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Typewriter
2011-01-29, 02:26 AM
Original thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183532
*Please don't post in the original thread, as I believe it's well past necromancy....

Short version:

Before this campaign started I asked the other players and DM if they would mind me playing evil as long as I wasn't horrible/stupid evil. Everyone said yes.

We grew up with each other, and my character was a bit odd, at one point raging out and punching a girl in the back of the head. At age 7.

Later on in life we go on an adventure, and my character has visions that seem to imply that he should burn down a church. No one (in character) knows he did this, but suddenly the party is treating him differently.

A goddess appears to the party and my character (being an atheist) brushes it off as a trick and moves towards the party McGuffin. She tells the party to stop because they've been lied to and the parties lawful good (previously not religious, now completely converted) charges my character and deals 60-something points of damage.

Inner party conflict/debate ensues. People keep treating me like I'm an evil kind of guy who burns down churches, so I reveal that I burned down the church, so that I could explain my reasoning.


So I no longer enjoy RPing my character. In order to explain the reasons my character did what he did I had to do something I would normally never do with him (reveal that he was the one who started the fire). To keep party dynamics going I have to not murder the one who attacked me in his sleep (and has never apologized).

The other players (especially stabby) keep talking about how evil my character is, and how he wants the orb for himself. They are doing this out of character. None of this is true. I didn't want to leave the orb in an unsafe place, especially when we had been searching for it, and broadcasting to half the world where we were searching for it. Combine that with the fact that the whole reason I left home was to find it, as well as the fact that it could grant me power - why abandon it?

The DM agrees with me, and wants me to keep playing the character since I'm the only one really roleplaying. He agrees with me that the decision to stab my character wasn't based off my current actions but instead off the fact that my sheet said "Evil", and that I had (unknowingly to the party) burnt down a church. I asked him if I was being an ass, and he knows how much I'm bothered, so I asked him if there was something I didn't know about - some way they could have known about my actions before this point - and he said no.

So, now, my character has realized that he's been interpreting the dreams wrong (big surprise!!!), and needs to request forgiveness from the church he burnt down. I use this as an excuse to get him away from the party, because at this point I no longer know how to RP him without killing party members, and that's not something I want to do. Not only that but I've had to completely shift his personality to be able to counter party meta-gaming. In other words, the character is just no longer fun.

How about another fun instance? The DM sent out an e-mail during the week asking about watch rotation (if there were any), and I responded by saying my character would say we should take turns watching the orb, or guarding over whoever has the orb (because I knew option 1 was going to be shot down). One person responds to me a couple times, and nothing gets resolved. They arrive tonight and tell me they had come up with a watch themselves, and that they weren't including me. Ok, yeah, that makes sense in character. How about the fact that I had already been discussing this with them. Oh, we're going to pretend that didn't happen. So either my character didn't say anything about watch after all, or they lied to him and decided his player doesn't get any say in what happens.

The session ends and immediately the guy who stabbed me starts talking about how they're probably going to have to fight my character later since he so desperately wants the orb and is evil, etc. etc.

Fun fact: The recent dreams my character has had, and some of his opinions changing, have shifted his alignment to Neutral.

So I go off. But not in a good, logical way. I tell him my character is going to come back with levels of wizard (I level in whatever has currently been interesting my character, and he's been aiming towards wizard for a while), and use illusions to create images of his goddess blowing hundreds of dudes. I tell him I'm going to drive his character mad, then kill him. I say it's crap that he attacked me when, up to that point in the campaign, I had done nothing that would make him think I was anything less than LG. He says nothing during this time (meaning he's pissed), and everyone disperses.

Pretty much the same as my last post, I'm aggravated and I needed a place to vent. I'm really concerned this campaign is going to suffer because of this, and it's BS. I'm tired of people(someone) meta-gaming knowledge about my character, and then dictating my characters actions and personality out of character when nothing he says is true.

