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Rumel
2011-01-28, 07:46 PM
My take on a Rogue-ish Ranger-ish ninja... With a tiny bit of Barbarian thrown in...


The Dual Blade Stalker:
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Ref Save|Fort Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+0|Sneak Attack (1d6), Trapfinding

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+0|Two Weapon Fighting, Evasion

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+1|Sneak Attack (2d6)

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+1|Matching Set, Uncanny Dodge

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+1|Sneak Attack (3d6)

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+2|Careful Examination

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+2|Sneak Attack (4d6)

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+2|Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Uncanny Dodge

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+3|Sneak Attack (5d6)

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+3|Hide in Plain Sight

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+3|Sneak Attack (6d6)

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+4|Thorough Examination

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+4|Sneak Attack (7d6)

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+4|Shadow Dash

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+5|Sneak Attack (8d6)

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Deadly Examination

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Sneak Attack (9d6)

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Greater Two Weapon Fighting

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Sneak Attack (10d6)

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Assassin's Dash[/table]

Hit Die: d8

Skill Points: 8+Intelligence (x4 at first level)

Skills: The Dual Blade Stalker is trained in all skills

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dual Blade Stalkers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, plus all light exotic weapons. Dual Blade Stalkers are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Class Features: The following are class features of the Dual Blade Stalker...

Sneak Attack:If a Dual Blade Stalker can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The Dual Blade Stalkerís attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the Dual Blade Stalker flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two Dual Blade Stalker levels thereafter. Should the Dual Blade Stalker score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a Dual Blade Stalker can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A Dual Blade Stalker can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomiesóundead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The Dual Blade Stalker must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A Dual Blade Stalker cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Trapfinding: Dual Blade Stalker can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

Dual Blade Stalkers can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

A Dual Blade Stalker who beats a trapís DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

Two-Weapon Fighting: the Dual Blade Stalker gains Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat at level 2. This upgrades the improved two-weapon fighting at level 8. And Greater two-weapon fighting at level 16. They need not meet the presiquites for these feats

Evasion: the Dual Blade Stalker now has the ability to dodge faster than most. Now whenever the Dual Blade Stalker makes a Reflex save for half damage, he ignores all damage instead of taking the reduced effect.

Matching Set: When the Dual Blade Stalker enchants his weapons, he pays half price for the least expensive one or quarter price if the powers match, such as +2 Flaming longsword and a +2 Flaming shortsword.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex):Starting at 4th level, a Dual Blade Stalker can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a Dual Blade Stalker already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Examination: the Dual Blade Stalker may spend three turns watching his victim while they don't suspect you as a threat. This gives you new abilities as you level...

(Careful Examination): you gain a class level bonus to your first attack roll against the targets you select for one hour as long as they don't know you are around. After one hour, you need another three turns of examination to gain this bonus again. If your presence is suspected but not known to be in the area this ability still works. For example, a Dual Blade Stalker examines his target for three turns and the target is worried someone might be following him. You attack him with a bonus and run away. You sneak back in, but the ability does not work a second time since the target knows you are after him and is expecting you.

(Thorough Examination): you notice small quirks in a target's actions and decide how to maximize your surprise. After three rounds of examination you deal 1.5x sneak attack damage to a target and .5x sneak attack damage against creatures normally immune. You effectively multiply your SA damage roll by 1.5 or .5

(Deadly Examination): after three rounds of examination you may make one attack to instantly kill a target. If you hit the target, they must make a Fort save (DC=10+1/2 Class Level+Int mod) or die. This affects creatures normally immune to critical strikes because of the 'thorough examination' ability, but takes a -5 penalty on DC for the save.

Improved Uncanny Dodge:A Dual Blade Stalker of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.

This defense denies another Dual Blade Stalker the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more Dual Blade Stalker levels than the target does.

If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum Dual Blade Stalker level required to flank the character.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): the Dual Blade Stalker may hide in any shadow as the SRD ability.

Shadow Dash: the Dual Blade Stalker may now move at his full speed while hiding without penalty. He also may attack a creature and dive into the shadows to hide again as if he was sniping (-10 penalty). They need not be the same shadows. If the creature is no more than one size category above the Dual Blade Stalker, he may carry him to the shadows as he dashes, but only after he is unconscious or dead. Plus, now the Dual Blade Stalker may attempt to hide in the light for one turn after leaving the shadows.

