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pwykersotz
2011-01-28, 08:46 PM
Ever since I started reading these forums, a trend has made itself known to me. One that has confused me to no end. The idea that Wizards are extremely powerful and make most other classes pale in comparison.

I know Cleric and Druid are believed to be the same. Druid I can see. Animal Companion, the very nice power of Wildshape, and full spellcasting progression are all nice. Cleric is a bit in the same ballpark as Wizard for me, but I digress.

What's so great about Wizards?

It's true they can reshape the universe to their whim, but that's provided the universe doesn't get a Will Save.

Weakness 1: Preparing spells. A wizard is dead if caught with their pants down. I have never gamed with a wizard who could actually be useful in any kind of extended dungeon because they are either overspecialized to a specific cause or so spread thin on their spell preparation that they are near useless. At least a Sorcerer can try again if the enemy saves or if there's a nasty surprise in the stone wall that was just melded into, a Wizard gets to wait 8 hours.

Weakness 2: Saves. Especially at levels 1-10, but also heavily at 10-20, every creature I randomly pull from the Monster Manual (1, 2, 3, and 4) regularly save against a Wizard. I would say that if things go well for a Wizard, they waste half their spells against successful saves. I can't count the number of battles or scenarios my Wizard (or one of my friends) has been in that the Wizard was utterly useless due to saves alone. Not one spell was effective.

Weakness 3: Buffs. With everything I hear about Gish casters and the like, I was eager to see what could be done with this. But all in all, nothing that ordinary magic items can't already do. +4 to a stat for a while? Cool! Cast it on the Crusader and he gets a whole whopping 2 to his mod! For a little while! This is not the stuff of turning the tides of battles. Haste is great for giving that extra kick for a full round attack, but most combat with a party of 4 lasts only a few rounds. If there aren't tons of enemies to wade through, these buffs might get one or two uses per casting.

There are many more I have, but I think that suffices as an overview. Now that being said, I love Wizards. Their spells can do some cool things like Meld into Stone or Reverse Gravity. Not always handy, but sometimes they're a lifesaver. Much more versatility than Sorcerers too. If you know the whole challenge ahead of time and if you have time to prepare, yes, you can own a dungeon.

My case is simply that they are rather weak in combat and only useful outside of it if they have "happened" to prepare the right spell. Compared to Tome of Battle constantly refreshable maneuvers, or Sorcerer "retries", I'm not seeing the ultimate class here.

All that said, I'm rather confused still. What am I missing about Wizards?

CycloneJoker
2011-01-28, 08:54 PM
Ever since I started reading these forums, a trend has made itself known to me. One that has confused me to no end. The idea that Wizards are extremely powerful and make most other classes pale in comparison.

I know Cleric and Druid are believed to be the same. Druid I can see. Animal Companion, the very nice power of Wildshape, and full spellcasting progression are all nice. Cleric is a bit in the same ballpark as Wizard for me, but I digress.

What's so great about Wizards?

It's true they can reshape the universe to their whim, but that's provided the universe doesn't get a Will Save.

Weakness 1: Preparing spells. A wizard is dead if caught with their pants down. I have never gamed with a wizard who could actually be useful in any kind of extended dungeon because they are either overspecialized to a specific cause or so spread thin on their spell preparation that they are near useless. At least a Sorcerer can try again if the enemy saves or if there's a nasty surprise in the stone wall that was just melded into, a Wizard gets to wait 8 hours.

Weakness 2: Saves. Especially at levels 1-10, but also heavily at 10-20, every creature I randomly pull from the Monster Manual (1, 2, 3, and 4) regularly save against a Wizard. I would say that if things go well for a Wizard, they waste half their spells against successful saves. I can't count the number of battles or scenarios my Wizard (or one of my friends) has been in that the Wizard was utterly useless due to saves alone. Not one spell was effective.

Weakness 3: Buffs. With everything I hear about Gish casters and the like, I was eager to see what could be done with this. But all in all, nothing that ordinary magic items can't already do. +4 to a stat for a while? Cool! Cast it on the Crusader and he gets a whole whopping 2 to his mod! For a little while! This is not the stuff of turning the tides of battles. Haste is great for giving that extra kick for a full round attack, but most combat with a party of 4 lasts only a few rounds. If there aren't tons of enemies to wade through, these buffs might get one or two uses per casting.

There are many more I have, but I think that suffices as an overview. Now that being said, I love Wizards. Their spells can do some cool things like Meld into Stone or Reverse Gravity. Not always handy, but sometimes they're a lifesaver. Much more versatility than Sorcerers too. If you know the whole challenge ahead of time and if you have time to prepare, yes, you can own a dungeon.

My case is simply that they are rather weak in combat and only useful outside of it if they have "happened" to prepare the right spell. Compared to Tome of Battle constantly refreshable maneuvers, or Sorcerer "retries", I'm not seeing the ultimate class here.

All that said, I'm rather confused still. What am I missing about Wizards?

Well, they can learn ANY spell, so they are really only second to S2P Erudite, and Contact plane, or other divination shenanigans means prep means nothing. As do saves, since you have the right spells, so you'll never need to make one, or you could be buffed enough for a save. Also, I have a high enough stat/spell level/metamagic shenanigans/other shenanigans to ignore saves, as well as debuffs and no saves/save for halfs. In other words, a wizard is:
~anything you can do, I can do better,
I can do anything better than you~

Waker
2011-01-28, 09:00 PM
In a normal game, wizards are tremendously handy but not broken. Many times the reasoning for the broken tier 1 aspect is due to insanely paranoid character playing, where every day is spent Contacting Other Plane for asking 400 questions, adding contingencies for two dozen different scenarios and using spells that have no real reason being cast by the Wizard (like Sanctified magic from BoED).

Kyuu Himura
2011-01-28, 09:24 PM
Many times the reasoning for the broken tier 1 aspect is due to insanely paranoid character playing, where every day is spent Contacting Other Plane for asking 400 questions, adding contingencies for two dozen different scenarios and using spells that have no real reason being cast by the Wizard (like Sanctified magic from BoED).

The fact that they can do this means they are broken, sure, not every wizard player can do this, not everyone should, but the case exists.

Then you have things likeplanar raveling to the elemental plane of earth to get diamonds. Or turning cows into salt, then selling the salt so you could break the wealth by level.

And then there is the thing about binding efreets for infinite wishes.

And then there is Shape changing into a Sodar for a free wish. Every round.

And then there is replacing the warriors with summons...

And then there is replacing the stealthy guys with invisibility, find traps and knock (and blasty spells, but meh)

And then there is binding a freaking Pit Fiend so you don't actually have to do a damn thing at all...

Point is, the wizard spell list is so big and they get so many spells per level per day, that they can actually prepare spells that don't offer a save and still turn off an enemy, such as, say, forcecage.

So yeah, most not-Schroedinger wizards cannot have The right spell for the job, but they will always have at the very least one spell that handles this situation in a way that it makes it non-threatening

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-28, 09:27 PM
Weakness 1: Wizards are caught with their pants down less often than Sorcerers are exactly because they get to prepare different spells in each slot. With Focused Specialist, they prepare almost as many delicious spell slots as sorcerers (with a special advantage at odd levels, obviously), so they can cover for many more situations than the sorcerer can. The DM can always throw some out-of-the-box or (usually) fiat problems that the wizard can't solve, but the point is that it's more difficult to confound the wizard, especially in the long term, when he can simply prepare a new list. Yes, you can whittle down his spell slots, but it's more likely that your fighter is going to run out of HP first.

Weakness 2: This is why area of effect Save-or-X spells and no-save spells are preferred over single target Save-or-X. The former is much more likely to succeed against at least one foe, and the latter doesn't require a save at all. It's also important for a well-played wizard to target the right save. You don't cast Finger of Death on the Giant Blob of Hit Dice and Melee Attacks. You don't cast Dominate Person on the enemy druid. You cast Glitterdust on the orcs, Glass Strike (or Disintegrate if you want core) on the lich, and Web on the full plate clerics. Of course, there's a separate argument that the probability of the DM's creatures beating a saving throw is upwardly biased because the DM wants the fight to be more 'interesting,' but that's a DM problem, not a wizard problem.

Weakness 3: It is well known that wizards are better debuffers and battlefield controllers than they are buffers, in general. That said, Haste is almost always going to be a useful spell, and its value increases the more full attackers there are in your party. It is a fine spell to default to when (1) your other spells won't work as well for some reason or (2) you don't want to use higher level spells this combat. This argument generally applies to other wizard buffs, but don't focus on stuff like Bull's Strength. Remember, the wizard should be judged by what he's likely to take, not the weaker spells on his list. Also, you should look at War Weaver and Incantatrix. Both of those classes can make wizard buffing quite ridiculous.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-28, 10:12 PM
Weakness 1: Don't cast a spell every single round until the end of combat, only cast enough to disable/debuff most/all of the opponents and let the damage dealers in your party clean up. Often this only takes 1-2 spells per fight, so you're not going to run out all the time. Don't try to use spells to deal damage, other classes can deal damage for free so that should be their job. Your job as a wizard is to cast spells that disable or debuff the opponents so they cannot effectively fight back, something the damage dealers in your party typically aren't even capable of. When played right you shouldn't run out of spells except on a very drawn-out crawl, and even then you've got Rope Trick.

Weakness 2: Only Dragons and Outsiders have all good saves. It's not difficult to write down every creature type, what its weak saves are, and what knowledge check is used to identify that type of creature. Put at least one rank in every knowledge skill that identifies a type of monster, it doesn't take any action to roll a reactive check to identify a creature as soon as you see it, and at that point you should get a good idea of what its weak saves are. Spells like Grease, Web, Bands of Steel, Solid Fog, and Freezing Fog don't even matter what their save is, you cast it on them and they're screwed. Try to split up the opponents so your damage dealers can focus on a few at a time, take a few out of the fight for a few rounds with a web or a wall spell. Every round an opponent spends trying to get free and get back into the fight is a round they didn't spend hurting your party. A single standard action from you can make half a dozen opponents waste half a dozen rounds each, efficiency like that is what makes spells powerful.

Weakness 3: A Gish has personal-range spells like Shield, Wraithstrike, Bladeweave, and (Greater) Mirror Image, along with attack-related spells and feats like Arcane Strike and Whirling Blade, which combined with Quicken, Extend, and Persistent Spell will make him a much more dangerous combatant than any dedicated melee who doesn't have spells. For party-buffing, you've conveniently left out the workhorse: Polymorph. A Wizard 7 can Polymorph himself into an Annis Hag and be a stronger combatant than the party Fighter. He can Polymorph his party members into Cave Trolls, Behirs, and War Trolls, and suddenly they're more dangerous than the monsters they're fighting. Enlarge Person on a frontliner with clever positioning can grant dozens of extra attacks over its duration via AoOs. Haste doesn't just grant extra attacks, it makes everyone move 30 ft. faster per move, which can lead to significant tactical advantages like getting the barbarian into melee range of the enemy archers.

Knowing how to use the tools you have is the most important part of playing a powerful character, it doesn't just happen as soon as you pick that class. If you don't know how to play a powerful character, if you've never seen one played, then you probably won't realize just how well it works when done right.

AslanCross
2011-01-28, 10:44 PM
I don't think Wizards are automatically broken (never seen that kind of cheese in my games), but with proper spell selection they can get pretty nasty starting from Level 11 onwards.



Weakness 1: Preparing spells.

There are certain ways to circumvent this, the simplest being Rope Trick.


Weakness 2: Saves. Especially at levels 1-10, but also heavily at 10-20, every creature I randomly pull from the Monster Manual (1, 2, 3, and 4) regularly save against a Wizard. I would say that if things go well for a Wizard, they waste half their spells against successful saves. I can't count the number of battles or scenarios my Wizard (or one of my friends) has been in that the Wizard was utterly useless due to saves alone. Not one spell was effective.

There are a whole bunch of spells that don't require saves. Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, the Orb spells, Shivering Touch, which no longer exists in my games, among others.



Weakness 3: Buffs. With everything I hear about Gish casters and the like, I was eager to see what could be done with this. But all in all, nothing that ordinary magic items can't already do. +4 to a stat for a while? Cool! Cast it on the Crusader and he gets a whole whopping 2 to his mod! For a little while! This is not the stuff of turning the tides of battles. Haste is great for giving that extra kick for a full round attack, but most combat with a party of 4 lasts only a few rounds. If there aren't tons of enemies to wade through, these buffs might get one or two uses per casting.

This I'll grant you. However, Haste's primary draw is its boost to movement speed, and that one casting at the start of the battle will matter. But buffs like Stoneskin, Fly, Mass Fly, and Wind Wall are fairly low-level spells that can completely shut down encounters. Then there's the Polymorph spells.

Cerlis
2011-01-28, 11:06 PM
The fact that they can do this means they are broken, sure, not every wizard player can do this, not everyone should, but the case exists.

Then you have things likeplanar raveling to the elemental plane of earth to get diamonds. Or turning cows into salt, then selling the salt so you could break the wealth by level.

And then there is the thing about binding efreets for infinite wishes.

And then there is Shape changing into a Sodar for a free wish. Every round.

And then there is replacing the warriors with summons...

And then there is replacing the stealthy guys with invisibility, find traps and knock (and blasty spells, but meh)

And then there is binding a freaking Pit Fiend so you don't actually have to do a damn thing at all...

Point is, the wizard spell list is so big and they get so many spells per level per day, that they can actually prepare spells that don't offer a save and still turn off an enemy, such as, say, forcecage.

So yeah, most not-Schroedinger wizards cannot have The right spell for the job, but they will always have at the very least one spell that handles this situation in a way that it makes it non-threatening

So basically they are powerful cus some munchkins like to break the game with loopholes? what about someone who plays a skilled wizard who isnt a pri- er....munchkin.

ANd they get 4 spells per level. And half of those are wasted on stuff like Summon horse or melf's acid arrow.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-28, 11:30 PM
So basically they are powerful cus some munchkins like to break the game with loopholes? what about someone who plays a skilled wizard who isnt a pri- er....munchkin.They dominate, but do not break.


ANd they get 4 spells per level.4 spells per spell level, for free, as a baseline. There are numerous ways to increase your free spells, including (but not limited to) collegiate wizard, elven generalist, domain wizard, Master Specialist, and Mage of the Arcane Order. And there are also ways to decrease the time and cost of adding other spells, such as Geometer or the ever-popular Blessed Book. Spells known isn't going to be a problem unless the DM works to make it a problem.


And half of those are wasted on stuff like Summon horse or melf's acid arrow.This is just plain wrong. That's like saying the Fighter wastes half of his feats on Skill Focus: Speak Language.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-29, 12:13 AM
So basically they are powerful cus some munchkins like to break the game with loopholes? what about someone who plays a skilled wizard who isnt a pri- er....munchkin.

ANd they get 4 spells per level. And half of those are wasted on stuff like Summon horse or melf's acid arrow.

Breaking the game implies infinite loops and the like. Wizards are just strong, not ZOMG drown-heals.

Gorgondantess
2011-01-29, 12:24 AM
ANd they get 4 spells per level. And half of those are wasted on stuff like Summon horse or melf's acid arrow.

PPPFFFAHHHHAHAHAhahahahh... HAhahah... heheh... heh...
Melf's acid arrow. You're killing me. Real wizards prepare alter self, web and invisibility in their 2nd level spell slots.
Also, real wizards are focused specialist transmuters or conjurers. That's 6 baseline spells per day, and that's not even counting bonus from intelligence (which is at least 1 more, bare minimum). And then pearls of powers are cool, too, especially when you keep one seven for your highest level spell slot and use it on alacritous cogitation.:smallamused:

Runestar
2011-01-29, 12:38 AM
Here's an example of what a god wizard did in a game. Basically, they shine as battlefield controllers who disable the foes, leaving them vulnerable to your fighters.


1st Encounter: 6 Fire Mephits and 2 Flying Hell Hounds

In this battle, I didn't really contribute much directly, but I was able
to do what you stated.. and that's make sure everyone -else- did!

First off, I cast Fly on our heavy hitting Swashbuckler and she tore apart the
mephits and hounds. One of the mephits was trying to escape to get
reinforcements and I used my Orb of Fire to daze it and thus, keep it
from escaping.

2nd Encounter: 4 Rasts

These things were actually a pain in the butt. We had some bad rolls and
the DM was able to make three out of the four Will saves on my Slow
spell. One was upon me and tore my Mirror Images apart.

