Soulknife, Eat Your Heart Out-[Bladesworn Feats, 3.5, PEACH]

[Pyromancer999]

Background- This is basically what we use in my games instead of Soulknives

Background

We all know them. That one guy who has that one kind of weapon that's the only one he'll fight with, whether it be daggers, swords, axes, whatever. However, some become devoted to one specific weapon to the point of it becoming intricately tied to their soul, gaining power from this innate connection. These are the Bladesworn.

Bladebound[Bladesworn]
Benefit: Choose one kind of weapon that you are proficient with. As a move action, you may manifest a unique version of this kind of weapon that acts as an embodiment of your fighting spirit. Should the weapon ever leave your hands for more than 1 round, it disappears, but may be re-manifested with another move action. Additionally, you gain a small pool of Blade Points to enhance your blade with, gaining 1 point + 1 point per two Bladesworn feats you have. Your pool of Blade Points refreshes at the start of every day and at the start of each encounter, and may be allocated between your Bladesworn weapon, and yourself as a swift action. So long as you have at least one Blade Point invested in your Bladesworn weapon, it is treated as a magic weapon.
Special: The Bladesworn is devoted to his Bladesworn weapon. Whenever possible, he must use his Bladesworn weapon in combat, only using another weapon when such a weapon would offer an obviously greater benefit in combat against a particular foe.

Blade's Impact[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound, 3rd level
Benefit: At the start of each encounter, You may invest Blade Points to gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with your Bladesworn weapon equal to the number of Blade Points invested.

Blade's Edge[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound, Blade's Impact, 6th level
Benefit: The critical range for your Bladesworn weapon increases by 1 per three Bladesworn feats you have.

Soul Edge[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound, Blade's Impact, Essentia Pool of at least 2, 9th level
Benefit: As the the blade is an extension of your soul, you may invest essentia in it as though it were a soulmeld, increasing the blade's critical range for every two essentia you invest in it.

Quick Draw[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound
Benefit: The action needed to manifest your Bladesworn weapon becomes a swift action.
Special: You may select this feat again allow yourself to manifest your Bladesworn weapon as a free action.

Sudden Blow[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound, Quick Draw, 6th level
Benefit: Once per day per two Bladesworn feats you possess, you may manifest your Bladesworn weapon as part of an attack, providing you are not wielding any other weapons. This suprises the attacked party so much that it must make a Reflex save(DC 10 + twice the number of Bladesworn feats you have) or be treated as flat-footed for the attack.

Path of Destruction[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound, any two other Bladesworn feats
Benefit: Once per day per three Bladesworn feats you have, you may, as a full-round action, carve a Path of Destruction. You may move up to your speed, attacking any opponenets in adjacent squares along the way. This does not provoke actions of opportunity, and the Bladesworn weapon gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with these attacks for each two opponents hit by an attack this way.

Enhance The Blade[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound, 3rd level
Benefit: As a move action, you may concentrate and focus on your Bladesworn weapon in order to improve your next attack. During this action, you may choose to invest Blade Points into your Bladesworn weapon, granting +1d8 per Blade Point to your next attack. Once this attack has been made, you regain the Blade Points that were spent.

Imbue The Blade[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound, Enhance The Blade, 6th level
Benefit: You learn how to use Blade Points in order to enhance your Bladesworn Weapon. At the start of each encounter as a move action, by using Blade Points, the Bladesworn may enhance his Bladesworn weapon with any of the enhancements available to Soulknives. The Bladesworn expends one Blade Point per +1 bonus value of the enhancement.

Creature of the Blade[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound, Enhance The Blade, Imbue The Blade, 9th level
Benefit: The spirit of your Bladesworn Weapon enhances you just as you enhance it. At the start of each encounter, you may expend Blade Points to grant yourself the benefits of a template, expending 1 Blade Point per +1 LA of the template. You may not expend more Blade Points on yourself than you have on your blade. This effect lasts for 1 round per Bladesworn feat you have.

Blade's Soul[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound, Any three Bladesworn feats, 12th level
Benefits: You become proficient with your Bladesworn weapon to the point of mastery. This grants multiple benefits. Firstly, you always gain a bonus to attack and damage rolls with your Bladesworn weapon equal to 1/2 the number of Bladesworn feats you possess. Secondly, once per day per two Bladesworn feats you possess, you may instead manifest your weapon as a creature. Treat this as an Eidolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155181) with 10 binding points per Blade Point you invest in your Bladesworn weapon. his effect lasts 1 round per Bladesworn level, with the Blade disappearing afterwards, and the Blade Points invested this way regain. Thirdly, once per day for a number of rounds per Bladesworn feat you possess, you may double the number of Blade Points you have.

[Psyborg]

Creature of the Blade and Blade's Soul seem...likely to slow down play significantly. Applying templates and designing eidolons are not fast, easy, or simple things to do on-the-fly.

Other than that, I like it. I'd consider opening Imbue the Blade up to any weapon enhancement, rather than just the Soulknife list, but that's probably just me.

Oh, and it needs a way to mimic or become special materials, for damage reduction purposes. Probably just another feat.

[Pyromancer999]

Creature of the Blade and Blade's Soul seem...likely to slow down play significantly. Applying templates and designing eidolons are not fast, easy, or simple things to do on-the-fly.

Normally, it would. However, the templates applied will only be +1 LA usually, or +2 at the highest levels, so, in most cases there won't be that much stuff to consider. Also, yes, it does take time to design an eidolon, so I'd have any player of mine make an eidolon then just summon that.


Other than that, I like it. I'd consider opening Imbue the Blade up to any weapon enhancement, rather than just the Soulknife list, but that's probably just me.

I'd do that, but then a huge amount of time would be consumed by trying to decide what the enhancement bonus equivalents of dozens of weapon enhancements are/


Oh, and it needs a way to mimic or become special materials, for damage reduction purposes. Probably just another feat.
How about this:

Mutable Blade
Prerequisites: Bladebound, 6th level
Benefit: You may expend 1 Blade Point in order for your Bladesworn Weapon to mimic one specific material for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction.

That good?

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Quick Draw[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound
Benefit: The action needed to manifest your Bladesworn weapon becomes a standard action.
Special: You may select this feat again allow yourself to manifest your Bladesworn weapon as a free action.

So you take the feat once to slow you from move - standard, then again to go from standard - Free? And by free, do you mean swift?


Creature of the Blade[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound, Enhance The Blade, Imbue The Blade, 9th level
Benefit: The spirit of your Bladesworn Weapon enhances you just as you enhance it. At the start of each encounter, you may expend Blade Points to grant yourself the benefits of a template, expending 1 Blade Point per +1 LA of the template. You may not expend more Blade Points on yourself than you have on your blade. This effect lasts for 1 round per Bladesworn feat you have.

I'm not sure I like this, stuff like the Saint is very powerful for it's LA, and has very hard fluff based pre-reqs that you can just ignore. Seems like a good ability though.



Blade's Soul[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound, Any three Bladesworn feats, 12th level
Benefits: You become proficient with your Bladesworn weapon to the point of mastery. This grants multiple benefits. Firstly, you always gain a bonus to attack and damage rolls with your Bladesworn weapon equal to 1/2 the number of Bladesworn feats you possess. Secondly, once per day per two Bladesworn feats you possess, you may instead manifest your weapon as a creature. Treat this as an Eidolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155181) with 10 binding points per Blade Point you invest in your Bladesworn weapon. his effect lasts 1 round per Bladesworn level, with the Blade disappearing afterwards, and the Blade Points invested this way regain. Thirdly, once per day for a number of rounds per Bladesworn feat you possess, you may double the number of Blade Points you have.

So with that third ability, can you double the number of Blade points you have, then keep doing that forever, doubling them each time? Maybe say they don't stack (but that may be me being nitpicky).

[Pyromancer999]

So you take the feat once to slow you from move - standard, then again to go from standard - Free? And by free, do you mean swift?

No, I mean a free action. This is because, as I said, this replaces the Soulknife. Most characters won't be able to take it for a free action until 6th, which is fair, as Soulknives get Free Draw(which allows them to manifest their Soulknife as a free action) at 5th.


I'm not sure I like this, stuff like the Saint is very powerful for it's LA, and has very hard fluff based pre-reqs that you can just ignore. Seems like a good ability though.

I may be wrong, but I don't remember the Saint having an LA of +1 or +2. May have to double-check that, though.


So with that third ability, can you double the number of Blade points you have, then keep doing that forever, doubling them each time? Maybe say they don't stack (but that may be me being nitpicky).
It's for a number of rounds per day. It's not permanent.

[Kobold-Bard]

No, I mean a free action. This is because, as I said, this replaces the Soulknife. Most characters won't be able to take it for a free action until 6th, which is fair, as Soulknives get Free Draw(which allows them to manifest their Soulknife as a free action) at 5th.

Still doesn't explain why taking it once increases the time it takes from a move action to a standard action, then taking it a gain drops it back down to a free action.


I may be wrong, but I don't remember the Saint having an LA of +1 or +2. May have to double-check that, though.

It's +2, though it's not a bad ability because of one OP template.


It's for a number of rounds per day. It's not permanent.

True, but by using the ability you have double points. This gives you twice as many uses of it, so you can keep using it to get more uses and rounds that it lasts for if you don't specify that they don't stack.

[Pyromancer999]

Still doesn't explain why taking it once increases the time it takes from a move action to a standard action, then taking it a gain drops it back down to a free action.

Okay, I can see your point there.


It's +2, though it's not a bad ability because of one OP template.

True. Also, most DMs would increase the LA of it, I'd think.


True, but by using the ability you have double points. This gives you twice as many uses of it, so you can keep using it to get more uses and rounds that it lasts for if you don't specify that they don't stack.
.....You can't get more uses of the doubling of the Blade Points. It's a 1/day ability. Which does not get affected by the number of Blade Points you have.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

.....You can't get more uses of the doubling of the Blade Points. It's a 1/day ability. Which does not get affected by the number of Blade Points you have.

ARGLEFLABEQNDWEKILSMADRCJW!!!! :furious:

I totally misread the ability as usable 1/point each day.

[Pyromancer999]

I totally misread the ability as usable 1/point each day.

Well, that's a bit understandable, as most previous feats relied upon usage of Blade Points to activate. So, no biggie.

[Jallorn]

Quick Draw[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound
Benefit: The action needed to manifest your Bladesworn weapon becomes a standard action.
Special: You may select this feat again allow yourself to manifest your Bladesworn weapon as a free action.

This is supposed to say Swift Action, yes?

[Pyromancer999]

This is supposed to say Swift Action, yes?

Correct. Thought I had corrected that. Thanks for noticing.

[silphael]

The blade points you invest at the beginning of an encounter... do you get them back at the end of it? Because as written, you may spend a large part of your BP to get a boosted weapon something like once or twice per day...

[Pyromancer999]

The blade points you invest at the beginning of an encounter... do you get them back at the end of it? Because as written, you may spend a large part of your BP to get a boosted weapon something like once or twice per day...



Bladebound[Bladesworn]
Benefit: Choose one kind of weapon that you are proficient with. As a move action, you may manifest a unique version of this kind of weapon that acts as an embodiment of your fighting spirit. Should the weapon ever leave your hands for more than 1 round, it disappears, but may be re-manifested with another move action. Additionally, you gain a small pool of Blade Points to enhance your blade with, gaining 1 point + 1 point per two Bladesworn feats you have. Your pool of Blade Points refreshes at the start of every day and at the start of each encounter.
Special: The Bladesworn is devoted to his Bladesworn weapon. Whenever possible, he must use his Bladesworn weapon in combat, only using another weapon when such a weapon would offer an obviously greater benefit in combat against a particular foe.


Does this help answer your question?

[hierophant]

Sudden Blow[Bladesworn]
Prerequisites: Bladebound, Quick Draw, 6th level
Benefit: Once per day per two Bladesworn feats you possess, you may manifest your Bladesworn weapon as part of an attack, providing you are not wielding any other weapons. This suprises the attacked party so much that it must make a Reflex save or be treated as flat-footed for the attack.

Reflex save with a DC of...?
Pretty cool feat chain. I'd be tempted to make them available as fighter bonus feats, though.

[Pyromancer999]

Reflex save with a DC of...?

Thanks for noticing. Added in DC equal to 10 + number of Bladesworn feats you have.



Pretty cool feat chain. I'd be tempted to make them available as fighter bonus feats, though.

They'd make good Fighter Bonus feats, I suppose. Still, I know some people who would rule them too supernatural. In the end, however, I say they count as Fighter Bonus feats, but as it's really up to the DM, I'm sort of hesitant to mark it as such.

[Zerasen]

Sudden blow is pretty weak no? The DC is pretty low (21 highest at epic-ish levels to get every one of these feats) for an affect that's not all that strong. They're only flatfooted for the one attack after all. And in addition it can only be used a certain number of times per day (10 at best I think).

I'd ditch the save. Sure it has spamming capacity with sneak attack, but that's what the limited times per day are for, right? Then it'd just be a cool trick to let the rogue in question to sneak in some extra damage in the midst of combat. Or alternatively drop the limited uses, but that seems less elegant and to not follow precedent.

Other than that, this is extremely awesome. I love the Soulknife concept and now I can actually play it without being embarrassed for my character! :smallbiggrin:

[Pyromancer999]

Sudden blow is pretty weak no? The DC is pretty low (21 highest at epic-ish levels to get every one of these feats) for an affect that's not all that strong. They're only flatfooted for the one attack after all. And in addition it can only be used a certain number of times per day (10 at best I think).

I'd ditch the save. Sure it has spamming capacity with sneak attack, but that's what the limited times per day are for, right? Then it'd just be a cool trick to let the rogue in question to sneak in some extra damage in the midst of combat. Or alternatively drop the limited uses, but that seems less elegant and to not follow precedent.

What if uses per day changed to uses per encounter? Might that be a little better?



Other than that, this is extremely awesome. I love the Soulknife concept and now I can actually play it without being embarrassed for my character! :smallbiggrin:

Thanks. That's sort of what I was going for with this.

[Qwertystop]

So, you've managed to replace a base class with a feat chain. And the feat chain is actually better than the class. And is not unbalanced.

WOW soulknife is bad.

[Zerasen]

What if uses per day changed to uses per encounter? Might that be a little better?


Although that would better to an extent, the save DC is still really low... Can you explain your reservations to me so I can better understand where you're coming from? :smallconfused:

[JerichoPenumbra]

First off, I would like to say that in the short amount of time I have been aware of your homebrew, I have become a big fan.

Questions:
1) Can you take Bladebound multiple times for different weapons? (Like axe and dagger?)
2) Can you take Bladebound for ranged weapons?
3) If so, do you need to provide your own ammunition for the ranged weapon?

I ask because one of the first things I thought of when I saw this was a quasi-Megaman character.

[Deviston]

So, you've managed to replace a base class with a feat chain. And the feat chain is actually better than the class. And is not unbalanced.

WOW soulknife is bad.

This. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100035)

And this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441)

[Milo v3]

This. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100035)

And this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441)

So Soulknife sucks for those who can't use incarnum.

[Deviston]

So for undead and constructs?

Sure.

[Milo v3]

So for undead and constructs?

Sure.

I meant people who lack the books for Incarnum.

[Deviston]

{{scrubbed}}

[Milo v3]

{{scrubbed}}

Me.

Also I cannot access that site because of Blocks on my laptop.

[Deviston]

{{scrubbed}}

Also, $10 would solve your problem. (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=incarnum&_sop=15)

[Pyromancer999]

@Deviston, please do not post links to what appears to be pirated documents(except for the last link, which appears to be okay), as I believe there are rules against that on the website, and could end with this thread being locked, which I would rather it not be, and I do value feedback on all my work, no matter when it is given.

Now, getting back on track.......


First off, I would like to say that in the short amount of time I have been aware of your homebrew, I have become a big fan.

Thanks. Good to know when someone enjoys my homebrew.


Questions:
1) Can you take Bladebound multiple times for different weapons? (Like axe and dagger?)


Yes, you can.


2) Can you take Bladebound for ranged weapons?


Most certainly yes.


3) If so, do you need to provide your own ammunition for the ranged weapon?

Hmmmm....well, as it is, you would have to supply your own ammunition, which should be taken care of. Perhaps a certain amount of ammunition appears with the weapon when summoned(probably would be number of Bladesworn feats you have + 1 or 2), which can be refreshed as a swift action would be good?

[Deviston]

My concern with this line of feats is the fact that a melee character would never NOT want to take at least the first. Always having a weapon nearly no matter what is stronk. It makes me think of the Fighter who wears a necklace of Anti-magic field. You should never NOT opt for it.

