) Sculpted AMFs are a common tactic at high levels in the kind of games they assumed, and aren't exactly rare in normal games, and (B) instantaneous conjurations can still ruin the barbarian's day. The barbarian is basically a mage-slayer, like the 1e incarnation that hated magic, and that's the sort of tool they need.


1-99% of scrolls cost less than 15.000 GP. You have infinite 9th level spells, including but not limited to unlimited time stop. You don't need anything else really.
2-They allow you to get +X uber swords of epicness by selling souls. Get thinaum weapon. Get summon/calling scrolls. Start harvesting. Profit. You don't really need to because you've got infinite scrolls, but it does adds injury to the insult.

The wealth system was supposed to be in Book of Gears, which isn't finished yet (and looks like it may not be finished). The arbitrary/NI lesser magical items thing was stated to be a stopgap measure to make Tome line up mostly with WBL only until BoG came out--it's to be assumed that you can access anything of less than 15K gp, not that you have all the <15K items you want; infinite/arbitrary anything was not intended and should not be used.


Not true at all. The base tomes never alter Gate or creation of planes last time I checked, and the nerfs at the basic planar binding are easily bypassable (aka they still don't prevent you from hiting the poor smuch with mind control stuff untill they become your slaves).

It's not a blanket change, but rather every instance of gate that I can find says "travel version only." Genesis and MotP aren't OGL and thus weren't addressed, but where they've talked about it they've said removing the time trait as a manipulable trait was in the works as soon as they addressed the cosmology.


And even if the tomes did that all you claim, then they did nerf tier 1 after all.:smallamused:

They nerfed specific effects, then gave those effects to almost anyone who wanted them; I wouldn't call that nerfing Tier 1. :smallwink:

Note that I'm not a shill for the Tome writers and am not arguing for Frank & K getting everything right; I'm just someone who was familiar with their work when it was posted on the WotC forums and meant to clear up misconceptions about its balance and functionality.


To get back to the OP, take a look at the [Combat] feats associated with Races of War for inspiration on how to improve the melee types.

They scale with BAB, and provide fairly powerful feat trees, without having to take a whole feat tree. They're a beautiful example of how Fighter Bonus Feats should work, and you can incorporate them into a regular campaign without incorporating all the rest of Races of War.

Agreed. Even giving the 3e fighter, barbarian, and samurai [Combat] feats is a good boost.

faceroll
2011-02-03, 01:18 AM
So, two levels after casters have been able to cast planar binding and gate to bring in creatures often possessing attack bonuses much higher than the fighter's, a fighter taking 20 on attack rolls is the game breaker?

Several levels after death ward, freedom of movement, and mind blank have become commonplace, a fighter taking 20 on saving throws is the game breaker?

10 levels after the Iron Heart Surge maneuver and the Sanctified Mind PrC's signature ability come online, the ability to suppress debilitating effects is the game breaker?

Several levels after the multiple stances allowing free out-of-turn movement and extra reach come online, the ability to do those things is the game breaker?

If you really look at those abilities, there's nothing in there a warblade/chameleon can't do at varying levels of effectiveness except Foil Action (which was already mentioned as being a bit--but only a bit--too powerful as written) and Supreme Combat Focus (which is exactly the sort of thing a 19th-level martial ability should be). Heck, the warblade/chameleon has more maneuvers and spells than the Tome fighter and is otherwise on par as long as the warblade/chameleon has equal access to Tome [Combat] feats. Just because your CWar Samurai can't trash it as you suggested earlier doesn't mean it's giving CoDzilla a run for its gold pieces by any means.

If everyone else is robbin and rapin, it's alright if you do too, right?

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-02-03, 03:07 AM
If everyone else is robbin and rapin, it's alright if you do too, right?

:smallsigh:

I'd like to point out once again that the Tome classes were designed specifically for use with Tier 1 classes that were making full use of divinations, summoned minions, and similar tricks.* This isn't a case of the Bandwagon Fallacy, this is a case of the classes performing exactly as designed. I've already noted that they are on the same conceptual and mechanical level as a warblade/chameleon and compared their abilities to those exist in 3e already, and have noted that the abilities that these classes have are well within the range of practical optimization for existing 3e characters (and not even Schroedinger Wizard practical op, either).

If you don't like the balance point of those classes, fine; I don't generally balance my material around T1 either. However, in a thread about taking martial classes that suck and making them not suck, saying "They're T2 martial classes! They're broken compared to martial classes in 3e!" is unproductive because that's the point of their creation. If you don't like them, explain what you don't like, and we can discuss what aspects of those classes would be more acceptable for general fixes. For instance, I think Foil Action is far too powerful for something that doesn't allow a save and has unlimited uses; rather than disregarding the Tome fighter entirely, however, I've said that adding a save and/or limited uses should bring it into line. Claiming them to be irrevocably broken and useless doesn't advance the discussion.

*I'd also like to point out that this wasn't my decision, these aren't my classes, and I'm not some sort of official Tome spokesperson or anything like that, but I've already said as much several times.

true_shinken
2011-02-03, 12:07 PM
I agree with Dice on this one. I highly dislike the Tomes, but if playing 'the br0kenzors with high DPR for more phat l00tz' is your cup of tea, knock yourself out with them. I just don't like tier 1 as a balance point (and as Dice mentioned, Tome classes are not t1, the are t2 at best) and find the writing style ridiculous. It's just my personal opinion and if it makes someone else's games more fun, well, I'm glad I don't need it for my games.

Megawizard
2011-02-03, 01:21 PM
The wealth system was supposed to be in Book of Gears, which isn't finished yet (and looks like it may not be finished). The arbitrary/NI lesser magical items thing was stated to be a stopgap measure to make Tome line up mostly with WBL only until BoG came out--it's to be assumed that you can access anything of less than 15K gp, not that you have all the <15K items you want; infinite/arbitrary anything was not intended and should not be used.

Oh but it was intended. They specifically state that anything "worth" less than 15.000 GP is literally dirt and you can assume yourself to have caves stuffed with it, and the characters would walk into a city literally made of minor magic items and don't be tempted to loot the walls.

And then they leave consumable items untouched, and their whole world crumbled under a trillion delayed fireballs.



It's not a blanket change, but rather every instance of gate that I can find says "travel version only." Genesis and MotP aren't OGL and thus weren't addressed, but where they've talked about it they've said removing the time trait as a manipulable trait was in the works as soon as they addressed the cosmology.

Precisely. The tome rules are unclear and hazy, and thus still as prone to abuse. It's precisely the same mistake as the original rules!

Oh, and they do discuss beholders and non-ogl races in great depth, so I won't take that excuse.

Really, they have threads dedicated to analyzing how centaur society would be based on their unique "hygienic" habits, but they couldn't stop to make a line like "Oh, and gate can only be used for travel now. Point". I simply don't buy it. They wanted gate to still be abuseable.




They nerfed specific effects, then gave those effects to almost anyone who wanted them; I wouldn't call that nerfing Tier 1. :smallwink:

Hmm, no they didn't. The solar legion is still there raping the tome fighter. You just admited you couldn't find a single clear instance of gate or planar genesis nerf.



Note that I'm not a shill for the Tome writers and am not arguing for Frank & K getting everything right; I'm just someone who was familiar with their work when it was posted on the WotC forums and meant to clear up misconceptions about its balance and functionality.

And like you just clarified now, they need a lot of DM fiat to work. Otherwise they're stating that the player have as many scrolls of anything they want. I wouldn't call that exactly functional.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-02-03, 01:36 PM
Oh but it was intended. They specifically state that anything "worth" less than 15.000 GP is literally dirt and you can assume yourself to have caves stuffed with it, and the characters would walk into a city literally made of minor magic items and don't be tempted to loot the walls.

And then they leave consumable items untouched, and their whole world crumbled under a trillion delayed fireballs.

...and then in the Book of Gears discussion threads they mention that all this was supposed to change as soon as BoG was done and that was a temporary measure because RAW allows infinite of anything and they might as well limit it for now.


Oh, and they do discuss beholders and non-ogl races in great depth, so I won't take that excuse.

That's your prerogative. They've had several threads talking about how much SRD text they can copy over if they want to remain within OGL and how they were going to ignore or overwrite most of the material in the Complete X/It's X Outside books, so it's obviously important to them.


And like you just clarified now, they need a lot of DM fiat to work. Like stating to have as many scrolls of anything like you want. I wouldn't call that exactly functional.

Because, as mentioned earlier, it's not finished yet. Complaining that some aspects still need fiat is like complaining you can't build a truenamer before Tome of Magic is published.


Look, it's obvious people here don't like the Tomes, and I don't care enough to keep arguing for them, so if there's any aspect you do like (like Combat feats) let's discuss that instead.