Assassin's Dash: the Dual Blade Stalker may examine a number of creatures per attacks he may make as a Full-Attack action and use his examination abilities on them all in one swoop as long as he does not move farther than his max speed. He needs to move at least 5ft between every two attacks, because he is running and cannot stand still, though he may zig-zag as he pleases. For example, a level 20 Dual Blade Stalker is in the shadows five feet from armed guards. There are six guards in a row of two five feet from eachother. The Dual Blade Stalker examines them for three turns and leaps. He hits the two closest to him, then moves five feet and attacks the next two and continues on another five feet to the last guards. He jumps into the shadows to hide again as all the guards fall. This is an impossibly helpful power for infiltrating a building.

-----------------------------------------------

My take on a Barbarian/Fighter...


The Dual Blade Tank:
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Ref Save|Fort Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+3|Two-Weapon Fighting

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+4|Matching Set

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+5|
+5|Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+6|
+6|Side Grip

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+7|
+7|Bonus Feat

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+7|
+7|Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+8|
+8|Bonus Feat

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+4|
+8|
+8|Greater Strength

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+4|
+9|
+9|Bonus Feat

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+9|
+9|Two Weapon Defense

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+10|
+10|Bonus Feat

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+10|Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+11|Bonus Feat

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+11|Deft Combat

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+12|Bonus Feat[/table]

Hit Die: d10

Skill Points: 2+Intelligence (x4 at first level)

Skills: The Dual Blade Tank's class skills (and the key ability for each) are Jump (Str), Intimidate (Cha), Ride (Dex), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Search (Int) and Swim (Str)

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dual Blade Tanks are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, plus three exotic weapons of his choice. Dual Blade Tanks are proficient with light, medium and heavy armor, and with all shields (Including Tower Shields).

Class Features: The following are class features of the Dual Blade Tank...

Bonus Feats: the Dual Blade Tank gains bonus feats from the Fighter's feat list and has an effective Fighter level of his Dual Blade Tank class levels.

Two-Weapon Fighting: The Dual Blade Tank gains Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat even if he does not meet the presiquites. This upgrades to Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at level 7, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at level 11 and Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting at level 17.

Matching Set: The Dual Blade Tank pays half price for magical enhancement to his lowest priced weapon, and 1/4 price on one weapon if the two have identical enhancements.

Side Grip: The Dual Blade Tank gets the equivalent of the Monkey-Grip feat for his off-hand weapon. So, a Dual Blade Tank can use a One-Handed Weapon with his off-hand while taking an additional -2 penalty to that arms rolls alone.

Greater Strength: The Dual Blade Tank may now add his full Str bonus to damage with his off-hand.

Two-Weapon Defense: The Dual Blade Tank may add one point of Deflection bonus to AC for each attack that turn he gives up. If he uses one blade completely foe defense, he gains an additional point to his AC. This lasts until his next turn.

Deft Combat: A Dual Blade Tank is able to use three weapons instead of just two. He switches between them as he attacks and it cownts as an off-hand weapon. It may be used with the Matching Set and Two-Weapon Defense abilities. For all purposes you effectively have a third arm due to your speed.

Lateral
2011-01-28, 09:53 PM
Well, first of all, you misspelled 'thief'.


Hit Die: d8

Skill Points: 8+Intelligence (x4 at first level)

Skills: The Thief is trained in all skills
Good. Needs those skill points, and training in all skills is good, although not really quite in flavor with a thief. Why would a thief have Heal on its class list?
I'm also seeing damage potential with Iaijutsu Focus and Sneak Attack, but it's not really a problem or anything- it could probably use the damage.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Thiefs are proficient with all simple weapons, plus all light exotic weapons. Thiefs are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Why all light exotic weapons? It seems kind of weird that they can use nunchaku effectively, but not a sap. I'd just make it all light weapons and all simple weapons.


Sneak Attack: the Thief deals Sneak Attack damage as indicated on the chart as the SRD ability
Poorly worded, but okay. I'd just take the description of Sneak Attack that's in the Rogue and use that with the word 'rogue' changed to 'thief' where necessary.


Two-Weapon Fighting: the Thief gain the chain of Two-Weapon Fighting feats even if he does not meet the presaquites as the SRD ability.
Far too vague. As worded, the thief gets every feat in existence that has TWF as a prerequisite or a prereq of a prereq, and so on. So, at level 2, he gets Greater TWF, Two-Weapon Rend, Oversized TWF, et cetera, et cetera.


Matching Set: When the thief enchants his weapons, he pays half price for the least expensive one or quarter price if the powers match, such as +2 Flaming / +2 Flaming.
I don't understand this ability; it's far too poorly worded.


