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Amador
2011-01-28, 01:04 PM
Is it possible to turn a lich into a worm that walks? Just wondering what the playground thought of this.

Soren Hero
2011-01-28, 01:13 PM
it might be possible to go from lich to worm that walks, but that depends on whether a lich "leaves behind a corpse" when it dies...my understanding of undeath is that once you get a lich to 0 HP, it is "destroyed" but it doesn't necessarily leave behind a corpse (in the normal sense) because the lich's phylactery causes the lich to "reappear 1d10 days after its apparent death"...so RAW, i don't know if it is possible

however, i don't think there is any reason why a worm that walks can't become a lich..all it requires is the rituals and the creation of its phylactery...which for flavor reasons could be one of the maggots or worms of the worm that walks, but for crunch reasons really shouldn't be incorporated into the wtw anyway

Lapak
2011-01-28, 01:19 PM
however, i don't think there is any reason why a worm that walks can't become a lich..all it requires is the rituals and the creation of its phylactery...which for flavor reasons could be one of the maggots or worms of the worm that walks, but for crunch reasons really shouldn't be incorporated into the wtw anywayThe biggest reason a WtW can't become a lich is because its type does not qualify. A Worm that Walks is an Abberation, and Lich can only be applied to a Humanoid.

Soren Hero
2011-01-28, 01:24 PM
The biggest reason a WtW can't become a lich is because its type does not qualify. A Worm that Walks is an Abberation, and Lich can only be applied to a Humanoid.

i always miss those type requirements :smallannoyed:

Khatoblepas
2011-01-28, 01:31 PM
It's possible to go from Worm that Walks into DRY lich, though. Dry Lich doesn't require humanoid, it requires any living creature. And you're a living creature. You're lots of them!

Desert Maggots does kind of have a weird disconnect, though. Worms don't last long in deserts, unless they're sandworms. Then you can reenact Dune.

Lapak
2011-01-28, 01:36 PM
It's possible to go from Worm that Walks into DRY lich, though. Dry Lich doesn't require humanoid, it requires any living creature. And you're a living creature. You're lots of them!

Desert Maggots does kind of have a weird disconnect, though. Worms don't last long in deserts, unless they're sandworms. Then you can reenact Dune.I don't have the relevant reference book, but I thought Dry Liches put their organs in jars instead of having a standard phylactery? A Worm that Walks doesn't have a heart or a liver or anything else to put in there. :smallconfused:

Khatoblepas
2011-01-28, 01:38 PM
I don't have the relevant reference book, but I thought Dry Liches put their organs in jars instead of having a standard phylactery? A Worm that Walks doesn't have a heart or a liver or anything else to put in there. :smallconfused:

They have bug organs. They can put bug organs inside the jars. It's not like maggots don't have a stomach or a heart or anything.

Thousands of tiny maggot livers. Pleasant.

Sophistemon
2011-01-28, 01:56 PM
Thousands of tiny maggot livers. Pleasant.
Now imagine yourself as the adventurer tasked with hunting them all down.

Chilingsworth
2011-01-28, 03:13 PM
The biggest reason a WtW can't become a lich is because its type does not qualify. A Worm that Walks is an Abberation, and Lich can only be applied to a Humanoid.

There's the variant illithid lich in Libris Mortis. Maybe you could repurpose that?

Czin
2011-01-28, 03:17 PM
There's the variant illithid lich in Libris Mortis. Maybe you could repurpose that?

The Alhoon/Illithilich was in the lords of madness book, not in the Libris Mortis. There are pretty much no references to the Mind Flayers in the Libris Mortis, but it is a forgivable mistake to make. But I really, really doubt that the Alhoon could be used for an undead WtW. However, the Swarm-shifter template, which was probably what you were thinking of, is almost perfect for this task, though you will need some stat retouching.

Chilingsworth
2011-01-28, 03:24 PM
The Alhoon/Illithilich was in the lords of madness book, not in the Libris Mortis. There are pretty much no references to the Mind Flayers in the Libris Mortis, but it is a forgivable mistake to make. But I really, really doubt that the Alhoon could be used for an undead WtW. However, the Swarm-shifter template, which was probably what you were thinking of, is almost perfect for this task, though you will need some stat retouching.

I was actually thinking of the Alhoon. I just spaced on the correct book, I guess. I was basically thinking of a Lich template that could be used on abberations. The Swarm-shifter template, now that I'm reminded of it, looks promising to me, too.

druid91
2011-01-28, 06:07 PM
The alhoon was also in monsters of faerun.

Runestar
2011-01-28, 07:00 PM
Now imagine yourself as the adventurer tasked with hunting them all down.