My Glitterdust
was again saved against but I was able to use Benign Transposition and
switched places with one of our other Swashbucklers who proceeded to
tear the Rast a new one.

3rd Encounter: 4 Noble Salamanders and 4 Grounded Hell Hounds

Now THIS one promised to be difficult but here is where I entirely
shined! You'd be proud!

First, while our warrior-monk was battling one
of the salamanders, I trapped one of them and three of the Hell Hounds in
a Freezing Fog. Of the remaining three Salamanders, one came for me and
our Captain (the heavy hitting Swashbuckler), one came for our scout,
and the other came for our First Mate (the Abjurant Champion
Swashbuckler).

I was able to use my Sculpted Evard's Tentacles to place
four ten foot cubes of tentacles under each of them. While the others
wailed on the remaining critters outside, I turned around and used a
Spiritwall to enclose the Freezing Fog!

Finding that the duration of the spells were both 12 minutes and the stuff outside was dead, the DM
basically ruled that the three inside would eventually die to my wicked
combo! Hehe!

dextercorvia
2011-01-29, 12:39 AM
Pearls of Power can only be used to recall a speel that was prepared then cast.

Tael
2011-01-29, 02:43 AM
The only thing I can conclude is that you've never played with a really good wizard. After all, all of your evidence is anecdotal. Let me provide some counter anecdotal evidence:

Breakdown of what I did during yesterday's session:
First, Teleport to the ruins of former BBEG's empire to get quest item.
Use Prying Eyes + various movement and Invisibility spells to completely circumvent all fights in the city surrounding the palace.
Use Arcane Eye to get a jump on guards inside the palace compound, letting me summon 2 monsters and buff before the fight, as well as open with a well placed Confusion, hitting 3/4 possible Erinyes (only have a 20% chance of passing the save, which is about average if you are smart in targeting saves)
After the alarm is raised during the fight, placed a Wall of Stone at the entrance to let us get inside the inner sanctum without being overrun by demonic orcs.
Once we get inside the Sanctum, re-seal the entrance seamlessly with Stone Shape.
Used Contact Other Plane to help solve a puzzle.
After 1 fight with undead mooks in which I just buff a bit, spend 15 minutes to prepare Halt Undead.
Halt 3/5 of the Undead King's guards, greatly reducing enemies faced at one time, and summoning an angel which not only is a capable combatant, but also provides a passive Magic Circle Against Evil. Then finishing the fight on 3rd turn with a Quickened (rod) Empowered Scorching Ray, and an Empowered Maximised (rod) Scorching Ray.
Finally identified all the loot and hid the party in a rope trick while we slept for the night.


And all of this was done in one day as a level 10 core wizard. No broken crap, I could have been using ridiculous things like Planar Binding and Magic Jar. No, this was just 1 wizard being played intelligently. And I still had quite a few spells left.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-29, 02:51 AM
I find it fitting that your wizard is literally summoning angels. I don't suppose any members of your party were good with a BMX?

Tael
2011-01-29, 03:09 AM
I find it fitting that your wizard is literally summoning angels. I don't suppose any members of your party were good with a BMX?

:smallbiggrin: The rogue was pretty useless. I think he had some points in Ride (BMX)... :smalltongue:
It was only Summon Monster V, so the Paladin was outclassing it in melee (PF paladins are actually pretty good), but the main thing was that I only spent 1 turn to have it act for 3 turns, and get a free 3rd level spell of as well.

umbrapolaris
2011-01-29, 03:32 AM
this forum and some others are mostly populated by optimizers and metagamers, so the wizard are seems broken. in most of games, people just choose the fluffy spells without even realize the true potential of others.

and i always repeat, Wizard are not broken or overpowerful, just some spells.

in d&d, spellcasters are "living" magic items, other classes can use magic items or scrolls to be versatile as a wizard.

Curious
2011-01-29, 03:37 AM
I wouldn't say that every person on these boards is an optimizer, it's just that the easy game-breakers the wizard throws around are so easy to spot and publicize that everyone knows about it. And really, the fact that most people don't optimize doesn't make the wizard unbroken; as long as they can continue to shatter game balance at will, they are still broken.

MeeposFire
2011-01-29, 03:38 AM
So basically they are powerful cus some munchkins like to break the game with loopholes? what about someone who plays a skilled wizard who isnt a pri- er....munchkin.

ANd they get 4 spells per level. And half of those are wasted on stuff like Summon horse or melf's acid arrow.

Munchkin normally implies that they are breaking the rules and while this happens a lot with wizards due to a lot of factors the stuff people are listing so far are legit and by the rules. The wizard is the ultimate thinking man's class since it can destroy encounters by changing reality unlike most other classes.

I know many people who can play a wizard and be virtually untouchable after hitting mid levels and are not being munchkins.

And good wizards never waste spells on summon horse (phantom steed maybe).

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-29, 03:38 AM
So, wizards aren't broken... their class features are. And only "metagamers" (failed pejorative) and "optimizers" (same) can make a wizard overpowered. Right...

And as far as the last part, show me a magic item that can give you as many spells as a wizard. Show me any level where WBL can replicate a wizard.

MeeposFire
2011-01-29, 03:40 AM
So, wizards aren't broken... their class features are. And only "metagamers" (failed pejorative) and "optimizers" (same) can make a wizard overpowered. Right...

And as far as the last part, show me a magic item that can give you as many spells as a wizard. Show me any level where WBL can replicate a wizard.

No their class features are fine (if too small). It is the power of individual spells themselves. If spells did not do what they do wizards would not be broken. Warmages are not broken despite having 9th level spells and more class features.

Curious
2011-01-29, 03:42 AM
The sad part is, you can't really change the wizard without making the class into something that is so far removed from 3.5 that it becomes unrecognizable. As long as the wizard is capable of bending reality over his knee he will always be capable of doing everything the other classes can, unless you go the route that 4e took. I've actually been thinking of making wizards in my games 'cast from hitpoints', but I'm not sure that would be fair to the people currently in my game, who don't really optimize. . . Well, at all.

umbrapolaris
2011-01-29, 03:51 AM
No their class features are fine (if too small). It is the power of individual spells themselves. If spells did not do what they do wizards would not be broken. Warmages are not broken despite having 9th level spells and more class features.

+1, the class itself is very weak, all his low even the number of feats. but MAGIC is powerful. i am a skinny guy with a gun , your are a martial artist , i one shot you coz i have technology.

a 20th fighter, at that stage he is normally a king with leadership and co, he should have a wizard companion of same level, crafting all the scrolls , rings or stuff needed for adventuring. so he is versatile, but less than the wizard.

MeeposFire
2011-01-29, 03:54 AM
Limit wizards and other casters to 5th or 6th level spells and they do not dominate and you give all their other higher level slots as general slots to fill as needed. Would not please most wizard players though as we hate being limited.

Runestar
2011-01-29, 04:59 AM
this forum and some others are mostly populated by optimizers and metagamers, so the wizard are seems broken. in most of games, people just choose the fluffy spells without even realize the true potential of others.

That's like saying a class isn't overpowered because some people play it as a mere fraction of its true power. Shouldn't we be looking at what it can do, at its peak potential?

I mean, at what...7th lv, I was already locking down the entire battlefield with a single casting of evard's tentacles and stinking cloud, leaving all the foes nauseated and/or grappled. I have not jumped through loops, used any questionable rules interpretations or utilised some weird combo spanning 10+ splatbooks. Just 2 core only spells, as they are written.


a 20th fighter, at that stage he is normally a king with leadership and co, he should have a wizard companion of same level, crafting all the scrolls , rings or stuff needed for adventuring. so he is versatile, but less than the wizard.

By that logic, my lv20 wiz could also have a lv17 wiz cohort via leadership, and enjoy all the benefits as your 20th lv fighter.

The end result is still the same; lv20 wiz + lv17 wiz > lv20 fighter + lv17 wiz.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-29, 05:54 AM
My point was that spellcasting is the wizard's main class feature, so if the spells are broken, the wizard's main class feature is broken. If the wizard's main class feature is broken, the wizard is broken.

umbrapolaris
2011-01-29, 06:09 AM
That's like saying a class isn't overpowered because some people play it as a mere fraction of its true power. Shouldn't we be looking at what it can do, at its peak potential?

I mean, at what...7th lv, I was already locking down the entire battlefield with a single casting of evard's tentacles and stinking cloud, leaving all the foes nauseated and/or grappled. I have not jumped through loops, used any questionable rules interpretations or utilised some weird combo spanning 10+ splatbooks. Just 2 core only spells, as they are written.

magic is overpowered in ad&d, ad&d 2e, and d&d 3.x. not the class itself. we knew that since the beginning. if i didnt like that , i will play cthulu or another low magic game. i dont say that you should change into another game, just remove all the spells that you consider broken or overpoweful; and dont forget that if you can cast a uber spell, the mobs can do it too.


The end result is still the same; lv20 wiz + lv17 wiz > lv20 fighter + lv17 wiz.

it is true, but it is not what i want to say, give versatile magic to any character it will become verstaile like a wizard (surely at a lesser level).

IMO, d&d is not a pvp game , where you compare the different classes between each other for balance.

in all edition of d&d, the casters are always the most important part of the group, via magic they can do what the other can't. that is why the spell section occupy 1/3 of the player handbook.

initially d&d is a game centered upon magic. after you are free to houserule it at your convenience.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-29, 06:31 AM
D&D 1st to 3rd edition was a pvp-game for sure, because most worthwile enemies were also using class levels. In 3rd edition, this degenerated to the point that the more dangerous beings amongst the true chromatic dragons like the blue and the red ones were nothing more but sorcerer/clerics with lots of hit points and already shapechanged into dragon form, and the simplest way to make something more dangerous was to give them class levels (preferably in a spellcasting class).

And that's why the game breaks down, when the gm is forced to play an NPC wizard against a PC wizard, and the non-spellcasting player characters were sitting down and watching stuff blow up.

umbrapolaris
2011-01-29, 06:39 AM
D&D 1st to 3rd edition was a pvp-game for sure, because most worthwile enemies were also using class levels. In 3rd edition, this degenerated to the point that the more dangerous beings amongst the true chromatic dragons like the blue and the red ones were nothing more but sorcerer/clerics with lots of hit points and already shapechanged into dragon form, and the simplest way to make something more dangerous was to give them class levels (preferably in a spellcasting class).

And that's why the game breaks down, when the gm is forced to play an NPC wizard against a PC wizard, and the non-spellcasting player characters were sitting down and watching stuff blow up.

i meant a fighter vs a caster, etc...

as u said generally in d&d , casters focus casters, rogues focus weakened enemies, fighter focus the big guy, etc...

mostlyharmful
2011-01-29, 07:13 AM
So, wizards aren't broken... their class features are. And only "metagamers" (failed pejorative) and "optimizers" (same) can make a wizard overpowered. Right...

And as far as the last part, show me a magic item that can give you as many spells as a wizard. Show me any level where WBL can replicate a wizard.

very easy to do... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation)

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-29, 07:32 AM
very easy to do... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation)Touché. The general point still stands, though.

umbrapolaris
2011-01-29, 07:38 AM
i remember an item in ad&d 2e called the black rock (or something like that) that give necromaner spellcasting abilities at your level.

Runestar
2011-01-29, 08:46 AM
i remember an item in ad&d 2e called the black rock (or something like that) that give necromaner spellcasting abilities at your level.

Sounds familiar. Was it the one where one of your kin would die every few days or something?

umbrapolaris
2011-01-29, 08:59 AM
Sounds familiar. Was it the one where one of your kin would die every few days or something?

exactly. very interesting item (rp view ^^) seems they were influenced by Stormbringer & Elric ^^

candycorn
2011-01-29, 09:02 AM
I had a player in one of the games I was in that had never played a wizard before. He wanted help making his character, so I asked him what kind of things he wanted to do. He answered that he wanted to control fights.

I told him that the specialist schools most focused on control are conjuration and enchantment. Conjuration focused on putting physical impediments up, whether it be a wall, or a slippery floor, or a cloud, and could also call creatures to fight for you. Enchantment focused on taking control of enemies and using them for your own purpose.

He wasn't too keen on summoning or mind control, so he went conjurer, with a focus on the non-summoning side. He had spell focus and greater spell focus at level 3, and was a lesser tiefling (DM showed it to him, since it fit with the rest of the party being things like hellbred, and he liked it). No crazy optimization, though he did have a 20 intelligence (after the +2 racial modifier).

At level 3, the character did the following:
*dominated a group of 4 ogres, using one casting of grease, and 1 casting of glitterdust. (Reflex DC 18 and Will DC 19, respectively, vs Ogre Reflex +0 and Will +1). Note: This is a CR 7 encounter. The party was aware of the ogres first, but that's only because the starting distance was fairly far, and the wizard moderately dextrous, so had a decent hide vs the ogres.

*brought melee to a group of 8 poison dusk lizardfolk archers on a rooftop (baleful transposition), allowing that fighter to start mauling, then protected the rest of the group from arrows with a Wall of Smoke.

* shielded the party from a hidden sniping rogue (level 3 goblin, using a sleep poison) and a fire throwing druid (goblin, level 3, using produce flame) with Obscuring Mist, then Glitterdust on the rogue.

EDIT: Note, this isn't incredible optimization. Just wise use of good spells.

Acanous
2011-01-29, 09:18 AM
hey, "Mount" is a fine example of why Conjuration is possibly the most powerful school [only contested by Transmutation].

You get an adult horse, poofed into existance, anywhere you like within 25 feet +5 feet per spell level.

Do you know how much a horse weighs? Ever consulted the falling damage table?

a 15 foot fall isn't much, but a horse is heavy, and a lv 1 wizard can drop it on you. The spell descriptor states save: None and and SR: No.

"Horses fall everyone dies".

Fox Box Socks
2011-01-29, 09:25 AM
I was under the impression that one of the changes from 3e to 3.5 was getting rid of the ability to summon monsters without a fly speed in mid-air, if only to stop people from dropping blue whales on people.

What frustrates me about Wizards is that optimizing them can come almost by accident. 90% of their absurdly powerful spells are right there in the Player's Handbook. Multiple times, in multiple games, with people who didn't know each other, I've had Wizards become so absurdly strong that they've warped the game around them (Yeah, all those Drow have Mind Blank. And Death Ward. All the time). And it's happened not because the guy playing the Wizard wanted to build the most ridiculously powerful Wizard he could, but because he just went through the PHB and picked out the spells he thought looked neat or interesting or useful.

umbrapolaris
2011-01-29, 09:28 AM
"Horses fall everyone dies".

i never thought about this... :smallbiggrin:

@candycorn: i dont think the rest of the party seems frustrated by this effective player. im right?

The Glyphstone
2011-01-29, 09:44 AM
Sadly, the whalehorse bomb isn't workable.


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

I believe it was added in the 3.5 update because people were using whales as projectile bombs.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-29, 09:54 AM
Yep.

http://darthsanddroids.net/comics/darths0208.jpg

Z3ro
2011-01-29, 10:32 AM
I do find this thread amusing from one standpoint: after reading several people's descriptions of what a basic wizard did to control combat, it only reinforces that I still find that play style boring and would stay away from full casters at just about all costs. But to each their own.

Amphetryon
2011-01-29, 10:33 AM
A Wizard vs. Party combat was posted to BG a while back:

The party: Human Crusader 6 with Stone Power focused on Devoted Spirit, Human Sorcerer 6 with heavy draconic feat focus and blaster-orientation, Changeling ranged Fighter 2/Ranger 4 with Distracting Attack instead of companion, Kalashtar Kineticist 4/Swordsage 2, Elf Paladin 6 who had yet to call a mount, Rogue 1 /Shaper 4 headed to Ebon Saint. Not present were a Human Bard 6, and a TWF Human Ranger with a wolf.

The NPC: Sun Elf Wizard 7 with Extra Spell, an Item Creation feat (wand went unused), and Improved Init.

The slaughter: The party is on a small island that they know used to be occupied by wizards, long ago, to help the NPCs who are collecting the MacGuffin that grows only there. Passive Spot/Listen checks (I assume an 11 plus their modifiers) vs the NPC let him act unseen. He chugs a Potion of Invisibility. Initiative is rolled; Wizard's initiative order has him go second, but because the Kineticist doesn't see or hear him, he waits and Wizard acts. Wizard casts Solid Fog, aimed to snare the whole party. The party inches away from each other toward the edges of the fog, with the Crusader being closest to the outside. Though they had just come from a fairly large city, none had invested in FoM or similar.

Round 2, Kineticist moves closer to the edge of the fog, and Wizard casts Evard's Black Tentacles into the center of the fog. A random roll in the open for positioning says it snares everyone but the Paladin and Crusader. Failed Escape Artist checks for those in the tentacles, Crusader gets to the edge but not out of the fog, and the Paladin shouts to tell the Kineticist - who has dimension swap - that he's free as the others communicate their plight.

Round 3, successful Concentration check and the Kineticist swaps places with the Paladin, who is better able to soak the grapple damage. Wizard casts Alter Self - Wings. Party takes damage from Tentacles as appropriate. Paladin makes a miraculous Escape Artist check. Crusader steps out of the fog and cannot locate Wizard.

Round 4, Kineticist moves to the edge of the fog. Vortex of Teeth from Wizard hits the whole party, dropping the Sorcerer and Shaper when coupled with Tentacles damage. Paladin moves closer to edge, while the Ranger fails Escape Artist check. Crusader is unable to target Wizard effectively.

Round 5, Kineticist recovers a few HP, then drops from Vortex of Teeth damage, which couples with the Tentacles to take out everyone but the Crusader. Lesser Orb of Frost hits Crusader, and he's down.
It wasn't a close fight.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-29, 10:33 AM
hey, "Mount" is a fine example of why Conjuration is possibly the most powerful school [only contested by Transmutation].
a 15 foot fall isn't much, but a horse is heavy, and a lv 1 wizard can drop it on you. The spell descriptor states save: None and and SR: No.

"Horses fall everyone dies".

Sadly, it is Conjuration and they say only summon where you can support it. Now you can make them (horsies) appear on a ledge and have horse jump on them, but not directly over them.

And why aren't the OP wizard using scrolls? Creating them is a class feature.

Tael
2011-01-29, 10:51 AM
I do find this thread amusing from one standpoint: after reading several people's descriptions of what a basic wizard did to control combat, it only reinforces that I still find that play style boring and would stay away from full casters at just about all costs. But to each their own.

:smallconfused: What do you mean? The fact that you don't kill very many people as a wizard? The disabling enemies? What don't you like about controller wizards?

Z3ro
2011-01-29, 10:58 AM
:smallconfused: What do you mean? The fact that you don't kill very many people as a wizard? The disabling enemies? What don't you like about controller wizards?

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not, so I'll answer as if it were serious. Here's what I don't like about controlling wizards: I'm sure when some people read something like this


*brought melee to a group of 8 poison dusk lizardfolk archers on a rooftop (baleful transposition), allowing that fighter to start mauling, then protected the rest of the group from arrows with a Wall of Smoke.


they thought to themselves "wow, that wizard really wrecked that encounter". I thought "wow, that fighter really wrecked those archers". Just a different perspective; I prefer the killing end of the equation.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-29, 11:01 AM
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not, so I'll answer as if it were serious. Here's what I don't like about controlling wizards: I'm sure when some people read something like this



they thought to themselves "wow, that wizard really wrecked that encounter". I thought "wow, that fighter really wrecked those archers". Just a different perspective; I prefer the killing end of the equation.

Yes, but without the wizard magic the Fighter never would have done it. Not all wizards are boastful. A good leader knows when to let other take their credit and be humble. The wizard acted like a great leader.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-29, 11:08 AM
A fighter becomes a glorified janitor in that situation, and could be replaced by an NPC warrior (the one with d8-hit dices and no bonus feats). And no amount of delusions will change this, once people realize that the enemies can't do anything at all anymore.

WarKitty
2011-01-29, 11:21 AM
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not, so I'll answer as if it were serious. Here's what I don't like about controlling wizards: I'm sure when some people read something like this



they thought to themselves "wow, that wizard really wrecked that encounter". I thought "wow, that fighter really wrecked those archers". Just a different perspective; I prefer the killing end of the equation.

Eh, I find most melee characters boring. You don't have options. If my only choices were between "move and attack" and "stand still and full attack," I'd spend the entire combat playing on the computer. It's not like I'd need to be paying attention to do anything...

Greenish
2011-01-29, 11:39 AM
I was under the impression that one of the changes from 3e to 3.5 was getting rid of the ability to summon monsters without a fly speed in mid-air, if only to stop people from dropping blue whales on people.That's also why they added the line about only using aquatic summons in aquatic environments. :smallbiggrin:

I do find this thread amusing from one standpoint: after reading several people's descriptions of what a basic wizard did to control combat, it only reinforces that I still find that play style boring and would stay away from full casters at just about all costs. But to each their own.No one is saying that you should play a wizard, just explaining why wizards are powerful.

I prefer ToB, gishes and half-casters myself, but that doesn't make wizards any weaker.

dsmiles
2011-01-29, 11:39 AM
Eh, I find most melee characters boring. You don't have options. If my only choices were between "move and attack" and "stand still and full attack," I'd spend the entire combat playing on the computer. It's not like I'd need to be paying attention to do anything...

Isn't that what ToB's for?

Z3ro
2011-01-29, 11:41 AM
Yes, but without the wizard magic the Fighter never would have done it. Not all wizards are boastful. A good leader knows when to let other take their credit and be humble. The wizard acted like a great leader.

Never said otherwise; I just said I'd rather be the fighter than the wizard in that situation.


A fighter becomes a glorified janitor in that situation, and could be replaced by an NPC warrior (the one with d8-hit dices and no bonus feats). And no amount of delusions will change this, once people realize that the enemies can't do anything at all anymore.

I don't see the big deal wether it's a warrior or a fighter, it's still fun. I enjoy playing interesting characters, and a bunch of class features are just one way to make them interesting. Also, I don't understand your last sentence.


Eh, I find most melee characters boring. You don't have options. If my only choices were between "move and attack" and "stand still and full attack," I'd spend the entire combat playing on the computer. It's not like I'd need to be paying attention to do anything...

If that's all you would ever do as a fighter then I can see how it would be boring.


No one is saying that you should play a wizard, just explaining why wizards are powerful.


Never said they said I should. Just expressing my opinion.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-29, 11:43 AM
No one is saying that you should play a wizard, just explaining why wizards are powerful.

I prefer ToB, gishes and half-casters myself, but that doesn't make wizards any weaker.
I also perfer having my cake and eating: being a gish.

Greenish
2011-01-29, 11:50 AM
Never said they said I should. Just expressing my opinion.Sorry, I thought you're trying to make a comment on the topic of the thread, and thus misread your post.

WarKitty
2011-01-29, 11:52 AM
Isn't that what ToB's for?

Yes. I was talking about the given situation however.



If that's all you would ever do as a fighter then I can see how it would be boring.

Well what else would you do with a fighter? You don't exactly have the skill points to be learning a bunch of tricks...

DeltaEmil
2011-01-29, 11:54 AM
I wouldn't want to be either once the wizard has effectively won the combat by nullifying the enemies' ability to be a danger in one way or the other.
Rolling how you hit a guy with a sword that cannot move, fight back, use his special schtick or just be exciting is a waste of time for everybody on the gaming table, even for the melee guy, and then that time could as well be used for social encounters or better fights.
Moping up like a janitor is moping up as a janitor, even if you're called a fighter, wizard, rogue, warblade, clericzilla, or a commoner.
Being the fighter guy is only exciting if the wizard doesn't actually succeed in making the poison lizardfolk archer-monster-thingies worthless, and he (and the other guys in the party) make an "Oh-snap"-expression. That's the time for fighter-heroes to show that they're made of sterner stuff and will save the day, unless the monsters were so underpowered anyway that they become unexciting once more, leading to the same problem in the first place.

Z3ro
2011-01-29, 12:02 PM
Well what else would you do with a fighter? You don't exactly have the skill points to be learning a bunch of tricks...

The first part is tactically thinking. Yes, you can move and or attack or just attack, but it's where you do those things that make it interesting. Charge ahead and break up the enemy formation, or manuever around back and hit the enemies from the rear? It's like chess, and I love chess.

The second part is the same as any other character. Throw around tanglefoot bags, but out whips or nets, lay down some caltrops. Sky's the limit.


I wouldn't want to be either once the wizard has effectively won the combat by nullifying the enemies' ability to be a danger in one way or the other.
Rolling how you hit a guy with a sword that cannot move, fight back, use his special schtick or just be exciting is a waste of time for everybody on the gaming table, even for the melee guy, and then that time could as well be used for social encounters or better fights.
Moping up like a janitor is moping up as a janitor, even if you're called a fighter, wizard, rogue, warblade, clericzilla, or a commoner.
Being the fighter guy is only exciting if the wizard doesn't actually succeed in making the poison lizardfolk archer-monster-thingies worthless, and he (and the other guys in the party) make an "Oh-snap"-expression. That's the time for fighter-heroes to show that they're made of sterner stuff and will save the day, unless the monsters were so underpowered anyway that they become unexciting once more, leading to the same problem in the first place.

So when you play, after the wizard casts his spell, you just declare the combat over, or groan about how you have to make a bunch of meaningless combat rolls? To each their own, I guess.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-29, 12:30 PM
So when you play, after the wizard casts his spell, you just declare the combat over, or groan about how you have to make a bunch of meaningless combat rolls? To each their own, I guess.Yes, exactly. Wasting time is wasting time. Of course, it's (also) the job of the gm in that case to recognize that rolling mop-up is a waste of time, and to nip in the bud any such time-wasting activities that are effectively delaying a foregone conclusion. Unless the monsters get reinforcements just in time to make combat exciting again, or can somehow break out from the effects that are constraining them fast enough, what is the point of rolling attacks?

That doesn't of course make wizards cool. It only shows that yes, they won the fight, and not the fighter. However, being a janitor who mops up isn't cool. Killing unexciting and basically toothless goons is a job for Aquaman (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThisLooksLikeAJobForAquaman).

Fox Box Socks
2011-01-29, 12:33 PM
I've found that "power" really translates to "importance" in 3.5, especially when it comes to class balance issues.

In general, the Wizard is more important than the Fighter. What the Wizard does on a round-by-round basis matters more than what the Fighter does on a round-by-round basis. Taking out three or four guys with Sleep or incapacitating a whole group of baddies with Grease or taking a guy clear out of the fight with Hold Person or Phantasmal Killer just has more of an impact than whether or not the Fighter hits with his charge.

If the Wizard casts Fly on the Fighter then Web on a group of orcs so the Fighter can soar around chopping them to bits while they're incapacitated, that's not the Fighter doing a damn fine job. That's the Wizard making the Fighter's job pathetically easy.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-29, 12:41 PM
Killing unexciting and basically toothless goons is a job for Aquaman (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThisLooksLikeAJobForAquaman).

Aquaman controls any creature in the sea. Yes, that includes Cthulhu and most of his mythos. Heart is the strongest power= mind control.
Later they made him a Bard (ability to make others inspired/stronger in ways no one else can).

Axolotl
2011-01-29, 12:50 PM
Aquaman controls any creature in the sea. Yes, that includes Cthulhu and most of his mythos. Cthulhu isn't in the sea, he's under the sea.

The main thing about wizards (and most other casters) is that they just become more relevant at higher levels while non-casters just become less and less relevant. Sure a fighter can fight at high levels but the thing is as you get higher level fighting simply becomes less relevant.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-29, 12:50 PM
Yes. But unfortunately, Superman already defeated the evil shark-men and Cthulhu by trapping them in an iceberg or a giant whirlpool, or something like that. Aquaman is free to summon fish and bring away the giant iceberg with the evil shark-men and Cthulhu inside to Atlantis or perhaps Philadelphia. Gotham would be nice too, Batman needs a new challenge after the Joker has been apprehended by the police once again. :smalltongue:

Now, if Cthulhu had kryptonite, that would change things...
(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KryptoniteIsEverywhere)

Fox Box Socks
2011-01-29, 12:57 PM
Aquaman can use his ability to talk to fish to actually exert some measure of control over people. Since mammals are, in fact, descended from fish, there are parts of the human brain that are remarkably similar, if not identical, to the brains of our piscine ancestors, specifically the basal ganglia, a nerve cluster near the center of the brain.

The long and short of it is that Aquaman can and has used his "I can talk to fish" ability to telepathically induce seizures in people. This is not something that I am making up, this is not theoretical conjecture, this is something that actually happened in the comics.

dsmiles
2011-01-29, 12:59 PM
Cthulhu isn't in the sea, he's under the sea (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgA2xo0HYrE). FTFY. :smalltongue:

Z3ro
2011-01-29, 01:03 PM
Yes, exactly. Wasting time is wasting time. Of course, it's (also) the job of the gm in that case to recognize that rolling mop-up is a waste of time, and to nip in the bud any such time-wasting activities that are effectively delaying a foregone conclusion. Unless the monsters get reinforcements just in time to make combat exciting again, or can somehow break out from the effects that are constraining them fast enough, what is the point of rolling attacks?

That doesn't of course make wizards cool. It only shows that yes, they won the fight, and not the fighter. However, being a janitor who mops up isn't cool. Killing unexciting and basically toothless goons is a job for Aquaman (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThisLooksLikeAJobForAquaman).

Different groups play differently, I guess. Though I would argue that the DM who lets an entire encounter be defeated by one spell is no less doing his job properly.

Axolotl
2011-01-29, 01:03 PM
The long and short of it is that Aquaman can and has used his "I can talk to fish" ability to telepathically induce seizures in people. This is not something that I am making up, this is not theoretical conjecture, this is something that actually happened in the comics.But that doesn't stop it being an obvious stretch to try and make the character vaguely relevant. If anything the fact that the only way in which aquaman can even try and compete requires the writers to reinterpret "speak to fish" to mean "psychic stun on humans" should stand as evidence to the sheer pointlessness of aquaman's character concept in relation to stories he's sipposed to take part in.

tyckspoon
2011-01-29, 01:13 PM
But that doesn't stop it being an obvious stretch to try and make the character vaguely relevant. If anything the fact that the only way in which aquaman can even try and compete requires the writers to reinterpret "speak to fish" to mean "psychic stun on humans" should stand as evidence to the sheer pointlessness of aquaman's character concept in relation to stories he's sipposed to take part in.

I'm pretty sure he's also been given the standard 'superhuman strength and toughness' package, which lets him be generally relevant but doesn't really make him an interesting character to follow. Which brings us back to the Fighter analogy, really- you can build them for really high damage output, and you can make them pretty durable, but what you do still tends to boil down to 'I hit stuff'.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-29, 01:31 PM
Different groups play differently, I guess. Though I would argue that the DM who lets an entire encounter be defeated by one spell is no less doing his job properly.I do guess that you mean "not doing his job properly", in which case I concur. However, the problem is, D&D-magic has tons of spells that are "I-win"-buttons, and they exist because people really believe that the lowly hp, mediocre save and bad attack abilities of the wizard would balance it out.

And that leads back to the original question of this topic, which is what's so "great" about wizards. Their "weakness" is irrelevant, because they've caused the party to win the combat encounters almost single-handedly with one or two spells (and there's tons of spells that don't simply tip the scale, but crush it decisively to their side), making fighters practically irrelevant and reducing him to a janitor to clean up after everything's over. Like the cops in a superhero story who take away the bad-guys, after Spiderman or Batman have roughed them up again.

Z3ro
2011-01-29, 01:47 PM
I do guess that you mean "not doing his job properly", in which case I concur. However, the problem is, D&D-magic has tons of spells that are "I-win"-buttons, and they exist because people really believe that the lowly hp, mediocre save and bad attack abilities of the wizard would balance it out.

And that leads back to the original question of this topic, which is what's so "great" about wizards. Their "weakness" is irrelevant, because they've caused the party to win the combat encounters almost single-handedly with one or two spells (and there's tons of spells that don't simply tip the scale, but crush it decisively to their side), making fighters practically irrelevant and reducing him to a janitor to clean up after everything's over. Like the cops in a superhero story who take away the bad-guys, after Spiderman or Batman have roughed them up again.

Though as I stated, many of the "I win" spells require DM cooperation, typically in the form of tactics by the bad guys. I mean really, in a world where even low-level wizard can cast spells like sleep and grease, I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination that low-level mooks would have tactics to counter such spells.

Intelligently played bad guys help reduce the wizard from "I always win" to "I contribute my part in every fight", and I'm fine with that.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-29, 01:49 PM
Though as I stated, many of the "I win" spells require DM cooperation, typically in the form of tactics by the bad guys. I mean really, in a world where even low-level wizard can cast spells like sleep and grease, I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination that low-level mooks would have tactics to counter such spells.

Intelligently played bad guys help reduce the wizard from "I always win" to "I contribute my part in every fight", and I'm fine with that.

How do you counter grease other than having 5 ranks in balance?

dsmiles
2011-01-29, 01:51 PM
Though as I stated, many of the "I win" spells require DM cooperation, typically in the form of tactics by the bad guys. I mean really, in a world where even low-level wizard can cast spells like sleep and grease, I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination that low-level mooks would have tactics to counter such spells.

Intelligently played bad guys help reduce the wizard from "I always win" to "I contribute my part in every fight", and I'm fine with that.

However, not all bad guys are intelligent. Non-free-willed undead, most animals, many magical beasts, oozes/slimes/jellies, etc.

Greenish
2011-01-29, 01:52 PM
How do you counter grease other than having 5 ranks in balance?Fly! Bonus points: also counters the fighter!

Z3ro
2011-01-29, 01:58 PM
How do you counter grease other than having 5 ranks in balance?

Ambushes, not grouping everyone in together, and flying are easy ways. Also taking advantage of the terrain.


However, not all bad guys are intelligent. Non-free-willed undead, most animals, many magical beasts, oozes/slimes/jellies, etc.

True, but many of these (such as undead) autocounter spells like sleep and glitterdust.

Greenish
2011-01-29, 02:01 PM
True, but many of these (such as undead) autocounter spells like sleep and glitterdust.Glitterdust works just fine on undead (it doesn't target fort, is not mind-affecting, and undead [type] provides no special detection capabilities independent of sight).

Z3ro
2011-01-29, 02:10 PM
Glitterdust works just fine on undead (it doesn't target fort, is not mind-affecting, and undead [type] provides no special detection capabilities independent of sight).

Sure, for things like zombies and skeletons, but not things like shadows and wraiths.

Fox Box Socks
2011-01-29, 02:12 PM
Ambushes, not grouping everyone in together, and flying are easy ways. Also taking advantage of the terrain.
Both of those also screw Fighters, most of whom take Cleave and spec for melee.

Also, this conversation is somewhere between Oberoni Fallacy and Perfect Solution Fallacy. "Wizards are not very strong because the DM can throw encounters at the party that screw Wizards" just isn't a very strong argument.

Greenish
2011-01-29, 02:14 PM
Sure, for things like zombies and skeletons, but not things like shadows and wraiths.Glitterdust works just fine on shadows and wraiths, better than anything fighters can throw at them.

Z3ro
2011-01-29, 02:18 PM
Also, this conversation is somewhere between Oberoni Fallacy and Perfect Solution Fallacy. "Wizards are not very strong because the DM can throw encounters at the party that screw Wizards" just isn't a very strong argument.

Actually, I think it is. Arguing that a drag racer is a poor car because it doesn't do well off-roading is not a point against it. If the game is played poorly, then of course things won't work right.


Glitterdust works just fine on shadows and wraiths, better than anything fighters can throw at them.

The spell conjures non-magical particals, how is it affecting incorpreal undead?

Greenish
2011-01-29, 02:21 PM
The spell conjures non-magical particals, how is it affecting incorpreal undead?Same way as other spells, by beating the 50% incorporeal miss chance.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-29, 02:23 PM
Actually, I think it is. Arguing that a drag racer is a poor car because it doesn't do well off-roading is not a point against it. If the game is played poorly, then of course things won't work right.



The spell conjures non-magical particals, how is it affecting incorpreal undead?

They are magical. If they weren't they would'nt have a duration:
If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm

ScionoftheVoid
2011-01-29, 02:24 PM
Actually, I think it is. Arguing that a drag racer is a poor car because it doesn't do well off-roading is not a point against it. If the game is played poorly, then of course things won't work right.

If you have to specifically counter a class, it's probably too strong. Do you ever have to specifically counter a Fighter, or Barbarian? A Monk, or Ranger? Paladin, even?


The spell conjures non-magical particals, how is it affecting incorpreal undead?

Where are you getting that the particles are non-magical? They're magical enough to wink out in an AMF, but not to affect incorporeal beings? How would that work?

Axolotl
2011-01-29, 02:28 PM
Actually, I think it is. Arguing that a drag racer is a poor car because it doesn't do well off-roading is not a point against it. If the game is played poorly, then of course things won't work right. What? If every encounter has to be given an arbitrary reason why the Wizard can't just cast a spell that defeats everything then it's a sign wizards are too powerful.


The spell conjures non-magical particals, how is it affecting incorpreal undead?How are they non-magical? Also Incorperal enemies are a really bad example of situations where the Wizard doesn't dominate because they're enemies designed so that non-casters can't do anything to them.

Z3ro
2011-01-29, 02:29 PM
If you have to specifically counter a class, it's probably too strong. Do you ever have to specifically counter a Fighter, or Barbarian? A Monk, or Ranger? Paladin, even?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I have had to come up with tactics to counter non-wizards (rough terrain for chargers is just the first thing that comes to mind, there are plenty of others).



Where are you getting that the particles are non-magical? They're magical enough to wink out in an AMF, but not to affect incorporeal beings? How would that work?

I should know better than to get a rule wrong on these boards, lest I feel the correction wrath. I stand corrected.

Fox Box Socks
2011-01-29, 02:33 PM
Actually, I think it is. Arguing that a drag racer is a poor car because it doesn't do well off-roading is not a point against it. If the game is played poorly, then of course things won't work right.
By that logic, Paladins are weak because the DM can choose to only set them against Neutral and Good combatants. The Rogue is weak because the DM can repeatedly throw monsters that are immune to Sneak Attack at him. The Druid is weak because the DM can trap him in a 5 foot hallway with hordes of Kobolds carrying Beast Killer short swords. A Cleric is weak because the DM can make sure that for each and every encounter, someone is holding a wand of Dispel Magic. The Fighter is weak because if the specs for melee, he could only fight flying enemies, and if he specs for ranged he could only fight grapplers.

That's not actually how the game works. In all my years of playing, I have yet to come across a single DM that would single out a certain player and repeatedly throw at him encounters where his character would be next to useless. Sure, people do that once in a while, but that's not something you base whole campaigns off of. Moreover, you don't need to be the shining star in each and every encounter to be the strongest guy at the table.

The Wizard's main strength (and the main strength of all prepared casters, really) is versatility. Party's fighting mostly flying enemies that don't want to clump? The Wizard simply switches from his AoE debuffs to his single-target debuffs like Hold Person, Charm Monster, Phantasmal Killer, Flesh to Stone, Dominate, etc. He can choose to prepare spells for clumped monsters, choose to prepare spells for single targets, or even choose to prepare spells for both.

If the DM doesn't want to play ball with the Wizard, the Wizard simply changes tactics. The Fighter...can't.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-29, 02:36 PM
I should know better than to get a rule wrong on these boards, lest I feel the correction wrath. I stand corrected.

It is okay. I thought maybe you were thinking because ity was SR no it was non-magical, but that short cut doesn't apply unless it is instantaneous duration.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-01-29, 02:39 PM
Yes, as a matter of fact, I have had to come up with tactics to counter non-wizards (rough terrain for chargers is just the first thing that comes to mind, there are plenty of others).

If you had failed to provide a counter would it have had as large an effect as failing to counter a Wizard? Sorry if this is being pushy, but I would like to know.


I should know better than to get a rule wrong on these boards, lest I feel the correction wrath. I stand corrected.

Sorry about that.

Z3ro
2011-01-29, 03:13 PM
By that logic, Paladins are weak because the DM can choose to only set them against Neutral and Good combatants. The Rogue is weak because the DM can repeatedly throw monsters that are immune to Sneak Attack at him. The Druid is weak because the DM can trap him in a 5 foot hallway with hordes of Kobolds carrying Beast Killer short swords. A Cleric is weak because the DM can make sure that for each and every encounter, someone is holding a wand of Dispel Magic. The Fighter is weak because if the specs for melee, he could only fight flying enemies, and if he specs for ranged he could only fight grapplers.

I agree; good thing that's not what I said. I didn't say counter tactics make a wizard week, only that they could be countered.



That's not actually how the game works. In all my years of playing, I have yet to come across a single DM that would single out a certain player and repeatedly throw at him encounters where his character would be next to useless. Sure, people do that once in a while, but that's not something you base whole campaigns off of. Moreover, you don't need to be the shining star in each and every encounter to be the strongest guy at the table.

The Wizard's main strength (and the main strength of all prepared casters, really) is versatility. Party's fighting mostly flying enemies that don't want to clump? The Wizard simply switches from his AoE debuffs to his single-target debuffs like Hold Person, Charm Monster, Phantasmal Killer, Flesh to Stone, Dominate, etc. He can choose to prepare spells for clumped monsters, choose to prepare spells for single targets, or even choose to prepare spells for both.

If the DM doesn't want to play ball with the Wizard, the Wizard simply changes tactics. The Fighter...can't.

I agree again that you shouldn't single out a single character for the entire campaign. The examples were to show that common tactics could be adjusted to, which as you pointed out the wizard would need to adjust to, going from stopping the entire encounter in one round to stopping a single target in one round (for example) which to me is a huge improvement.

And fighters can change tactics. Why would you assume they couldn't?


If you had failed to provide a counter would it have had as large an effect as failing to counter a Wizard? Sorry if this is being pushy, but I would like to know.

In the specific example I'm thinking of, one of my players was a charger who would have one-shotted my boss if not for the difficult terrain. Nothing the wizard in the party did would have killed him in one round, so yes, it would of had as large of an effect


Sorry about that.
No problem. My groups tend to be more rules-light, so I sometimes forget specific rules.

Greenish
2011-01-29, 03:22 PM
By that logic, Paladins are weak because the DM can choose to only set them against Neutral and Good combatants. The Rogue is weak because the DM can repeatedly throw monsters that are immune to Sneak Attack at him. The Druid is weak because the DM can trap him in a 5 foot hallway with hordes of Kobolds carrying Beast Killer short swords. A Cleric is weak because the DM can make sure that for each and every encounter, someone is holding a wand of Dispel Magic. The Fighter is weak because if the specs for melee, he could only fight flying enemies, and if he specs for ranged he could only fight grapplers.
Well, paladin is quite weak even vs. Evil enemies (go go non-errata'ed PF Smite!),
the amount of SA immune enemies does make rogues weaker in the grand scheme of things,
a druid could probably smash his way through the kobolds as a bear or dinosaur or something rather easily (I don't know what "beast killer" weapons do, but Wildshaping doesn't change druid's type to animal) or burrow out,
wanded Dispel Magic isn't very likely to beat a cleric's CL (divine characters have a large variety of ways to boost CL),
and fighter is weak because their best choice is narrow specialization.
That's just to nitpick, not to counter your larger point. :smalltongue:

[Edit]:
And fighters can change tactics. Why would you assume they couldn't?Because feats, once picked, can't be changed (short of Psychic Reformation or rebuilding the character). A fighter either commits to a limited set of tactics or sucks at everything equally.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-01-29, 03:51 PM
In the specific example I'm thinking of, one of my players was a charger who would have one-shotted my boss if not for the difficult terrain. Nothing the wizard in the party did would have killed him in one round, so yes, it would of had as large of an effect.

Not killed in one reound, but most of the examples of powerful Wizardry have not killed things in one round. They've made the fight significantly easier through other means. In your example, did the Wizard have Fly? That would have opened up charging again (unless you had some particularly odd terrain). Grease would, unless they had 5 or more ranks in Balance or were immune regardless, open up Sneak Attack. Glitterdust stops detection through sight and foils attempts at invisible escape or maneuvering. Haste might get the charger past difficult terrain with a standard action left for a charge. None of those are more than third level spells, and any one would go a long way to ending the fight.

Greenish
2011-01-29, 03:53 PM
Haste might get the charger past difficult terrain with a standard action left for a charge.Can't move and use standard action charge at the same round.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-01-29, 04:06 PM
Can't move and use standard action charge at the same round.

Three times!

Z3ro
2011-01-29, 04:08 PM
Not killed in one reound, but most of the examples of powerful Wizardry have not killed things in one round. They've made the fight significantly easier through other means. In your example, did the Wizard have Fly? That would have opened up charging again (unless you had some particularly odd terrain). Grease would, unless they had 5 or more ranks in Balance or were immune regardless, open up Sneak Attack. Glitterdust stops detection through sight and foils attempts at invisible escape or maneuvering. Haste might get the charger past difficult terrain with a standard action left for a charge. None of those are more than third level spells, and any one would go a long way to ending the fight.

How is making the rogue able to sneak attack not comparable (in terms of effect on the game and power level) equal to killing the boss in one round? Remember that this was in response to your question about needing to adjust tactics to non-wizards.

Oh, and the fighter was mounted on a normal horse, so no flying horse charge (though that would be awesome).

Greenish
2011-01-29, 04:08 PM
Three times!At least this wasn't psionics. :smallbiggrin:

Bad day, they happen.

[Edit]:
Oh, and the fighter was mounted on a normal horse, so no flying horse charge (though that would be awesome).Horses can be trained to walk on air, and, assumedly, to fly (should the applicable spell be cast on them).

You can also get flight on a normal horse with feats. :smalltongue:

ScionoftheVoid
2011-01-29, 04:12 PM
How is making the rogue able to sneak attack not comparable (in terms of effect on the game and power level) equal to killing the boss in one round? Remember that this was in response to your question about needing to adjust tactics to non-wizards.

Oh, and the fighter was mounted on a normal horse, so no flying horse charge (though that would be awesome).

A full-attack Sneak Attack can be an awful lot of d6's, and flat-footedness helps accuracy anyway. Small chance of getting them prone is just a bonus. Remember that that was the lowest level spell given. Also, your wording confuses me, so I won't respond to the second part of that paragraph.

Fly can be cast of horses, can it not?

ArcanistSupreme
2011-01-29, 04:15 PM
I agree; good thing that's not what I said. I didn't say counter tactics make a wizard week, only that they could be countered.

So either the wizards run amok with spells like grease and solid fog, or you use bad guys built specifically to shut down the wizard. The issue is, unless if there's kryptonite everywhere (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KryptoniteIsEverywhere) (aka "this adventure takes place in a dead magic zone"), a competent wizard will still be able to contribute meaningfully, while a shut-down fighter (a charger that can't charge, a tripper that can't trip, or an archer that can't shoot) just stands around looking ugly.


I agree again that you shouldn't single out a single character for the entire campaign. The examples were to show that common tactics could be adjusted to, which as you pointed out the wizard would need to adjust to, going from stopping the entire encounter in one round to stopping a single target in one round (for example) which to me is a huge improvement.

So now you as the DM have to tailor each encounter so the wizard won't end it in one round while simultaneously working so that the fighter will feel useful. Doesn't that kind of hint at a disparity in effectiveness?


And fighters can change tactics. Why would you assume they couldn't?

If by this you mean that the barbarian will pull out her back-up bow when she can't charge or the fighter will switch to fighting unarmed when his sword gets sundered, then consider this: the barbarian goes from dealing 100+ damage to a piddly 1d8+5 while the wizard against something with a high will save goes from casting glitterdust to casting grease. Having multiple effective tactics is just not something that the standard meleers can do without a lot of effort.


In the specific example I'm thinking of, one of my players was a charger who would have one-shotted my boss if not for the difficult terrain. Nothing the wizard in the party did would have killed him in one round, so yes, it would of had as large of an effect.

This situation actually points out another limiting factor of the weaker melee classes; there are so many factors that can shut them down completely. Difficult terrain, multiple enemies (so chargers can't shut down a fight with one attack), solid fog and other battlefield control magic, and large(r) enemies are just a few (extremely common) things that minimize/completely invalidate melee types. But for a well prepared wizard over level five, not a single one of those situations will by itself make him or her useless.


Something else that I'm surprised that nobody has brought up yet is the wizard's ability to make and use scrolls. Sure, he won't have just the right spell prepared for every situation, but when scrolls are cheap and easy to make, why not carry around that scroll of hold portal just in case? So unless you are severely limiting the wizard's access to new spells (which is perfectly justified but still an active nerf on the wizard's power), a wizard would very conceivably have the ability to cast a huge number of different spells regardless of whether he or she prepared them that day or not.

Fox Box Socks
2011-01-29, 04:43 PM
And fighters can change tactics. Why would you assume they couldn't?
Tactics, but not class features or specialties. If a Wizard knows (via whatever means) that tomorrow he'll be facing lots of highly mobile flying enemies, he can adjust his spellbook accordingly. The Fighter (who's spec'd for charging) can't reshuffle his feats, so the best he can do is look into buying a magic bow and do a mediocre job at plinking.

ericgrau
2011-01-29, 04:54 PM
Ya wizards do tend to get overrated on these forums, at least when claimed they pwn all at a whim. In casual games they aren't much of a problem, and I don't mean b/c of some gentleman's agreement where they hold back or other BS like that. I'm strongly against both nerf hammering them as they are a fun and interesting class and at the same time I'm against DMs coddling them by glossing over weaknesses. Going after their toys, focusing fire on the soft target, etc. and the wizard expending thought and resources to defend himself against those things only add to the fun of the game while if you go easy on him and he shines you only have yourself to blame.

I'm intentionally avoiding the schrodinger wizard that supposedly knows everything in advance and adjusts accordingly - sometimes (in discussions) a number of times that exceeds what fits in his spellbook budget, school specialization, etc. - it's more theory than practice. Again, even less of an issue in casual games. So ya I could try to comment on what might happen and it'd be a load of debatable speculation or simply say hey it's uncommon in all the games I've seen so who cares.

ArcanistSupreme
2011-01-29, 05:10 PM
Tactics, but not class features or specialties. If a Wizard knows (via whatever means) that tomorrow he'll be facing lots of highly mobile flying enemies, he can adjust his spellbook accordingly. The Fighter (who's spec'd for charging) can't reshuffle his feats, so the best he can do is look into buying a magic bow and do a mediocre job at plinking.

And without time to prepare, a fighter can't even do that. And given that the fighter has virtually no way of scouting or otherwise learning about an encounter beforehand, the fighter is much more likely to be caught unprepared. And even if a wizard finds him or herself facing a challenge that he or she can't handle very effectively, within fifteen minutes the best spell for the job can be prepared and ready to use. Or the wizard has a scroll. Or just uses another (admittedly broken) spell like polymorph that is always useful with a bit of research/creativity.

The point is that a well-built wizard should always have some way of contributing to a fight. Even if this contribution is just helping the party to escape, this often has the same results as bypassing or defeating the encounter. Sadly, the fighter is not always as useful.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-29, 05:14 PM
And without time to prepare, a fighter can't even do that. And given that the fighter has virtually no way of scouting or otherwise learning about an encounter beforehand, the fighter is much more likely to be caught unprepared. And even if a wizard finds him or herself facing a challenge that he or she can't handle very effectively, within fifteen minutes the best spell for the job can be prepared and ready to use. Or the wizard has a scroll. Or just uses another (admittedly broken) spell like polymorph that is always useful with a bit of research/creativity.

The point is that a well-built wizard should always have some way of contributing to a fight. Even if this contribution is just helping the party to escape, this often has the same results as bypassing or defeating the encounter. Sadly, the fighter is not always as useful.

I'd go as far as to say rarely or almost never, unless it's something like an ubercharger or a trip monkey, both of which are not reliant on the Fighter part.

ArcanistSupreme
2011-01-29, 05:18 PM
Ya wizards do tend to get overrated on these forums, at least when claimed they pwn all at a whim. In casual games they aren't much of a problem, and I don't mean b/c of some gentleman's agreement where they hold back or other BS like that. I'm strongly against both nerf hammering them as they are a fun and interesting class and at the same time I'm against DMs coddling them by glossing over weaknesses. Going after their toys, focusing fire on the soft target, etc. and the wizard expending thought and resources to defend himself against those things only add to the fun of the game while if you go easy on him and he shines you only have yourself to blame.

I'm intentionally avoiding the schrodinger wizard that supposedly knows everything in advance and adjusts accordingly - sometimes (in discussions) a number of times that exceeds what fits in his spellbook budget, school specialization, etc. - it's more theory than practice. Again, even less of an issue in casual games. So ya I could try to comment on what might happen and it'd be a load of debatable speculation or simply say hey it's uncommon in all the games I've seen so who cares.

The problem is not just Schroedinger's wizard, but all of the little land mines in the wizard's spell list. Even a completely clueless player can find shapechange and say, "Hey, I want to be a dragon." And now the wizard is better at the fighter's job than the fighter is. Or "Hey, I can polymorph into something with a burrow speed and then we don't have to fight anything in the whole dungeon." See also any of the other spells that get out of hand very quickly with a little creative thinking.

I'm not saying that a wizard should never be played, but I am saying that unless both the player and the DM know what a wizard is capable of, things can go wrong very quickly.

Fiery Diamond
2011-01-29, 05:37 PM
That's like saying a class isn't overpowered because some people play it as a mere fraction of its true power. Shouldn't we be looking at what it can do, at its peak potential?

While the majority of those populating these forums may disagree with me, I'd say that a majority of the larger pool of gamers would agree with me:

The answer to your question is no.

We should be looking at what is usual, expected, or experienced within most gaming groups. Unless we're doing TO or trying to help an inexperienced DM prepare for dealing with powergamers optimizers a small portion of gamers, peak potential is completely irrelevant.

It's why I see all this talk of WIZARDS ZOMG! on these threads and just shake my head. And posts like one on the first page where someone was laughing at the idea of casting Melf's Acid Arrow and saying "real wizards do X" are completely ridiculous.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-29, 05:38 PM
Ya wizards do tend to get overrated on these forums, at least when claimed they pwn all at a whim. In casual games they aren't much of a problem, and I don't mean b/c of some gentleman's agreement where they hold back or other BS like that. I'm strongly against both nerf hammering them as they are a fun and interesting class and at the same time I'm against DMs coddling them by glossing over weaknesses. Going after their toys, focusing fire on the soft target, etc. and the wizard expending thought and resources to defend himself against those things only add to the fun of the game while if you go easy on him and he shines you only have yourself to blame.

I'm intentionally avoiding the schrodinger wizard that supposedly knows everything in advance and adjusts accordingly - sometimes (in discussions) a number of times that exceeds what fits in his spellbook budget, school specialization, etc. - it's more theory than practice. Again, even less of an issue in casual games. So ya I could try to comment on what might happen and it'd be a load of debatable speculation or simply say hey it's uncommon in all the games I've seen so who cares.

I (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) KN (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneEye.htm)OW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) EVERY (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm)THING! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clairaudienceClairvoyance.htm)

No, seriously, the Schroedinger wizard is actually do-able once you hit 5th level spells.

Greenish
2011-01-29, 05:44 PM
We should be looking at what is usual, expected, or experienced within most gaming groups.There's no such elusive entity as "average gaming group", nor any real statistics on how the game is played, so what you're suggesting is in practise impossible.

Of course, we can all claim to speak for "the majority", but in reality, we're only talking about our own experiences, which, however extensive, are perforce finite.

None of this changes the fact that magic is very powerful.

ArcanistSupreme
2011-01-29, 05:53 PM
While the majority of those populating these forums may disagree with me, I'd say that a majority of the larger pool of gamers would agree with me:

The answer to your question is no.

We should be looking at what is usual, expected, or experienced within most gaming groups. Unless we're doing TO or trying to help an inexperienced DM prepare for dealing with powergamers optimizers a small portion of gamers, peak potential is completely irrelevant.

It's why I see all this talk of WIZARDS ZOMG! on these threads and just shake my head. And posts like one on the first page where someone was laughing at the idea of casting Melf's Acid Arrow and saying "real wizards do X" are completely ridiculous.

But even in games where the wizard is casting nothing but fireball, the wizard will repeatedly outclass the fighters and monks. At least in the games I've played in, the fight would start, the wizard would cast an empowered maximized fireball via metamagic rods and then the fighter and I (the monk) would spend our actions to sulk. The problem is that in games where the PCs are low-op, the DM usually plays along the same curve and doesn't know how to adjust when the wizard pops polymorph and turns into a hydra just for fun.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-29, 05:58 PM
@Fiery: I wasn't making fun of Melf's Acid Arrow, so you can stop calling me ridiculous. I was making fun of Mount (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mount.htm), which is only ever cast in conjunction with Magic Aura to con stable owners. No one fills up their spellbooks with spells like Mount. Acid arrow might be a common blasty spell, but you'll never convince me on Mount.

And to your greater point... how would you actually know that a blasty wizard played below his INT score is the wizard experience in most gaming groups? How would you know whether some "silent majority" of gaming groups agrees with you? You'd like to think so, and maybe your gaming experiences tend to confirm your opinion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias), but that doesn't say much as far as the larger gaming population is concerned.

If anything, a wizard taking only sub-par blasty spells and extremely situational utility spells seems to me like a special case that deserves one sentence of mention or less. Even the most standard wizard of all is likely to take spells like Invisibility, Fly, and Teleport. Ultimately I agree that focusing solely on high-optimization wizards is problematic, since not all games are run at that level, but focusing just on low-optimization (or, in some cases, intentionally gimping yourself) falls into the same fallacious trap.

ArcanistSupreme
2011-01-29, 06:06 PM
@Fiery: I wasn't making fun of Melf's Acid Arrow, so you can stop calling me ridiculous. I was making fun of Mount (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mount.htm), which is only ever cast in conjunction with Magic Aura to con stable owners. No one fills up their spellbooks with spells like Mount. Acid arrow might be a common blasty spell, but you'll never convince me on Mount.

I didn't even know that mount was an actual spell before today.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-01-29, 06:09 PM
@Fiery: I wasn't making fun of Melf's Acid Arrow, so you can stop calling me ridiculous. I was making fun of Mount (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mount.htm), which is only ever cast in conjunction with Magic Aura to con stable owners. No one fills up their spellbooks with spells like Mount. Acid arrow might be a common blasty spell, but you'll never convince me on Mount.

A horse can block line of sight (at least for the moment needed for a Hide check), and breaks straight lines for charges and the like, so it's not completely without use.

ArcanistSupreme
2011-01-29, 06:15 PM
A horse can block line of sight (at least for the moment needed for a Hide check), and breaks straight lines for charges and the like, so it's not completely without use.

And so can a celestial badger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm).

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-29, 06:18 PM
A horse can block line of sight (at least for the moment needed for a Hide check), and breaks straight lines for charges and the like, so it's not completely without use.Hah, Wall of Horses. Still, all the worst spells have some use (except Death Throes), but they're still not commonly scribed or prepared.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-01-29, 06:20 PM
And so can a celestial badger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm).

Fair enough, but at level one having more than one round of charge-be-gone might be useful. Plus, you have long enough to cut off and cook the flesh before it dissipates.

Mount, charge-blocker, food supply, what can't it do?

senrath
2011-01-29, 06:22 PM
Well, it can't be used for food. That's one thing it can't do.

Greenish
2011-01-29, 06:23 PM
Hah, Wall of Horses.Actual Wall of Horses is in SC, and is a higher level spell. (I think the official name was Regal Progression or something to that effect.)

Fox Box Socks
2011-01-29, 06:23 PM
food supply
I find the concept of conjuring a magic horse just so you and your friends can eat it to be very, very funny

ScionoftheVoid
2011-01-29, 06:35 PM
Well, it can't be used for food. That's one thing it can't do.

Of course it can! You just need to keep it alive as you cut off the flesh and cook and eat it before the duration runs out.

Relevant text:

Summoning

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

Even if the DM disallows that, I'm sure you'd be able to drink it's blood. Waterskins are heavy if you dump Str hard enough, with Mount you don't need one!

Edit:@/\ Then my work here is done.

ArcanistSupreme
2011-01-29, 06:37 PM
Fair enough, but at level one having more than one round of charge-be-gone might be useful. Plus, you have long enough to cut off and cook the flesh before it dissipates.

Mount, charge-blocker, food supply, what can't it do?

And, in all fairness, the horse is large. But again, there are spells that can do all of that and more (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silentImage.htm) if used intelligently.

EDIT: Temporary food supply not included.


Well, it can't be used for food. That's one thing it can't do.

Wouldn't it stave off hunger until the duration of the spell ended?

And now I'm imagining a wizard that weakens his enemies the day before a battle by feeding them magic horse meat; the next day they'll all be SUPER HUNGRY!!! Bwahahaha!

ScionoftheVoid
2011-01-29, 06:40 PM
Wouldn't it stave off hunger until the duration of the spell ended?

And now I'm imagining a wizard that weakens his enemies the day before a battle by feeding them magic horse meat; the next day they'll all be SUPER HUNGRY!!! Bwahahaha!

I'm so glad I brought this up.:smallbiggrin:

Fox Box Socks
2011-01-29, 06:50 PM
It certainly is a more...interesting alternative to Conjure Food and Water

Gnaeus
2011-01-29, 07:38 PM
You could Dominate your Mount, then PAO it into a giant or other useful creature for 12 hours.

You could suck out your Mount's hp with Vampiric Touch or a similar effect for extra HP, or let your undead minions feed on it (it has more HD than anything you could get with SM1).

Actually, in a game I am currently in, I am playing a chameleon, and I am seriously considering filling almost all my first level arcane slots with Mount, and casting them all first thing in the AM before I shift my focus over to divine. I mean, you want to get SOME utility out of the level ones.

ericgrau
2011-01-29, 08:31 PM
I (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) KN (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneEye.htm)OW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) EVERY (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm)THING! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clairaudienceClairvoyance.htm)

No, seriously, the Schroedinger wizard is actually do-able once you hit 5th level spells.

Again it's more of a practical assessment than theoretical. As in if it isn't broke don't fix it, even if it could theoretically be broken. Though there are counter tactics to the above, per day / wealth limitations, etc. The theory could go back and forth like a SMBG "I do this"/"I counter with this" duel. My point was I prefer to avoid the whole complicated thing and look at the practical instead; how things normally tend to play out.

Runestar
2011-01-29, 08:47 PM
I think it is also unlikely that a wizard will somehow always be caught with the wrong spells for the job, especially if you have him prepare general spells which should remain useful under many conditions/scenarios. It doesn't mean he cannot be countered, but the likelihood dramatically decreases.

Take for example glitterdust. Most foes will have poor will saves, and are ill-equipped to deal with being blinded.

Likewise, there are a few ways a wizard can spontaneously cast, such as alacritous cogitation (god, I hate spelling that word) and uncanny forethought.

Here's an example of what a 5th lv wizard might prepare.
5th level: Slots: 0: 6, 1: 7, 2: 5, 3: 4

0: Caltropsx3, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand
1: Mage Armor, Wall of Smoke, Grease x2, Expeditious Retreat (swift), Targeting Ray, Silent Image
2: Web, Glitterdust, Cloud of Bewilderment, Rope Trick, Invisibility
3: Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust (Sculpt spell meta), Bands of Steel, Haste

Recommended Magic Items: Rod of Extend (lesser), Wand of Benign Transposition, Cloak of Resistance (+1), Headband of Intellect (Totals 8750gp) (The Rod is probably your first priority here - the Cloak of Resistance is the most expendable)

Recommended Strategy: You aren't high enough level to just blow all your spells yet. Start each battle with one of your 3rd level memorizations and then assess your situation. If it should be easy going from here on, then cast down some caltrops and make use of your cloudy conjuration feat for minor battlefield control. If things are tough - go into 2nd and 1st level spells in following rounds. Keep at least 1 Glitterdust or Cloud of Bewilderment in reserve in case there are more combats than you expected.
The DM would really have to go out of his way to make the wizard feel useless, IMO.

And for 10th lv,
10th Level: Memorizations: 0: 6, 1: 8, 2: 8, 3: 7, 4: 6, 5: 5

0: As level 5 example
1: Mage Armor, Wall of Smoke, Grease, Expeditious Retreat (swift), Targeting Ray, Silent Image, Blockade x2
2: Web, Glitterdust x2 (sculpt meta for free on both), Cloud of Bewilderment, Rope Trick, Invisibility, Create Magic Tattoo, Fog Cloud
3: Bands of Steel, Haste x2, Corpse Candle, Stinking Cloud, Dimension step, Mage Armor (greater)
4: Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Bloodstar, Wall of Sand, Assay Spell Resistance, Celerity
5: Teleport, Cloudkill, Wall of Stone, Overland Flight (extend for free), Wall of Good

Recommended magic items: Rod of extend (lesser), Headband of Intellect (+4), Pearls of power - level 1 (x 5), Rod of silent spell (lesser), Heward's handy haversack, Heward's fortifying bedroll, Amulet of health (+2), Cloak of Resistance (+2), Wand of True Casting (Total gp value: 39,750 - leaves some extra room for incedentals)

Recommended strategy: You now have a lot more spells. Use your rod of extend on your greater mage armor and your Create Magic Tattoo at the beginning of the day.

Cast blockades or swift expeditious whenever they're helpful and recover them with pearls of power. Start battles with a 4th or 5th level spell. Follow it up with 1st or 2nd level spells in following rounds. Use cloudy conjuration for defense (place in front of you). You stillcan't just waste spells or you will still run out - but you can nova at need without completely draining yourself.
And lastly, 15th lv,
15th Level: Memorizations: 0: 6, 1: 8, 2: 8, 3: 8, 4: 8, 5: 8, 6: 6, 7: 5, 8: 4

0: As level 5 example
1: Wall of Smoke, Grease, Expeditious Retreat (swift)x2, Targeting Ray, Silent Image, Blockade x2
2: Web, Glitterdust x2 (sculpt meta on both for free), Cloud of Bewilderment, Rope Trick, Invisibility, Create Magic Tattoo, Fog Cloud
3: Haste x2, Corpse Candle, Stinking Cloud, Dimension step, Mage Armor (greater), Phantom Steed x2
4: Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Bloodstar, Wall of Sand, Assay Spell Resistance x2, Celerity x2
5: Teleport, Cloudkill, Wall of Stone, Wall of Good, Friend to Foe, Evacuation Rune, Shadow Evocation (sculpt for free), Transmute Rock to Mud
6: Freezing Fog x2, Tunnel Swallow, True Seeing, Antimagic Field, Dispel Magic (Greater)
7: Stun Ray (Extend for free), Choking Cobwebs (CS) (Sculpt Spell for free), Summon Monster VII, Brilliant Aura, Reverse Gravity
8: Maze, Plane Shift (Greater), Deadly Lahar (CS - huge cone slow effect), Chain Dispel

Recommended magic items: Ring of Feather Fall, Ring of Enduring Arcana, Headband of Intellect (+6), Amulet of health (+4), Metamagic Rod of Quicken (lesser), Metamagic Rod of Extend (lesser), Metamagic rod of Silent Spell (lesser), Heward's handy haversack, Heward's fortifying bedroll, and treat yourself to a nice metamagic rod as well. Should have lots left over for whatever else you like.

Recommended strategy: You are now flying at 240' on your phantom steed all day. The second is in case the first goes down. There are more spells on the list that simply enhance other spells (Celerity, Assay spell resistance) - since you can now afford more castings of these type of spells. There are lots of Battlefield controls, Buffs and Debuffs on the list. Use mid level spells for most battles - plus you can afford a high level spell for every battle with some left for reserve.

Cerlis
2011-01-29, 08:53 PM
PPPFFFAHHHHAHAHAhahahahh... HAhahah... heheh... heh...
Melf's acid arrow. You're killing me. Real wizards prepare alter self, web and invisibility in their 2nd level spell slots.
Also, real wizards are focused specialist transmuters or conjurers. That's 6 baseline spells per day, and that's not even counting bonus from intelligence (which is at least 1 more, bare minimum). And then pearls of powers are cool, too, especially when you keep one seven for your highest level spell slot and use it on alacritous cogitation.:smallamused:

4 spells per spell level, for free, as a baseline. There are numerous ways to increase your free spells, including (but not limited to) collegiate wizard, elven generalist, domain wizard, Master Specialist, and Mage of the Arcane Order. And there are also ways to decrease the time and cost of adding other spells, such as Geometer or the ever-popular Blessed Book. Spells known isn't going to be a problem unless the DM works to make it a problem.
In other words, there is nothing wrong with wizards. There is only something wrong with certian obscure or special and specific wizards who are optimized.
A wizard=/= Prestige class. Thats like saying A druid is overpowered because they can turn into firebreathing dragons with full casting. When its really only druids that have natural spell and this prestige class or that, that boosts their Wildshape.
and you cant bring up stuff like pearls of power to talk about wizards being op. thats like saying a rogue is OP for attacking someone with a bag full of alchemists fire that all goes off at once. The item is good. the class just uses it.

Breaking the game implies infinite loops and the like. Wizards are just strong, not ZOMG drown-heals.
I thought thats what we where talking about. There was mention of using Contact Other Plain to figure out exactly what spells to prepare based off 400 questions. That seems game breaky and metagamey to me.


This is just plain wrong. That's like saying the Fighter wastes half of his feats on Skill Focus: Speak Language
no its like saying a Fighter wastes half his skillpoints on Ride skill. A wizard has to be prepared for everything. He can either use most of his spells on something specific (such as combat) or has to waste many spells on utility spells just in case (lest a party member die, because he didnt prepare at least one Featherfall spell). a wizards low level spell slots and even high level are "wasted" on utility. and some of there utility slots are wasted on combat. Everyones making it seem like wizards can cast any spell at any time as many times they want, which they cant. its like saying a Barbarian is broken because they can increase their strength by 20 points and cast antimagic zone on themselfs. That might seem overpowerd to some, but its not the barbarian who is, its the combo or the prestige class.

yes he gets more than 4 spells per level per day (at level 20). it just feels like based on what people are saying they are the under a certian impression. but...
Wizards get 4 spell slots per level. not more.
Wizards only gain spell slots of a certian level when they reach that level, not before.
Wizards can not cast high powered spells with lower level spell slots.
A Specialist wizard gets 1 extra spell slot per level, of a very limited type
A Specialist wizard greatly reduces their utility. A wizard who doesnt know a school cant magically just cast spells from that school like he knows it.
A focused specialist wizard gains an extra spell slot per level, but has to sacrifice another school.
Wizards do gain bonus spells from a high int score. but with average int thats just a few low level spells. any higher is based on gear which has nothing to do with the actual wizard class.
Again magic items are not a class feature. They are completely fluid based on the DM (within reason) Magic items=/= The Class that Uses them.

ArcanistSupreme
2011-01-29, 08:55 PM
Dang, now that we've found so many uses for mount, I'm determined to find a more useless spell. So what about hold portal? It might get prepared, but does anyone ever use it?

CycloneJoker
2011-01-29, 09:12 PM
In other words, there is nothing wrong with wizards. There is only something wrong with certian obscure or special and specific wizards who are optimized.
A wizard=/= Prestige class. Thats like saying A druid is overpowered because they can turn into firebreathing dragons with full casting. When its really only druids that have natural spell and this prestige class or that, that boosts their Wildshape.
and you cant bring up stuff like pearls of power to talk about wizards being op. thats like saying a rogue is OP for attacking someone with a bag full of alchemists fire that all goes off at once. The item is good. the class just uses it.

I thought thats what we where talking about. There was mention of using Contact Other Plain to figure out exactly what spells to prepare based off 400 questions. That seems game breaky and metagamey to me.


no its like saying a Fighter wastes half his skillpoints on Ride skill. A wizard has to be prepared for everything. He can either use most of his spells on something specific (such as combat) or has to waste many spells on utility spells just in case (lest a party member die, because he didnt prepare at least one Featherfall spell). a wizards low level spell slots and even high level are "wasted" on utility. and some of there utility slots are wasted on combat. Everyones making it seem like wizards can cast any spell at any time as many times they want, which they cant. its like saying a Barbarian is broken because they can increase their strength by 20 points and cast antimagic zone on themselfs. That might seem overpowerd to some, but its not the barbarian who is, its the combo or the prestige class.

yes he gets more than 4 spells per level per day (at level 20). it just feels like based on what people are saying they are the under a certian impression. but...
Wizards get 4 spell slots per level. not more.
Wizards only gain spell slots of a certian level when they reach that level, not before.
Wizards can not cast high powered spells with lower level spell slots.
A Specialist wizard gets 1 extra spell slot per level, of a very limited type
A Specialist wizard greatly reduces their utility. A wizard who doesnt know a school cant magically just cast spells from that school like he knows it.
A focused specialist wizard gains an extra spell slot per level, but has to sacrifice another school.
Wizards do gain bonus spells from a high int score. but with average int thats just a few low level spells. any higher is based on gear which has nothing to do with the actual wizard class.
Again magic items are not a class feature. They are completely fluid based on the DM (within reason) Magic items=/= The Class that Uses them.

I really must appologize, but have you EVER played/played with someone playing a wizard or druid, or do you lack sufficient information, to the level where you would start calling a fighter good? Even without Natural Spell, the druid is two fighter/barbarian/whatever tank/melee monstrosity you want. Their ways to gain knowledge are in no way metagamy, it is completely what was intended, maybe a little stretched, but should no be used with the same noun/adjective as Pun-Pun, the Omnicificer, or even the d2 crusader.

It's like saying the fighter wastes feats on things like Toughness and Dodge multiple times, and not for prereqs.

He WILL have the right spells in near the correct numbers because he HAS the info he needs, so there won't be any wasted. And the magic IS the class, so it is the class's problem.

Umm...Elven generalist +20 INT Grey Elf, just for starters? I have spells per day like a sorcerer, if not better, I can get/make stuff to bump my INT further, and someone's never heard of tainted scholar~~~.

Please, learn more about common topics before talking about them, at least as much for your sake as for the people who waste time reading/correcting your posts.

ArcanistSupreme
2011-01-29, 09:23 PM
In other words, there is nothing wrong with wizards. There is only something wrong with certian obscure or special and specific wizards who are optimized.
A wizard=/= Prestige class. Thats like saying A druid is overpowered because they can turn into firebreathing dragons with full casting. When its really only druids that have natural spell and this prestige class or that, that boosts their Wildshape.
and you cant bring up stuff like pearls of power to talk about wizards being op. thats like saying a rogue is OP for attacking someone with a bag full of alchemists fire that all goes off at once. The item is good. the class just uses it.

First, there is nothing obscure about polymorph, time stop, summon monster X, teleport, prismatic wall, or irresistible dance, yet any one of those spells can easily shut down an entire encounter.

Second, there are druids that don't take natural spell? :smallconfused: Seriously, it's the single most obvious feat to take for a druid, especially in core.

Third, if items should not be included in the evaluation of a class, then fighters can't have weapons or armor. WBL is a part of the game, and even if there are no magic marts, wizards can make the items themselves.


I thought thats what we where talking about. There was mention of using Contact Other Plain to figure out exactly what spells to prepare based off 400 questions. That seems game breaky and metagamey to me.

To me, the whole point of all divination spells is pretty much "metagaming." Now, if you, a real person, had the ability to ask questions about the future to better prepare yourself, would you? I would. Why wouldn't a wizard, especially one with a vested interest in saving the world? Sure, those spells can ruin campaigns, but that's why we're arguing for understanding rather than simply accepting that all players and DMs will know how to use these spells responsibly.


Stuff about limited spells and wizards wasting slots on utility spells.

A wizard, especially one with a party, can end easy encounters with one or two spells, and maybe spend five or six on hard ones unless the DM really knows how to run a tough encounter. Given that the DMG says that there are supposed to be three encounters a day, that leaves the wizard with plenty of spells left over.

As for utility spells, if something comes up so often that a wizard is constantly "wasting" a slot on it, why can't he buy or, again, make a wand or scroll? A wand of knock, invisibility, or shatter all seem pretty intuitive to me. As for feather fall, if a high level adventurer can't survive 20d6 of falling damage, he or she is doing it wrong.

Gnaeus
2011-01-29, 09:25 PM
A wizard=/= Prestige class. Thats like saying A druid is overpowered because they can turn into firebreathing dragons with full casting. When its really only druids that have natural spell and this prestige class or that, that boosts their Wildshape.

Actually, it is only a feat, Draconic Wildshape. You don't need natural spell to cast as a dragon, dragons can spellcast anyway. As far as natural spell goes, when a feat is obviously vastly useful to/intended for a class, and is printed in the same book as a class, it isn't stretching to think that most members of a class will take it.



I thought thats what we where talking about. There was mention of using Contact Other Plain to figure out exactly what spells to prepare based off 400 questions. That seems game breaky and metagamey to me.

No. It is actually metagamey NOT to use COP to find out what you are going to be fighting. Using divination to get useful information is why they exist. People with super genius intelligence are likely to figure that out. Now, it is REASONABLE to think that that isn't fun, or that it breaks the game, but that thought process itself is metagaming. I pretty much guarantee that if you take a squad of soldiers going on a dangerous mission they aren't going to say "I don't want to use the satelite recon. It is really unfair to the enemy".


Wizards do gain bonus spells from a high int score. but with average int thats just a few low level spells. any higher is based on gear which has nothing to do with the actual wizard class.

Yes, but wizards are the very definition of a SAD class. In any point buy or rolling system, wizards WILL put their highest stat or most of their points in int, unless they are intentionally gimping themselves. They will put their leveling points into Int, and they will get a + int item as soon as they can. Fighters do the same thing with strength. It is pretty much assumed in the system. Assuming anything else is making an artificial distinction where none exists in play.


Again magic items are not a class feature.

Hmm, nope.

"Scribe Scroll

At 1st level, a wizard gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

Bonus Feats

At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a wizard gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery."

Sounds like a class feature to me.

Fox Box Socks
2011-01-29, 09:28 PM
I'm not sure where all this "obscure spell" stuff is coming from. In all the examples in this thread, I don't think I've ever seen anyone mention a spell that wasn't right there in the Player's Handbook.

umbrapolaris
2011-01-29, 09:38 PM
the fighter can resolve all a quest by himself !

he just take a bag of holding with all the needed spells in scrolls made by the wizard after a Contact other Plane, the wizard stay at home researching new spells , he dont have time to lose by adventuring with "those weak adventurers" ^^

when i was in the army, my superior (an ex-commando) who were a d&d player (a fighter ^^), tell me "if i had a wizard and a cleric in my squad, i will not worry for my life so much" means if you can have a powerful tool , you WILL use it, coz it simplify your life.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-29, 09:42 PM
In other words, there is nothing wrong with wizards. There is only something wrong with certian obscure or special and specific wizards who are optimized.Well, I personally don't have a big issue with powerful wizards, so wizards having something "wrong" with them is a little off base. My point was if you anticipate having trouble getting extra spells in downtime you have a vast array of options to remedy that problem. Taking MotAO or Collegiate Wizard isn't twinking a character (far from it); they just reduce player headaches.

A wizard=/= Prestige class. Thats like saying A druid is overpowered because they can turn into firebreathing dragons with full casting. When its really only druids that have natural spell and this prestige class or that, that boosts their Wildshape.Wait, I'm confused - there are druids who DON'T take the Natural Spell feat? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html) Really, Druid is the worst possible class for your argument. Ignoring the cheese-tacular Planar Shepherd, there's not much reason to PrC out of Druid. Druid 20 with just one simple feat represents the capabilities of most Druid builds.

As far as a Wizard goes, I'll admit that some players go straight Wizard 20 and don't take any PrCs or special feats to adapt to the DM, but these are precisely the same players that the DM doesn't have to consciously avoid giving scrolls or downtime to just to gimp them. And no, that's not standard DMing, nor should it be.

and you cant bring up stuff like pearls of power to talk about wizards being op. thats like saying a rogue is OP for attacking someone with a bag full of alchemists fire that all goes off at once. The item is good. the class just uses it.I'll agree that items don't make the character, but you have to assume some parity here. If the wizard isn't afforded items as part of his build, neither is the rogue. Also, some classes make better use out of certain items. Wizards (and rogues) make better use out of a Wand of Fireball than a Fighter, for instance.

I thought thats what we where talking about. There was mention of using Contact Other Plain to figure out exactly what spells to prepare based off 400 questions. That seems game breaky and metagamey to me.It seems like a wizard optimized to the point of "paranoid divination spamming," which I will point out only gets brought up to counter similarly 'optimized' or otherwise difficult foes. No one need bring it up when we're considering low or medium op because the wizard doesn't need the help in those ranges, so long as everyone is at the same level of optimization.

no its like saying a Fighter wastes half his skillpoints on Ride skill.Ride is actually useful, so no.

A wizard has to be prepared for everything.If a wizard actually was prepared for everything, that would sort of blow your whole argument, wouldn't it?

He can either use most of his spells on something specific (such as combat) or has to waste many spells on utility spells just in case (lest a party member die, because he didnt prepare at least one Featherfall spell).Or he can take a calculated risk and not cover certain things in certain days. Again, unless the wizard is high op, he's not expected to be able to do everything, ever. He's just expected to do a lot more stuff than the non-casters, and more effectively.

a wizards low level spell slots and even high level are "wasted" on utility. and some of there utility slots are wasted on combat. Everyones making it seem like wizards can cast any spell at any time as many times they want, which they cant.No one's saying that. What they can cast, assuming they prepare a good general spell list and tailor it given their knowledge of the situation, is very often more than good enough. That's all we're saying.

its like saying a Barbarian is broken because they can increase their strength by 20 points and cast antimagic zone on themselfs. That might seem overpowerd to some, but its not the barbarian who is, its the combo or the prestige class.No one is saying that, either.

yes he gets more than 4 spells per level per day (at level 20).... and more given other things you only list later...

it just feels like based on what people are saying they are the under a certian impression. but...
Wizards get 4 spell slots per level. not more.
Wizards only gain spell slots of a certian level when they reach that level, not before.
Wizards can not cast high powered spells with lower level spell slots.
A Specialist wizard gets 1 extra spell slot per level, of a very limited type
A Specialist wizard greatly reduces their utility. A wizard who doesnt know a school cant magically just cast spells from that school like he knows it.Shadow [magic school] line, Loremaster UMD, etc... Even with two (or three) schools missing there's enough functional overlap between schools to cover almost all the utility you'll ever need.

Wizards do gain bonus spells from a high int score. but with average int thats just a few low level spells. any higher is based on gear which has nothing to do with the actual wizard class.I brought this up before, but if you're not even affording the wizard a headband of intellect, then a fair comparison affords no one else their magic items, either. If we assume WBL, which is at least one way to compare the classes, then yes, the magic items are a part of how the wizard functions. If not, the non-casters lag behind far more than the casters.

Again magic items are not a class feature. They are completely fluid based on the DM (within reason) Magic items=/= The Class that Uses them.And once again, different magic items are more or less useful in the hands of different classes, and the game was designed with characters receiving relevant magic items in mind.

Amnestic
2011-01-29, 09:46 PM
Dang, now that we've found so many uses for mount, I'm determined to find a more useless spell. So what about hold portal? It might get prepared, but does anyone ever use it?

Are you being bugged by an annoying guy at your local tavern? Worry no longer good sir! That door which is supposed to be kept unlocked at all times will be shut, locked and even slightly reinforced thanks to Hold Portal, the latest and greatest from spell from Amnestic's Exceedingly Discount Spells! Peeping Tom getting you down? Angry batch of Half-Ogre Ninjas on your tail? Far too lazy to stand up to shut the window which is letting a draught in? Hold Portal is the perfect counter to all your problems in life*.

When you're in doubt, don't shout, shop discount, with Amnestic's Exceedingly Discount Spells!

*Disclaimer: This statement is in no way a guarantee, binding contract, pact, or bond between the customer and Amnestic, Amnestic's Exceedingly Discount Spells, or affiliates. Your mileage may vary.

Marillion
2011-01-29, 10:09 PM
Thats like saying A druid is overpowered because they can turn into firebreathing dragons with full casting. When its really only druids that have natural spell...

Wait, I'm confused. There are druids who DON'T take the Natural Spell feat??? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html):smallconfused:

Damn swordsages.

ArcanistSupreme
2011-01-29, 10:14 PM
Are you being bugged by an annoying guy at your local tavern? Worry no longer good sir! That door which is supposed to be kept unlocked at all times will be shut, locked and even slightly reinforced thanks to Hold Portal, the latest and greatest from spell from Amnestic's Exceedingly Discount Spells! Peeping Tom getting you down? Angry batch of Half-Ogre Ninjas on your tail? Far too lazy to stand up to shut the window which is letting a draught in? Hold Portal is the perfect counter to all your problems in life*.

When you're in doubt, don't shout, shop discount, with Amnestic's Exceedingly Discount Spells!

*Disclaimer: This statement is in no way a guarantee, binding contract, pact, or bond between the customer and Amnestic, Amnestic's Exceedingly Discount Spells, or affiliates. Your mileage may vary.

But what stops that guy from going in the window? :smallfrown: It will buy you a couple of rounds time at most if there is a portal to hold. For every time it sees use, there are three dozen times it doesn't. It's just sooo situational.


Wait, I'm confused. There are druids who DON'T take the Natural Spell feat??? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html[/url):smallconfused:

You've been swordsage'd, sir, and your link is broken.

Amnestic
2011-01-29, 10:34 PM
But what stops that guy from going in the window? :smallfrown: It will buy you a couple of rounds time at most if there is a portal to hold. For every time it sees use, there are three dozen times it doesn't. It's just sooo situational.


Yeah. It's probably better off as a Cantrip, and even then it's likely not the best of the bunch, and Grease is probably a superior "RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!" spell.* I agree. It's probably one of the least useful spells on hand and I can't imagine why anyone would take it other than simply not knowing or because they want to deliberately gimp their spell selection.

Those were the few ideas for Hold Portal I came up with off the top of my head though. I think it makes a flavourful escape spell to use at least. That's about it though.

*Views expressed do not reflect on the views of Amnestic's Exceedingly Discount Spells. Our spells are the best** for all occasions.

**Disclaimer: They might not be.

Fox Box Socks
2011-01-29, 10:56 PM
Hold Portal is not a spell you prepare. Hold Portal is a spell you always keep a scroll of on you, just in case.

ArcanistSupreme
2011-01-29, 11:15 PM
Hold Portal is not a spell you prepare. Hold Portal is a spell you always keep a scroll of on you, just in case.

And it's one of those scrolls you find on your character sheet at level 15 (right next to your potion of delay poison and shillelagh oil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)) and you wonder why you still have it.

sonofzeal
2011-01-29, 11:22 PM
Hold Portal is the secret weakness of the dreaded Door Ninja (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25443397/Making_a_stealth_monster&post_num=3#458514973).

Coidzor
2011-01-30, 02:42 AM
^: Is that... the.... disc of silent portal + animate objects?

IT IS! :smallbiggrin:
Wait, I'm confused. There are druids who DON'T take the Natural Spell feat??? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html):smallconfused:

Damn swordsages.

Five pages worth of swordsagery. :smalleek:


And it's one of those scrolls you find on your character sheet at level 15 (right next to your potion of delay poison and shillelagh oil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)) and you wonder why you still have it.

Something for your kids when they start out as adventurers?

Starbuck_II
2011-01-30, 08:45 AM
A wizard, especially one with a party, can end easy encounters with one or two spells, and maybe spend five or six on hard ones unless the DM really knows how to run a tough encounter. Given that the DMG says that there are supposed to be three encounters a day, that leaves the wizard with plenty of spells left over.


It is 4 of easy difficulty. A Hard takes 2 of those up, so at that point you are left with 3 encounters (a hard and 2 easy).

ArcanistSupreme
2011-01-30, 09:16 AM
Hold Portal is the secret weakness of the dreaded Door Ninja (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25443397/Making_a_stealth_monster&post_num=3#458514973).

That is hilarious. Although I'm not sure how you shut a door that isn't attached to anything.


Something for your kids when they start out as adventurers?

If I was giving my kids presents, I think they'd prefer the vest of the archmagi. But I guess the gesture would be appreciated.


It is 4 of easy difficulty. A Hard takes 2 of those up, so at that point you are left with 3 encounters (a hard and 2 easy).

Well, wrong as I may be, four easy encounters would use maybe eight spells instead of the ten or more I predicted. As wizards get to be higher and higher level, they will be going to bed with more and more spells still prepared, even considering slots they burn on daily buffs, divinations, and utility spells.

Acanous
2011-01-31, 06:55 AM
A Specialist wizard greatly reduces their utility. A wizard who doesnt know a school cant magically just cast spells from that school like he knows it.


Unless you are an illusionist.
Really, the Shadow Evoc/Conj helps, but you get all sorts of other fun things that would normally be denied to you as well. Shadow Walk lets you escape from a combat, travel to certain other planes, and substitutes nicely for Wind Walk when you're just trying to GO somewhere, for example.

Most of the Image line is so sillily overpowered when used creatively that I could fill a topic with it. Sort of like the Polymorph spell only less proactive.

Runestar
2011-01-31, 08:15 AM
Knowing every spell in the game is kinda counterintuitive when you only have so many slots to cast them from, IMO.

I would gladly give up 3 schools of magic known for more slots. Heck, I already do. With the release of complete mage's focused specialist variant, I can't envision myself ever playing a generalist wizard ever again. You actually get more slots than a sorc! :smalleek:

Acanous
2011-01-31, 08:38 AM
Honestly, you can be the most cheese-filled wizard in the game with four schools total: Conjuration, Transmutation, Abjuration and Divination. Have access to all four of those, you can do practically anything. Or turn into something that can. Or summon one for you.

Tael
2011-01-31, 09:14 AM
Honestly, you can be the most cheese-filled wizard in the game with four schools total: Conjuration, Transmutation, Abjuration and Divination. Have access to all four of those, you can do practically anything. Or turn into something that can. Or summon one for you.

+1. I'm actually a specialist diviner in one of my games, but I'm wishing that I had been a focused specialist, as I literally have only cast 1 evocation & enchantment spell in weeks of playing, and no necromancy spells.

Killer Angel
2011-01-31, 10:08 AM
Again magic items are not a class feature. They are completely fluid based on the DM (within reason) Magic items=/= The Class that Uses them.

For wizards, as already pointed out, magic items are a class feature.
And generally, even with random generation for magical treasure and no magic mart, wizards (and all magic users), can use more magic objects than fighters & C.
Remove all the magical equipment, and wizards will only be moderately annoyed, while fighters will be totally screwed.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-31, 10:09 AM
Knowing every spell in the game is kinda counterintuitive when you only have so many slots to cast them from, IMO.

I would gladly give up 3 schools of magic known for more slots. Heck, I already do. With the release of complete mage's focused specialist variant, I can't envision myself ever playing a generalist wizard ever again. You actually get more slots than a sorc! :smalleek:

Elven generalist? I personally like having more free spells, and an extra ninth slot.

dextercorvia
2011-01-31, 10:30 AM
A wizard would still be awesome with Divination, Conjuration and Universal. or Divination, Transmutation and Universal. You'd miss some of the other stuff, but you wouldn't have any problems choosing enough good spells per day.

Heck if I were dropped into a 3.5 campaign setting a la the old D&D cartoon, I'd rather be a Focused Specialist Evoker dropping Conjuration, Transmutation and Illusion, than a Fighter.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-31, 11:03 AM
A wizard would still be awesome with Divination, Conjuration and Universal. or Divination, Transmutation and Universal. You'd miss some of the other stuff, but you wouldn't have any problems choosing enough good spells per day.

Heck if I were dropped into a 3.5 campaign setting a la the old D&D cartoon, I'd rather be a Focused Specialist Evoker dropping Conjuration, Transmutation and Illusion, than a Fighter.

Really? I'd be a jerk and go with PsyWar 1 for Magic Mantle/S2P Erudite/Ur-Priest/Theurge. Gotta love 9th level in both magics and psionics,

I'm pretty sure this is a "Captain Obvious!" thing, but it should still be said. S2P Erudite is basically probably the most busted class in the game, or at least one of them. Above wizard, anyways.

dextercorvia
2011-01-31, 11:29 AM
That was an ordinal argument, and in no way reflects my 1st choice. I was just noting that you can completely gimp a wizard and it still gets more interesting and powerful choices than a fighter.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-31, 11:33 AM
That was an ordinal argument, and in no way reflects my 1st choice. I was just noting that you can completely gimp a wizard and it still gets more interesting and powerful choices than a fighter.

That's 'cause fighters suck.

Factotums would be cooler than a gimped wizard, and possibly better, depending on how gimped we're talking.

Grelna the Blue
2011-01-31, 01:28 PM
I love playing wizards. Always have, and it's never been about their power level (well, it's mostly not about their power level). I just like the idea of wizardly magic and the associated archetypes.

However, it is true that the class is overpowered compared to most of the other core classes. This is solely because of the wide variety of powerful spells available to them, not because of any of their other (fairly laughable) class features. I currently play a wizard who I am sure is one of the least optimized characters to ever make it from 1st to 13th level. She's got 2 levels in rogue, no levels in any prestige class, several subpar feats, and is a standard issue necromancer who does not animate or control the undead. Her opposition schools are enchantment and illusion. Anyone with an optimizing bone in his/her body would roll on the floor laughing at this character's "build."

Despite that inbuilt weakness, she dominates combat with just a few of her (relatively small) selection of spells. Just a very few castings from her favored spells: Fear, Fly, Slow, Spiritwall, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, and Manyjaws, are generally all that is required to defeat most living opponents, although unless she is utterly confident she knows what she will face she has plenty reserved for undead or unliving opponents as well. Without the slightest cheese or any magic items whatsoever, she has 7 1st-3rd slots/day, plus 5 of 4th, 4 of 5th, and 3 of 6th. She doesn't run out quickly, even though I do load her down with spells of protection. I repeat, this is a very UNoptimized wizard in almost every way. She is not over WBL. Her Blessed Book has only 164 pages filled, out of the 1000 pages in it.

To "fix" the wizard class would require both eliminating or supernerfing the most powerful spells and sharply curtailing the number of spells to which wizards have access. Otherwise, clever players will find a way. Earlier people were discussing useless spells and Hold Portal came up. As a GM, I once came perilously close to TPKing a party faced by two rakshasa that cast Stinking Cloud (a spell to which they themselves are fairly immune) in a smallish room and Hold Portal to keep the party trapped there with them until they succumbed. Of course, if the party had included a wizard, they might have had less trouble.

Every spell, no matter how situational and generally useless, is a free wizard class ability, and when members of the class potentially have hundreds open to them there will always be ways for them to be used in creative and possibly gamebending ways. However, if the class were "fixed" in the ways mentioned above, wizards would no longer BE wizards. They'd be warmages or dread necros or some other variant that might be fun but wouldn't truly reflect the "master of arcane magic" motif to which wizards have traditionally been linked.

ArcanistSupreme
2011-01-31, 02:43 PM
To "fix" the wizard class would require both eliminating or supernerfing the most powerful spells and sharply curtailing the number of spells to which wizards have access. Otherwise, clever players will find a way. Earlier people were discussing useless spells and Hold Portal came up. As a GM, I once came perilously close to TPKing a party faced by two rakshasa that cast Stinking Cloud (a spell to which they themselves are fairly immune) in a smallish room and Hold Portal to keep the party trapped there with them until they succumbed. Of course, if the party had included a wizard, they might have had less trouble.

Curses, foiled! Although the DM does have a slight advantage when it comes to using that spell. Can somebody please name a spell that is basically worthless?

Ormur
2011-01-31, 08:41 PM
Curses, foiled! Although the DM does have a slight advantage when it comes to using that spell. Can somebody please name a spell that is basically worthless?

Ebon eyes. Although maybe someone can find a use for it they can make sense of what is actually does. There are other spells in the spell compendium that are of most use for melee casters assassins and rangers but are still fairly low level sorc/wiz spells too. Not much use for a wizard unless he polymorphs himself into a melee character or takes levels in unseen seer or something like that.

Cerlis
2011-01-31, 09:14 PM
Only have time for these three things, so i'll respond later


For wizards, as already pointed out, magic items are a class feature.
And generally, even with random generation for magical treasure and no magic mart, wizards (and all magic users), can use more magic objects than fighters & C.
Remove all the magical equipment, and wizards will only be moderately annoyed, while fighters will be totally screwed.
No magic items arent a class feature. The ability to make them is a class feature. Making them still requires Experience and Gold. A wizard does not have magic items that support them magically pop into being just by leveling up. Every other class feature does. A wizard "wastes" valuable gold and experience (risking getting behind the rest of the party) by making magic items. and though this is a good idea since its more efficient than wasting all your gold on magic items, it still requires a limited resources.(assuming the Dm is playing by the gold/experience limit per encounter/level, and if they are not then it is the Dm's house rule that is overpowering the wizard not the class itself).
Basically what i'm saying is when a wizard dings level 10 a Ring of Spell storing doesnt pop into existence. if the wizard doesnt have time to craft it or the Xp or gold to do so either, or buy it, then he doesnt get it. its a part of the loot system, not the mechanics of the class itself.


Originally Posted by Marillion
Wait, I'm confused. There are druids who DON'T take the Natural Spell feat???

Damn swordsages.

Yes there are. because not everyone wants to be a spell slinging bear. This is once again assuming that just because a strong path to power exists that every player will take it. The feat is overpowered, not the class.