Examination: the Thief may spend three turns watching his victim while they don't suspect you as a threat. This gives you new abilities as you level...

(Careful Examination): you gain a class level bonus to your first attack against the targets you select for one hour as long as they don't know you are around. After one hour, you need another three turns of examination to gain this bonus again. If your presence is suspected but not known to be in the area this ability still works. For example, a Thief examines his target for three turns and he is worried someone might be following him. You attack him with a bonus and run away. You sneak back in, but the ability does not work a second time since he knows you are after him and is expecting you.
Bonus to the attack roll, or to the damage roll?


(Thorough Examination): you notice small quirks in a target's actions and decide how to maximize your surprise. After three rounds of examination you deal 1.5x sneak attack damage to a target and .5x sneak attack damage against creatures normally immune.
Does this empower your sneak attacks (or have you roll and divide by 2), or does it multiply the number of dice rolled by 1.5 (or .5)?


(Deadly Examination): after three rounds of examination you may make one attack to instantly kill a target. If you hit the target, they must make a Fort save (DC=10+1/2 Class Level+Int mod) or die. This affects creatures normally immune to critical strikes because of the 'thorough examination' ability, but takes a -5 penalty on DC for the save.
Meh. It's not a very good ability on an assassin, and it's not very good here.


Hide in Plain Sight: the Thief may hide in any shadow as the SRD ability.
Which one- (Ex), or (Su)?


Shadow Dash: the Thief may now move at his full speed while hiding without penalty. He also may attack a creature and dive into the shadows to hide again as if he was sniping (-10 penalty). They need not be the same shadows. If the creature is no more than one size category above the Thief, he may carry him to the shadows as he dashes, but only after he is unconscious or dead. Plus, now the Thief may attempt to hide in the light for one turn after leaving the shadows.
It's a decent ability for assassination.


Assassin's Dash: the Theif may study a number of creatures per attack he has and use his examination abilities on them all in one swoop as long as he does not move farther than his max speed. For example, a level 20 theif sees five orcs sitting around a fire. He watches them from a tent's shadow 5ft away. After three turns he uses one attack on each Orc useing the Deadly Examination ability, but uses his last attack on the fifth Orc as he has an extra. All fail except the last who staggers up as he was injured from the last blow. This is an impossibly helpful power for infiltrating a building.
I don't understand. Are you able to apply the benefits of Examination to every target of a full attack, or are you making a special attack and it only affects the first one whom the attack hits?


Anything horribly wrong?
The entire class is badly worded. Ignoring that, what this class needs is Evasion, Trapfinding, and Uncanny Dodge. This class seems more like an Assassin and less like a thief to me.

Rumel
2011-01-28, 09:55 PM
Well, first of all, you misspelled 'thief'.

Dalm! Stupid spell-check!

Ryuk01
2011-01-28, 09:59 PM
Well, first of all, you misspelled 'thief'.
And while we're on the topic, the plural for thief is 'thieves'.

Explain to me, why is this class called the thief? It feels much more like an assassin to me.

The_Admiral
2011-01-28, 10:01 PM
second its P E A C H not P E A C E

Rumel
2011-01-28, 10:03 PM
Well obvious misspellings aside, is it an ok class? I'll change the name...I feel stupid now :smallfrown:

Lateral
2011-01-28, 10:15 PM
It's hard to tell; it's very clumsily worded.

Jota
2011-01-28, 10:20 PM
Nothing horribly wrong, but there's nothing horribly right (read: original and awesome) either. The TWF and item mitigation costs are good metagame-oriented abilities, since thieves need those to compete, but other than that you've just thrown in a slightly modified Death Attack. It's more powerful than the rogue as written and still mostly balanced for tier 3 play, so mission accomplished there, but as said earlier, nothing groundbreaking.

Your example for Assassin's Dash is also rather confusing. I mean, the rogue has three attacks from BAB, but then three more if he's TWF. Your example doesn't seem to mesh with that, and the wording as a whole isn't entirely clear.

Rumel
2011-01-28, 10:21 PM
It's hard to tell; it's very clumsily worded.

Let's all just agree I'm not the most grammar oriented person while working on a class, ok? It's been said about four times now.

JustineSane
2011-01-28, 11:33 PM
I'm not too sure, but I don't think the grammar is the issue here. We need a little more clarification on the various abilities this class uses, as well as descriptions of the abilities without assuming everyone has access to SRD. Many different classes have a sneak attack ability, and some of them actually function in a different manner than the Rogue.

Looks like a good class overall, though, and would be great in a campaign that does not use standard base classes.