There are tons of other and better feat chains (which is the normal arguement) to follow, but if I were a melee character and theses existed, I would take the base feat (at least) every time. It's too valuable without having to level dip. And then combing this with a class like the soul knife itself (or as I would do the war soul or soulblade) is strong aswell.

This makes me think of Ascenstral Relic from the Book of Holygoodness or what not where VoP comes from.

Find some form of limit to the threat range increases. As is, it's very stronk.
Also, annotate that Path of Destruction requires you to only use your Bladebound weapon, AND is only in a straight line.

Cheese to explain why the above are issues.

Level 12 Human Soulborn
1st lvl feat – Bladebound
Human feat – Quick Draw (Bladesworn)
3rd lvl feat – Blade’s Impact
6th lvl feat – Blade’s Edge
9th lvl feat – Soul Edge
12th lvl feat – Path of Destruction

Bladebound SPECIAL note: All fluff, no mechanical rules here. Yeeessss…. Very well then….

Situation 1: He has selected the Scimitar as his weapon. Bladebound scimitar’s threat range has been increased from 18-20 x2 to 16-20 x2 and with invested essentia (and Expanded Essentia capacity or the one for feats whichever applies) increases it further to 12-20 x2. Now, with various speed booster feats, expeditious retreat, and whatever else I can come up with to max speed at this point, the Soulborn prepares to make his Path of Destruction. Let’s say his speed is 100. Easily higher but we will sit with that. He moves his move speed, to target the 15 enemies in front of him. They are all within a 30 foot range and standing randomly in the area. Luckily, since the feat does not state he must move in a STRAIGHT LINE, he is able to attack each and every one of the baddies (since the entire move won’t take him over 100 move speed) and provoke zero attacks of op, all the while threatening on a 12-20 x2.

Situation 2: He now draws his +5 Greatsword of Craziness since he didn’t crit much. Or some combination of cool enchantments that benefits a person only hitting someone once. Like clouting! Oh that’s fun! Anyhow, he activates Path of Destruction, luckily since the feat doesn’t stipulate that he must use his feat generated weapon…. INCOMING GREATSWORD CRAZINESS! And the villains are not only hewn in twain! But their bits go a-flying! Path of Destruction makes this feat chain the best ever seen. Better than many class features. Essentially a single attack AOE against everyone within a certain path of travel limit, and a safe destination point.

[Pyromancer999]

My concern with this line of feats is the fact that a melee character would never NOT want to take at least the first. Always having a weapon nearly no matter what is stronk. It makes me think of the Fighter who wears a necklace of Anti-magic field. You should never NOT opt for it.

How is that a bad thing?


There are tons of other and better feat chains (which is the normal arguement) to follow, but if I were a melee character and theses existed, I would take the base feat (at least) every time. It's too valuable without having to level dip. And then combing this with a class like the soul knife itself (or as I would do the war soul or soulblade) is strong aswell.

Can't really see it working with other classes, excepting through incarnum through Soul Edge, which is fine, as I believe there is a limit on how much essentia you can invest in any one thing anyways, which caps at around 6 essentia at around 20th, if I remember right.


This makes me think of Ascenstral Relic from the Book of Holygoodness or what not where VoP comes from.

Not sure what you mean here. And are you talking about the Book of Exalted Deeds?


Find some form of limit to the threat range increases. As is, it's very stronk.
Also, annotate that Path of Destruction requires you to only use your Bladebound weapon, AND is only in a straight line.

Hmmmm...Threat ranges are mostly fine, and as for Path of Destruction, limiting it to the Bladesworn weapon you chose should be fine, although I'd rather it not be a straight line, as it's more fun that way. It's only a 1/day per three Bladesworn feats anyways, so I'd say if a person cares enough to invest feat slots on enough Bladesworn feats to do it a couple of times per day, they should get that much.

[Garryl]

This feat chain seems weak. The resulting weapon is worse than what you can buy (even without breaking the bank), and cash is almost always cheaper than feats. The critical threat range feats give it potential as for combos as part of an Incarnum build, but the feats needed to activate even that make such combos prohibitively difficult.
The above assume that the various abilities that ask you to invest points once per encounter only last until the end of the encounter, as seems to be the intent. Since many of the feats don't specify a duration, the effect seems to have no limit as written, however, which makes it somewhat more viable.

Bladebound weapons never get to affect incorporeal creatures or even bypass DR/magic. Requiring a move action to manifest is already a disadvantage over normal weapons, which can be drawn as a move action or with no action as part of a move action made to move. Spending another feat to do so as a swift action is still worse than spending a feat on Quick Draw (the one in the PHB) to draw weapons as free actions.

Blade's Impact appears to be a numerical replacement for the enhancement bonus a weapon would normally get. This (along with the a larger pool of Blade Points) should be baseline. As it stands, you don't get enough Blade Points for even this to keep up, let alone if you want to spend them on any other Bladesworn feats.

At present, Blade's Edge and Soul Edge are the only parts of this feat chain that are attractive. They have the potential for very large critical threat ranges, which can make some useful combos. However, most critical combos are feat intensive, which makes it very difficult to pull off. The Incarnum connection feels a bit out of the blue for me, but I'll buy it.

The save DC on Sudden Blow is very low, as Zarasen mentioned. The effect itself is inferior to the Blurstriking weapon property (+2 equivalent), which lets you treat an opponent as flat-footed on the first attack per round for 10 rounds per day, no save.

Path of Destruction is interesting, but its very few uses per day cripple it. When you can use it, the ability itself is slightly better than a certain Desert Wind maneuver whose name escapes me at the moment (no bonus on attack and damage rolls, movement still provokes AoOs but can be negated with Tumble), though still not enough to be worth 4 feats.

Enhance the Blade may be worthwhile at low to mid levels, although using Blade's Edge and Power Attack instead gives a 3:1 bonus to damage on all attacks instead of 4.5:1 on a single attack and doesn't cost any actions, so this will lose a lot of value very quickly, likely becoming eclipsed as soon as you can make multiple attacks on a full attack. I'm not sure about the wording, but it might have a good use to effectively double your blade points (invest for an attack, spend the points refreshed at the start of an encounter, then get back and use the points you had stored in the blade on your first attack). I doubt that's intended, though.

Imbue the Blade asks for a move action at the beginning of each encounter, which is a sure-fire way to lose a battle. Soulknife weapon properties are also notoriously limited and are generally on the weak side.

I don't quite get the fluff connection between making a mind blade and turning yourself into a half-dragon or whatever, but I'll buy it. This feat is the hardest to evaluate due to the varying nature of templates. you can only (effectively) spend up to half your Blade Points on this, so you'll generally be limited to LA +1 and LA +2 templates. You do, however, get all of the LA +0 templates you want for free for the first [feats] rounds per encounter.

I'm not familiar with Eidolons, so I can't evaluate Blade's Soul at all.

[Deviston]

How is that bad? Because that is testament to something being stronger than it should be.

And yes i was talking about th eBook of Exalted Deeds. The name escaped me at the time. My point was that there is a feat that "grants you a magic item". Mind you it can still be taken from you, and money must be invested into it, but I still feel a precedence has been made. But I guess they are so far different I guess one could ignore it really.

12-20 is ok?! What about tossing it on a Scythe and having it be a 14-20 x4 and then as you gain a few more levels make it 13-20 x4. That's ok????

Keep this in your mind, you say all adjacent squares on the Path of Destruction. Lets put unlimited creeps in a 15 foot wide and 105 foot long line. And this is only at 100 speed btw. If he uses Path of Destruction, he can make attacks on 40 targets. Even more if they aren't in a line and he can hit on those diagonal threat ranges. Even MORE if he has a reach weapon with the ability to attack adjacent squares.... Wait nevermind. His weapon being reach or not doesn't matter, with a reach weapon or a even a bow, he only hits things in adjacent squares, not threatened squares... wait I'm not sure how that works out either. Please do tell.

Mind you this is only by feats. So, 40 targets, dealing 2d4 each (plus Strx 1.5, plus whatever else he can get in) at 13-20 x4.... and this is balanced and ok?

Ooooh, I forgot about the bonus to damage for every two hit. target 3/4 takes a bonus 1, T5/6 +2, T7/8 +3, T9/10 +4, T11/12 +5, T13/14 +6, T15/16 +7, T17/18 +8, T19/20 +9, T21/22 +10, T23/24 +11, T25/26 +12, T27/28 +13, T29/30 +14, T31/32 +15, T33/34 +16, T35/36 +17, T37/38 +18 and ending with Targets 39 and 40 taking a bonus 19 damage each. Let us tally and total this all up as if he hit all of these attacks, just for fun. Let's also just goof around and say he has a Strength score of 18, should be low at that level but we'll stick with it.

EDIT AFTER FINALLY POSTING AND REREADING:: Whoa... my mistake... expect to hit every single attack except the rolls of 1. Which if you went by numbers you would hit anyway... the bonus to every 2 targets hit is to damage rolls AND attack rolls. Let's toss 1 Fighter level instead of full Soulborn and take power attack, after you get up to about +10, knock that off your Attack Roll for some bonus damage, which will of course bump your crits by an additional 40 damage per. But of course... this is balanced.

Average dice rolls at 4 damage each, STR x 1.5 for 6 damage per attack. Let me do some math..... 400 damage just from weapon + Strength, and an additional 380 from the bonus damage of the feat. That's a total of 780 damage, useable a few times a day, with his 13-20 x4 weapon making ZERO crits. Seeing as how the number we are dealing with is 40, let's say he hits 16 of those as crits.... 640 crit damage + 240 normal for a total of 880 from weapon and Strength.

1260 average damage output in one round, usable a few times per day, with no resource expended. You know what, never mind. Leave the feats as they are. If I can hide my own posts, and convince my DM these feats are balanced, I'll never wonder about what feats to pick ever again lmao!

[Pyromancer999]

The above assume that the various abilities that ask you to invest points once per encounter only last until the end of the encounter, as seems to be the intent. Since many of the feats don't specify a duration, the effect seems to have no limit as written, however, which makes it somewhat more viable.

Well, they are intended to last until the end of the encounter. Perhaps I should change the wording.


Bladebound weapons never get to affect incorporeal creatures or even bypass DR/magic. Requiring a move action to manifest is already a disadvantage over normal weapons, which can be drawn as a move action or with no action as part of a move action made to move. Spending another feat to do so as a swift action is still worse than spending a feat on Quick Draw (the one in the PHB) to draw weapons as free actions.

Hmmm....valid points, although Ghost Touch can be replicated through Imbue the Blade, although perhaps such weapons should be listed as penetrating DR/magic. Just got do figure out the place to put it, as it might not fit well with the first feat, although I can't be sure of that. I've been thinking that perhaps I should change the default action to manifest the weapon as a swift action, as well as a swift action to allocate Blade Points to Bladesworn feats. Thoughts?


Blade's Impact appears to be a numerical replacement for the enhancement bonus a weapon would normally get. This (along with the a larger pool of Blade Points) should be baseline. As it stands, you don't get enough Blade Points for even this to keep up, let alone if you want to spend them on any other Bladesworn feats.

The weapon gains the enhancement for each point invested in the weapon, not the feat. So as long as Blade Points are invested in it, it gets the enhancement from Blade's Impact. My apologies if that was not clear.