I think on Monday I'm going to send an e-mail out to the party explaining everything that's happened and tell them exactly what's going on with my character. It's essentially going to make him even more unplayable for me (the goal had originally been for him to go apologize for his crimes, then return to the party if possible, while I play a temp character in the meantime), but at least I won't have to listen to it anymore.

Gamer Girl
2011-01-29, 02:47 AM
I see this type of thing all the time.

Supposedly, good normal people want the truth. They want you to be up front and honest with them about everything, and they in turn promise not to judge you or hold anything against you.


This Is Not The Way The World Works

If you dare to say one thing a person does not like, they will hold it against you forever.

And then these people sit down to role-play. A good role-player can separate real things from game things....the bad role-players can't.

Take the classic 'evil thief' in the party. Every so often the character will steal from the party..as they are a thief. Good role players just laugh it off. The bad ones...take it personality as if they the player are being attacked.(they are the same person who will think you don't like them if you attack them in a game like Risk).


Your solution here is the easy one...don't be so open and honest. Don't tell everyone your alignment. Don't share game information at all.

In all my games, I have this simple house rule:players do not have to share game information with other players unless they wish to. Quite often players have no idea who or what the other characters in the game are at all. No one looks at the other peoples sheets or anything like that.

You might want to see if the 'no information' style might work for you. If your group demands that you all share all information and hug.....then your only option left is to lie.


Take your character:But starting out as evil, you put everyone against you(it's like saying your raciest in real life). But if you would have started out as a good character, who then over the course of time fell from grace to become evil..that would be much more accepted. You could (pretend) to fight the evil, while they sat back and felt sorry for you.

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-29, 02:49 AM
Technically, it's not thread necromancy; for that, the thread has to have not been posted on for more than a month and fallen past page 5 on the list of threads. Your thread appears to have met only one of those conditions.

And just a question, here - why aren't you killing McStabby? :smallconfused: I mean, if your character would take vengeance, and the only reason you're not doing it is because he's a fellow player character, then you're metagaming, too...

Though if one's going to metagame, doing it to not kill another PC is certainly a lesser evil...
Your solution here is the easy one...don't be so open and honest. Don't tell everyone your alignment. Don't share game information at all.Agreed. Sadly, since it doesn't seem that they're going to suddenly forget your alignment, this advice is a bit of a lost cause, though I'd also suggest keeping your actions a secret from your fellow PCs as well. If you can't pull the GM aside when you want to do something with your character that doesn't involve them, try passing notes or talking with him outside a session.

And lastly, if the game's been made so unfun by these metagaming (insert euphemism here)s, it might be best to just drop the game entirely. I realize this probably isn't the solution you want to hear, but if it's really that bad, it may be the best solution available.

Typewriter
2011-01-29, 03:24 AM
Technically, it's not thread necromancy; for that, the thread has to have not been posted on for more than a month and fallen past page 5 on the list of threads. Your thread appears to have met only one of those conditions.

And just a question, here - why aren't you killing McStabby? :smallconfused: I mean, if your character would take vengeance, and the only reason you're not doing it is because he's a fellow player character, then you're metagaming, too...

Though if one's going to metagame, doing it to not kill another PC is certainly a lesser evil...Agreed. Sadly, since it doesn't seem that they're going to suddenly forget your alignment, this advice is a bit of a lost cause, though I'd also suggest keeping your actions a secret from your fellow PCs as well. If you can't pull the GM aside when you want to do something with your character that doesn't involve them, try passing notes or talking with him outside a session.

And lastly, if the game's been made so unfun by these metagaming (insert euphemism here)s, it might be best to just drop the game entirely. I realize this probably isn't the solution you want to hear, but if it's really that bad, it may be the best solution available.

Yeah, I know I'm meta-gaming at this point. That's what's ruining the character for me so much. I don't want to create too much havok so I wrote the character out. Keep in mind that not killing him is the second time I meta-gamed. The first time was revealing what I had done so that I could explain the actions behind it (since people were acting like they already knew).

I'm fine with them not trusting my character in game at this point (though I hate how we got here), but what's getting to me now is that people are dictating my characters thoughts/actions out of character.

