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bokodasu
2011-01-28, 03:40 AM
I think the psionics system is great, and was thinking about replacing regular casting with it. Someone pointed me to spell points from UA, to which I said, hooray, someone has done all the converting for me already!

And then one of my players said hey, I want to use Alternative Source Spell. Oh, and Mystic Theurge, also Arcane Hierophant.

I haven't definitely said yes yet - please a) check my math and b) tell me if this is crazy.

At 6th level he plans on being Wizard1/Cleric3/MT2. That should give him effective CL of Wizard 3/Cleric 5, meaning 7 wizard points and 16 cleric points. Then let's say he has a 16 in int and wis; he'd get an extra 4 points in his wizard pool and 9 in his cleric pool, for a total of 11 and 25, and can cast 2nd-level wizard spells and 3rd-level cleric spells.

In the morning, while he spends his two hours prepping spells, he sets his daily spells known, picking 4/2/1 wizard spells and 5/3+1/2+1/1+1 cleric spells. (He does not get bonus slots for high int/wis because he's getting bonus spell points instead.)

During the day, he casts glitterdust three times, and burning hands once, spending the extra point to get 2d4 damage. Then he wants to cast Magic Missile. Would you say


He can't, because he would have needed to prepare it as one of his cleric spells known in the morning
He can, using 1 point from his cleric pool, but can't enhance it because his effective wizard CL is 2 and he'd have to use 3 points total to add an extra die of damage
He can, using 1 point from his cleric pool, and can enhance it by spending an additional 2 points (3 total)


I'm thinking it should be option 1, right? Which does seem to cut down on the brokenness a bit.

So, is this overpowered? (I mean, any more than a regular wizard/cleric would be.) Should I let him do it? What loopholes should I look out for?

stainboy
2011-01-28, 05:12 AM
Have you considered doing away with Mystic Theurge, putting all the character's spellpoints into the same pool, and letting all casting classes stack to determine caster level? That's how psionics does it.

One big thing to watch with spellpoints is a cleric giving the entire party every low level buff in the book. Buffs don't usually scale with level which makes them relatively cheap. Assume a 10th level cleric with 20 Wisdom buffs a 5-man party as follows:

Cleric: Protection from Evil, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Owl's Wisdom, Heroism
2 other melee: Protection from Evil, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Heroism
2 other casters: Protection from Evil, Bear's Endurance, Owl's Wisdom or equivalent

A Vancian cleric would be out of everything but his (probably worthless) domain spells. A spellpoint cleric would still have 51 spellpoints and most of his 3rd-5th level prepared spells free, leaving him with enough spellpoints and options to throw 5th level spells every round for an entire encounter.

Anyway, this problem isn't any worse with a cleric/wizard over a straight cleric. Don't know if that was what you were looking for.

bokodasu
2011-01-28, 12:07 PM
That's... probably ok, actually. Most of the +stat buffs should be taken care of by equipment at that point, I think, and the ones that aren't, I want them buffed. And this particular player is the one optimizer in a party of fighters, so as long as he's buffing, I'm happy.

The only reason I'd hesitate to dump MT is spells known; I do want him to be able to cast level-appropriate spells. But I've worked out all the math now and I think it should mostly be ok. (Maybe. I did teach him the value of the grease spell. I think I'm going to start giving all my monsters ranks in balance...)

Psyren
2011-01-28, 12:43 PM
Your math is fine:

Base Wizard Pool = Wiz 1 + MT 2 = Wiz 3 = 7.
Base Cleric Pool = Clr 3 + MT 2 = Clr 5 = 16.
Bonus points from Int (going to Wizard Pool) = [16 Int @ 2nd SL] = 4
Bonus points from Wis (going to Cleric Pool) = [16 Wis @ 3rd SL] = 9

Total Wizard Pool = 7 + 4 = 11
Total Cleric Pool = 16 + 9 = 25

Glitterdust 3x = 3 + 3 + 3 = 9
Burning Hands 1x, augmented 1x = 1+1 = 2
Total Wiz points spent = 11
Wizard Points remaining = 11 - 11 = 0

Now regarding Alternative Source Spell: the feat specifies you have to prepare the spell as divine. If he didn't, he's out of luck - he didn't prepare it that way, therefore he can't dip into his Cleric pool to power it. Simple as that. Spell Points do not change how you prepare spells - the only difference is that you only have to prepare one copy of a spell to be able to use it multiple times.)