The save DC on Sudden Blow is very low, as Zarasen mentioned. The effect itself is inferior to the Blurstriking weapon property (+2 equivalent), which lets you treat an opponent as flat-footed on the first attack per round for 10 rounds per day, no save.

True. That feat does need to be changed. I've been thinking about changing the uses to per encounter, as well as either changing the DC to either 15 + number of Bladesworn feats, or to 10 + 2 per Bladesworn feat you have.


Path of Destruction is interesting, but its very few uses per day cripple it. When you can use it, the ability itself is slightly better than a certain Desert Wind maneuver whose name escapes me at the moment (no bonus on attack and damage rolls, movement still provokes AoOs but can be negated with Tumble), though still not enough to be worth 4 feats.

Maybe that could also be changed to uses per encounter? Although I'd be slightly hesitant to do so, I could be convinced if that would be balanced.


Enhance the Blade may be worthwhile at low to mid levels, although using Blade's Edge and Power Attack instead gives a 3:1 bonus to damage on all attacks instead of 4.5:1 on a single attack and doesn't cost any actions, so this will lose a lot of value very quickly, likely becoming eclipsed as soon as you can make multiple attacks on a full attack. I'm not sure about the wording, but it might have a good use to effectively double your blade points (invest for an attack, spend the points refreshed at the start of an encounter, then get back and use the points you had stored in the blade on your first attack). I doubt that's intended, though.

Not entirely sure of the problem here. Could you clarify?


Imbue the Blade asks for a move action at the beginning of each encounter, which is a sure-fire way to lose a battle. Soulknife weapon properties are also notoriously limited and are generally on the weak side.

Yeah, as I said, I'm thinking of having stuff changed so you can allocate Blade Points to whatever effect as a swift action at the start of each encounter.


I don't quite get the fluff connection between making a mind blade and turning yourself into a half-dragon or whatever, but I'll buy it. This feat is the hardest to evaluate due to the varying nature of templates. you can only (effectively) spend up to half your Blade Points on this, so you'll generally be limited to LA +1 and LA +2 templates. You do, however, get all of the LA +0 templates you want for free for the first [feats] rounds per encounter.

It's more of a manga-type thing. Being infused with the spirit of the blade and whatnot. Plus it's cool. :smallbiggrin:

As for the LA +0 stuff, that should be fine.


I'm not familiar with Eidolons, so I can't evaluate Blade's Soul at all.

There's a link to the piece of homebrew that makes use of it within the feats. Note that it is different from the Eidolon of the Summoner class from Pathfinder, in case you've seen that.



*snip*


I.....can't read this. It appears to be interspersed with snippets of past comments, and doesn't really have structure. If it were to be formatted, I could probably respond to this better.

The only thing I managed to make out is the example of 40 opponents. Never have I seen or heard of any DM putting their players against such a number of creatures, with the maximum I've heard of being 10. It seems to be a bit unrealistic example of an encounter, although if one were to be put against such an extreme number of opponents, I'd be fine with that, were it to even occur, which I doubt would be often if that were the case.

[Garryl]

Well, they are intended to last until the end of the encounter. Perhaps I should change the wording.

Hmmm....valid points, although Ghost Touch can be replicated through Imbue the Blade, although perhaps such weapons should be listed as penetrating DR/magic. Just got do figure out the place to put it, as it might not fit well with the first feat, although I can't be sure of that. I've been thinking that perhaps I should change the default action to manifest the weapon as a swift action, as well as a swift action to allocate Blade Points to Bladesworn feats. Thoughts?


If you just change the bonus from Blade's Impact to an enhancement bonus instead of untyped, that should take care of the DR/Magic and incorporeality issue nicely.



The weapon gains the enhancement for each point invested in the weapon, not the feat. So as long as Blade Points are invested in it, it gets the enhancement from Blade's Impact. My apologies if that was not clear.


So, the points are invested entirely in the weapon (barring Creature of the Bladesworn, which invests them into you, and Imbue the Blade, which appears to spend them), which then grant the full benefit for all of the various feats that ask you to invest Blade Points? That makes a lot more sense, and makes things work a lot better. I'd recommend spelling out explicitly in the Bladesworn feat how this works, including when and how you invest points.

"You have a pool of Blade Points containing 1 point + 1 per 2 Bladesworn feats you possess. At the beginning of each day and again at the beginning of each encounter, these points refresh, restoring any lost Blade Points and allowing you to reassign them amongst your Bladesworn weapon, you Blade Pool, and any other Blade Point receptacles you may possess (this takes no action on your part). Many Bladesworn feats grant additional bonuses based on the number of Blade Points invested in your Bladesworn weapon."



True. That feat does need to be changed. I've been thinking about changing the uses to per encounter, as well as either changing the DC to either 15 + number of Bladesworn feats, or to 10 + 2 per Bladesworn feat you have.


Standard save DCs are 10 + 1/2 character level (or HD or class level or other equivalent) + an ability modifier. Observe the Stunning Fist feat, for example. For this effect, however, I would recommend removing the save entirely. Rendering an opponent flat-footed for a single attack is a very minor effect. In most cases where it does anything, it's only 2-3 points of AC lost. Rogues appreciate it, but even so it's still not a reliable method of attaining Sneak Attack (Uncanny Dodge and immunity to critical hits still prevent it).





Enhance the Blade may be worthwhile at low to mid levels, although using Blade's Edge and Power Attack instead gives a 3:1 bonus to damage on all attacks instead of 4.5:1 on a single attack and doesn't cost any actions, so this will lose a lot of value very quickly, likely becoming eclipsed as soon as you can make multiple attacks on a full attack. I'm not sure about the wording, but it might have a good use to effectively double your blade points (invest for an attack, spend the points refreshed at the start of an encounter, then get back and use the points you had stored in the blade on your first attack). I doubt that's intended, though.