I agree though that trying to be upfront is part of what got me here. In past campaigns we've always made sure that 'evil' actions occur away from the table. I've always seen that lead to trouble though as people become distrustful since one or more players is constantly getting up from the table with the DM and/or passing notes. I figured that doing my actions honestly would prevent that trouble.

/wrong

I would probably drop from the campaign but there's one small problem with that. I'm the host. Even when I'm not the DM I tend to be the one to send out e-mails, or at the very least remind the DM to. I buy extra copies of books that are in high demand for use around the table. I own around 500 dollars worth of Heroscape tiles.

I'm fine with moving past this, but I don't see it happening with that character, especially now that I've made an ass out of myself chewing the other player out.

Believe me when I say that I don't consider myself to be 100% in the right on any of this. I didn't handle much of this well (counter meta-gaming with.... meta-gaming, counter talking about my character with insulting his character), so I need to make peace. I just need to do so without that character. Unfortunately.

Grendus
2011-01-29, 08:41 AM
I think you just need to discuss it with the other players. Open by apologizing for blowing up at them, then tell them that you feel like your character is being singled out for his alignment rather than his actions. You're not being chaotic stupid, you aren't slaughtering random villagers (or at least, not without a good RP reason - even the heroes sometimes cause casualties) and you've been intentionally holding back from attacking fellow party members even though you actually have a good RP reason for doing so.

And never play an evil character again, unless they seriously mature up. Sounds like your group can't move past the handlebar mustache and tying girls to railroad tracks version of evil, which makes trying to have a deep evil character downright impossible.

Talyn
2011-01-29, 10:45 AM
Maybe you should take a look at why you wanted to play an evil character in the first place - because frankly, from your description, it seems like you just wanted to screw with people.

The game is about socializing with friends first, last, and always. By creating an evil character, you have basically put yourself "against" the other players and the GM in the way that isn't conducive to socializing or to having fun. And when that happens, you are the one who comes off as a jerk, not the other players.

If these people are your friends and you want to continue gaming with them, ditch this character and create a new one. If staying "true to character" is more important than getting along with these people, you should probably find a new group, or at least play a different game with them. I hear Settlers of Catan is fun.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-29, 10:59 AM
Original thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183532
*Please don't post in the original thread, as I believe it's well past necromancy....

Short version:
(being an atheist)


How does being an atheist work in D&D?
What definition are you using?
1) Are you defining gods as beings who created the world but aren't worthy of bein worshipped
2) Gods aren't special just high level adventurers who gain power
3) third option.

Seeing as D&D has clerics meet with their gods pretty easy, I don't see how a true atheist would make sense. It would be like denying Television exists in the real world.
Everyone can show you a god in D&D and you look crazy denying it.

Amnestic
2011-01-29, 11:03 AM
Seeing as D&D has clerics meet with their gods pretty easy, I don't see how a true atheist would make sense. It would be like denying Television exists in the real world.

There's also a lot of just magic in general. He could be a person who says they're not gods, just very powerful non-deified casters - though that discussion turns into what, philosophically (not mechanically), is the difference between an extremely powerful being and an actual deity.

It's a stretch, and a little odd, but flavourful. I've toyed with the idea of playing an atheist Cleric granted powers by a deity he doesn't even believe in.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-29, 11:15 AM
I can't offer a suggestion better than those already presented. Apologizing for your outburst is a good start, but I think the character, as you want him, is through. Explain your character to your groupmates, and then call out their inability to separate player knowledge from character knowledge.

If they realize the problem, great, try to move forward. If not...well then, I'd say that a new game might be needed, at the very least a new character, and at the further extreme they would need to find another place to play each week.


Seeing as D&D has clerics meet with their gods pretty easy, I don't see how a true atheist would make sense. It would be like denying Television exists in the real world.
Everyone can show you a god in D&D and you look crazy denying it.

Everyone can show you what they claim is a god. What proof can they offer? Magical abilities, even reality warping abilities, don't mean godhood, just powerful magics. Further more there are records of normal people killing gods and becoming gods, which waters the line between "god" and "powerful mage" further.