RAW, the feat doesn't even do anything for spontaneous casters (unless they have Arcane Preparation or similar) but that doesn't apply to him anyway.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-28, 12:45 PM
By RAW, separate pools per each class. I don't consider this terribly important if you want to house rule it, though. One pool is easier to manage.

Psyren
2011-01-28, 12:50 PM
By RAW, separate pools per each class. I don't consider this terribly important if you want to house rule it, though. One pool is easier to manage.

The complicating factor is Alternative Source Spell. It should allow him to use his other pool, but only if he specially prepared the spell to take advantage of it. He can't juggle pools spontaneously.

Ernir
2011-01-28, 01:04 PM
I think the psionics system is great, and was thinking about replacing regular casting with it. Someone pointed me to spell points from UA, to which I said, hooray, someone has done all the converting for me already!

On the topic of the thread:
Don't think Alternative Source Spell would allow him to flip between his spell point pools.
Don't think it would be very problematic to allow it. :smalltongue:

More off-topic, but it is a warning in general - the Psionic system and the Spell Point system have some rather significant differences, especially when it comes to this exact issue (combining spell point/power point pools), Augments (the vancian spells really aren't made with this in mind), and metamagic/metapsionics. Something you should keep in mind before you think you have all the psionic awesome by switching to the UA Spell Point system. =/

Also, I'm promoting my own work here, but I'm homebrewing to fix this difference. (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=186&sid=93d6bb7f70a3352665daf0c94fd9917d) :smalltongue:
It's not finished enough for a high-level game (and I don't have the PrCs up, so it's not going to be ready in time for your game, I guess), but you may be interested in the project regardless.

ericgrau
2011-01-28, 02:34 PM
Cleric: Protection from Evil, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Owl's Wisdom, Heroism
2 other melee: Protection from Evil, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Heroism
2 other casters: Protection from Evil, Bear's Endurance, Owl's Wisdom or equivalent
Fixed that for you. "Hey bob, I hear some guy over there saying cryptic things in a strong voice, let's go investigate." Yeah, at most you get 1 or 2 minute per level buffs in on just one ally. But there are a ton of good 10 minute per level and hour per level low level buffs you don't have listed.

More on topic, I think the "you need to prepare it as a cleric spell to use cleric spell points" makes the most sense balance wise. Being able to spontaneously select which points apply to which class is a big power boost. If you don't mind boosting him then go ahead, otherwise don't.

Likewise something else to consider: unearthed arcana spell points are stronger than not using spell points because they give the wizard all the combat versatility of a sorcerer with no drawback. If you don't mind beefing up casters then fine, otherwise you gotta bring things back down to par somehow.

stainboy
2011-01-29, 07:56 AM
Most of the augments for spells are pretty intuitive.

-For everything but range, duration, and caster level checks, you replace caster level with spellpoints spent. Fireball does 1d6 per point spent rather than 1d6 per level and so on.

-(optional) A spell's save DC goes up by 1 for every 2 points spent to augment it, like most psionic powers. A 5d6 fireball has DC13+Int, a 10d6 fireball has DC15+Int.

-(optional) If the spell has a psionic version that doesn't seriously nerf it, you use that instead. Daze has an augment because it works like Psionic Daze.

You could make a stronger system by doing more work, collapsing Cure X Wounds into one augmented spell or removing scaling caps or something, but you run the risk of confusing your players.


About the buff-spamming thing: like you said it's not really a big game-breaking problem, just something to watch out for. Compare to artificers. Throwing Bane on a weapon with a 2nd level spell is stupidly overpowered but it doesn't change the feel of the game much.

E: @Ericgrau, what did I miss? Aid I guess, but that's 1m/level. I skipped Barkskin because it's Plant domain only and I skipped Resist Elements because I already have one situational spell. Only other low level 10m/level cleric spell I can think of is Heroism, and I got that one.