Big deal. Aumvor the undying (a lich from champions of ruin) managed to split his phylactery into hundreds of parts, each of which must be located and destroyed for him to stay dead. :smalleek:

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-28, 07:08 PM
Big deal. Aumvor the undying (a lich from champions of ruin) managed to split his phylactery into hundreds of parts, each of which must be located and destroyed for him to stay dead. :smalleek:

Yeah, but if I'm not mistaken that required epic magic to accomplish.

Khatoblepas
2011-01-28, 07:10 PM
Big deal. Aumvor the undying (a lich from champions of ruin) managed to split his phylactery into hundreds of parts, each of which must be located and destroyed for him to stay dead. :smalleek:

Now take the maggot phylacteries (still technically tiny, but what the hell), and split them up with this guy's epic spell. You're probably ECL30 anyway, so epic spellcasting is not beyond you.

Now everyone has to spend five times as long destroying you, since you have five phylacteries from the get go, and each is split up into hundreds of pieces.

Then you Dispel Magic/Polymorph Any Object on some of them into Elans, Mindrape them into having memories (and a Good alignment), and you have walking, talking phylacteries that are immortal, and noone's gonna wanna kill them, since you put them into positions of power, like the cribs of princes... and the hands of a hapless farmers. That lone farmboy is gonna grow up and want to adventure.

Whoopee!

J.Gellert
2011-01-28, 08:13 PM
And then your epic arch-rival researches a spell called "Phylacterycide" which tracks down and destroys each and every one of your phylacteries... :smalltongue:

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-28, 08:53 PM
WtW=Ooze.

Also, the template just says it can be applied to "any evil wizard or sorcerer"

The only part where it might have difficulty reacting with a Lich is



Target: Dead creature touched

Khatoblepas
2011-01-28, 09:08 PM
WtW=Ooze.

Also, the template just says it can be applied to "any evil wizard or sorcerer"

The only part where it might have difficulty reacting with a Lich is

Unfortunately, it was an Ooze in 3.0, now it is an Abberation because of the update :(

There's a massively cheaper ritual that can be performed with a chance of failure. Not counting bonus spells, a base wizard has a 40% chance of becoming a Worm that Walks. Add in Focused Specialist, and you get another 18%. A Ring of Wizardry I & II gives you 8%, and pearls of power give you more.

40
18
08 +
__
66%
That means you need 44 pearls of Power (level 1) to have a 100% chance of rising as a Worm that Walks.

Always do this step first. Don't become a Lich then a WtW, become a WtW then a Dry Lich, since you can't go Lich->WtW or WtW->Lich

Ravens_cry
2011-01-28, 09:13 PM
Ugh, worm that walks, creepeth me out. Seriously. Liches? Bah, your a walking talking skeleton with an unending thirst for knowledge. I can dig it. Vampires. Hey, as long as you don't bite me, its cool. But worm that walks? Kill it, kill it with fire!:smalleek:
Though the idea of thousands of tiny organ jars sounds adorable somehow . . .

NothingButCake
2011-01-28, 11:51 PM
Now take the maggot phylacteries (still technically tiny, but what the hell), and split them up with this guy's epic spell. You're probably ECL30 anyway, so epic spellcasting is not beyond you.

Now everyone has to spend five times as long destroying you, since you have five phylacteries from the get go, and each is split up into hundreds of pieces.

Then you Dispel Magic/Polymorph Any Object on some of them into Elans, Mindrape them into having memories (and a Good alignment), and you have walking, talking phylacteries that are immortal, and noone's gonna wanna kill them, since you put them into positions of power, like the cribs of princes... and the hands of a hapless farmers. That lone farmboy is gonna grow up and want to adventure.Isn't this Harry Potter.

BenTheJester
2011-01-28, 11:57 PM
Now take the maggot phylacteries (still technically tiny, but what the hell), and split them up with this guy's epic spell. You're probably ECL30 anyway, so epic spellcasting is not beyond you.

Now everyone has to spend five times as long destroying you, since you have five phylacteries from the get go, and each is split up into hundreds of pieces.

Then you Dispel Magic/Polymorph Any Object on some of them into Elans, Mindrape them into having memories (and a Good alignment), and you have walking, talking phylacteries that are immortal, and noone's gonna wanna kill them, since you put them into positions of power, like the cribs of princes... and the hands of a hapless farmers. That lone farmboy is gonna grow up and want to adventure.

Whoopee!

The phylactery of the only lich I ever played was a grain of black sand. Try to find that in a desert of black sand.

MeeposFire
2011-01-29, 12:25 AM
Now take the maggot phylacteries (still technically tiny, but what the hell), and split them up with this guy's epic spell. You're probably ECL30 anyway, so epic spellcasting is not beyond you.

Now everyone has to spend five times as long destroying you, since you have five phylacteries from the get go, and each is split up into hundreds of pieces.