Not entirely sure of the problem here. Could you clarify?


Mostly just analyzing it for myself. There are two issues there, although part or all of them may be incorrect if I understand your other comments correctly. However, as written, the feat only grants bonus damage for the Blade Points you invest as part of the move action to charge the weapon, which means your other attacks won't benefit from those points for Blade Impact or Enhance the Blade.

1) Competing with both move/full-round actions and with Blade's Impact. Since the points in the blade apply to all feats equally, the Blade's Impact issue is a non-issue. The loss of your move actions, however, are significant. At low levels, when you have only a single attack (BaB < 6), spending a move action for extra damage is a very reasonable trade. At higher levels, however, it falls behind the additional damage from a second (or third or fourth) attack in a full-attack. With 4 Bladesworn feats, you still only add 3d8 damage, average 13.5, whereas an extra attack would easily deal more damage (2d6 greatsword + 6 for 18 Strength + 3 Blade Impact = 16 average as a bare minimum, and by level 6 you should be doing much more).

2) I misunderstood how the points worked. I thought you spent them, then got them back each encounter, except with Enhance the Blade which gave back those points once you made your attack. But the way it works as you've explained it to me isn't compatible with what I thought, so never mind.

I'll reiterate that these feats really feel weak to me. They're only useful if you take multiples in the chain (barring niche situations, Bladebound is just a mundane, unenchantable, non-masterwork weapon, and it takes at least 4 feats to even approximate a weapon you can buy with level-appropriate cash). Feats are a rare and valuable resource. The average character gets only 7 from level 1 to 20 (10 with flaws and Human). There are far more than that many worthwhile feats to take once you step outside of Core, vastly more so once you include homebrew. Any new feats don't need to be as good as the best of them, but they do need to be on the same scale.

[Deviston]

I.....can't read this. It appears to be interspersed with snippets of past comments, and doesn't really have structure. If it were to be formatted, I could probably respond to this better.

The only thing I managed to make out is the example of 40 opponents. Never have I seen or heard of any DM putting their players against such a number of creatures, with the maximum I've heard of being 10. It seems to be a bit unrealistic example of an encounter, although if one were to be put against such an extreme number of opponents, I'd be fine with that, were it to even occur, which I doubt would be often if that were the case.

::throws hands up and walks out, subscription removed::

[Milo v3]

::throws hands up and walks out, subscription removed::

This is your response when someone asks you to clarify a jumble of text which no one can understand....

[Pyromancer999]

If you just change the bonus from Blade's Impact to an enhancement bonus instead of untyped, that should take care of the DR/Magic and incorporeality issue nicely.

That's a good option. Also thinking that perhaps it should be that it counts as a magic weapon so long as Blade Points are invested in the weapon. Think that should work fine.


So, the points are invested entirely in the weapon (barring Creature of the Bladesworn, which invests them into you, and Imbue the Blade, which appears to spend them), which then grant the full benefit for all of the various feats that ask you to invest Blade Points? That makes a lot more sense, and makes things work a lot better. I'd recommend spelling out explicitly in the Bladesworn feat how this works, including when and how you invest points.

"You have a pool of Blade Points containing 1 point + 1 per 2 Bladesworn feats you possess. At the beginning of each day and again at the beginning of each encounter, these points refresh, restoring any lost Blade Points and allowing you to reassign them amongst your Bladesworn weapon, you Blade Pool, and any other Blade Point receptacles you may possess (this takes no action on your part). Many Bladesworn feats grant additional bonuses based on the number of Blade Points invested in your Bladesworn weapon."

Hmmmm...not exactly how I'd word it, but it's a good start, and it would appear the wording should be altered a little.


Standard save DCs are 10 + 1/2 character level (or HD or class level or other equivalent) + an ability modifier. Observe the Stunning Fist feat, for example. For this effect, however, I would recommend removing the save entirely. Rendering an opponent flat-footed for a single attack is a very minor effect. In most cases where it does anything, it's only 2-3 points of AC lost. Rogues appreciate it, but even so it's still not a reliable method of attaining Sneak Attack (Uncanny Dodge and immunity to critical hits still prevent it).

Valid point, although I'd still sort of like a save to be there.


Mostly just analyzing it for myself. There are two issues there, although part or all of them may be incorrect if I understand your other comments correctly. However, as written, the feat only grants bonus damage for the Blade Points you invest as part of the move action to charge the weapon, which means your other attacks won't benefit from those points for Blade Impact or Enhance the Blade.

1) Competing with both move/full-round actions and with Blade's Impact. Since the points in the blade apply to all feats equally, the Blade's Impact issue is a non-issue. The loss of your move actions, however, are significant. At low levels, when you have only a single attack (BaB < 6), spending a move action for extra damage is a very reasonable trade. At higher levels, however, it falls behind the additional damage from a second (or third or fourth) attack in a full-attack. With 4 Bladesworn feats, you still only add 3d8 damage, average 13.5, whereas an extra attack would easily deal more damage (2d6 greatsword + 6 for 18 Strength + 3 Blade Impact = 16 average as a bare minimum, and by level 6 you should be doing much more).

2) I misunderstood how the points worked. I thought you spent them, then got them back each encounter, except with Enhance the Blade which gave back those points once you made your attack. But the way it works as you've explained it to me isn't compatible with what I thought, so never mind.
So, now I'm thinking I definitely should have Blade Points be allocated as a swift action. Perhaps have the weapon manifest as a swift action as well.


I'll reiterate that these feats really feel weak to me. They're only useful if you take multiples in the chain (barring niche situations, Bladebound is just a mundane, unenchantable, non-masterwork weapon, and it takes at least 4 feats to even approximate a weapon you can buy with level-appropriate cash). Feats are a rare and valuable resource. The average character gets only 7 from level 1 to 20 (10 with flaws and Human). There are far more than that many worthwhile feats to take once you step outside of Core, vastly more so once you include homebrew. Any new feats don't need to be as good as the best of them, but they do need to be on the same scale.

Part of the point of these feats is to increase in power with more feats taken.

Also, the power level of these feats can somewhat change based on how readily available magic weapons are available. In most games I've been in, magic items were normally sort of rare, and were appreciated and not relied upon. I'd suppose that in a campaign where getting a magic item is as easy as spending money, these feats might lose some of their impact. Still, I think I will keep the feats the same, other than a few adjustments to wording and such that seem to be called for.

[Garryl]

No objections here about the feats scaling. I just think they should have a stronger baseline to scale from. Your work, your call, after all.

[Pyromancer999]

Alright, changes made:

-Clarified the investment of Blade Points
-Can allocate Blade Points as a swift action
-So long as you've got at least one Blade Point invested in the Bladesworn weapon, it counts as a magic weapon.
-Sudden Blow still has a DC, but is now changed to 10 + 2 x the number of Bladesworn feats you have.

[Deviston]

This is your response when someone asks you to clarify a jumble of text which no one can understand....

Odd, no where in his post did I read such a request.


12-20 is easily attainable. In the next example we will make the specified feat count for a weapon called a Scythe. We will take the base 14-20 x4 and then as you gain a few more levels, remember that it can be 13-20 x4.

In this example we will fill each square in a 15 foot wide and 105 foot long line. If he uses Path of Destruction, he can make attacks on the 40 targets within the range.
If the targets are spread out versus in a line, even more targets may be hit with the available move speed.

To make note at this point, more than 40 targets, dealing 2d4 to each (plus Str X 1.5) at critical multiplier and range 13-20 x4.

Add in the bonus to damage and attack rolls for every two hit. The spoiler block below details the damage from the consecutive attacks.
Targets 3/4 takes a bonus 1, T5/6 +2, T7/8 +3, T9/10 +4, T11/12 +5, T13/14 +6, T15/16 +7, T17/18 +8, T19/20 +9, T21/22 +10, T23/24 +11, T25/26 +12, T27/28 +13, T29/30 +14, T31/32 +15, T33/34 +16, T35/36 +17, T37/38 +18 and ending with Targets 39 and 40 taking a bonus 19 damage each.
Let us tally and total this all up as if he hit all of these attacks, assume he has a Strength score of 18, should be low at that level but we'll stick with it.

Additionally, if we consider power attack, it would be easy to forsee reducing your attack roll by 10 at Targets 23/4 to bump your crits by an additional 40 damage per.

The spoiler below details average damage of this situation.
Average dice rolls at 4 damage each, STR x 1.5 for 6 damage per attack.
400 damage from weapon + Strength, and an additional 380 from the bonus damage of the feat.
This is a total of 780 damage, useable a few times a day, with his 13-20 x4 weapon making ZERO crits.
Let's say he hits 16 of those as crits....
This is roughly 640 crit damage + 240 normal for a total of 880 from weapon and Strength.

If we add the critical damages with the bonus damage from the consecutive feats, we get 1260 average damage output in one round.
This damage output is usable a few times per day, with no resource expended.

Maybe a DM would not normally put a character against this number of enemies, however the point is that it can easily be abused. This feat would be extremely useful to a Chaotic Evil character who attempts to wipe out citizenry in a town for example. 40 targets within his range would be extremely easy to conceive.

I summary, it is not the intended use, nor the expected use, but the extremely easy to see and highly possible abuse. I was critical before and under the effects of several VERY potent cups of coffee. My apologies for being so... negative?


EDIT: I want to note that the tons-o-damage spamming can be done by a sorcerer spamming fireballs of course. Assuming the sorcerer has 18 Charisma and not special items or special optimization, middle damage is about 660 damage using 22 fireballs to a single target. Total squares within could be up to 44 targets equalling 29,040 damage (roughly) but that is over 22 rounds. A single round would be about 1320 to the 44 targets.

The melee character can only do his twice per day at this level but... I don't know. It just seems a bit much.

[Milo v3]

Odd, no where in his post did I read such a request.


I.....can't read this. It appears to be interspersed with snippets of past comments, and doesn't really have structure. If it were to be formatted, I could probably respond to this better.

Whitetext.

[Deviston]

Definition. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/request)

Turns out, still not a request.

[Milo v3]

Definition. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/request)

Turns out, still not a request.

Firstly, I never said it was a Request.

Secondly, it was obvious what you were saying needed clarification. From his reaction.

Thirdly, he directly stated that

"I.....can't read this. It appears to be interspersed with snippets of past comments, and doesn't really have structure. If it were to be formatted, I could probably respond to this better.
"

Which means: If you formatted it, he could respond to it properly, as now he cannot understand what you mean.

[Deviston]

It wasn't obvious to me. I reread my post and it made perfect sense. I honestly can't understand how someone CAN'T understand what was said. All the pieces and parts exist and can quickly be put together.

That being said, I am not certain how my examples could be formatted to be "more understandable". Like I said, it's all so extremely simple and obvious to me, but as the originator of the thought/post I guess that makes sense.

In my eyes his comment meant "I don't WANT to spend the time or effort to read and understand what you are saying. It could be formatted so that it is easier for me to comprehend. I won't be able to respond properly until your information has been made easy for me to quickly comprehend without much effort on my part."

That's what it meant to me.