Magekiller bard PC build help (3.PF)

[WarKitty]

I'm familiar with the joker bard. The situation is a bit reversed here however, and the joker simply isn't a suitable PC. We have a low-caster party in a high level game. The casters are a bard and an alchemist. Given this, we'd like to turn the bard into a wizard killer.

The bard does not need to be facing batman. However, it does need to be able to shut down a reasonably well-built wizard. Are there any good tricks for shutting down a wizard in combat?

[Coidzor]

Grappler summons aren't half-bad for a certain stretch of the game. Probably out by high level though unless freedom of movement is difficult for them to come by from allies or items. And generally requires for the wizard to be terrestrial at the time of summoning.

Unfortunately, bards have a rather limited selection that primarily focuses on Will saves, so spells that are good against Wizards are going to be relatively rarer on their spell list.

A bard-> Sublime Chord would basically be a bard with sorcerer high level options for dealing with wizards... but bard casting I don't really see it.

Edit: best thing so far I've found is Stunning Finale (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/stunning-finale)which uses one's action to take away their action for the next round and targets their fort and two other creatures' forts so that at least it's not basically the same as counterspelling.

Followed by Phantasmal Web (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/phantasmal-web) so long as they're in a small enough group or their other allies are indisposed beyond the radius of the apparent spell in order to minimize opportunities to disbelieve the illusion. This heavily depends upon how disbelief is handled and how one obtains opportunities to disbelieve them. If they get the will save just for having the spell cast on them or trying to move or what have you, it then becomes basically useless.

This is a combination blasting debuff... Deafening Song Bolt. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/deafening-song-bolt) Has the benefit of having no save but requires being able to hit the wizard with a ranged touch attack which may be problematic.

Mass Cacophonous Call (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cacophonous-call)all of his allies/summons such that he's wide open to your peeps. Rarely going to have more than 15 creatures on one side of a battle without going into charlie foxtrot territory.

Edit2: Animate Objects (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animate-objects) a large+ object behind enemy lines and have it slam+grab+constrict the wizard?

[Vknight]

Maybe with some help from your resident munchkin & rule lawyer.
I don't personally think of anything that pops to mind.

[WarKitty]

Maybe with some help from your resident munchkin & rule lawyer.
I don't personally think of anything that pops to mind.

I'm the closest thing they have to one of those, sorry.

Is there really anything other than another wizard that can counter a wizard? We have a party that hates playing wizards and clerics but wants to play high level.

[Psyren]

Is there really anything other than another wizard that can counter a wizard? We have a party that hates playing wizards and clerics but wants to play high level.

Druid? Psion? Sorcerer?

[WarKitty]

Druid? Psion? Sorcerer?

No psionics allowed. We do have a sorc, but he wants to blast. Most of them don't even want to play casters.

Actually, is there anything that *could* be given to the bard to make it work? Or anyone else? Homebrew should work fine.

[Vknight]

Druid with spells focusing on Ref & Fort saves. 'Poison', 'Entangle, The Book of Vile Darkness version of Entangle.
Some cure spells & buff for the animal & yourself.

Druid animal companion with Fighter, Barbarian, or Rouge levels.
It should have high speed.
Either grappling, sneak, and/or high damage.

Bear, Ape, Hawk, Owl, Crocodile, Dog, or Lion (Other Big Cats) for the animal companion

[Coidzor]

It'd be a bit more helpful if we knew what level you guys actually were, come to think of it.

Without some way of evading other combatants and getting up to and personally ganking the wizard himself, a bard is stuck relying on 4-6th level spells which means that they have to target the weakest save to have any chance of working, though preferably something that obviates the ability of the wizard to have a saving throw.

Alternatively, I think runestaff technology might be applicable in this situation.

[WarKitty]

Druid with spells focusing on Ref & Fort saves. 'Poison', 'Entangle, The Book of Vile Darkness version of Entangle.
Some cure spells & buff for the animal & yourself.

Druid animal companion with Fighter, Barbarian, or Rouge levels.
It should have high speed.
Either grappling, sneak, and/or high damage.

Bear, Ape, Hawk, Owl, Crocodile, Dog, or Lion (Other Big Cats) for the animal companion

No druid either. It's not that any of these classes are banned (except psionics), but most of the players would rather run and hit things than stand back and sling spells. Ok, the bard player is really the only one that likes to stand and sling spells that aren't fireballs. She wants to play a trickster buffing character.

Edit: Starting at 11, rapid xp gain.

[Psyren]

We do have a sorc, but he wants to blast.

So let him - have him build a Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer), it'll be hard for the enemy wizards to cast when he is forcing unbeatable concentration checks. He can use his other toys to get the drop on them, and Wings of Cover will keep him safe from most reprisals.



Actually, is there anything that *could* be given to the bard to make it work?

Sublime Chord would... which leads us right back to "Sorcerer" unfortunately...

[Vknight]

No Druid.

Ok the high concentration check idea or targeting low save idea from Psyren & Coidzor respectively are the best bet then.

A warlock could also be good with levels in rouge, 'Eldritch Claws' high unarmed damage it could force impossible concentrayion saves well still providing some spell power.
The levels in rouge give us that sneaky feel with the Warlock power

[WarKitty]

Well, here's our party:

1 sorc/alchemist blend
1 bard
1 rogue, plays like a fighter, only a rogue because "someone had to do it"
1 ranger
1 fighter

They like killing things. Most of them like roleplaying as well. They just don't really seem to want the hassle of prepared casters. And they want to god-like feel of high levels.

Yes I do get the feeling that D&D is the wrong system for these guys, but no one wants to learn something else.

[Psyren]

Well, here's our party:

1 sorc/alchemist blend
1 bard
1 rogue, plays like a fighter, only a rogue because "someone had to do it"
1 ranger
1 fighter

They like killing things. Most of them like roleplaying as well. They just don't really seem to want the hassle of prepared casters. And they want to god-like feel of high levels.

Yes I do get the feeling that D&D is the wrong system for these guys, but no one wants to learn something else.

Actually, there's nothing really wrong with that group setup. The sorc has the potential to outshine the others but since he's sticking to blasting he'll just be another archer for the most part. Otherwise from that, they are a low tier party, so if you're the DM you need to scale down their encounters accordingly.

[WarKitty]

Actually, there's nothing really wrong with that group setup. The sorc has the potential to outshine the others but since he's sticking to blasting he'll just be another archer for the most part. Otherwise from that, they are a low tier party, so if you're the DM you need to scale down their encounters accordingly.

Yeah I am. I'm a bit confused here, honestly. I had a lovely high-magic world built...and then these guys come along. And I have absolutely no idea how to make them functional in my world short of scrapping a few months of planning and starting over. In about a week.

[Vknight]

Make them an oddity with many Anti-Magic fields & gladiator combat like that. So in those areas only they can opperate.

[Coidzor]

They like killing things. Most of them like roleplaying as well. They just don't really seem to want the hassle of prepared casters. And they want to god-like feel of high levels.

Yes I do get the feeling that D&D is the wrong system for these guys, but no one wants to learn something else.

...It sounds like they're the kind of people for whom Tome of Battle was made, really.

It'd probably be better in the long run to shift the tone/focus of the campaign such that dedicated casters are kinda rare opponents for them, really.

[Vknight]

Yeah the tome is perfect for these guys.

[Psyren]

Yeah I am. I'm a bit confused here, honestly. I had a lovely high-magic world built...and then these guys come along. And I have absolutely no idea how to make them functional in my world short of scrapping a few months of planning and starting over. In about a week.

Give the really powerful casters something better to do. Or make just a few be a boss battle. I know you don't want to change your world, but it sounds like your players wouldn't have much fun facing off against Saruman and his iron golem bodyguards, so you may as well just scale things down.

[Vknight]

Exactly remeber its the players first you second

[WarKitty]

Give the really powerful casters something better to do. Or make just a few be a boss battle. I know you don't want to change your world, but it sounds like your players wouldn't have much fun facing off against Saruman and his iron golem bodyguards, so you may as well just scale things down.


Exactly remeber its the players first you second


Oh I'm aware. But I'm also running out of ways to challenge them properly other than throwing casters at them. Every single melee monster I threw last campaign went down within a round. Maybe 2 if I doubled its hit points and added ac. And then they're getting bored with melee slugfests.

Edit: ok, part of the problem is that I'm getting bored with throwing variations on "monster full attacks for x damage" at them. I want to run this game, they want to play it, but we're having a lot of play style issues.

[Vknight]

How about a Troll, Half-Dragon. With 4Rouge, 4Warlock, 1Monk (Or other combination with 4+Warlock)
The feat improved natural weapon.
He regenerates has flight, massive melee so he requires careful planning to take down.

[WarKitty]

How about a Troll, Half-Dragon. With 4Rouge, 4Warlock, 1Monk (Or other combination with 4+Warlock)
The feat improved natural weapon.
He regenerates has flight, massive melee so he requires careful planning to take down.

I'm not sure how to fit that in.... The whole plotline is around the invasion of psionic casting monsters, really. With them having to take out an elder brain, aboleth lair, etc.

[Vknight]

Well he could be a powerful Merc. His skill having let him not get killed.

[WarKitty]

Well he could be a powerful Merc. His skill having let him not get killed.

Possibly. Mainly I'm not sure how they're going to survive an attack of a psionic-based enemy. And it really is important that it be psionic based, they're going to have to be able to kill several mind flayers to finish the campaign up. At this point I can't see them having anything to do against a mind flayer except stand there and get dominated.

[Coidzor]

^: Hmm. Yeah. Ah...I got nothing, especially if they've continued to ignore that glaring weakness and not taken any steps to try to cover it up.



You might want to look into that thread on barfights. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185019) While a lot of it is clothed in the absurd, there are some ideas there that might be of interest to you.

Additionally, one thing that can make mundane battles less... well, mundane is the exploration of terrain effects.

[Psyren]

Oh I'm aware. But I'm also running out of ways to challenge them properly other than throwing casters at them. Every single melee monster I threw last campaign went down within a round. Maybe 2 if I doubled its hit points and added ac. And then they're getting bored with melee slugfests.

Edit: ok, part of the problem is that I'm getting bored with throwing variations on "monster full attacks for x damage" at them. I want to run this game, they want to play it, but we're having a lot of play style issues.

So throw in a caster or several; nobody's saying don't. You seem knowledgeable enough to know what kind of spells will challenge them vs. splatter them on the dungeon walls.

For instance, an enemy enchanter - say, some kind of fey - would give the bard a chance to shine and put the rogue and fighter in danger, especially if she successfully gains control of one of them.

But something like Forcecage would be auto-win against these guys (unless the sorc can disintegrate it) so that would be right out.

Approach it like that.

[Vknight]

Exactly as Psyren said.

I still like the Troll because his low spellcasting from Warlock will really show them maybe we should have a spell caster or at least a counter.

[WarKitty]

Yeah, the campaign just isn't off to a promising start. I lost two players who were both going to bring in casters, due to our other DM not finishing up his campaign anywhere near when planned. So I'm kind of stuck with the melee component, where I feel like I'm trying to balance a couple of players who are there to hit things and roll dice, and a couple of players who hate rolling dice and want to roleplay, so no matter what I do half the group is bored. The whole issues with mages is just icing on the cake - I don't demand ridiculous optimization, but I have one player who's trying to turn a rogue into a frontliner, and one who's insisting fighters are overpowered. But they want to have a high-level save-the-world quest.

[faceroll]

No psionics allowed. We do have a sorc, but he wants to blast. Most of them don't even want to play casters.

Actually, is there anything that *could* be given to the bard to make it work? Or anyone else? Homebrew should work fine.

Readied actions to target an enemy caster with scorching rays, wings of flurry, fireballs, whatever, are superior to counterspells, as they force concentration checks AND do damage. Most enemy casters that aren't Outsiders or Dragons go down very quickly to direct damage. Even a barrage of metamagic'd magic missiles (or force missiles) could end a wizard without the Shield spell up.


Oh I'm aware. But I'm also running out of ways to challenge them properly other than throwing casters at them. Every single melee monster I threw last campaign went down within a round. Maybe 2 if I doubled its hit points and added ac. And then they're getting bored with melee slugfests.

Edit: ok, part of the problem is that I'm getting bored with throwing variations on "monster full attacks for x damage" at them. I want to run this game, they want to play it, but we're having a lot of play style issues.

Use Outsiders. They get spells, spell like abilities, brutal Su abilities, full attacks, and decent HP. Bone Devils laying down walls of ice and carving everyone up one by one would be fun for you and challenging to the PCs.

Loredrake Dragons also get great casting and buckets of HP.


Possibly. Mainly I'm not sure how they're going to survive an attack of a psionic-based enemy. And it really is important that it be psionic based, they're going to have to be able to kill several mind flayers to finish the campaign up. At this point I can't see them having anything to do against a mind flayer except stand there and get dominated.

Have them face off vs. thralls first, with plenty of warnings of the dangers of mind control. Maybe have a boss battle indeed involve one of the players getting dominated. It will be in their best interest to search for ways to boost their will save, get protection from evil (which nulls mind control stuff), etc etc. Have them quest for an elixir, a mind shielding helm, a symbiont, knowledge of an ancient way to fight off mind control effects (give the some of the party a bonus feat that gives them the benefit of martial study: iron heart surge).


So throw in a caster or several; nobody's saying don't. You seem knowledgeable enough to know what kind of spells will challenge them vs. splatter them on the dungeon walls.

For instance, an enemy enchanter - say, some kind of fey - would give the bard a chance to shine and put the rogue and fighter in danger, especially if she successfully gains control of one of them.

But something like Forcecage would be auto-win against these guys (unless the sorc can disintegrate it) so that would be right out.

Approach it like that.

Yeah, exactly. An enemy that peppers the PCs with stuff like fireballs isn't that threatening except to the caster. The rogue gets evasion, the bard gets good reflex saves, and the fighter gets high HP. It would take about 4 or 5 rounds of blasting to kill the party, and the damage won't be nearly as devastating/debilitating as a web, glitterdust, or mass charm monster.


But they want to have a high-level save-the-world quest.

That's totally independent of how big a monster's numbers are. That's roleplay, and you can get there by rolling dice and killing things. Just because it's high level doesn't mean you have to set up the Tippy-verse. Your players sure don't sound like they want that.

Tone down the optimization of individual monsters and try to figure out how to get swarms of monsters that the fighter can great cleave through or the sorc will blast through to be threats.

Shower them with magic items with sweet abilities. Or a handful of magic items with a great many abilities. Give them quests with benefits like templates and stat boosts and feats.

[Hammerhead]

Spamming Silence and [Greater] Dispel Magic can let a Bard do a decent impression of an antimage. Neither's perfect, but they combat most stock options from most stock casters.

And you could keep the mages, just not optimize them (not every NPC needs to be prepped for combat; not every one who is prepped for combat needs be prepared for every possibility or to use the most powerful battle spells available). That would also allow more diversity among NPCs in terms mechanical MOs (an ice-themed wizard could feel more different from a time-themed wizard than two divination/ray-obsessed TLN-devotees).

[Bakkan]

I built a magekiller bard for the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge a while ago. You might find a few tricks from there relevant. Note that the "Bonus Essentia" entry in the feat column is incorrect, and it should be requiem (from Libris Mortis). The relevant posts are here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9741716&postcount=85) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9741718&postcount=86).

[WarKitty]

Readied actions to target an enemy caster with scorching rays, wings of flurry, fireballs, whatever, are superior to counterspells, as they force concentration checks AND do damage. Most enemy casters that aren't Outsiders or Dragons go down very quickly to direct damage. Even a barrage of metamagic'd magic missiles (or force missiles) could end a wizard without the Shield spell up.



Use Outsiders. They get spells, spell like abilities, brutal Su abilities, full attacks, and decent HP. Bone Devils laying down walls of ice and carving everyone up one by one would be fun for you and challenging to the PCs.

Loredrake Dragons also get great casting and buckets of HP.



Have them face off vs. thralls first, with plenty of warnings of the dangers of mind control. Maybe have a boss battle indeed involve one of the players getting dominated. It will be in their best interest to search for ways to boost their will save, get protection from evil (which nulls mind control stuff), etc etc. Have them quest for an elixir, a mind shielding helm, a symbiont, knowledge of an ancient way to fight off mind control effects (give the some of the party a bonus feat that gives them the benefit of martial study: iron heart surge).



Yeah, exactly. An enemy that peppers the PCs with stuff like fireballs isn't that threatening except to the caster. The rogue gets evasion, the bard gets good reflex saves, and the fighter gets high HP. It would take about 4 or 5 rounds of blasting to kill the party, and the damage won't be nearly as devastating/debilitating as a web, glitterdust, or mass charm monster.



That's totally independent of how big a monster's numbers are. That's roleplay, and you can get there by rolling dice and killing things. Just because it's high level doesn't mean you have to set up the Tippy-verse. Your players sure don't sound like they want that.

Tone down the optimization of individual monsters and try to figure out how to get swarms of monsters that the fighter can great cleave through or the sorc will blast through to be threats.

Shower them with magic items with sweet abilities. Or a handful of magic items with a great many abilities. Give them quests with benefits like templates and stat boosts and feats.

I think it's more that I set up Tippyverse, told them that I was setting up tippyverse, and then all my casters dropped the game. And I just don't have the time to redo the world, particularly since they were given time afterward to redo their characters and request any special abilities they wanted. At this point it's either live with the world I prepared or don't have a game, because the main semester is starting this monday and I can't make up new stuff that fast.


I built a magekiller bard for the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge a while ago. You might find a few tricks from there relevant. Note that the "Bonus Essentia" entry in the feat column is incorrect, and it should be requiem (from Libris Mortis). The relevant posts are here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9741716&postcount=85) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9741718&postcount=86).

Some interesting stuff there definitely. The bard of the party has a deathly fear of melee combat, but I might recommend some of the feats to the fighter and rogue.

[faceroll]

I think it's more that I set up Tippyverse, told them that I was setting up tippyverse, and then all my casters dropped the game. And I just don't have the time to redo the world, particularly since they were given time afterward to redo their characters and request any special abilities they wanted. At this point it's either live with the world I prepared or don't have a game, because the main semester is starting this monday and I can't make up new stuff that fast.

I would crush them without mercy.

[Gabe the Bard]

If the melee characters just want to do melee, then it would be good to beef up their defenses against spells. You could give them some kind of spell resistance or armor that has a chance to deflect rays and ranged targeted spells, like the Tarrasque's carapace.

Maybe you could grant the bard some extra music abilities that disrupt casters, but something a bit stronger than Sound of Silence. And if she's interested in the sublime chord, it's a really great prestige class that I would highly recommend.

[Psyren]

I think it's more that I set up Tippyverse, told them that I was setting up tippyverse, and then all my casters dropped the game. And I just don't have the time to redo the world, particularly since they were given time afterward to redo their characters and request any special abilities they wanted. At this point it's either live with the world I prepared or don't have a game, because the main semester is starting this monday and I can't make up new stuff that fast.

Don't have a game. It sounds like one side or the other is not going to have fun the way things are going, so put your friendship first and do something else.

[2xMachina]

Hmm, I prefer AoO melee with Magekiller.

Cast? Take X damage and roll Con check or lose the spell.

EDIT: Con check as in Conc.

[Hober Mallow]

There is an excellent way to totally down a Wizard / Sorcerer in combat as a Bard. Unfortunately you need to be 12th level to get 2 levels of Sublime Chord.

This gives you Song of Arcane Power, which can add 4 to your caster level if you ramp your Perform skill high enough.

You must have the feat Arcane Mastery which lets you take 10 on caster level checks and preferably have a Dispel Cord from the MIC (+2 on caster level checks for Dispelling)

A high initiative is exceptionally useful so as to beat the Wizard (a Ring of Anticipation from Drow of the Underdark is very useful here; roll twice and take the best).

Every round the Bard holds their standard action whilst your move action is Song of Arcane power. Your action is conditional upon the Wizard casting a spell, when you cast Greater Dispel Magic at it.

Your roll (no need to roll the D20 due to Arcane Mastery) becomes:

12 (level) + 4 (Song of ArcPow) + 10 (Arcane Mastery) + 2 (cord) = 28 which automatically dispels everything cast by a 17th level caster or lower.

Combine this with Versatile Spellcaster to turn your 4th level slots into 5th level slots and you can keep this up for more than enough rounds for everyone else to kill the Wizard.

Carry a scroll of Spellcaster's Bane for an extra +2 caster level

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wait a second... virtually every member in this group is melee-centric (two fighters and a rogue who wants to be a fighter and a bard)?

Dude, Inspire Courage + Dragonfire Inspiration. +14 morale bonus to attack and damage, and +14d6 Sonic damage to every hit.

Throw a few hundred d6 of damage at the thing. Eventually, SOMETHING has to land, and turn it into a greasy stain.

First off:

Gear: Badge of Valor, Vest of Legends, Masterworked Lute. Total bonuses: +3
Feats: Song of the Heart, Words of Creation: A +1, and a X2 on ALL bonuses
Spells: I... I can't remember, it's a 1st level Bard song, that gives an additional +1

So there's a +5, then you get to double everything on top of that. He should be able to get all that by around 8th or 9th level, then go to town.

Even better, this works on summoned minions as well. So if the Sorcerer wants to pick up some kind of Summon Monster spell, you get to add that to all his summoned minions as well... yes, you can have a simple Celestial Badger... with a +20 to attack, doing +14 damage, and an additional 14d6. Even dinky minions get scary. And that also applies to Attacks of Opportunity which will happen if said wizard starts casting around the minions, which can be summoned adjacent to the wizard. Which means he then needs to start making Concentration checks, which gives more opportunities for him to fail.

[WarKitty]

Wait a second... virtually every member in this group is melee-centric (two fighters and a rogue who wants to be a fighter and a bard)?

Dude, Inspire Courage + Dragonfire Inspiration. +14 morale bonus to attack and damage, and +14d6 Sonic damage to every hit.

Throw a few hundred d6 of damage at the thing. Eventually, SOMETHING has to land, and turn it into a greasy stain.

First off:

Gear: Badge of Valor, Vest of Legends, Masterworked Lute. Total bonuses: +3
Feats: Song of the Heart, Words of Creation: A +1, and a X2 on ALL bonuses
Spells: I... I can't remember, it's a 1st level Bard song, that gives an additional +1

So there's a +5, then you get to double everything on top of that. He should be able to get all that by around 8th or 9th level, then go to town.

Even better, this works on summoned minions as well. So if the Sorcerer wants to pick up some kind of Summon Monster spell, you get to add that to all his summoned minions as well... yes, you can have a simple Celestial Badger... with a +20 to attack, doing +14 damage, and an additional 14d6. Even dinky minions get scary. And that also applies to Attacks of Opportunity which will happen if said wizard starts casting around the minions, which can be summoned adjacent to the wizard. Which means he then needs to start making Concentration checks, which gives more opportunities for him to fail.

Only one fighter. Honestly I'm mostly worried about how they're going to deal with an enemy that doesn't stand still and let them hit him. They're doing plenty of damage already when they close. I just don't want every battle to turn into a slugfest, and I think some of my players are also getting tired of the whole slugfest (mainly the sorc and bard players, respectively).

Thankfully the fighter did at least finally get the hint and buy some flying boots.