Then you Dispel Magic/Polymorph Any Object on some of them into Elans, Mindrape them into having memories (and a Good alignment), and you have walking, talking phylacteries that are immortal, and noone's gonna wanna kill them, since you put them into positions of power, like the cribs of princes... and the hands of a hapless farmers. That lone farmboy is gonna grow up and want to adventure.

Whoopee!

Now do their descendants further the phylacteries? If they did that would be awesome.

unosarta
2011-01-29, 12:36 AM
Now take the maggot phylacteries (still technically tiny, but what the hell), and split them up with this guy's epic spell. You're probably ECL30 anyway, so epic spellcasting is not beyond you.

Now everyone has to spend five times as long destroying you, since you have five phylacteries from the get go, and each is split up into hundreds of pieces.

Then you Dispel Magic/Polymorph Any Object on some of them into Elans, Mindrape them into having memories (and a Good alignment), and you have walking, talking phylacteries that are immortal, and noone's gonna wanna kill them, since you put them into positions of power, like the cribs of princes... and the hands of a hapless farmers. That lone farmboy is gonna grow up and want to adventure.

Whoopee!

But... what if that farmboy went and adventured, and then, unbeknown to the Lich that Walks, makes the lich his personal enemy? He would have to kill himself to kill the lich! :smalleek:

That would be... evil!

Waker
2011-01-29, 01:11 AM
But... what if that farmboy went and adventured, and then, unbeknown to the Lich that Walks, makes the lich his personal enemy? He would have to kill himself to kill the lich!

That would be... evil!

As a plot twist, it turns out the entire adventuring party is the Lich's philactery. What a twist!

MeeposFire
2011-01-29, 01:12 AM
As a plot twist, it turns out the entire adventuring party is the Lich's philactery. What a twist!

Exactly and think if it was you r parents were the originals? You would have to choose to kill your whole family! Do you kill it now and sacrifice everybody or do you find an alternative such as being cursed to contain this evil for all time?

DrizztFan24
2011-01-29, 01:18 AM
or do you find an alternative such as being cursed to contain this evil for all time?

Isn't this Diablo?

Waker
2011-01-29, 01:21 AM
Isn't this Diablo?
Kinda, but since there was a Diablo II, we know how that turned out.

MeeposFire
2011-01-29, 01:27 AM
Kinda, but since there was a Diablo II, we know how that turned out.

This time less corruption but more hopeless.

FelixG
2011-01-29, 01:42 AM
Exactly and think if it was you r parents were the originals? You would have to choose to kill your whole family! Do you kill it now and sacrifice everybody or do you find an alternative such as being cursed to contain this evil for all time?

And the next twist! Before the adventurer gets even to that part (s)he destroys all of their magical gear trying to find out which bit of it is bringing the Lich back before the adventurer finally realizes that it is them that is bringing the Lich back!

Plus it sets the Lich up for a wonderful "I am your (great grand) Father!" moment!

MeeposFire
2011-01-29, 01:43 AM
And the next twist! Before the adventurer gets even to that part (s)he destroys all of their magical gear trying to find out which bit of it is bringing the Lich back before the adventurer finally realizes that it is them that is bringing the Lich back!

Plus it sets the Lich up for a wonderful "I am your (great grand) Father!" moment!

I am your father's creator and you, YOU are my essence!

I have got to use this.

FelixG
2011-01-29, 01:46 AM
Also: create your own plane with a time trait jjacked up, any hero that wants to get rid of you has to kill all the good peace loving folk on the plane.

Is killing one Lich worth genocide? :smallbiggrin:

MeeposFire
2011-01-29, 01:47 AM
Probably not though that would depend on your method of determining ethical actions.

FelixG
2011-01-29, 03:37 AM
Probably not though that would depend on your method of determining ethical actions.

The paladins in the group would cry then beat the DM with books :smallbiggrin:

Khatoblepas
2011-01-29, 08:38 AM
And the next twist! Before the adventurer gets even to that part (s)he destroys all of their magical gear trying to find out which bit of it is bringing the Lich back before the adventurer finally realizes that it is them that is bringing the Lich back!

Plus it sets the Lich up for a wonderful "I am your (great grand) Father!" moment!

Note that Polymorph Any Object doesn't grant a soul, either. So if you kill yourself, you destroy the phylactery, but you also destroy yourself. So you either face an immortal evil epic level wizard for all eternity, or face personal oblivion. You won't even get an afterlife. You will just be... obliterated. Since you are no more than a transmuted object with implanted memories. Just a puppet. So Paladin, before you smite all the lich's phylactery-men, remember that they don't have an afterlife to go to when they die. But they ping on Detect Good, are decent people, and are otherwise completely identical to people with souls.

What better phylactery than a race of inherently Good creatures? So long as they don't cotton on and commit suicide to stop you.

