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View Full Version : [D&D 3.5] Psi-Gish with ToB?



Vin Robinson
2011-01-29, 12:03 AM
Two things I've never really played with in 3.5 are Tomb of Battle and Psionics. I then noticed how you can expend your psionic focus to "take 15" on a concentration check, and how concentration is the key skill for Diamond Mind.

So I was just wondering how you impliment Psionics with a Diamond Mind focused initiator.

Do you go Swordsage / Psychic Warrior for Wis Synergy?

Warblade / Psion?

I'm really flailing around in the dark here. Any information you guys can provide would be greatly appreciated.

The-Mage-King
2011-01-29, 12:18 AM
Two things I've never really played with in 3.5 are Tomb of Battle and Psionics. I then noticed how you can expend your psionic focus to "take 15" on a concentration check, and how concentration is the key skill for Diamond Mind.

So I was just wondering how you impliment Psionics with a Diamond Mind focused initiator.

Do you go Swordsage / Psychic Warrior for Wis Synergy?

Warblade / Psion?

I'm really flailing around in the dark here. Any information you guys can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Well, I've never heard of this book called "Tomb of Battle", though there's this really awesome one called "Tome of Battle".... :smalltongue:

Anyway, I believe the traditional method is Swordsage/Ardent, for Wis synergy and being able to get higher level powers, though I could be wrong...

Psyren
2011-01-29, 12:55 AM
Swordsage/Ardent is the common non-homebrew method. Or you could just pick up some maneuvers with a Psywar.

There is a nice Initiator/Manifester homebrew PrC floating around here somewhere if you're open to that.

Keld Denar
2011-01-29, 05:00 AM
I'm currently playing an Ephemeral Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5883542), made by the awesome Eldariel. Its a blast. I went with Ardent as a base, since its more friendly for multiclassing. I got the Freedom mantle, since it has a number of Psychoportation powers, especially the awesome Dimension Hop. I picked up a +1 Mindfeeder falchion (with MIC one, not the XPH one, its better), and I crit a lot. Every time I crit, I can channel a power, activate Warp Blade, or Dim Hop around, pretty much for free. Best thing is expending my focus to take 15 on my Conc checks for Insightful Strike or Ruby Nightmare Blade. Lots of neat stuff there, very fun to play.

Amphetryon
2011-01-29, 07:34 AM
Wilder/Crusader into a psi-adapted Jade Phoenix Mage is another possibility.

Psyren
2011-01-29, 08:15 AM
Ephemeral Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5883542)

THAT'S the one... +1 recommendation from me

Ernir
2011-01-29, 12:03 PM
Anyway, I believe the traditional method is Swordsage/Ardent, for Wis synergy and being able to get higher level powers, though I could be wrong...
Yeah. Swordsage 4/Ardent 16, where you take Practiced Manifester and intersperse the Swordsage levels so that you're only taking them when doing so makes your initiator level an odd number = good stuff.

Also, another homebrew: the War Mind in my signature.

Pechvarry
2011-01-29, 12:49 PM
So how bad is it to NOT use ardent? The aforementioned swordsage/psychic warrior (please use fractional BAB!) or a psion/warblade, or perhaps swordsage straight into the printed version of War Mind.

Would these really be very bad? They seem like they should keep up pretty well with a full-blooded ToB class -- that sacred tier 3 range.

Psyren
2011-01-29, 01:14 PM
So how bad is it to NOT use ardent? The aforementioned swordsage/psychic warrior (please use fractional BAB!) or a psion/warblade, or perhaps swordsage straight into the printed version of War Mind.

Would these really be very bad? They seem like they should keep up pretty well with a full-blooded ToB class -- that sacred tier 3 range.

Psywar is useful, sure, but Ardent has very critical advantages.

1) Their power progression is directly linked to ML rather than linear (like every other casting class) - this lets them "skip levels" when learning powers. An Ardent who loses 4 ML to Swordsage can still learn 9th-level powers.

2) They get far more PP than a Psywar at each level (nearly 3x.)

3) The Psywar's primary advantage - MWP - is meaningless here because you get that from Swordsage instead.

4) With Mantle substitution, they can get every power a Psywar can and more - plus useful Mantle abilities, which can be equivalent to a Psywar's bonus feats


Having said all that, Psywar has some great low level powers that would benefit a Swordsage, so that combination is certainly viable as well - particularly if you grab a Soulbound Weapon or Mantles of your own using Mind's Eye.