I can full see being an atheist. Though if you pull that in the Forgotten Realms you'll be screwed when you die. :smallsigh:

Waker
2011-01-29, 11:59 AM
Your solution here is the easy one...don't be so open and honest. Don't tell everyone your alignment. Don't share game information at all.
This won't solve your current situation, but it's one to bear in mind for the future. If I can help it, I wouldn't share my alignment or my class.
As for your current situation, you have a few options.
-Confront the players responsible for metagaming and explain to them how you feel on the topic. I think you said you already did this before (I don't feel like rereading the other topic again.) but if you haven't it's an option. Of course its not necessarily the best option as some people will get defensive and feel you are attacking them when you say they are roleplaying poorly.
-Trash the character. It's annoying, but "A reputation once broken may possibly be repaired, but the world will always keep their eyes on the spot where the crack was." It's highly unlikely that you will ever get the party to fully ignore your evil actions, even though they never saw these evil actions.
-Trudge on. This is a stressful choice, but you could just try and view the abandonment and scorn of your party as character building. Rise above it and endure, make your character a paragon of patience and understanding.

I favor the second choice myself.

Typewriter
2011-01-29, 12:39 PM
I think you just need to discuss it with the other players. Open by apologizing for blowing up at them, then tell them that you feel like your character is being singled out for his alignment rather than his actions. You're not being chaotic stupid, you aren't slaughtering random villagers (or at least, not without a good RP reason - even the heroes sometimes cause casualties) and you've been intentionally holding back from attacking fellow party members even though you actually have a good RP reason for doing so.

And never play an evil character again, unless they seriously mature up. Sounds like your group can't move past the handlebar mustache and tying girls to railroad tracks version of evil, which makes trying to have a deep evil character downright impossible.

I plan on apologizing and explaining everything that's happened up to this point in the campaign. The DM doesn't really want me to do that because it's going to cause them to meta-game further, but not telling them is going to keep them convinced I'm pure evil.


Maybe you should take a look at why you wanted to play an evil character in the first place - because frankly, from your description, it seems like you just wanted to screw with people.

The game is about socializing with friends first, last, and always. By creating an evil character, you have basically put yourself "against" the other players and the GM in the way that isn't conducive to socializing or to having fun. And when that happens, you are the one who comes off as a jerk, not the other players.

If these people are your friends and you want to continue gaming with them, ditch this character and create a new one. If staying "true to character" is more important than getting along with these people, you should probably find a new group, or at least play a different game with them. I hear Settlers of Catan is fun.

I have not once worked against the party though. I've burned down a church that none of them were affiliated with, and refused to give up a powerful artifact that had, up to that point, been the entire focus of our quest.

Everything in your post is exactly what is aggravating me because none of it is true, but everyone is deciding for me it is because that's how they play evil. Who have I screwed with? What have I done that was 'working against the party'?

And to answer your question I wanted to play evil because I only ever get to play about once every year or two. Normally I'm the DM. Playing evil allows a certain type of viewpoint to play that I don't normally play, and I wanted to explore that viewpoint. It has nothing to do with working against the party, or wantonly killing people.

@Starbuck 2

Two things:
1. The only cleric I knew growing up was my friend (party member B), and he was never especially religious. Just a good guy. Then we started traveling, and the party started having dreams. Dreams in which we see the 'gods' and they're just mortals.
2. Why should I believe that clerics are proof that gods exist when, for all intensive purposes, wizards are the same thing. Out of character I know they get their powers from someplace else, but in character? According to the party cleric we're actively working against his 'god' at this point, and yet she still replenishes his spells every day? I've almost got him convinced that there are no gods and that he draws his power from within.

Out of character, denying that there are gods is dumb. Obviously there are. The DM said there are in this world, and you can read about them in the PhB. Using any of that information to determine the existence of god in character? That's meta-gaming.


And to everyone else - yeah the character is pretty much gone for. I'm hoping he dies for his crimes when he goes back to the city because that'll be easier, and as I said it's no longer worth it to continue dealing with the character.

Sarakos
2011-01-29, 01:07 PM
I know a lot of groups ban laptops from the table. However I remeber one pvp game a DM ran where it was Team A vs. Team B. He used facebook to prevent the two teams from metagaming when someone would cast say fog cloud around himself and the fighter wanders in to try and find the wizard while the wizard walks out leaving the fighter lost and confused. This was all handled through notes to the DM over facebook.

Also since our group started playing Pathfinder I bought the PDF rulebooks (being cheaper) and maintain a ln excel character sheet so no one finds it unusual if I start typing or messing with my computer when I send notes to the DM about actions my character would take that I don't want the party to metagame. Thought this might help any of your future characters

Valameer
2011-01-29, 01:16 PM
Take the classic 'evil thief' in the party. Every so often the character will steal from the party..as they are a thief. Good role players just laugh it off. The bad ones...take it personality as if they the player are being attacked.

I disagree. Playing a team-based game like D&D just to have the "evil thief" stereotype undermining the efforts of the party IS incredibly aggravating unless the thief player asked permission from the others before the game started.

I wouldn't call myself a 'bad roleplayer' for being miffed at inter-party conflict started by one player, solely for that player's amusement.

In my experience, the evil thief player is usually a lot less invested in roleplaying, and more interested in random general jerkery at the expense of everyone else's fun.

Which is why you get a lot of knee-jerk reactions the second you put "evil" on your character sheet when everyone else has "good." A lot of us have played with that guy, and it's not something we want to do again.

OP: It sounds like your group is mixing up IC problems and OOC problems, and that always leads to drama. IC, the party *should* have a problem with your character *if* they found out about his burning down a church.

I think the real problem is that they have an OOC problem with you trying to play an evil character. And the trouble is that they are trying to deal with it IC instead of just talking to you OOC "Hey, dude, we're trying to have a co-op game here. Don't play an evil guy, ok? It ruins our fun."

So, here's what you should do: Play a paladin. And do it well. Your friends will have no reason to distrust your new character, and they will learn to trust you again (which they clearly don't). Be the good guy, for the sake of your own mental health, and everyone's fun.

Definitely retire your current character, no matter what the DM says. There's already a huge rift between you and your group. It will only get worse if you stick with this character. You have to try a new direction, or they'll peg you as "that guy who plays characters that burn down churches."

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-29, 02:51 PM
My question is, since the DM seems to be on your side about this, what is he doing to help fix the situation?

Typewriter
2011-01-29, 04:15 PM
My question is, since the DM seems to be on your side about this, what is he doing to help fix the situation?

The player vehemently denies having meta-gamed. He says that "God told him to do it", to which my constant response is "No she didn't".

The DM doesn't agree with him, but it's not like it's really appropriate to dictate a players actions to them, so disagreeing with them is not something he wants to do vocally.

The other option of course, other than he meta-gamed, is that he's just going to be the kind of character who stabs people who don't agree with his views. That sure makes the rest of the campaign sound fun...

ScionoftheVoid
2011-01-29, 04:28 PM
The other option of course, other than he meta-gamed, is that he's just going to be the kind of character who stabs people who don't agree with his views. That sure makes the rest of the campaign sound fun...

I think that you are probably taking the least problematic approach to your problem, and it sucks getting meta-screwed like you have, but I have one thing to add:

If he is the type to stab those who disagree with his views, well, that's disrespecting life, which is Evil with a capital "E". He either falls to Evil himself or has been metagaming just to spoil your fun. Interesting, to say the least. May want to mention this to the DM in advance, no?:smallwink:

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-29, 05:03 PM
The DM doesn't agree with him, but it's not like it's really appropriate to dictate a players actions to them, so disagreeing with them is not something he wants to do vocally.

The DM can still have a discussion with the player about the inappropriateness of his actions without "dictating a player's actions to them." There can be an out-of-game conversation which the DM should be involved in. Tell your DM if he disagrees with something and it's having a negative impact on the game, it's his responsibility as a mediator to vocalize it.

yilduz
2011-01-29, 05:28 PM
An evil PC in a group of metagamers usually doesn't work out. In my first campaign, I didn't really understand the purpose of D&D and figured it was all about slaying anything that moved. My character was wandering through a forest and noticed a guy walking down a path. This guy was supposed to eventually link me to the rest of the group, but I noticed him before he noticed me, and I was a rogue with a shortbow and some magic scrolls. After a couple of arrows to the chest, he still didn't know where I was and I saw what looked like him beginning to cast a spell... so I blew him up with a scroll of Fireball (which I don't think I should have been able to cast. We didn't know scroll rules very well).

Anyway, right after that my DM told me to change my alignment to Chaotic Evil. The rest of the PCs immediately decided they needed to hunt me down and kill me, as though they had some magical link with this person and knew I had just murdered him.

I've played with many different groups, though, and it's hard to find people that actually stay in character and understand how to keep their knowledge separate from their character's knowledge.

Amnestic
2011-01-29, 05:42 PM
I think that you are probably taking the least problematic approach to your problem, and it sucks getting meta-screwed like you have, but I have one thing to add:

If he is the type to stab those who disagree with his views, well, that's disrespecting life, which is Evil with a capital "E". He either falls to Evil himself or has been metagaming just to spoil your fun. Interesting, to say the least. May want to mention this to the DM in advance, no?:smallwink:

Mr. Stabby is Lawful Good as well according to the OP. Stabbing randomly is neither Lawful, nor particularly Good. A Lawful character should probably be thinking about apprehending to turn OP's character over to the authorities/the church for his crime (Was there anyone in the church by the way? There's a difference between (mass) murder and property destruction), not chopping off limbs.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-29, 05:53 PM
An evil PC in a group of metagamers usually doesn't work out.

<snip>

I agree with the first statement, that meta-gamers aren't going to be great to RP evil with, as if they meta-game like that and then deny it, they just aren't very good at RPing. The rest though...you were out murdering random people in a forest, and just happened to kill someone the group knew and liked. Hunting you down at that point isn't meta-gaming at all.

I agree with KillianHawkeye here: What is the DM doing? While he can't tell the players how to manage their characters, he can tell them, without issue, that his god did not tell him of your evil deeds or whatever. That type of thing is purely under the purview of the DM. And this is absolutely the situation where he has the responsibility to call his players to be responsible and respectful gamers to one another. And he has the power, and the responsibility to tell each of his players "You have no way of knowing what Typewriter's character has done. You don't know his alignment, and he has given you no reason to suspect him of being evil. Period."

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-29, 06:02 PM
As one of the guys in my group is fond of saying "You're the DM, control your players!"

Tell your DM to get in control of the situation instead of just watching how it all plays out. I don't mean taking control of peoples' characters. I mean getting people to be civil and rational at the gaming table.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-01-29, 06:06 PM
I agree with the first statement, that meta-gamers aren't going to be great to RP evil with, as if they meta-game like that and then deny it, they just aren't very good at RPing. The rest though...you were out murdering random people in a forest, and just happened to kill someone the group knew and liked. Hunting you down at that point isn't meta-gaming at all.

Except it was never mentioned that they liked or even knew this NPC, nor that they knew of the NPC's death in-character. If they knew all that and liked the NPC, it's fine, but the post implied this was not the case, if only due to the topic.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-29, 06:08 PM
Yeah, your DM needs to actually step up and be a DM. It looks like he's trying to keep hands-off and just be friends with everyone, but his passive non-interference is evidently causing game damage.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-29, 06:15 PM
If I was the DM I would have spoken up.

"God told me that you are an evil church burner! Die!"
"Out of character - actually, no one told you that. You are either metagaming or your character is arbitrarily accusing [OP]'s character of crimes and attacking him for it, which is clearly Chaotic Evil. Would you like to change your action or your character sheet?"

MammonAzrael
2011-01-29, 07:10 PM
Except it was never mentioned that they liked or even knew this NPC, nor that they knew of the NPC's death in-character. If they knew all that and liked the NPC, it's fine, but the post implied this was not the case, if only due to the topic.