Damn good creatures!

umbrapolaris
2011-01-29, 09:12 AM
And then your epic arch-rival researches a spell called "Phylacterycide" which tracks down and destroys each and every one of your phylacteries... :smalltongue:

but you dont care coz you are a demilich (ad&d 2e van richten version), your incredible mind roam across the planes unbounded from a physical body, seeking ultimate knowledge and godhood :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2011-01-29, 09:48 AM
Yeah, but if I'm not mistaken that required epic magic to accomplish.

To be fair, Worm That Walks also requires epic magic - Gathering of Maggots.

Volthawk
2011-01-29, 10:17 AM
To be fair, Worm That Walks also requires epic magic - Gathering of Maggots.

Not necessarily, that's just the only sure-fire way.

Analytica
2011-01-29, 10:25 AM
If you really wanted, you could smash your phylactery, UMD a True Resurrection scroll on yourself to become a living mortal again, and then become a Worm. Not that I really see the point, but...

Better option: bond with a Worm. Lich provides skeleton. Worms provide flesh.

Chilingsworth
2011-01-29, 01:23 PM
About the whole "living race as your (Good Aligned) phylactery vessels: The plan calls for turning the phylactery pieces in Elans. Unfortunately, Elans do not age, at all, and cannot reproduce. So, you'd have a fixed number of pieces. Making a race of phylactery-Elans wouldn't really work. Unless you somehow gave them the ability to reproduce (and age up to reproductive age at least) maybe an epic spell of some kind could do it?

Pechvarry
2011-01-29, 01:28 PM
-The Elan hero allows for making new bodies and a transfer of consciousness trick, I'm sure. IT ALSO MAKES FOR A BAD ASS VESTIGE WHEN SACRIFICED.

-The entire plane needing destroyed to kill a lich? That wreaks of "imprisoned great evil" instead of destroying the lich outright.

-for the topic at hand, perhaps it'd be fun if Worms that Walk were constructed out of a lich's destroyed body. Thus, the lich lives on (due to phylactery), but he leaves behind a body with memories and full spellcasting knowledge.

Khatoblepas
2011-01-29, 01:38 PM
About the whole "living race as your (Good Aligned) phylactery vessels: The plan calls for turning the phylactery pieces in Elans. Unfortunately, Elans do not age, at all, and cannot reproduce. So, you'd have a fixed number of pieces. Making a race of phylactery-Elans wouldn't really work. Unless you somehow gave them the ability to reproduce (and age up to reproductive age at least) maybe an epic spell of some kind could do it?

Well, I just needed an immortal race, and Elans were the first I came up with.

Killorens are also immortal, so I guess you could use them. But they're fey and like nature, so being the phylacteries for an undead horror is probably not preferable to oblivion. Then again, mind rape.

SITB
2011-01-29, 02:21 PM
If you really wanted, you could smash your phylactery, UMD a True Resurrection scroll on yourself to become a living mortal again, and then become a Worm. Not that I really see the point, but...

Better option: bond with a Worm. Lich provides skeleton. Worms provide flesh.

That's a really awesome idea, you have the PCs think that their BBEG is a schizoprenic Lich when he is basically two epic spellcasters in one body. Why do they work togther, what drives them to work togther? them being blood related ? TWTW being the lich mentor? TWTW using Mind control? So many possiblities...

J.Gellert
2011-01-29, 02:29 PM
About the whole "living race as your (Good Aligned) phylactery vessels: The plan calls for turning the phylactery pieces in Elans. Unfortunately, Elans do not age, at all, and cannot reproduce. So, you'd have a fixed number of pieces. Making a race of phylactery-Elans wouldn't really work. Unless you somehow gave them the ability to reproduce (and age up to reproductive age at least) maybe an epic spell of some kind could do it?

Wait, if the living phylactery reproduces, you gain new phylacteries?

In that case, just use fruit flies. Or bunnies. Or E.Coli.

Waker
2011-01-29, 02:42 PM
Note that Polymorph Any Object doesn't grant a soul, either.
Well sure, the spell doesn't grant a soul. You could argue however that since the creature in question was originally a phyactery it does have a soul, the Lich's. And what if the creature died with some unresolved goal and became a Ghost!

And no, I wouldn't ever try this as a player or allow this were I the DM. I just think it's funny playing Devil's Advocate.

Amador
2011-01-29, 03:12 PM
I've been talking this over some of my friends, and the question came up "Does a Lich count as a corpse?"

Waker
2011-01-29, 03:18 PM
I've been talking this over some of my friends, and the question came up "Does a Lich count as a corpse?"
No, they are considered Undead creatures. Corpses are objects.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-29, 04:09 PM
If you really wanted, you could smash your phylactery, UMD a True Resurrection scroll on yourself to become a living mortal again, and then become a Worm. Not that I really see the point, but...

Better option: bond with a Worm. Lich provides skeleton. Worms provide flesh.
And as if I could not be horrified any more, I just was.:smalleek: