Spell Discussion: High Level vs Metamagic

[Elric VIII]

I would like to start off by saying I love spellcasters, and the least amount of spellcasting I have ever had over a planned 20 level build has been CL 12.

Here's what I would like to inquire about: Do people prefer level 6 - 9 spells or lower level metamagic-enhanced spells?

When I'm planning spell choices I almost don't want higher level spells in favor of lower level Quickened, Twinned, and Persisted spells. I had this revelation when I was planning out a spell progression that included Energy Drain, but coule also cast a (Easy Metamagic enhanced) Split Ray, Twinned Enervation in that 9th level slot. I know that his type of thing is not true for all spells, but with the exception of the really great ones like Miracle and Wish (used wisely) or Gate, et al it seems that you can get more power with metamagic (except for the lower DCs).

I was thinking about discussing with the players of a planned campaign the possibility of allowing the highest level spell to be 5th, but granting a free metamagic feat every time a new spell level beyond 5th would be gained (they would still have the spell slots). My thought was to have the high level spells in ther game, but only a few and only as loot (an ancient scroll or a relic for channeling the power of your god as a means to get a limited number of high level spells on your list). I'm not doing this as a "magic fix," but I'm interested in trying something different.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Runestar]

It depends.

There are some lower lv spells which continue to work wonders even at higher lvs, and even moreso when metamagicked.

Then there are some higher lv spells which absolutely rule the game, and have no metamagicked equal (in terms of slots).

[Killer Angel]

Usually, if you go for damage or something similar, a metamagic spell works better than a high level one. But I wouldn't waste a 8th lev. slot, if this means to don't take Maze for that day.
I usually use a mix of high level and metamagic.

[Elric VIII]

Then there are some higher lv spells which absolutely rule the game, and have no metamagicked equal (in terms of slots).

I was wondering what types of spells I should include because of their unique effects. Do you have any suggestions?

The goal is not to limit power, but change it.


Usually, if you go for damage or something similar, a metamagic spell works better than a high level one. But I wouldn't waste a 8th lev. slot, if this means to don't take Maze for that day.
I usually use a mix of high level and metamagic.

This is exactly the type of unique spell that I was thinking of including in loot.

[Jair Barik]

It depends.

There are some lower lv spells which continue to work wonders even at higher lvs, and even moreso when metamagicked.

Then there are some higher lv spells which absolutely rule the game, and have no metamagicked equal (in terms of slots).

This
A maximised fireball for example is relatively redundant as a method of killing numerous weak creatures as A:a non maximised would probably kill them anyway and B:Clodkill would do the same thing without giving a save.
Against stronger critters you could metamagic up a scorching ray but why bother when a disintigrate or even better, a finger of death is more effective.
This is without getting into spells such as wish, gate, polymorph shenanigans, timestop and utility spells that don't care about metamagic (anything to do with teleporting). The useful metamagics at high levels are extend or the one that increases duration to a day, as they allow you to put more buffs on yourself at the start of the day that will then last until the end of the day (sometimes longer) and so don't need to be reapplied or cast at the start of combat.

[Elric VIII]

One thing that I'm seeing here is that a fair amount of the high level spells referenced are Arcane. Perhaps my views are skewed because I tend to play Divine casters. Nothing says "awesome" like an all day Divine Might and/or Righteous Might.

[Runestar]

A few useful low lv spells would be slow and glitterdust. I find they continue to be useful when heightened, mainly because they target will save yet are not blocked by mind-immunity. I would gladly spend 7th or 8th lv slots preparing or casting heightened slow; it effectively neuters melee foes lacking pounce (ranged foes at least still have manyshot/greater manyshot), allowing your fighters to attack without fear of reprisal.

For instance, wail of the banshee might be more powerful in that it can potentially take down an entire army, but it can be countered by silence and death-immunity. As foes grow more complex and start fielding more defenses, you will find that it is sometimes the most simple and basic of spells which work best.


I was wondering what types of spells I should include because of their unique effects. Do you have any suggestions?

The goal is not to limit power, but change it.

For 7th lv spells, limited wish. It has a useful benefit, with a reasonable enough cost that will discourage spammage, yet not steep enough that people shun it altogether.

Any form of direct damage spell (complete mage has quite a few), since their effects tend to be based off a scaling version of fireball and won't warp the format.

[Jair Barik]

One thing that I'm seeing here is that a fair amount of the high level spells referenced are Arcane. Perhaps my views are skewed because I tend to play Divine casters. Nothing says "awesome" like an all day Divine Might and/or Righteous Might.

In part I suppose that would be because metamagic is more commonly applied to arcane spells than to divine ones. Divine casters can use divine metamagic instead and the wizards bonus feats encourage them to take metamagic. Also the different spell lists support wizards taking metamagic more than divine casters, the exception being extend spell/the other extension metamagic as clerics get lots of buff spells.

Lots of the other metamagics relate to offensive/damage spells and this is an area that clerics don't excell at (at least compared to arcane casters), particularly low level spells that are easier to apply metamagic too. Once clerics get to the point of being able to cast decent offensive spells it again comes to the state of 'I could prepare a meta magic enhanced spell, or I could just take a SoD which naturally has a higher saving throw'.

[Czin]

When I was a player (no, not that kind; get your head out of the gutter, I reserved that spot you know) I would reserve metamagicked spells for large numbers of very powerful foes. If I knew that I was going to face down an army of high hit dice demons with an ECL well above my level, then I would bring out as many metamagicked spells as I could and take down as many of them as I could then teleport me and the party away if possible. (My old DM really didn't allow for any of the cheese you could pull off with higher level spells. He had a knack for always granting wishes in the way that would be the most harmful for you for example, so I couldn't try that kind of stuff.) High level spells were reserved for singular opponents.

[Myth]

Metamagic helps for damage (orbs, rays, shivering touch, enervation - the usual suspects), buffing (chain spell, persistent spell), some shenannigans (ocular spell). That's why everyone cries against Incantatrixes - they can fill their slots with metamagicked orbs/enervations/rays of stupidity/shivering touches, abuse Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic, and still have Persisted buffs because they can apply them for free via Metamagic Effect.

However, no ammount of Twinned Repeated Maximized Orbs of Fire are equivalent to Time Stop or Foresight or Gate. There are some things metamagic can't buy. For everything else - well there's probably a ToB character or ubercharger to deal the damage.

[Jair Barik]

There is some amusing things you can do with metamagic though. Such as Invisible spell solid fog. If anyone casts true seeing they become incapable of seeing anything as opposed to being able to see through illusions (this is more a GM trick than useful for players though)

[Welknair]

For clerics and most other divine casters, Extend is the way to go. Double the duration all of all of your buffs? Dowant. If you can get it, the previously mentioned Persist Spell is also good. Cleric spells don't have the same destructive potential as Wizard ones do, so that may affect your metamagic choices...

Am I right to assume Cleric, or are you playing a Shugenja or something?

[Elric VIII]

For instance, wail of the banshee might be more powerful in that it can potentially take down an entire army, but it can be countered by silence and death-immunity. As foes grow more complex and start fielding more defenses, you will find that it is sometimes the most simple and basic of spells which work best.

*snip*

Any form of direct damage spell (complete mage has quite a few), since their effects tend to be based off a scaling version of fireball and won't warp the format.

The first part was what I was hoping to capitalize on. For the level caps, I figured that there was no harm in making the epic feat that doubles (I think) the level cap for damage dice in this system.


However, no ammount of Twinned Repeated Maximized Orbs of Fire are equivalent to Time Stop or Foresight or Gate. There are some things metamagic can't buy. For everything else - well there's probably a ToB character or ubercharger to deal the damage.

This is why I want to figure our some iconic/unique high level spells to give to the players. Although it might just be that this system isn't viable because it cuts down on versatility too much.


There is some amusing things you can do with metamagic though. Such as Invisible spell solid fog. If anyone casts true seeing they become incapable of seeing anything as opposed to being able to see through illusions (this is more a GM trick than useful for players though)

I like this.


For clerics and most other divine casters, Extend is the way to go. Double the duration all of all of your buffs? Dowant. If you can get it, the previously mentioned Persist Spell is also good. Cleric spells don't have the same destructive potential as Wizard ones do, so that may affect your metamagic choices...

Am I right to assume Cleric, or are you playing a Shugenja or something?

I gave Shugenja a shot once, I much prefer the ability to pick that one spell out of 500 that we need for this one day once in the entire campaign that is offered by the Cleric. I usually play a utility Cleric (preparing for as much as I can, leaving the killing to the others), so when I need raw power, it ends to be an easy metamagic persisted Divine Might or Consumptive Field. Plus, with such a large spell list I can use a wide range of spell trigger items without UMD. I plan on giving a Druid a shot as well.