Please, learn more about common topics before talking about them, at least as much for your sake as for the people who waste time reading/correcting your posts.
__________________

I've never claimed to be Omnicient and I believe i phrased many of the things i said as a question, and have never claimed to have unerring knowledge of the rules. The only thing i said as a statment as if in fact, rather than a leading statement or question, where things i was basically quoting from memory fromt he book.

Furthermore its fully possible for you to dispprove everything i said without being snide about it.

dextercorvia
2011-01-31, 09:16 PM
Curses, foiled! Although the DM does have a slight advantage when it comes to using that spell. Can somebody please name a spell that is basically worthless?

Well there is one that turns you into a Fighter w/o the bonus feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm).

CycloneJoker
2011-01-31, 09:30 PM
Only have time for these three things, so i'll respond later


No magic items arent a class feature. The ability to make them is a class feature. Making them still requires Experience and Gold. A wizard does not have magic items that support them magically pop into being just by leveling up. Every other class feature does. A wizard "wastes" valuable gold and experience (risking getting behind the rest of the party) by making magic items. and though this is a good idea since its more efficient than wasting all your gold on magic items, it still requires a limited resources.(assuming the Dm is playing by the gold/experience limit per encounter/level, and if they are not then it is the Dm's house rule that is overpowering the wizard not the class itself).
~Someone's never heard of the Thought Bottle~
Also, when you're making things worth twice the gold you use for it, GP is no object.
Basically what i'm saying is when a wizard dings level 10 a Ring of Spell storing doesnt pop into existence. if the wizard doesnt have time to craft it or the Xp or gold to do so either, or buy it, then he doesnt get it. its a part of the loot system, not the mechanics of the class itself.

See above, yeah it is a class feature. XP isn't lost anymore, and you just get more gold.

Yes there are. because not everyone wants to be a spell slinging bear. This is once again assuming that just because a strong path to power exists that every player will take it. The feat is overpowered, not the class.

Or how about both? I like getting two fighters in one class, how about you?

I've never claimed to be Omnicient and I believe i phrased many of the things i said as a question, and have never claimed to have unerring knowledge of the rules. The only thing i said as a statment as if in fact, rather than a leading statement or question, where things i was basically quoting from memory fromt he book.
Wow, strawman. I think you should KNOW about the subject, as in, have the understanding of my 10 year old cousin after reading the book twice.
Furthermore its fully possible for you to dispprove everything i said without being snide about it.

Yeah, it is. Your point?

ArcanistSupreme
2011-01-31, 10:30 PM
Well there is one that turns you into a Fighter w/o the bonus feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm).

I could see a rogue picking up a scroll/item of this and going to town. It doesn't prevent the use of UMD, does it?


Stuff about magic items

Please go back and read some of the points others have made on this earlier. If a wizard doesn't get any gold or magic items, neither does anyone else. Who is worse off, the wizard or the fighter? Keep in mind that weapons and armor are bought with gold and are fairly worthless if they are nonmagical.


Yes there are. because not everyone wants to be a spell slinging bear. This is once again assuming that just because a strong path to power exists that every player will take it. The feat is overpowered, not the class.

While I agree that that feat makes things worse, the Druid doesn't need that much help. And in core-only games, that feat is pretty much guaranteed to be taken. Druids are really hard to mess up, and at worst are decent rather than amazing.


Furthermore its fully possible for you to dispprove everything i said without being snide about it.

It's not that we disapprove, it's more that we're trying to explain our side of the argument. If I have ever come across as snide, I apologize.

dextercorvia
2011-01-31, 11:14 PM
I could see a rogue picking up a scroll/item of this and going to town. It doesn't prevent the use of UMD, does it?

Good point. I'll keep looking. Imagine the Wizard though, who adds this spell to his book and just churns out scrolls of it for the local thieves guild.

faceroll
2011-02-01, 02:51 AM
Yes, but without the wizard magic the Fighter never would have done it. Not all wizards are boastful. A good leader knows when to let other take their credit and be humble. The wizard acted like a great leader.

That's like awarding a medal of honor to the APC that delivered the guy who killed 50 nazis with a mortar he used as an improvised grenade launcher.


Eh, I find most melee characters boring. You don't have options. If my only choices were between "move and attack" and "stand still and full attack," I'd spend the entire combat playing on the computer. It's not like I'd need to be paying attention to do anything...

So not true. Playing a fighter and playing a fighter means things like flanking bonuses, higher terrain, charging or not charging, readying against a charge, using reach, tripping, cleaving, single target focusing, when to provoke an attack of opportunity and when to take one, etc. I've actually found that playing rogues and fighters is HARD. Newbs actually do way better with casters. Wizards are super easy to play. You just fling out gimme spells and twiddle your thumbs (mine always smoke a pipe).


Glitterdust works just fine on shadows and wraiths, better than anything fighters can throw at them.

They have low AC and low HP. Ghost touch weapon (or a magic weapon) and some power attack, and they go down quite quickly. Glitterdust just means the wraith has a 50% chance of missing the wizard for CL rounds, if it even lands. Doesn't do anything to actually stop the undead.


If you have to specifically counter a class, it's probably too strong. Do you ever have to specifically counter a Fighter, or Barbarian? A Monk, or Ranger? Paladin, even?

Yes. Well built melee characters are death to anything they can touch. Figuring out how to limit the ungodly amount of damage they can pour out on something requires some thought.

Killer Angel
2011-02-01, 03:28 AM
No magic items arent a class feature. The ability to make them is a class feature. Making them still requires Experience and Gold.

I can concede that. But the GPs spent are A LOT less than buying the items, and even if the xp loss can be annoying... it'll be in the same way all casters lose xps casting spells: Commune, Permanency, Limited wish, and so on.
Casters tend to lose some xps, in regard to melee classes, and it's not a problem for their power.
Still, creating magic items is a class feature... they need time, and a DM can avoid it with a rushing campaign, when time is a real problem; at that point, it's a specific setting that nerfs a class feature. I can be fine with it, the wiz. will buy the scrolls he needs.

And if he can't... well, if you limit the access to magical objects, the non-casters, will suffer more than the casters.

LordBlades
2011-02-01, 06:16 AM
How many times has this debate been done to death already? I think there have been hundreds of threads on all D&D forums about how casters are not more powerful than non-casters.

Regarding druids and natural spell: It's both a very good feat and the only druid only feat in PHB (the book where the druid is), so it will probably be taken by both the people with good system knowledge that want to be good druids, and people without system knowledge, because a feat designed specifically for your class should be good for the class, right? Only people I'd see not taking natural spell would be people that know the power of natural spell, and deliberately want to gimp their build.

Saying some people don't take natural spell because 'they don't want to be spell slinging bears' has about as much weight on the debate regarding the power of the druid as me saying that there are people that build a fighter by putting their highest scores in Int Wis and Cha because they want to play smart, wise and charismatic warriors.

Regarding 'Schroedinger's wizard': It's the most widely used anti-wizard argument IMHO, but it's a bit of a straw man. Yes, a wizard couldn't have the perfect spell for ALL the arbitrarily high number of suggested scenarios AT ONCE. But a wizard, the same wizard can have the perfect spell for ANY of the aforementioned scenarios, and thanks to divinations, he'll probably have a decent knowledge of what to prepare in a given day(I don't mean the slot-by-slot CoP optimization, just a single cast with general questions gives you a basic picture). Whereas a non-caster that relies on class abilities and feats for his tricks can't really change his focus without making a new char.

true_shinken
2011-02-01, 07:15 AM
It wasn't a close fight.
It wasn't by RAW as well. No such thing as 'passive Listen/Spot' (they could have located him with a high roll).
The party made some awful choices as well. Two initiators, a manifester... and no one had scent or blindsense? Why the hell was the Paladin trying to escape a grapple with Escape Artist instead of a grapple check?
...Heck, this Tome of Battle beyond level 5. Where's my Iron Heart Surge? Take that fog away!

Greenish
2011-02-01, 08:55 AM
They have low AC and low HP. Ghost touch weapon (or a magic weapon) and some power attack, and they go down quite quickly.There's a school of thought that maintains that magic items are not class features. :smalltongue:

Amphetryon
2011-02-01, 09:01 AM
Passive Spot/Listen checks are useful in preventing newbies from asking for multiple rerolls and avoiding metagaming.

Paladin had roughly equal odds of escape artist vs grapple check, perhaps? Paladin's actions were on a timer to keep the game moving, perhaps?

IHS would allow the initiator to see through the fog; the fog is a spell, not a status condition. Siting poorly worded mechanics commonly referred to as 'broken' (a la "I IHS out the sun!") as a viable strategy? Not in actual game play.

true_shinken
2011-02-01, 09:44 AM
Passive Spot/Listen checks are useful in preventing newbies from asking for multiple rerolls and avoiding metagaming.
It's also useful to make sure a DMPC wizard pwns everyone before they get their turn, isn't it? :smallamused:


Paladin had roughly equal odds of escape artist vs grapple check, perhaps?
That's a very weird Paladin, then. We're talking about a grapple check of +15 here. A Paladin usually wears heavy armor and has low Dex. Now, a sixth level Paladin with Strenght 16 has a +9. He just needs a little luck to escape. An optimized Paladin would even have a Paladin spell on a wand sheathe (say, Knight's Move).

Paladin's actions were on a timer to keep the game moving, perhaps?
That's hardly fair. The DM gets the whole week to plan an encounters and forces the players to resolve their actions fast, without even telling them there are ways they could do it better? Saying "dude, your grapple check is way higher than your Escape Artist check. Besides, you can have two grapple checks a round, because you have bab +6." hardly takes any time.


IHS would allow the initiator to see through the fog; the fog is a spell, not a status condition. Siting poorly worded mechanics commonly referred to as 'broken' (a la "I IHS out the sun!") as a viable strategy? Not in actual game play.
So the initiator can see (and move) through the fog and locate the caster. He could also escape the grapple with IHS. That swordsage guy could use Shadow Jaunt to escape as well.
This is a comparison of a well-used Wizard against badly-used other characters. Let's see how they could escape/attack:
*Crusader - He is focused on Devoted Spirit, so he probably doesn't have Iron Heart Surge (it costs feats and everything for a Crusader, right?). He could still use White Raven Tactics to give someone else another turn so they could escape. Moving through the fog is hard for him, he should focus on freeing his team mates (WRT or aid another).
*Sorcerer - This is the worst offender. He is focused on draconic feats, for crying out loud! How did he get grappled and hit by Vortex of Teeth?! What about Wings of Cover?
*Fighter/Ranger - This guy is pretty much screwed, really. With high strenght he could escape with help of WRT, though.
*Kalashtar Kineticist 4/Swordsage 2 - Many teleportation powers and Shadow Jaunt. Solid Fog/grapple should do nothing to hinder this guy. Also, he has Escape Artist as a class skill and is probably Dex focused - if he maxed it and had Dex 16, he could have a +12. With White Raven Tactics from the Crusader, he would be out in no time.
*Paladin - Wasn't grappled, hard to find the Wizard, Benign Transposition was probably a good choice. If he had a wand of Knight's Move to get out of the grapple it would be even better.
*Rogue/Shaper - Again, teleportation powers and Escape Artist.
I really can't see this fight being so one sided the way it's described. A wizard under greater invisibility would be a credible threat, but this guy has to get withing charging range to cast black tentacles and is visible. How did the Crusader and Paladin not cream him?

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-02-01, 04:08 PM
That's like awarding a medal of honor to the APC that delivered the guy who killed 50 nazis with a mortar he used as an improvised grenade launcher.

Not when that APC is also the mortor, too. There are some encounters where a core-only fighter will have massive issues if not for the wizard, making the wizard more of a panzer tank than just an APC.

Coidzor
2011-02-01, 04:43 PM
What are we even talking about at this point, really? Do we still know or is everyone as muddled about it as it seems from just reading the most recent couple of pages?

Greenish
2011-02-01, 04:49 PM
What are we even talking about at this point, really?I think this is a disguised monk thread.

true_shinken
2011-02-01, 05:25 PM
I think this is a disguised monk thread.
I knew it all along! When in doubt, blame the monks.

BoutsofInsanity
2011-02-01, 07:08 PM
Heres, the thing, people forget the dm can make or change rules. We had one character in our game dominating combat at low levels. COG SKULLTAKER, anyway, a really good player, combined with really good stats gave him an advantage in combat over everyone else. As a dm looking at that problem, he should provide opportunities for the players to shine.
So, have a net thrown on Cog, set the save where only a 17 or higher would save, unless interferred by the party, then make him be stuck for one or two rounds while the rest of the party
A free him
B defend him while he frees himself
So they can do cool stuff, and then he mops up the combat. You dont do this everytime, just every now and then to allow the other players oppertunity to shine.

Apply that to mages, we got a mage who has all these contingencies against stuff, so in the middle of the battle, that enemy rogue whereing cloak of anti detection, poisoned dagger of magic removal sneak attacks the mage, dropping him to being poisoned and having a spell failure chance. Boom, mage neutralized for a couple of rounds till the cleric / wizard does somthing.

THe point is, the dm has the choice to throw new stuff at the players. At level 10, the bad guy would have researched the players and be prepared for the wizard. Stick the mage and party in a wild magic room and watch hilarity ensue, dont punish the mage for optimizing, but in game, come up with ways to counter act the mage. That pit fiend he just enslaved? Guess what, he was a servant to Evil demon number 2, and he is pissed that his Lt. is gone. He comes a knocking in the fight.

Just ideas and suggestions, curious to see what the responses are, cause if these cant work, I need to know before I try them out in my games. I would liek feedback on the ideas please.

Gnaeus
2011-02-01, 07:53 PM
So, have a net thrown on Cog, set the save where only a 17 or higher would save, unless interferred by the party, then make him be stuck for one or two rounds while the rest of the party
A free him
B defend him while he frees himself
So they can do cool stuff, and then he mops up the combat. You dont do this everytime, just every now and then to allow the other players oppertunity to shine.

IMO: Setting up encounters to play into a characters weaknesses, as long as it is not done all the time, is good strategy. Min-maxing means that you have to suffer the min as well as enjoying the max.

but

"Setting the save where only a 17 or higher would save" seems to me like bad form. If the player had ignored a certain save, he should suffer the penalties. If he had worked to improve the save, he should enjoy the results. Arbitrarily setting what he needs to roll (if that is indeed what you are doing, not 100% sure) trivializes his character choices. If I work really hard to give my fighter an extra +3 to hit, and the DM responds by adding 3 to every monster's AC, I may as well not have bothered.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-02-01, 08:27 PM
Heres, the thing, people forget the dm can make or change rules. We had one character in our game dominating combat at low levels. COG SKULLTAKER, anyway, a really good player, combined with really good stats gave him an advantage in combat over everyone else. As a dm looking at that problem, he should provide opportunities for the players to shine.

If the DM has to Rule 0 something, then, odds are, it's either too strong or too weak as written, further reinforcing that it is in fact an issue.



So, have a net thrown on Cog, set the save where only a 17 or higher would save, unless interferred by the party, then make him be stuck for one or two rounds while the rest of the party
A free him
B defend him while he frees himself
So they can do cool stuff, and then he mops up the combat. You dont do this everytime, just every now and then to allow the other players oppertunity to shine.

RAW, a successful net would only entangle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#entangled) him. So, unless he was either a DEX or charge monkey, he would have been largely fine.


Apply that to mages, we got a mage who has all these contingencies against stuff, so in the middle of the battle, that enemy rogue whereing cloak of anti detection, poisoned dagger of magic removal sneak attacks the mage, dropping him to being poisoned and having a spell failure chance. Boom, mage neutralized for a couple of rounds till the cleric / wizard does somthing.

Again, this is Rule 0. The mage have 0 knowledge of it, despite whatever his divinations or knowledge skills would have otherwise offered him.


THe point is, the dm has the choice to throw new stuff at the players. At level 10, the bad guy would have researched the players and be prepared for the wizard. Stick the mage and party in a wild magic room and watch hilarity ensue, dont punish the mage for optimizing, but in game, come up with ways to counter act the mage. That pit fiend he just enslaved? Guess what, he was a servant to Evil demon number 2, and he is pissed that his Lt. is gone. He comes a knocking in the fight.

New stuff is one thing. If Complete Champion has been on the table for a while but no one's using it for whatever reason, and the DM decides to throw some CC stuff at them, it's the players' issue. Considering the vast amount of resources 3.5 has, the DM should be able to throw something largely new at the party... barring maybe a wizard with massive amounts of smart divination uses.