Ahh, I missed the magical word "...as though they had..."

So yeah, bad on them.

Greenish
2011-01-29, 07:13 PM
"God told me that you are an evil church burner! Die!"Wasn't the church burned evil?

I mean, "the orphanage attacked me!" is a time-honoured defence for accusations of evilness in such cases.

mootoall
2011-01-29, 07:33 PM
The player vehemently denies having meta-gamed. He says that "God told him to do it", to which my constant response is "No she didn't".

The DM doesn't agree with him, but it's not like it's really appropriate to dictate a players actions to them, so disagreeing with them is not something he wants to do vocally.

The other option of course, other than he meta-gamed, is that he's just going to be the kind of character who stabs people who don't agree with his views. That sure makes the rest of the campaign sound fun...

Yeah, biiiiig problem right here.

Who controls the gods in this game? I'm going to assume the DM. If the DM says the god didn't tell him, the god didn't tell him. Otherwise what stops Mr. Stabby from saying "Oh yeah, my god also gave me a +5 Greatsword of Asskicking, and not to worry, she'll kill the BBEG for us." DM needs to man up here, as well as Mr. Stabs-a-lot.

Typewriter
2011-01-29, 07:58 PM
Believe me, I've said to him several times that his action (if not his alignment) is CE. Completing changing your views on life and assaulting a childhood friend over the course of 12 seconds? Seems a bit drastic.

When I convinced the party cleric to take the orb (artifact) this guy said that his (now devout) character felt horrible for failing to do as the god asked, but that he wouldn't question the party cleric (who has a direct link to said god).

We got back to town and said he was retiring his character to pray for the rest of his life for seeking forgiveness for not stopping us from taking the orb. The DM, in damage control mode, told him that as he prayed he felt a sense of forgiveness, and that he got a feeling that violence was not always the answer. At this point he proclaimed he was going to give up fighting and become a pacifist, so the DM told him, out of character, "Look dude, she's a paladin. She knows that sometimes you have to fight, and you didn't actually disobey her in any way. None of you did. Relax.". So, feeling forgiven, he joined back up with us.


As far as the church goes - no it was not an evil church. At the time I kind of thought it was, but didn't bother to find out. I had simply had visions that led me to believe it was evil and working against us. When I eventually found out, OoC, that it was a good gods church I was pretty relieved that I hadn't found that out before doing it, because then I probably wouldn't have burned it to the ground. To my knowledge only one person was harmed during the burning, and that was a guy who confronted me while I was spreading oil around the back. He got a bunch of oil on him followed by a lantern chucked at him. That being said the party does not know about him (yet they seem to somehow), and I was disguised at the time.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-29, 08:03 PM
We got back to town and said he was retiring his character to pray for the rest of his life for seeking forgiveness for not stopping us from taking the orb. The DM, in damage control mode, told him that as he prayed he felt a sense of forgiveness, and that he got a feeling that violence was not always the answer. At this point he proclaimed he was going to give up fighting and become a pacifist, so the DM told him, out of character, "Look dude, she's a paladin. She knows that sometimes you have to fight, and you didn't actually disobey her in any way. None of you did. Relax.". So, feeling forgiven, he joined back up with us.



So, do you have any actual evidence at all that the DM is on your side here, instead of just playing more damage control by acting like he supports you? It sounds more and more like he's only interested in keeping the group playing together - which while a decent motivation in itself, is falling apart in this case.

Typewriter
2011-01-29, 08:04 PM
If I was the DM I would have spoken up.

"God told me that you are an evil church burner! Die!"
"Out of character - actually, no one told you that. You are either metagaming or your character is arbitrarily accusing [OP]'s character of crimes and attacking him for it, which is clearly Chaotic Evil. Would you like to change your action or your character sheet?"

But that's not even what happened.