Cidolfas
2011-01-29, 11:28 AM
Since other people have brought it up, it might help if I clarified: I think all the criticism of the grammar isn't something that's separate from the rest of the class; it's necessary to get the correct interpretation of what the class features are.

In my opinion, you need BAB. Full BAB, that is. Giving Two-Weapon Fighting is a good idea in theory, but the way you are giving them is kind of lame because you're only going to be OK at something that's supposed to be your forte since the feats come way too late and you'll never get Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting.

Regardless, medium BAB is not enough for something that is supposed to be a melee class; giving two-weapon fighting only covers up the problem in the same way flurry does it with the monk. You're still only going to have three or four attacks that have a good chance to hit, probably less if you're incurring penalties from TWF). That's not enough to be effective, even with bonus damage from Sneak Attack. Examine is essentially useless in any normal combat situation and mostly seems inspired by the Assassin but even less combat-applicable. The fight wouldn't last long enough for you to examine everything even if the ability still worked when they recognize you as a threat (which they should). And if you take the time to examine something, you need a LOT of damage to back it up, probably more than a few hits with Sneak Attack and additional bonuses is capable of producing unless you were to land a critical hit every time. And once you have access to the save-or-die, going three rounds is just too long even if you can allow yourself to be noticed.

Even in Tier 3, the Rogue is an example of a class whose skin is saved by Use Magic Device; that's why JavonK initially put it in Tier 4. So Sneak Attack is not the model to go on in terms of deciding what is in fact Tier 3. While you could argue that this class doesn't need UMD because of the Examination abilities, you aren't even dealing your whole Sneak Attack damage, and just about everything that is normally immune to SA is still going to be highly resistant enough that you will have a tough as hell time of winning. As it stands this class is a one-trick pony that doesn't do its one trick well enough. If it's really a TWF class, which given the name seems at least partially the intent, I feel it should be really, really good at that.

Jota
2011-01-29, 11:43 AM
Since other people have brought it up, it might help if I clarified: I think all the criticism of the grammar isn't something that's separate from the rest of the class; it's necessary to get the correct interpretation of what the class features are.

In my opinion, you need BAB. Full BAB, that is. Giving Two-Weapon Fighting is a good idea in theory, but the way you are giving them is kind of lame because you're only going to be OK at something that's supposed to be your forte since the feats come way too late and you'll never get Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting.

Regardless, medium BAB is not enough for something that is supposed to be a melee class; giving two-weapon fighting only covers up the problem in the same way flurry does it with the monk. You're still only going to have three or four attacks that have a good chance to hit, probably less if you're incurring penalties from TWF). That's not enough to be effective, even with bonus damage from Sneak Attack. Examine is essentially useless in any normal combat situation and mostly seems inspired by the Assassin but even less combat-applicable. The fight wouldn't last long enough for you to examine everything even if the ability still worked when they recognize you as a threat (which they should). And if you take the time to examine something, you need a LOT of damage to back it up, probably more than a few hits with Sneak Attack and additional bonuses is capable of producing unless you were to land a critical hit every time. And once you have access to the save-or-die, going three rounds is just too long even if you can allow yourself to be noticed.

Even in Tier 3, the Rogue is an example of a class whose skin is saved by Use Magic Device; that's why JavonK initially put it in Tier 4. So Sneak Attack is not the model to go on in terms of deciding what is in fact Tier 3. While you could argue that this class doesn't need UMD because of the Examination abilities, you aren't even dealing your whole Sneak Attack damage, and just about everything that is normally immune to SA is still going to be highly resistant enough that you will have a tough as hell time of winning. As it stands this class is a one-trick pony that doesn't do its one trick well enough. If it's really a TWF class, which given the name seems at least partially the intent, I feel it should be really, really good at that.

Not sure I agree with the full BAB, as true meleers tend to not have extra damage on the level of full sneak attack, at least in the middling tiers. There's the Daring Outlaw, obviously, the the drawback to that is obviously that you're a swashbuckler instead of something with good class abilities.

Also noteworthy, though you've probably noticed, is that this rogue does have UMD (as it has access to all skills) so it fills the same role as the rogue (4/3 depending on optimization, and already reasonably functional in combat), but it's a better skill monkey, has greater customizability (no need for TWF investment), and in the event of a situation where the Examination abilities can be used, they're a nice touch.

Rumel
2011-01-29, 11:59 AM
I am not the best at making classes to start, so I'll just fix as I go. Thank you all for the help. Next I will create a tank-ish and caster Dual Blade class.