Hammerhead
2011-01-29, 02:27 PM
I played a Warblade/Egoist/Iron Mind back when the ToB came out, sneaking Warblade levels in at every 3rd level. Here's what I remember creating problems for me:

It was a bit frustrating using all my feats just to establish the basics like class qualification and decent ML, but that was more a matter of the build than anything. All my powers were pretty low level, but that would be fixed with the Ardent. With all the demands psionics placed on Psychic Focus, there wasn't much room to use it for taking 15, so there wasn't a whole lot of synergy between the two.

Due to action economy constraints, a lot of my PP went out through a Deep Crystal weapon. I could have fixed that with Link Power, Quicken Power and a greater emphasis on long-duration or swift-cast Psion spells.

It would have been much easier to do this well if I'd had access to a Psionics/ToB prestige class, but the system was new and I didn't feel familiar enough with it to make one. I'm sure The Internet has an abundance of them by now, if you look.

Ernir
2011-01-29, 03:16 PM
So how bad is it to NOT use ardent? The aforementioned swordsage/psychic warrior (please use fractional BAB!) or a psion/warblade, or perhaps swordsage straight into the printed version of War Mind.

Would these really be very bad? They seem like they should keep up pretty well with a full-blooded ToB class -- that sacred tier 3 range.

You will not get 9th level powers if you meaningfully dip into ToB, that's how bad it is.
Which isn't as bad as missing out on 9ths when you're casting spells, since Psionics can (theoretically, at least) get more mileage out of lower level powers than spellcasters can out of low level spells due to augments.

The biggest problem I'd see with it is that dipping back into the ToB classes for low level maneuvers is pretty hard when the alternative that is getting higher level powers is right in front of you. =/

classy one
2011-01-29, 03:50 PM
Nothing is wrong with going with psywar/swordsage rather than ardent/swordsage.

Ardent will give you better powers and in general make you more of a caster rather than a hitter. And no, mantles are not like bonus feats, not even close. Most mantle abilities suck (with the exception of freedom, fate and time) and don't hold a candle next to what a psywar can do with his bonus feats. As a psywar/swordsage you will be buffing with your powers, using insightful strike (or whatever move you favor) and refreshing it with psychic renewal. If anything psywar is more combat centered than ardent for obvious reasons, 9th levels powers maybe more "optimal" overall, but in the end if you what to hit stuff then psywar is the way to go.


Swordsage/warmind is an excellant option as sweeping strike is just lovely when combined with manuveurs. War mind is one of the more underrated PrC IMO.

Cieyrin
2011-01-29, 05:03 PM
Swordsage/warmind is an excellant option as sweeping strike is just lovely when combined with manuveurs. War mind is one of the more underrated PrC IMO.

Hence why it was an ingredient in a recent Iron Chef competition on these very forums, which did include a couple Swordsage/Warminds. :smallwink:

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-29, 11:57 PM
Hence why it was an ingredient in a recent Iron Chef competition on these very forums, which did include a couple Swordsage/Warminds. :smallwink:

Yea, I didn't participate because the only thing I could think of when I saw 'warmind' was 'bag of puppies'...

Sweeping Strike + Great Cleave = lots of free attacks...

PsiWar has some good powers to manifest. Expansion is good for damage and reach upgrade. Hustle is a trap, because you have better things to do with your swift action. Psionic Lion's Pounce is good if you don't want to blow a maneuver on Pouncing Strike, or just want to do it more than once per combat. Duodimensional Claw is pretty good for unarmed swordsages. Dimensional Slide is pretty darn handy for mobility. Particularly if you blow the augment for manifesting it as a move action. Empathic Transfer, Hostile is always a fun one, as is Empathic Feedback.

Psyren
2011-01-30, 12:34 AM
Sweeping Strike + Great Cleave = lots of free attacks...


SS only lets you cleave once, so Great Cleave would be useless with it.


And no, mantles are not like bonus feats, not even close.

Oh?
First off, some of them actually give you bonus feats (Conflict, Creation, Destruction.) Force is roughly equivalent to Psionic Dodge. Some have even more powerful effects - Deception gives you 50% concealment at-will at first-level; everyone knows how good Freedom and Time are; I rank Justice and Guardian as equivalent to feats also; Magic gives you UMD as a class skill, which is again equivalent to a feat, etc.

"Not even close" is utterly wrong.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-30, 12:11 PM
SS only lets you cleave once, so Great Cleave would be useless with it.

Close... it only allows one cleave per sweeping strike. So if you drop two mooks with sweeping strike, you still only get one cleave from those two mooks dropping.


Sweeping Strike (Ex)

At 5th level, a war mind gains the ability to make great, sweeping swings with a melee weapon. On each melee attack a war mind makes, he can choose squares he threatens that are adjacent to each other, and his attacks apply to creatures in those two squares equally. A war mind can use this ability on any attack, even an attack of opportunity or a cleave attempt.

A war mind cannot use this ability if he has moved more than 10 feet since the end of his last turn. If a war mind drops one or both of his foes with a sweeping strike, he can attempt a cleave normally; however, he makes only one cleave attempt per sweeping strike, even if he drops more than one foe.

The part you are quoting is specifically rules referring to what happens when you kill more than one critter in a sweeping strike, not more than one per turn.

So, here's the combo:

I drop a bag of puppies on the floor next to my opponent.

I swing at a puppy, sweeping strike gives me a free shot on my opponent.

I killed a puppy, so I get a free attack from Great Cleave. I use this to kill another puppy. Sweeping Strike gives me another free shot on my opponent.

Repeat until puppies are dead, or opponent is a greasy stain.

Endarire
2011-01-30, 08:55 PM
I like my Diamond Heart (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7686.0) PrC.

Psyren
2011-01-30, 10:06 PM
Repeat until puppies are dead, or opponent is a greasy stain.

What that combo lets you do is continue to sweep your opponent as long as you can successfully kill a creature in an adjacent square with each swing. Unless your DM subscribes to the "cleave off a bag of tricks" (or puppies, to use your example) strategy, this is not a viable tactic for a longer battle, as the combo ends once you have successfully cleared the squares next to your opponent.

Which leads to the normal problem with Great Cleave: anything weak enough for it to work on, you didn't need it; anything strong enough for it to come in handy, it won't work. And how many boss monsters stand with their mooks clustered cheek-by-jowl around them anyway?

Keld Denar
2011-01-30, 10:37 PM
I agree. Cleave is a decent feat, especially if you have a reach weapon. Great Cleave, however, is really not worth it, even for a goofy Warmind.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-31, 02:09 AM
What that combo lets you do is continue to sweep your opponent as long as you can successfully kill a creature in an adjacent square with each swing. Unless your DM subscribes to the "cleave off a bag of tricks" (or puppies, to use your example) strategy, this is not a viable tactic for a longer battle, as the combo ends once you have successfully cleared the squares next to your opponent.

Which leads to the normal problem with Great Cleave: anything weak enough for it to work on, you didn't need it; anything strong enough for it to come in handy, it won't work. And how many boss monsters stand with their mooks clustered cheek-by-jowl around them anyway?

Cheek and jowl? Spiked Chain + Expansion or Enlarge Person + assorted other methods of reach enhancement = 30' radius of hawt death. Who needs to have them next to each other? Heck, they can be 60' away from each other, with you in the middle, and you're still hitting them both.

Furthermore, with Pounce, Power Attack, and Shock Trooper, you're still doing obscene amounts of damage per hit to ensure one-hit kills on darn near anything.

MeeposFire
2011-01-31, 02:13 AM
Close... it only allows one cleave per sweeping strike. So if you drop two mooks with sweeping strike, you still only get one cleave from those two mooks dropping.



The part you are quoting is specifically rules referring to what happens when you kill more than one critter in a sweeping strike, not more than one per turn.

So, here's the combo:

I drop a bag of puppies on the floor next to my opponent.

I swing at a puppy, sweeping strike gives me a free shot on my opponent.

I killed a puppy, so I get a free attack from Great Cleave. I use this to kill another puppy. Sweeping Strike gives me another free shot on my opponent.

Repeat until puppies are dead, or opponent is a greasy stain.

This is why the bag of rats rule was created in 4e or should it be a bag of puppies?

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-31, 11:10 AM
This is why the bag of rats rule was created in 4e or should it be a bag of puppies?

What, there was an actual 4e ruling concerning this?

I am oddly amused...

Pechvarry
2011-01-31, 11:41 AM
Who needs to have them next to each other? Heck, they can be 60' away from each other, with you in the middle, and you're still hitting them both.

Luckily, Sweeping Strike requires you to choose 2 adjacent squares within your reach. Still, 30' reach means every time 2 bad guys are next to each other, they're automatically your top targets.