We were in a heavenly environment and a glowing blue woman appeared and told us to stop. As I moved past her (after intimidating her), towards the back of heaven(?), she fell to her knees begging the party to "Stop what you're doing. You've been lied to." One of the party members called out to me, "Uhh.... maybe we should listen to her". I said "why", and kept going until I saw the orb. Apparently the goddess who is intimidated by some mortals and begs of boons from other mortals was enough to convince Stabby that when I picked up the orb and put it in a backpack he needed to stab me.

As he approached I warned that I would destroy the orb if he attacked, and he attacked anyway. So, not only did he decide to attack me on behalf the goddess, but he also did so not caring about the item he was now trying to protect.

Yet somehow I feel that if my character sheet had said "Neutral Good" on it, I wouldn't have been stabbed even if I had done the exact same thing....

werik
2011-01-29, 08:06 PM
I'm going to disagree with some advice that has been given regarding hiding information on your character sheet. I think it's unnecessary to hide information on your character sheet from your fellow players, at leas the general information (race, class, alignment, name, etc). I think there is a lot of fun in comparing your characters with each other.

Of course players should keep meta gaming from affecting the game and your DM should be the ultimate enforcer of that. Ultimately, it seems like its your DM's fault that you're in the situation you're in. I would speak with him again and have him explain to the problematic player that having a good alignment doesn't mean that you can't be the one causing the most gaming problems and reinforce this player's responsibilities as a player.

Amnestic
2011-01-29, 08:15 PM
I'm going to disagree with some advice that has been given regarding hiding information on your character sheet. I think it's unnecessary to hide information on your character sheet from your fellow players, at leas the general information (race, class, alignment, name, etc). I think there is a lot of fun in comparing your characters with each other.

In an ideal world, it wouldn't be necessary and I would agree with you, but there's always the twinge of meta-gaming, and in some cases it's preferable to keep some information hidden from your party (though not your DM, otherwise rocks fall, everyone dies) if they seem incapable of stopping themselves. Hell, sometimes it's nice to keep some information from them just for the dramatic reveal.


One of the party members called out to me, "Uhh.... maybe we should listen to her". I said "why"

You needed to check for traps :smalltongue:

Typewriter
2011-01-29, 08:23 PM
So, do you have any actual evidence at all that the DM is on your side here, instead of just playing more damage control by acting like he supports you? It sounds more and more like he's only interested in keeping the group playing together - which while a decent motivation in itself, is falling apart in this case.

I was kind of beginning to wonder that myself in all honesty. I sent him a link to the first thread last week to read over to ask if he thought I had left anything out, and he said "No, well one thing, but I think that's just because you haven't realized it* yet.".

I asked him this week if there was anything I was missing that would make some sense out of what happened, like if the party member had somehow witnessed me doing what I did, and he said "No, there's really no explanation. I have no idea how he got "Stab you" out of what she", the goddess, "said to him".

*In my original post I was incorrect about some things, but it wasn't a falsehood, it was a misdirection by the DM. More below.

So we've deduced that our dreams are our past lives. In my dreams I've been fighting against the 'god' Shael, with the 'god' Sundim on my side. Sundim is one of the super good gods, so this is why I burned down Shaels church. In a recent dream I found out that my side was the bad side, allied with Goblins and the like, and that the other party members were on Shaels side fighting against me. I convinced Sundim to join the good guys, and watched my parties back (in dream) without being seen.

Realizing my mistakes is what made my alignment shift (currently I'm actually sitting at around TN), and is also the reason I'm going back to that town to beg forgiveness.

Immediately after my dream sequence in which I find all this out (they're all done in a separate room) thee other players (not characters) talking about how they've all met up in the dream, and they're waiting for my horribly evil character to assault them. When they said that I looked at the DM and laughed because the fact of the matter was that I was actually trying to defend them in the dream sequence.

I just wish that when their character had problems with mine they would talk to him about it. My character is a pain in the ass to talk to, but he's not a total douchebag either. Instead they sit around talking about how horrible he is, OoC, and letting it affect their IC opinions on him.

Typewriter
2011-01-29, 08:24 PM
You needed to check for traps :smalltongue:

Barbarian/Rogue :P